Israel and Zionism

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I'm guessing they are still spending the many billions of dollars that the Obama and Biden administrations so graciously handed over to them. That is a nice chunk of change they can use to kill more Jews and Americans. That would be courtesy of the democrats.

I'm interested to know more about this. How much $upport did each (Obama, Biden) administration give to Iran? Did the Trump administration impose sanctions on Iran? If so, are they still in place or has the Biden administration made changes? Thanks in advance for any light you might shed on the topic.

The Obama and Biden administrations have given no US money to Iran.

The Obama administration imposed a number of sanctions on Iran in 2012. This froze ~$100B of Iranian oil sales in a number of countries it sold oil to. If Iran was in compliance with the 2015 JCPOA deal, this would have been unfrozen. Iran would have received about ~$30B of this. Most of the remainder was illiquid - collateral and in use for other things.

The Biden administration recently released $6B in frozen Iranian funds in exchange for a few Americans Iran had detained.

Iran made this $6B in oil money because Donald Trump granted eight countries a waiver that allowed them to purchase Iranian oil after he withdrew from the JCPOA and reimposed a number of the pre-JCPOA sanctions.

Biden is in talks to revive part of the JCPOA, which could lead to a lift in some sanctions if Iran complies with abandoning its nuclear weapons development.

Thank you. Appreciate the response.

[cradleandshoot]

I'm guessing they are still spending the many billions of dollars that the Obama and Biden administrations so graciously handed over to them. That is a nice chunk of change they can use to kill more Jews and Americans. That would be courtesy of the democrats.

I'm interested to know more about this. How much $upport did each (Obama, Biden) administration give to Iran? Did the Trump administration impose sanctions on Iran? If so, are they still in place or has the Biden administration made changes? Thanks in advance for any light you might shed on the topic.

The Obama and Biden administrations have given no US money to Iran.

The Obama administration imposed a number of sanctions on Iran in 2012. This froze ~$100B of Iranian oil sales in a number of countries it sold oil to. If Iran was in compliance with the 2015 JCPOA deal, this would have been unfrozen. Iran would have received about ~$30B of this. Most of the remainder was illiquid - collateral and in use for other things.

The Biden administration recently released $6B in frozen Iranian funds in exchange for a few Americans Iran had detained.

Iran made this $6B in oil money because Donald Trump granted eight countries a waiver that allowed them to purchase Iranian oil after he withdrew from the JCPOA and reimposed a number of the pre-JCPOA sanctions.

Biden is in talks to revive part of the JCPOA, which could lead to a lift in some sanctions if Iran complies with abandoning its nuclear weapons development.

So why didn't Biden keep a freeze on that money? That would be good leverage to make Iran pay for all the devastating injuries to US service members they caused by the IEDs they supplied to the OPFOR. I'm guessing you don't give a chit about holding Iran legally responsible for the harm inflicted on our troops? The correct terminology should be that USE to be Iranian money that they forfeited by their violations of international law. I'm sure that's just crazy talk in your neck of the woods. Out of curiosity have you ever been to Walter Reed?? I'm guessing your more than willing and more than happy to give the Iranian government a pass. I'm guessing that 6 billion dollars would have gone a long way to help pay for the damage inflicted by Iran.

[NattyBohChamps04]

So why didn't Biden keep a freeze on that money? That would be good leverage to make Iran pay for all the devastating injuries to US service members they caused by the IEDs they supplied to the OPFOR. I'm guessing you don't give a chit about holding Iran legally responsible for the harm inflicted on our troops? The correct terminology should be that USE to be Iranian money that they forfeited by their violations of international law. I'm sure that's just crazy talk in your neck of the woods. Out of curiosity have you ever been to Walter Reed?? I'm guessing your more than willing and more than happy to give the Iranian government a pass. I'm guessing that 6 billion dollars would have gone a long way to help pay for the damage inflicted by Iran.

Because we wanted to free American hostages.

As far as that $6B of Iran's money? US and Qatar reach ‘quiet understanding’ not to release $6 billion sent to Iran for now, Treasury official tells House Democrats

Iran's gotta do a pretty big dog and pony show to get it, we didn't just let them have their own cash willy-nilly.

How many US servicemen and women have been injured by Iranian IEDs since Biden took office?

One of my more recent employee hirings was a Marine with a 100% VA disability rating. She was stuck in a Navy hospital under some pretty tight restrictions during the first part of COVID. Was out for a walk and talked to a random woman and vented her frustrations. Turns out that woman was the CO's wife. A few days later, the lot of them learned that they were going to have a lot more freedom of movement.

If you wanna look at who's not supporting veterans, you should look at most of the R's you've voted for before casting stones. They've blocked a hell of lot more than $6B in healthcare and other benefits for vets in recent years.

