Israel and Zionism

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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by a fan »

kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Only way to do it is to put UN Troops in charge of Gaza.

Otherwise, all the funding that gets sent in will be taken by corrupt Hamas leaders who don't give a sH(t about anything but themselves.

You have to run Gaza like Hamas does: at the point of a gun. Turn it into an economic powerhouse, and Hamas will lose their power. Most people want to live a good, peaceful life with a good job. Give them that, and this mess goes away.

Won't happen.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am Interested to hear your take on it, but I feel like the Marshall Plan worked largely in part because Germany and Europe wanted to be rebuilt. And the threat of Russia was a strong encouragement for Europe to buy in. Russian treatment of people in Germany and every other country during the war gave them an ideo of what to expect given the alternative, and made US influence welcome.

I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Yes, a hard sell if solely 'western', much less US.
It would need Arab support and significant hand in the actual management.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:59 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Only way to do it is to put UN Troops in charge of Gaza.

Otherwise, all the funding that gets sent in will be taken by corrupt Hamas leaders who don't give a sH(t about anything but themselves.

You have to run Gaza like Hamas does: at the point of a gun. Turn it into an economic powerhouse, and Hamas will lose their power. Most people want to live a good, peaceful life with a good job. Give them that, and this mess goes away.

Won't happen.
I can think of lots of reasons why that might not happen, but why the certainty?

Seems to me that the situation cries out for international management, as you describe. And the situation has gotten so awful that such becomes possible.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:38 am
Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:32 am I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.
Absolutely, positively 100%. How come Israel is the only nation who is expected to conduct themselves according to a ridiculously unrealistic high standard? An appropriate line occurs to me from the movie Spotlight, (and I'm glad this is Israel's mindset toward what the rest of the world expects them to do): "I think we're going to have to ignore everyone on this." When it comes to Israel's safety and survival--AMEN.
Intenstionsl law, the founding documents etc. i do not understand why some have difficulty understanding the underlying reaon why israel is currentky doing what it is doing

Bengie directed money to Hamas in the past.

Hamas won an election. Why did it win the election?

Hamas is not the same as the population of Gaza.

BTW. It was Bengie who undercut the Oslo accords. See below:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -palestine
Last edited by OCanada on Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by a fan »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:05 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:59 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Only way to do it is to put UN Troops in charge of Gaza.

Otherwise, all the funding that gets sent in will be taken by corrupt Hamas leaders who don't give a sH(t about anything but themselves.

You have to run Gaza like Hamas does: at the point of a gun. Turn it into an economic powerhouse, and Hamas will lose their power. Most people want to live a good, peaceful life with a good job. Give them that, and this mess goes away.

Won't happen.
I can think of lots of reasons why that might not happen, but why the certainty?

Seems to me that the situation cries out for international management, as you describe. And the situation has gotten so awful that such becomes possible.
The certainty comes from: this conflict is 80 years old, and the UN hasn't stepped in yet.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by kramerica.inc »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:01 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am Interested to hear your take on it, but I feel like the Marshall Plan worked largely in part because Germany and Europe wanted to be rebuilt. And the threat of Russia was a strong encouragement for Europe to buy in. Russian treatment of people in Germany and every other country during the war gave them an ideo of what to expect given the alternative, and made US influence welcome.

I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Yes, a hard sell if solely 'western', much less US.
It would need Arab support and significant hand in the actual management.
The problem (has always been) Western states finding real partners in the Arab world. FOrget the past 80 years. Go back even further. It's an "us vs them" mindset on both sides and has been for millennia. Tough to figure out.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by a fan »

OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:22 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 10:38 am
Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:32 am I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.
Absolutely, positively 100%. How come Israel is the only nation who is expected to conduct themselves according to a ridiculously unrealistic high standard? An appropriate line occurs to me from the movie Spotlight, (and I'm glad this is Israel's mindset toward what the rest of the world expects them to do): "I think we're going to have to ignore everyone on this." When it comes to Israel's safety and survival--AMEN.
Intenstionsl law, the founding documents etc. i do not understand why some have difficulty understanding the underlying reaon why israel is currentky doing what it is doing

Bengie directed money to Hamas in the past.

Hamas won an election. Why did it win the election?

Hamas is not the same as the population of Gaza.
That's like saying the population of Israel isn't the same as Netanyahu.

