Israel and Zionism

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Re: Israel and Zionism

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OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm To your point.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... 6d75a40000

Eqypt offer unconditional peace to Israel back in the 1950s and was turned down
You planning on ignoring all the times Israel offered land and peace? It was more than once.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm The opening words to Exodus tgeme song are “this land is mine; God gave this land to me” it is not all about economics it is all about land.
Then why aren't the Palestinians demanding their land back from Jordanians?
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.
Because they got the most votes.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm Saying Hamas is not = to all Palestinians and Bengie is not lthe same as all Israelis is sophistry. It is true but they do not get equal treatment. You find it in the media going back decades.
It's not sophistry. That's who is in charge, my man. But I'm pretty sure there's a whole mess of Israelis who aren't happy with what Netanyahu is doing, and has been doing for years now. Same goes for Palestinians and their views on Hamas.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm Israel is not a democracy. The Israeli government does not want it. Nor do they want equal rights for all citizens. I will have to post on that in a few minutes.
Why? You asked us question: why is that?

You know perfectly well why. Have a look at how many Jewish people live in "Democratic Egypt".....while at one time, there were thousands living there.

Or Syria. Or Lebanon. Or, or or...... That's what it looks like for Jewish people in a Muslim majority country.

Why do these nations get to keep all Jewish people out by treating them horribly and denying them rights....yet at the same time, folks DEMAND that Israelis take a higher road?

My question to you is: why are the Israelis the ONLY people in this region that have to operate in a full democracy that treats everyone the same?

Muslims can vote in Israel. Muslims can, and do, hold political office. It ain't perfect....but it's a heckuva lot better than how Jewish people are treated in surrounding countries...why do those countries get a pass for their behavior, and Israel doesn't?
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by jhu72 »

a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:41 pm
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm To your point.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... 6d75a40000

Eqypt offer unconditional peace to Israel back in the 1950s and was turned down
You planning on ignoring all the times Israel offered land and peace? It was more than once.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm The opening words to Exodus tgeme song are “this land is mine; God gave this land to me” it is not all about economics it is all about land.
Then why aren't the Palestinians demanding their land back from Jordanians?
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.
Because they got the most votes.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm Saying Hamas is not = to all Palestinians and Bengie is not lthe same as all Israelis is sophistry. It is true but they do not get equal treatment. You find it in the media going back decades.
It's not sophistry. That's who is in charge, my man. But I'm pretty sure there's a whole mess of Israelis who aren't happy with what Netanyahu is doing, and has been doing for years now. Same goes for Palestinians and their views on Hamas.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm Israel is not a democracy. The Israeli government does not want it. Nor do they want equal rights for all citizens. I will have to post on that in a few minutes.
Why? You asked us question: why is that?

You know perfectly well why. Have a look at how many Jewish people live in "Democratic Egypt".....while at one time, there were thousands living there.

Or Syria. Or Lebanon. Or, or or...... That's what it looks like for Jewish people in a Muslim majority country.

Why do these nations get to keep all Jewish people out by treating them horribly and denying them rights....yet at the same time, folks DEMAND that Israelis take a higher road?

My question to you is: why are the Israelis the ONLY people in this region that have to operate in a full democracy that treats everyone the same?

Muslims can vote in Israel. Muslims can, and do, hold political office. It ain't perfect....but it's a heckuva lot better than how Jewish people are treated in surrounding countries...why do those countries get a pass for their behavior, and Israel doesn't?
... Israel claims to be a western democracy. They are claimed to be this by the western democracies. Should this allow them to kill 23,000 Muslims, 70% women and children without a word? (Gaza Health Ministry numbers.) Israel is currently being treated with kid gloves by western governments -- being given a pass.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Where was international law when millions of my people, my ancestors, were being stuffed into cattle cars to be worked to death, gassed to death and then burned? Where were the open borders when my people were trying to flee Europe? The United States stuck to their immigration quotas (and I'm sure they weren't the only country) and refused to make exceptions though it was clear that a Jew hating maniac was on the rise in Europe. Where were the open arms of compassion after the Holocaust when no one wanted to take my ancestors in? To offer food and clothing and comfort and welcome back to their former homes and neighborhoods in Europe. Yeah—right. NO ONE wanted the Jewish people to settle in their country after the Holocaust. Displaced Person camps hedged in with the all too familiar barbed wire were the best any one would offer my poor ravaged desolated people. Others who tried to land back in their ancient Homeland were intercepted and dumped on an island in the Mediterranean--sweltering and festering in squalor on Cyprus. Double standards when it comes to the Jewish people and the land of Israel.