[Kismet]

Senior Hezbollah commander killed in his car in a drone strike in Southern Lebanon. Uh-oh

[dislaxxic]

THE FIRST TIME TRUMP “COLLUDED” WITH RUSSIA WAS TO HELP BIBI NETANYAHU

The first time Donald Trump worked via back channel with Russia to undermine Barack Obama’s foreign policy, it was to help Bibi Netanyahu dodge repercussions for illegal settlements in the West Bank.

And yet that effort — and the way that Jared Kushner mobilized a group of countries to undermine the sitting President’s foreign policy decision — has gone unmentioned in recent months, even as Bibi blows off Joe Biden’s requests for moderation in advance of the November election, even as Vladimir Putin holds overt meetings with Hamas, even as Kushner — effectively an employee of Mohammed bin Salman at this point — meets with Qatar and tours Kfar Aza.

..

[PizzaSnake]

Chutzpah, Israel is thy name.

“ Israeli officials, who insist that there is enough food and water for civilians in Gaza, have blamed the United Nations, saying it should find more staff, extend workers’ hours and deploy more trucks to distribute the aid. The officials say the military coordinates with aid groups to arrange safe passage for convoys, and announces daily pauses in the fighting for Gazans to collect aid.”

They should, should they?

I had no idea they grew such record-breaking onions in Israel.

How about Israel do those things? Hmm?

[OCanada]

A good presentation of why Netanyahu has to go.

https://www.theglobalist.com/the-charge ... netanyahu/

[Matnum PI]

How about Israel do those things? Hmm?

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

[MDlaxfan76]

How about Israel do those things? Hmm?

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

hmmm, if only things were so simple.

First, your statement of history of Gaza and Hamas is overly simplistic. Israel has never enabled a fully independent Gaza and has retained constraints on what can go in and out of Gaza throughout this period. We can dig deeper into that, but let's just start with the reality that Israel has never been hands off re Gaza.

And with sound reason, given the concerns about recurrent terrorist activities. But it's not as if "Gaza" was ever a fully independent Palestinian state free of Israeli influence and ultimate control. Much less that a two-state, independent Palestinian state, answer to the ongoing conflict was acceptable to the Netanyahu government...indeed every signal was that they were doing all in their power to prevent that occurrence.

Nor is "Gaza" = Hamas. One election long ago resulted in armed domination of the civilian population.

But let's put all of that aside.

The other aspect of why the situation isn't 'so simple' is that Israel's bombing campaign is perceived throughout the world as too much, bordering on genocidal if not simply war crimes. And Israel needs the support of at least a portion of that 'world', most importantly the US and Great Britain.

The horror about the loss of civilian life in Gaza and the destruction of huge parts of the city, the mass disruption and lack of basic necessities of life, are enormous PR issues for Israel.

And that's the short term problem, the loss of US and British support.

Also short term is the issue of inciting Hezbollah and others to more actively engage...the PR matters...

The longer term is the necessity to find a way to make peace with those who prefer peace to terror and revenge. The Israelis appear to not really be concerned at all about how many permanent enemies they create in the wake of this response...that's short-sighted, IMO.

[MDlaxfan76]

A good presentation of why Netanyahu has to go.

https://www.theglobalist.com/the-charge ... netanyahu/

Strong statement.

I do think that Netanyahu's departure in the next months could clear the way for a different future for the region, but will he exit stage?

Israelis continue to overwhelmingly support the ongoing prosecution of the war and the goal of destruction of Hamas, but they also overwhelmingly want Netanyahu out...will they be given a chance to vote?

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

Absolutely, positively 100%. How come Israel is the only nation who is expected to conduct themselves according to a ridiculously unrealistic high standard? An appropriate line occurs to me from the movie Spotlight, (and I'm glad this is Israel's mindset toward what the rest of the world expects them to do): "I think we're going to have to ignore everyone on this." When it comes to Israel's safety and survival--AMEN.

[a fan]

How about Israel do those things? Hmm?

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

hmmm, if only things were so simple.

First, your statement of history of Gaza and Hamas is overly simplistic. Israel has never enabled a fully independent Gaza and has retained constraints on what can go in and out of Gaza throughout this period. We can dig deeper into that, but let's just start with the reality that Israel has never been hands off re Gaza.

And with sound reason, given the concerns about recurrent terrorist activities. But it's not as if "Gaza" was ever a fully independent Palestinian state free of Israeli influence and ultimate control. Much less that a two-state, independent Palestinian state, answer to the ongoing conflict was acceptable to the Netanyahu government...indeed every signal was that they were doing all in their power to prevent that occurrence.

Nor is "Gaza" = Hamas. One election long ago resulted in armed domination of the civilian population.

Gaza is led by Hamas, as sad as that is. Just because we don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true.