Both statements are true....but irrelevant to the conflict. So long as Netanyahu and Hamas are in charge, this mess is going to get worse.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by a fan »

kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:27 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:01 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am Interested to hear your take on it, but I feel like the Marshall Plan worked largely in part because Germany and Europe wanted to be rebuilt. And the threat of Russia was a strong encouragement for Europe to buy in. Russian treatment of people in Germany and every other country during the war gave them an ideo of what to expect given the alternative, and made US influence welcome.

I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Yes, a hard sell if solely 'western', much less US.
It would need Arab support and significant hand in the actual management.
The problem (has always been) Western states finding real partners in the Arab world. FOrget the past 80 years. Go back even further. It's an "us vs them" mindset on both sides and has been for millennia. Tough to figure out.
Egypt managed peace with Israel.

In the end, this is about economics. Fix that, and the problem goes away over time.

Look at Israel: they have Muslim judges. How is that possible? Easy, economics are good there, so the resentment about who owns what goes away.

Hamas knows perfectly well that they stay in power if the lives of Palestinians are miserable. It's a simple and horrible game.

It's why their leaders are hangin' in Qatar, sucking down Gin and Tonics.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by kramerica.inc »

a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:31 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:27 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:01 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am Interested to hear your take on it, but I feel like the Marshall Plan worked largely in part because Germany and Europe wanted to be rebuilt. And the threat of Russia was a strong encouragement for Europe to buy in. Russian treatment of people in Germany and every other country during the war gave them an ideo of what to expect given the alternative, and made US influence welcome.

I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Yes, a hard sell if solely 'western', much less US.
It would need Arab support and significant hand in the actual management.
The problem (has always been) Western states finding real partners in the Arab world. FOrget the past 80 years. Go back even further. It's an "us vs them" mindset on both sides and has been for millennia. Tough to figure out.
Egypt managed peace with Israel.

In the end, this is about economics. Fix that, and the problem goes away over time.

Look at Israel: they have Muslim judges. How is that possible? Easy, economics are good there, so the resentment about who owns what goes away.

Hamas knows perfectly well that they stay in power if the lives of Palestinians are miserable. It's a simple and horrible game.

It's why their leaders are hangin' in Qatar, sucking down Gin and Tonics.
Good points, and I agree.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by PizzaSnake »

Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:32 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 7:33 am How about Israel do those things? Hmm?
I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.
Geneva Conventions of 1949
Article 33
No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/file ... 2-0173.pdf

Fact: Israel is waging war in Gaza.
Fact: Not all residents of Gaza are members of Hamas.
Fact: An incredible number of dead and wounded in Gaza are "protected persons" per the GC (above).

I would describe what is going on in Gaza as collective punishment. Or is it your contention that all residents of Gaza are responsible for the actions of Hamas, which were indisputably barbaric and unacceptable? If so, is this some sort of "original sin" that conveys to those born after the last elections in Gaza? Pretty peculiar, but if that is your position, please acknowledge. Otherwise, explain how the casualties in Gaza are in any way, shape or form acceptable? Proportionality? If so, explain the math, please.

As I said at the outset (October 8), I deplore Hamas and their actions, but I will do the same for Israel if they violate human rights and international norms re treatment of non-combatants. I predicted a severe reaction by Israel, and they have vindicated my fears.

And here we are. Aside from the recklessness and indiscriminate nature of the Israeli response, I ask again: "what benefits inure to the US and its citizens for the slavish support and adherence to the Israeli position?"

A little hypothetical: what actions would be deserving of criticism and change in support? Are there any things the Israelis could not do in their prosecution of this campaign that wouldn't require a re-evaluation of US support?

I don't do "blank checks."
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Matnum PI »

Saying Israel's response is disproportionate is very different from what I was asking you about originally. “Israeli officials... have blamed the United Nations, saying it should find more staff, extend workers’ hours and deploy more trucks to distribute the aid.” Again, why should Israel be responsible for providing aid to the Gazans?
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

To your point.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/202 ... 6d75a40000

Eqypt offer unconditional peace to Israel back in the 1950s and was turned down

The opening words to Exodus tgeme song are “this land is mine; God gave this land to me” it is not all about economics it is all about land. Not unlike the US where economics has not worked in providing solutions for natives.

I asked before why Hamas won its election. Still waiting.