I don't care how many documents are produced to show that Israel has made bad decisions, has and has had corrupt leaders, doesn't treat people who want them all dead with common decency. The Jewish people have a right to a Homeland where they can exist without being terrorized and persecuted and exterminated. I notice nobody who is always criticizing Israel and how they go about their business ever talks about or produces links to documents proving that the Jewish people were fine with the initial resolution in the middle of the 20th century--to share land with their Arab neighbors. Or that Arab leaders wanted nothing to do with that. They swore that if Israel declared sovereignty they would attack, which they did. Five nations attacked Israel (One day? Two days?) after they announced Statehood. Where was the UN?

The Jewish people--especially in the aftermath of the Holocaust--deserve to have a Homeland. President Truman had it right. And they have the right to defend themselves.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:35 pm ... Israel claims to be a western democracy. They are claimed to be this by the western democracies. Should this allow them to kill 23,000 Muslims, 70% women and children without a word?
Where did I say that's ok with me? It's not. Not even close. Neither are the settlements, or the way Gaza has been handled. I have said all along that the only solution I know of is: make Gaza an economic power.

That said: where are the complaints to Hamas? They're getting a full pass with the excuse "well, Hamas doesn't represent all the Palestinians".

Yeah. Same goes for the Israelis.....

And where are the demands of the return of hostages? Have we forgotten they're still there?
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:35 pm (Gaza Health Ministry numbers.) Israel is currently being treated with kid gloves by western governments -- being given a pass.
Why do you think that is? What did Western powers do when terrorists hit them? Iraq, Afghanistan, operations in Syria...unmanned drones....

How many women and children have we (the US) killed in the last 20 years, JHU72? Wanna bet it's more than 23,000?

I don't condone ANY of this as you perfectly well know...but it's a bit rich for Americans to throw stones at the Israelis on this point. We have no standing to complain.

Two words: unmanned drones.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

ONW, I didn't want to copy your righteously intended, but nevertheless angry screed above, but I hear you and agree about the Jewish people's right to a homeland in which they are free to live in peace and to defend as needs be without reliance on a 'host country'. The history of such reliance is terrible.

That does not, however, IMO, justify brutalities to others which could be avoided.

Nor does it mean that decisions made don't have repercussions, including to Israel. They do.

You are correct that there are anti-semites who would not support Israel's right to existence no matter what decisions Israel makes, but few of those commenting here who are critical of the current Israeli government are anti-semitic, nor anti-zionist. A couple...but most of those commenting, including critically, actually want Israel to exist and prosper in peace, as a Jewish homeland.

And Israel would not have been created as such a homeland, nor supported as such for so many decades, if there were not lots of non Jews who have helped. But continued support is not guaranteed if Israelis decide to commit mass atrocities which are not necessary for self-defense in the eyes of otherwise supporters.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.
... Israel is not a democracy. The Israeli government does not want it. Nor do they want equal rights for all citizens...
OCanada, no one is answering because it's not a real question. It's a rhetorical question that you want to answer. Why be combative? The vast majority of people within the thread are having a relatively sane discussion.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Kismet wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:06 pm "The International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) has barred Israel from competing in its world championship events over security concerns...
Wow. That's pretty sad. Can you imagine if the US or Australia or England or etc. did the same for the lacrosse championships? I guess I understand but... This isn't small...
Last edited by Matnum PI on Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:57 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:35 pm ... Israel claims to be a western democracy. They are claimed to be this by the western democracies. Should this allow them to kill 23,000 Muslims, 70% women and children without a word?
Where did I say that's ok with me? It's not. Not even close. Neither are the settlements, or the way Gaza has been handled. I have said all along that the only solution I know of is: make Gaza an economic power.

That said: where are the complaints to Hamas? They're getting a full pass with the excuse "well, Hamas doesn't represent all the Palestinians".

Yeah. Same goes for the Israelis.....

And where are the demands of the return of hostages? Have we forgotten they're still there?
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:35 pm (Gaza Health Ministry numbers.) Israel is currently being treated with kid gloves by western governments -- being given a pass.
Why do you think that is? What did Western powers do when terrorists hit them? Iraq, Afghanistan, operations in Syria...unmanned drones....

How many women and children have we (the US) killed in the last 20 years, JHU72? Wanna bet it's more than 23,000?

I don't condone ANY of this as you perfectly well know...but it's a bit rich for Americans to throw stones at the Israelis on this point. We have no standing to complain.

Two words: unmanned drones.