[a fan]

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

Absolutely, positively 100%. How come Israel is the only nation who is expected to conduct themselves according to a ridiculously unrealistic high standard? An appropriate line occurs to me from the movie Spotlight, (and I'm glad this is Israel's mindset toward what the rest of the world expects them to do): "I think we're going to have to ignore everyone on this." When it comes to Israel's safety and survival--AMEN.

It's why asking other countries why they don't give the land they themselves stole back shuts up the petty activists so quickly.

it's ok for America and every other country around the world to "steal" or conquer their land......just not Israel. Ask the Native Americans about this.

More to the point: why aren't the Palestinians demanding that they get a large part of Jordan back? If you believe the "stolen land" idea, Jordan is on the hook, too.

We all know exactly why there isn't even a whiff of conflict between Hamas/Palestinians and Jordan.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

Absolutely, positively 100%. How come Israel is the only nation who is expected to conduct themselves according to a ridiculously unrealistic high standard? An appropriate line occurs to me from the movie Spotlight, (and I'm glad this is Israel's mindset toward what the rest of the world expects them to do): "I think we're going to have to ignore everyone on this." When it comes to Israel's safety and survival--AMEN.

It's why asking other countries why they don't give the land they themselves stole back shuts up the petty activists so quickly.

it's ok for America and every other country around the world to "steal" or conquer their land......just not Israel. Ask the Native Americans about this.

More to the point: why aren't the Palestinians demanding that they get a large part of Jordan back? If you believe the "stolen land" idea, Jordan is on the hook, too.

We all know exactly why there isn't even a whiff of conflict between Hamas/Palestinians and Jordan.

Outstanding post. Well said.

[MDlaxfan76]

How about Israel do those things? Hmm?

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

hmmm, if only things were so simple.

First, your statement of history of Gaza and Hamas is overly simplistic. Israel has never enabled a fully independent Gaza and has retained constraints on what can go in and out of Gaza throughout this period. We can dig deeper into that, but let's just start with the reality that Israel has never been hands off re Gaza.

And with sound reason, given the concerns about recurrent terrorist activities. But it's not as if "Gaza" was ever a fully independent Palestinian state free of Israeli influence and ultimate control. Much less that a two-state, independent Palestinian state, answer to the ongoing conflict was acceptable to the Netanyahu government...indeed every signal was that they were doing all in their power to prevent that occurrence.

Nor is "Gaza" = Hamas. One election long ago resulted in armed domination of the civilian population.

Gaza is led by Hamas, as sad as that is. Just because we don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true.

"led by", controlled by...yes. At gunpoint.
It's a fascist style reality for Gazans.

The question will be, post bombings (think Dresden and Berlin) can Gazans, (like Germans), choose a very different future if offered it (ala what the Marshall Plan did for Germans)...?

And will it be offered?...I think not by a Netanyahu or other right wing Israeli government.

[a fan]

How about Israel do those things? Hmm?

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

hmmm, if only things were so simple.

First, your statement of history of Gaza and Hamas is overly simplistic. Israel has never enabled a fully independent Gaza and has retained constraints on what can go in and out of Gaza throughout this period. We can dig deeper into that, but let's just start with the reality that Israel has never been hands off re Gaza.

And with sound reason, given the concerns about recurrent terrorist activities. But it's not as if "Gaza" was ever a fully independent Palestinian state free of Israeli influence and ultimate control. Much less that a two-state, independent Palestinian state, answer to the ongoing conflict was acceptable to the Netanyahu government...indeed every signal was that they were doing all in their power to prevent that occurrence.

Nor is "Gaza" = Hamas. One election long ago resulted in armed domination of the civilian population.

Gaza is led by Hamas, as sad as that is. Just because we don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true.

"led by", controlled by...yes. At gunpoint.
It's a fascist style reality for Gazans.

True. But irrelevant to the reality that Hamas is Israel and the world's "negotiating partner".

Which is a huge part of why Israel has stopped listening to anyone about anything they do.

I don't know how to fix this. Do you?

[a fan]

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

Absolutely, positively 100%. How come Israel is the only nation who is expected to conduct themselves according to a ridiculously unrealistic high standard? An appropriate line occurs to me from the movie Spotlight, (and I'm glad this is Israel's mindset toward what the rest of the world expects them to do): "I think we're going to have to ignore everyone on this." When it comes to Israel's safety and survival--AMEN.

It's why asking other countries why they don't give the land they themselves stole back shuts up the petty activists so quickly.

it's ok for America and every other country around the world to "steal" or conquer their land......just not Israel. Ask the Native Americans about this.

More to the point: why aren't the Palestinians demanding that they get a large part of Jordan back? If you believe the "stolen land" idea, Jordan is on the hook, too.

We all know exactly why there isn't even a whiff of conflict between Hamas/Palestinians and Jordan.