Saying Hamas is not = to all Palestinians and Bengie is not lthe same as all Israelis is sophistry. It is true but they do not get equal treatment. You find it in the media going back decades.

Israel is not a democracy. The Israeli government does not want it. Nor do they want equal rights for all citizens. I will have to post on that in a few minutes.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:06 pm Saying Israel's response is disproportionate is very different from what I was asking you about originally. “Israeli officials... have blamed the United Nations, saying it should find more staff, extend workers’ hours and deploy more trucks to distribute the aid.” Again, why should Israel be responsible for providing aid to the Gazans?
Seems disingenious given Israel has routinely violated international law and hidden behind US vetos to protect it. Israel has denied having nukes even though they do, since inception and has refused to sign the nuclear non-proliferation pact. PR. They do it bettrr than anyone. The last thing they wantvis the UN in their business.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by PizzaSnake »

Matnum PI wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:06 pm Saying Israel's response is disproportionate is very different from what I was asking you about originally. “Israeli officials... have blamed the United Nations, saying it should find more staff, extend workers’ hours and deploy more trucks to distribute the aid.” Again, why should Israel be responsible for providing aid to the Gazans?
Because they control ingress of relief. If you choke it off, then it is up to you to manage distribution. Do I need to quote more of the Geneva Conventions?

My original comment, if rhetorically hyperbolic, as I am wont to do, is that it is a bit much for the Israelis to fault others, in this case, the UN, for delays in provision of relief when they, the Israelis, control the flow. Is that clear enough?
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

The text. Link to follow

In 1948, the Syrian historian Constantin Zurayk used the Arabic word Nakba (Catastrophe) to refer to the forced removal of Palestinians from their lands and homes by the newly formed Israeli state (in his August 1948 book, Ma’na al-Nakba or The Meaning of the Nakba). A decade ago, in Beirut, I met with the Lebanese novelist Elias Khoury—then editor of the Arabic-language Journal of Palestinian Studies, who told me that the Nakba of 1948 was not an event but part of a process. “What we have is a Permanent Nakba, which means that this catastrophe has been continuous for the Palestinians,” he said. Since 1948, Palestinian political movements and intellectuals have argued that the logic of the Israeli state has been to expel the Palestinians from the region between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. This policy of expulsion to create an ethno-religious Jewish State of Israel is what Khoury meant by the Permanent Nakba.

On November 11, 2023, Israel’s Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter said something startling to the press. “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” he said. “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end,” said this former director of Israel’s internal security service Shin Bet. In the first week of November, Israel’s Heritage Minister Amihai Eliyahu was on Radio Kol BaRama, whose interviewer ruminated about dropping “some kind of nuclear bomb on all of Gaza, flattening them, eliminating everybody there.” Eliyahu replied, “That’s one way. The second way is to work out what’s important to them, what scares them, what deters them… They’re not scared of death.” Israel, the minister said, should retake all of Gaza. What about the Palestinians? “They can go to Ireland or deserts,” he said. “The monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.” This language of annihilation and dehumanization has become normal among the cabinet of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu suspended Eliyahu from his cabinet, but he did not rebuke his Defense Minister Yoav Gallant who called Palestinians “human animals.” This is the broad attitude of the Israeli high officials, who are now on record with this kind of language.

Israel’s army has advanced its execution of the “Gaza Nakba.” In the early stage of the attack, Israel told Palestinian civilians to move south within the Strip, along Salah al-Din Road, the north-south axis in this 40-kilometer-long area of Palestine that holds 2.3 million Palestinians. The Israelis said that they would largely attack northern Gaza, particularly Gaza City. Around 1.5 million Palestinians moved from the northern part of Gaza to the south, the Israelis having told them repeatedly that this would be a safe zone. Those who stayed experienced a level of bombardment not seen in Gaza in the past, which has been pummeled by the Israelis on a punctual basis since 2006 (the current war including deadly air strikes against highly congested refugee camps, such as Jabalia). In late November, five weeks into their brutal bombing in the north, Israel aircraft intensified the bombing of Gaza’s second-largest city, Khan Younis, and began ground operations in the areas where they had told civilians to take shelter. By the first week of December, Israeli tanks surrounded Khan Younis, and Israeli aircraft began to bomb small towns in the southern part of Gaza. Having pushed 1.8 Palestinians into the south, the Israelis now began to bomb that part of Gaza. Meanwhile, Israel’s refusal to allow sufficient humanitarian aid to enter Gaza meant that nine out of 10 Palestinians are living without food for days on end (some told the UN World Food Program that they had not eaten in 10 days). This total war by Israel has pushed the majority of Palestinians in Gaza down toward the Egyptian border. Under cover of this war, the Israelis have also moved aggressively into the West Bank to deepen the Permanent Nakba in that part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