.... no question WE give ourselves (US and allies) a pass very frequently as well. Actually we as individuals have every right to throw stones and register our complaint about what Israel is doing and what WE the US have done as well as our complicity now. In fact it is the only way things will get better. The world standing up and saying enough. There is currently no point to the massacre of Gazans. It makes Israel no more secure, only less secure.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:51 pm International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.
There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:10 pm There is currently no point to the massacre of Gazans. It makes Israel no more secure, only less secure.
If that was all they were doing, I'd agree with you. But they're doing more than this. They're destroying infrastructure, killing Hamas members...
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:13 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:10 pm There is currently no point to the massacre of Gazans. It makes Israel no more secure, only less secure.
If that was all they were doing, I'd agree with you. But they're doing more than this. They're destroying infrastructure, killing Hamas members...
... at what rate, how many for how many? How many more Gazans need to die? How many of these are actually Hamas fighters? I remain skeptical.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:24 pm... at what rate, how many for how many? How many more Gazans need to die? How many of these are actually Hamas fighters? I remain skeptical.
Skeptical or not, Israel is and has been in an impossible situation for a very long time. Hamas builds military tunnels directly below the civilian population, a similar strategy to what Hamas has been doing for a very long time, and... An impossible situation.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:10 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:57 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:35 pm ... Israel claims to be a western democracy. They are claimed to be this by the western democracies. Should this allow them to kill 23,000 Muslims, 70% women and children without a word?
Where did I say that's ok with me? It's not. Not even close. Neither are the settlements, or the way Gaza has been handled. I have said all along that the only solution I know of is: make Gaza an economic power.

That said: where are the complaints to Hamas? They're getting a full pass with the excuse "well, Hamas doesn't represent all the Palestinians".

Yeah. Same goes for the Israelis.....

And where are the demands of the return of hostages? Have we forgotten they're still there?
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 3:35 pm (Gaza Health Ministry numbers.) Israel is currently being treated with kid gloves by western governments -- being given a pass.
Why do you think that is? What did Western powers do when terrorists hit them? Iraq, Afghanistan, operations in Syria...unmanned drones....

How many women and children have we (the US) killed in the last 20 years, JHU72? Wanna bet it's more than 23,000?

I don't condone ANY of this as you perfectly well know...but it's a bit rich for Americans to throw stones at the Israelis on this point. We have no standing to complain.

Two words: unmanned drones.

.... no question WE give ourselves (US and allies) a pass very frequently as well. Actually we as individuals have every right to throw stones and register our complaint about what Israel is doing and what WE the US have done as well as our complicity now. In fact it is the only way things will get better. The world standing up and saying enough. There is currently no point to the massacre of Gazans. It makes Israel no more secure, only less secure.
America was given the same argument---from yours truly and others------ about our forays into the Middle East making us less safe. Remember Freedom Fries?

We did it anyway, and ignored them.

Hamas still has hostages, JHU. So long as the Hamas holds them, and the world ignores this fact.....Israel ain't listening to anyone.

Have to say that I don't blame them for not listening (not for the violence, but the not listening part)......no one seems to care about these hostages.
And no, I'm not at all happy with Israel's scorched-Earth approach.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

Baducchi wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:10 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 4:51 pm International law, my ass... So much (hypocritical) compassion—for everyone but the Jews and Israel.
There was the "Jewish Problem" for over two thousand years. What to do with the Jews? So Hitler and his regime came up with a solution, a final solution. This solution obviously wasn't perfect, especially for the Jews. But, at the time, as you're speaking to, this solution was far from outrageous. It was only after the fact when the world saw what this solution actually looked like up close and personal did people people flinch. Then, post WWII, the Jews come up with their own Final Solution. And, though the world consensus may not like this solution, allowing the Jews to have a homeland and the ability to defend themselves only makes sense. OuttaNowhere, you're not wrong. At all.
Thank you, sir.

And it bears re-quoting:

“It doesn’t matter what the world says. It doesn’t matter what they say about Israel anywhere else. The only thing that matters is that we can exist here. Unless it’s clear that there is a price to pay for Jewish lives, we will not be able to survive."