Outstanding post. Well said.

The truly sad part of all of this is that had 100% of the Palestinians had chosen peace all these years? There'd be no fences, and they could live and travel freely throughout Israel. Problem solved.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

Absolutely, positively 100%. How come Israel is the only nation who is expected to conduct themselves according to a ridiculously unrealistic high standard? An appropriate line occurs to me from the movie Spotlight, (and I'm glad this is Israel's mindset toward what the rest of the world expects them to do): "I think we're going to have to ignore everyone on this." When it comes to Israel's safety and survival--AMEN.

It's why asking other countries why they don't give the land they themselves stole back shuts up the petty activists so quickly.

it's ok for America and every other country around the world to "steal" or conquer their land......just not Israel. Ask the Native Americans about this.

More to the point: why aren't the Palestinians demanding that they get a large part of Jordan back? If you believe the "stolen land" idea, Jordan is on the hook, too.

We all know exactly why there isn't even a whiff of conflict between Hamas/Palestinians and Jordan.

You know that I agree with you on your analogies about the history of conquered lands etc.

But this misses another reality that we live in a much different world today, at least in the more developed "civilized" regions, in which genocide is no longer acceptable.

Native Americans were not simply defeated by a more technologically advanced invader, they were systematically killed or assimilated in genocidal fashion. It was not complete annihilation, but it was such that there could never be a realistic notion of return to real power.

Essentially that's what right wing Israelis think is how they will 'resolve' this problem as well. Essentially genocide. They have been in an apartheid set of tactics, squeezing Palestinians further and further, occupying more and more villages by force...and now this war gives license to what may well be mass genocide.

Now...Israel may well adopt this view permanently and drive it to the right wing's desired conclusion of pushing Palestinians entirely out of an expanded Israel...and the surviving Palestinians may have to flee to neighboring countries...yup. But in today's world, under the glare of cameras, there's a whole lot of "friends" of Israel that will withdraw support and trade etc...sure, Israel may turn to China or Russia for allies...but they'll lose America and Great Britain etc...

Hopefully, they will tack another way...

[MDlaxfan76]

How about Israel do those things? Hmm?

I'm not following. Israel removed themselves from Gaza, the Gazans democratically elected Hamas, the UN was providing aid to Gaza, again, Israel had separated themselves from Gaza and given the Gazans the independence they wanted. Now that Israel and Gaza are at war, why would Israel have the obligation of taking care of the Gazans? Especially with them being at war.

hmmm, if only things were so simple.

First, your statement of history of Gaza and Hamas is overly simplistic. Israel has never enabled a fully independent Gaza and has retained constraints on what can go in and out of Gaza throughout this period. We can dig deeper into that, but let's just start with the reality that Israel has never been hands off re Gaza.

And with sound reason, given the concerns about recurrent terrorist activities. But it's not as if "Gaza" was ever a fully independent Palestinian state free of Israeli influence and ultimate control. Much less that a two-state, independent Palestinian state, answer to the ongoing conflict was acceptable to the Netanyahu government...indeed every signal was that they were doing all in their power to prevent that occurrence.

Nor is "Gaza" = Hamas. One election long ago resulted in armed domination of the civilian population.

Gaza is led by Hamas, as sad as that is. Just because we don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true.

"led by", controlled by...yes. At gunpoint.
It's a fascist style reality for Gazans.

True. But irrelevant to the reality that Hamas is Israel and the world's "negotiating partner".

Which is a huge part of why Israel has stopped listening to anyone about anything they do.

I don't know how to fix this. Do you?

"fix this"?

You cut the rest of what I wrote, which is at least on that path:

"The question will be, post bombings (think Dresden and Berlin) can Gazans, (like Germans), choose a very different future if offered it (ala what the Marshall Plan did for Germans)...?

And will it be offered?...I think not by a Netanyahu or other right wing Israeli government."

Hamas cannot be the "negotiating partner", just as Hitler and Goering et al could never be "negotiated" with until the destruction of the Nazi war machine and Nazis could not be part of that future. But the pathway forward from that point was handled immensely differently than the outcome of any prior major war in history, certainly in Europe.

I know of no other war anywhere else prior in which the victors invested in the rebuilding of a new national identity and the success of the vanquished. And it's worked incredibly well.

[kramerica.inc]

Interested to hear your take on it, but I feel like the Marshall Plan worked largely in part because Germany and Europe wanted to be rebuilt. And the threat of Russia was a strong encouragement for Europe to buy in. Russian treatment of people in Germany and every other country during the war gave them an ideo of what to expect given the alternative, and made US influence welcome.

I think the areas in question here would be open to taking US money, building infrastructure, and trade. But getting the boader area and neighbors fully bought-in and open to any western influence would be an awfully hard sell.