As early as October 18, long before the Israeli forces moved toward Khan Younis, the Israel military tweeted that it “orders Gaza residents to move to the humanitarian zone in the area of al-Mawasi.” Three days later, the Israeli military said that the Palestinians must move “south of Wadi Gaza” and go to the “humanitarian area in Mawasi.” Those who went to this small enclave (3.3 square miles) found it without any services—including no internet—and found that even here the Israelis were firing their weapons nearby. Mohammed Ghanem, who had lived near al-Shifa Hospital in northern Gaza, said that al-Mawasi was “neither humane nor safe.” Palestinians in southern Gaza now hope that they can get out before the Israeli bombs find them. The death toll is now in excess of 18,000 dead. As one Palestinian friend wrote in a text, “If we do not leave our homes and go into exile, we will get killed here.” He sent this text just when confirmation arrived that more Palestinians have been pushed out of their homes and killed since October 7 than in the Nakba of 1948. “This is the Second Nakba,” he said to me from near the border between Gaza and Egypt.

A Vote for Annihilation

The ghastly Israeli attack on the Palestinians of Gaza provoked a call for a ceasefire from the second week of October. Israel’s immense firepower—provided by Western countries (especially the United Kingdom and the United States)—was used indiscriminately against a people who live in congested areas of Gaza. Images of that violence flooded social media and even the broadcast news, which could not ignore what was happening. These images overcame all the attempts by the Israeli government and its Western backers to justify their actions. Tens of millions of people joined various forms of protests across the world, but significantly in the Western states that back Israel, bravely confronting governments that tried to portray their solidarity with the Palestinians—unsuccessfully—as antisemitism. This attack was a cynical attempt to use the actual and horrible existence of antisemitism to malign the protests. It did not work. The call for a full-scale ceasefire increased, putting pressure on governments around the world to act.

On December 8, 2023, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) put a “brief, simple, and crucial” resolution for a ceasefire (the words are from UAE ambassador to the UN Mohamed Issa Abushahab). UN Secretary-General António Guterres invoked Article 99 of the Charter, which allows him to underscore the importance of an event through “preventative diplomacy” (the article has only been used three times previously, over the conflicts in the Republic of Congo in 1960, Iran in 1979, and Lebanon in 1989). Almost a hundred member states of the UN backed the UAE resolution. “The people of Gaza are being told to move like human pinballs—ricocheting between ever-smaller slivers of the south, without any of the basics for survival,” Guterres told the UN Security Council. “Nowhere in Gaza is safe.” Thirteen members of the Security Council voted for it, including France, while the United Kingdom abstained. Only U.S. Deputy Ambassador Robert Wood raised his hand to veto the resolution.

Four days later, on December 12, the Egyptians tabled much the same resolution in the UN General Assembly, where Assembly President Dennis Francis (of Trinidad and Tobago) said, “We have one singular priority—only one—to save lives. Stop this violence now.” The vote was overwhelming: 153 countries voted for the resolution, 10 voted against it, and 23 abstained. It is instructive to see which countries voted against the ceasefire: Austria, Czechia, Guatemala, Israel, Liberia, Micronesia, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, and the United States. Many European countries—from Bulgaria to the United Kingdom—abstained. But matters are complex. Even Ukraine did not vote with Israel on this resolution. They abstained.