--David Ben-Gurion to Ariel Sharon (circa 1948)
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.
Because Hamas promised peace & no corruption. ...then never held another election.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:24 pm
Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:13 pm
jhu72 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 6:10 pm There is currently no point to the massacre of Gazans. It makes Israel no more secure, only less secure.
If that was all they were doing, I'd agree with you. But they're doing more than this. They're destroying infrastructure, killing Hamas members...
... at what rate, how many for how many? How many more Gazans need to die? How many of these are actually Hamas fighters? I remain skeptical.
Then why are so many of these Palestinians covering the atrocities by their own people? Why is Hamas using the complacent acceptance of so many Palestinians?? Why are the Hamas terrorists hiding under the skirts of the Palestinian people?
I use to be a people person until people ruined that for me.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 2:41 pm
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm To your point.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... 6d75a40000

Eqypt offer unconditional peace to Israel back in the 1950s and was turned down
You planning on ignoring all the times Israel offered land and peace? It was more than once.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm The opening words to Exodus tgeme song are “this land is mine; God gave this land to me” it is not all about economics it is all about land.
Then why aren't the Palestinians demanding their land back from Jordanians?
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.
Because they got the most votes.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm Saying Hamas is not = to all Palestinians and Bengie is not lthe same as all Israelis is sophistry. It is true but they do not get equal treatment. You find it in the media going back decades.
It's not sophistry. That's who is in charge, my man. But I'm pretty sure there's a whole mess of Israelis who aren't happy with what Netanyahu is doing, and has been doing for years now. Same goes for Palestinians and their views on Hamas.
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm Israel is not a democracy. The Israeli government does not want it. Nor do they want equal rights for all citizens. I will have to post on that in a few minutes.
Why? You asked us question: why is that?

You know perfectly well why. Have a look at how many Jewish people live in "Democratic Egypt".....while at one time, there were thousands living there.

Or Syria. Or Lebanon. Or, or or...... That's what it looks like for Jewish people in a Muslim majority country.

Why do these nations get to keep all Jewish people out by treating them horribly and denying them rights....yet at the same time, folks DEMAND that Israelis take a higher road?

My question to you is: why are the Israelis the ONLY people in this region that have to operate in a full democracy that treats everyone the same?

Muslims can vote in Israel. Muslims can, and do, hold political office. It ain't perfect....but it's a heckuva lot better than how Jewish people are treated in surrounding countries...why do those countries get a pass for their behavior, and Israel doesn't?
Apples to apples son.

So many deflections. Jordan is not supposed to be the homeland Israel is. You shoukd try reading and retaining instead of ducking and covering.

You continue to ignore history. Israel was at origin dupposed to be a democracy with equsl rights and protections. That has never been extant. Again ignoring history.

Rebecca of Sunnybrook farm cones to mind. Muslims do not have equal standing under the laws in Israel. You would know that is you bothered to read or read and retained, Your muslim comment reminds me of the “some of my best frirnds are black” in this country, study up.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

old salt wrote: Fri Jan 12, 2024 5:27 am
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.
Because Hamas promised peace & no corruption. ...then never held another election.
They delivered neither. But they won bcs the corruption of the in power party was appalling. The voters were past tired of it. They earned their loss. As you pointed out Hamas then betrayed their voters
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 5:55 pm
OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:08 pm I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.
... Israel is not a democracy. The Israeli government does not want it. Nor do they want equal rights for all citizens...
OCanada, no one is answering because it's not a real question. It's a rhetorical question that you want to answer. Why be combative? The vast majority of people within the thread are having a relatively sane discussion.
My interpretation is quite different. It is a question probing knowledge. It seems to me the question is real and no answer was provided bcs the knowledge was not there. There seems to be an accepted narrative which when an alternative is offered has difficulty with the dissonance after years of not being exposed to the reality of life there
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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Link follows:

More thinking outside the process that has been so unfruitful


A Different Two-State Solution

Photo: AHMAD GHARABLI/AFP/Getty Images
Photo: AHMAD GHARABLI/AFP/Getty Images

Commentary by Jon B. Alterman
Published January 10, 2024
With violence between Palestinians and Israelis at its highest levels in decades, voices again have risen in favor of a two-state solution. The idea—a Jewish homeland and an Arab one carved out of Mandatory Palestine—dates back to the United Nation’s 1947 partition plan, but it has seemed increasingly remote. In the weeks before October 7, the growing consensus was that the window for a two-state solution had closed. The current violence has persuaded many that the idea needs to be revived.
Indeed it does, but doing so will require the redefinition of some terms—for starters, “two,” and “state,” and “solution.”
Two
Let’s start with “two.” Seventy-five years of history have intertwined the fates of Arabs and Jews far more than had ever been contemplated. Not only has Jewish settlement extended deep into formerly Arab areas, but the 20 percent of Israeli citizens who are non-Jewish Arabs have come to think of their Palestinian-ness (and Israeli-ness) in complex and connected ways. Resources, not least water, are inextricably linked, but even things as mundane as wireless spectrum are completely intertwined. Israelis may fantasize about a divorce from Palestinians, but their actions for three-quarters of a century have made that increasingly impossible.
Palestinians have been enveloped in that process, too. The Palestinian economy has become deeply integrated with the Israeli economy, even as permission to work in Israel is unreliable. Just last summer, Israel was the destination for 90 percent of Palestinian exports and the source of 58 percent of its imports. While Palestine certainly needs a more diversified economy and set of trade ties, building it all from scratch without taking advantage of Israeli infrastructure and ports, not to mention the technical skills for things like managing the money supply and credit markets, will make the task infinitely harder.
Each side has ample evidence from the past 30 years of how hard arm’s length cooperation is. Palestinians note that not only have Israeli security forces continually burst into areas of supposed Palestinian self-rule, but also that they have been lax on vigilante settlers who seek to be a law unto themselves. Not unreasonably, they see Israeli businesspeople taking advantage of Palestine as a captive market to their own advantage and at the expense of Palestinian interests.
Israelis have complained that Palestinian security cooperation has always been grudging and incomplete, and they blame poor Palestinian economic performance on corruption and incompetence rather than Israeli exploitation.
Rather than more separation, however, the antidote to these complaints is greater integration, albeit with outside enforcement. A multinational endeavor with Israelis and Palestinians at its core, with the active participation of Americans, Europeans, regional governments, and others, will be awkward at first. But giving Palestinians and Israelis greater visibility into each other’s actions will give greater confidence. Equally important will be noting when cooperation is not forthcoming, also giving greater confidence that agreements cannot be ignored without consequence.
State
This is where “state” needs to be redefined. What will emerge is something less than a Westphalian state with complete control over what happens within its borders, and not just for Palestinians. Israel will also need to open its decisionmaking to justify some of its actions to others, and to consider the broader implications of actions it principally targets at its own citizens. The European Union has shown much of this is possible, but what will be required here will be more intrusive and less consensual.
Solution
All of this will be messy, which brings us to the last problem in this trilogy: the “solution.” One might object that what is described here is not a solution at all, because it will require sustained engagement and struggle from two parties who were largely estranged before the massacres of October 7, and are even more estranged in their aftermath.
Adding to the challenge, each side is convinced that sizeable constituencies on the other side ultimately seek domination and not coexistence. While this reality cannot be willed away, much less ignored, one thing is especially encouraging. That is, through more than three decades of polling, it is clear how dynamic the support for coexistence has been, and therefore how dynamic the support can be. It responds to conditions, and it responds to actions. There is little question that, right now, it is close to bottom, and there is tremendous upward potential.
A strategy of this sort will be unacceptable to both sides, at least initially. It is not what they have been fighting for over the last 75 years, and it feels inadequate. Even so, it gives us a new construct to work from, and a new construct is necessary. For decades, most of Israel’s peace negotiations were built around the idea of “land for peace.” But what was successful with Egypt did not work with Syria, and it certainly did not work with Palestine. Israel has both political and security reasons to move away from that formula. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is determined to preserve Israeli communities scattered throughout historic Judea and Samaria, in areas designated for a future Palestinian state. He speaks derisively of the potential emergence of “Hamastan” and “Fatahstan” on Israel’s borders, and he vows to block it. On these issues, there is a fair amount of Israeli unity.
And at the same time, Palestinians look at the fragmented ink blots of “Area A” on the West Bank, supposedly under full Palestinian control yet largely at the mercy of Israeli decisions. Palestinians have come to regard the Oslo agreement of 1994 as a ruse that left them powerless, dominated, and immiserated. Israel’s cordon around Gaza, and its actions over the last three months inside of it, reinforces Palestinians’ despair.
Rethinking the terms of what a two-state solution might look like will not be satisfying. Each side feels it gave the other a chance through the Oslo Accords, only to see the depth of its adversary’s hostility. Events of the last three months have convinced even more that the other side has no respect for human life. This is no basis on which to build a partnership.
But the two sides surely have shared interests, not least the desire to create a future of greater security, prosperity, and freedom for their children. Seventy-five years of fighting has not gotten either side what it wanted. Thinking through ways to enlarge definitions and introduce outside monitors will not end conflict, but it could go a long way to end bloodshed.
Jon B. Alterman is a senior vice president, holds the Zbigniew Brzezinski Chair in Global Security and Geostrategy, and is director of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C.

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https://www.csis.org/analysis/different ... e-solution
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