The U.S. veto in the Security Council and the votes against in the General Assembly are effectively votes for the Permanent Nakba of the Palestinian people, the No-State Solution. At least, that is how they will be read across the world, not only in al-Mawasi, as the bombs get closer, but also in the demonstrations from New York to Jakarta.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

OCanada wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:30 pm The text. Link to follow

In 1948, the Syrian historian Constantin Zurayk used the Arabic word Nakba (Catastrophe) to refer to the forced removal of Palestinians from their lands and homes by the newly formed Israeli state (in his August 1948 book, Ma’na al-Nakba or The Meaning of the Nakba). A decade ago, in Beirut, I met with the Lebanese novelist Elias Khoury—then editor of the Arabic-language Journal of Palestinian Studies, who told me that the Nakba of 1948 was not an event but part of a process. “What we have is a Permanent Nakba, which means that this catastrophe has been continuous for the Palestinians,” he said. Since 1948, Palestinian political movements and intellectuals have argued that the logic of the Israeli state has been to expel the Palestinians from the region between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea. This policy of expulsion to create an ethno-religious Jewish State of Israel is what Khoury meant by the Permanent Nakba.

On November 11, 2023, Israel’s Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter said something startling to the press. “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” he said. “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end,” said this former director of Israel’s internal security service Shin Bet. In the first week of November, Israel’s Heritage Minister Amihai Eliyahu was on Radio Kol BaRama, whose interviewer ruminated about dropping “some kind of nuclear bomb on all of Gaza, flattening them, eliminating everybody there.” Eliyahu replied, “That’s one way. The second way is to work out what’s important to them, what scares them, what deters them… They’re not scared of death.” Israel, the minister said, should retake all of Gaza. What about the Palestinians? “They can go to Ireland or deserts,” he said. “The monsters in Gaza should find a solution by themselves.” This language of annihilation and dehumanization has become normal among the cabinet of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Netanyahu suspended Eliyahu from his cabinet, but he did not rebuke his Defense Minister Yoav Gallant who called Palestinians “human animals.” This is the broad attitude of the Israeli high officials, who are now on record with this kind of language.

Israel’s army has advanced its execution of the “Gaza Nakba.” In the early stage of the attack, Israel told Palestinian civilians to move south within the Strip, along Salah al-Din Road, the north-south axis in this 40-kilometer-long area of Palestine that holds 2.3 million Palestinians. The Israelis said that they would largely attack northern Gaza, particularly Gaza City. Around 1.5 million Palestinians moved from the northern part of Gaza to the south, the Israelis having told them repeatedly that this would be a safe zone. Those who stayed experienced a level of bombardment not seen in Gaza in the past, which has been pummeled by the Israelis on a punctual basis since 2006 (the current war including deadly air strikes against highly congested refugee camps, such as Jabalia). In late November, five weeks into their brutal bombing in the north, Israel aircraft intensified the bombing of Gaza’s second-largest city, Khan Younis, and began ground operations in the areas where they had told civilians to take shelter. By the first week of December, Israeli tanks surrounded Khan Younis, and Israeli aircraft began to bomb small towns in the southern part of Gaza. Having pushed 1.8 Palestinians into the south, the Israelis now began to bomb that part of Gaza. Meanwhile, Israel’s refusal to allow sufficient humanitarian aid to enter Gaza meant that nine out of 10 Palestinians are living without food for days on end (some told the UN World Food Program that they had not eaten in 10 days). This total war by Israel has pushed the majority of Palestinians in Gaza down toward the Egyptian border. Under cover of this war, the Israelis have also moved aggressively into the West Bank to deepen the Permanent Nakba in that part of the Occupied Palestinian Territory.

As early as October 18, long before the Israeli forces moved toward Khan Younis, the Israel military tweeted that it “orders Gaza residents to move to the humanitarian zone in the area of al-Mawasi.” Three days later, the Israeli military said that the Palestinians must move “south of Wadi Gaza” and go to the “humanitarian area in Mawasi.” Those who went to this small enclave (3.3 square miles) found it without any services—including no internet—and found that even here the Israelis were firing their weapons nearby. Mohammed Ghanem, who had lived near al-Shifa Hospital in northern Gaza, said that al-Mawasi was “neither humane nor safe.” Palestinians in southern Gaza now hope that they can get out before the Israeli bombs find them. The death toll is now in excess of 18,000 dead. As one Palestinian friend wrote in a text, “If we do not leave our homes and go into exile, we will get killed here.” He sent this text just when confirmation arrived that more Palestinians have been pushed out of their homes and killed since October 7 than in the Nakba of 1948. “This is the Second Nakba,” he said to me from near the border between Gaza and Egypt.

A Vote for Annihilation

The ghastly Israeli attack on the Palestinians of Gaza provoked a call for a ceasefire from the second week of October. Israel’s immense firepower—provided by Western countries (especially the United Kingdom and the United States)—was used indiscriminately against a people who live in congested areas of Gaza. Images of that violence flooded social media and even the broadcast news, which could not ignore what was happening. These images overcame all the attempts by the Israeli government and its Western backers to justify their actions. Tens of millions of people joined various forms of protests across the world, but significantly in the Western states that back Israel, bravely confronting governments that tried to portray their solidarity with the Palestinians—unsuccessfully—as antisemitism. This attack was a cynical attempt to use the actual and horrible existence of antisemitism to malign the protests. It did not work. The call for a full-scale ceasefire increased, putting pressure on governments around the world to act.

On December 8, 2023, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) put a “brief, simple, and crucial” resolution for a ceasefire (the words are from UAE ambassador to the UN Mohamed Issa Abushahab). UN Secretary-General António Guterres invoked Article 99 of the Charter, which allows him to underscore the importance of an event through “preventative diplomacy” (the article has only been used three times previously, over the conflicts in the Republic of Congo in 1960, Iran in 1979, and Lebanon in 1989). Almost a hundred member states of the UN backed the UAE resolution. “The people of Gaza are being told to move like human pinballs—ricocheting between ever-smaller slivers of the south, without any of the basics for survival,” Guterres told the UN Security Council. “Nowhere in Gaza is safe.” Thirteen members of the Security Council voted for it, including France, while the United Kingdom abstained. Only U.S. Deputy Ambassador Robert Wood raised his hand to veto the resolution.

Four days later, on December 12, the Egyptians tabled much the same resolution in the UN General Assembly, where Assembly President Dennis Francis (of Trinidad and Tobago) said, “We have one singular priority—only one—to save lives. Stop this violence now.” The vote was overwhelming: 153 countries voted for the resolution, 10 voted against it, and 23 abstained. It is instructive to see which countries voted against the ceasefire: Austria, Czechia, Guatemala, Israel, Liberia, Micronesia, Nauru, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, and the United States. Many European countries—from Bulgaria to the United Kingdom—abstained. But matters are complex. Even Ukraine did not vote with Israel on this resolution. They abstained.

The U.S. veto in the Security Council and the votes against in the General Assembly are effectively votes for the Permanent Nakba of the Palestinian people, the No-State Solution. At least, that is how they will be read across the world, not only in al-Mawasi, as the bombs get closer, but also in the demonstrations from New York to Jakarta.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/12 ... inues.html
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:26 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 12:05 pm
a fan wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:59 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 11:41 am I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.
Only way to do it is to put UN Troops in charge of Gaza.

Otherwise, all the funding that gets sent in will be taken by corrupt Hamas leaders who don't give a sH(t about anything but themselves.

You have to run Gaza like Hamas does: at the point of a gun. Turn it into an economic powerhouse, and Hamas will lose their power. Most people want to live a good, peaceful life with a good job. Give them that, and this mess goes away.

Won't happen.
I can think of lots of reasons why that might not happen, but why the certainty?

Seems to me that the situation cries out for international management, as you describe. And the situation has gotten so awful that such becomes possible.
The certainty comes from: this conflict is 80 years old, and the UN hasn't stepped in yet.
Past as prologue is certainly a possible predictor, but I wonder whether the scale of what is happening impels a different answer from the world. The UN being the most obvious player for such a role, though one could imagine other international configurations.
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Matnum PI
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Matnum PI »

PizzaSnake wrote: Thu Jan 11, 2024 1:27 pm ... it is a bit much for the Israelis to fault others, in this case, the UN, for delays in provision of relief when they, the Israelis, control the flow...
That makes more sense. Thanks.
Caddy Day
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Kismet
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Re: Israel and Zionism

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"The International Ice Hockey Federation (IIHF) has barred Israel from competing in its world championship events over security concerns.

The IIHF said in a statement it “has decided to restrict the Israeli National Team from participating in IIHF Championships until the safety and well-being of all participants (including Israeli participants) can be assured.”

“The IIHF Council took this decision after careful consideration and based on a risk assessment, discussions with the participating countries and discussions with the hosts.”

Israel’s men’s national team was scheduled to compete in the world championships in Division II, Group A (the fourth tier) in Serbia in mid-April."


https://theathletic.com/5195759/2024/01 ... el-hockey/
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