Is America a racist nation?

[Kismet]

I'm comparing the treatment Irish immigrants received to how slaves were treated in the same time frame. If you wanna do some research investigate how the Irish were treated by the English. You ever seen Braveheart??? How many African Americans were shipped off to slavery by different cultures who defeated them in tribal warfare and got rid of them by selling them to the slave trade? Should they be held responsible for sending their fellow Africans off into slavery??? If you wanna take a deep dive investigate the entire many thousands of years of slavery in all cultures to include the Greeks/Romans etc...etc...etc. Maybe take a look at those Irish Immigrants who were new to this country. Maybe take a look at all of those Irish Immigrants who died fighting for freedom for all victims of slavery. Maybe take a look at how the civil war was the first successful war fought to end slavery in 1000s of years. Maybe you should actually study world history before your own ignorance makes you sound and look really stupid?

Braveheart was about SCOTS not Irish. Your Google button must be malfunctioning.

While you're at it try San Patricio battalion - a group a Catholic Irish-American deserters from the US Army who went over to fight for Mexico in the Mexican War - they fought against American troops at Churubusco and Chapultepec Castle. Those captured after Chapultepec were hung en masse in the city square as deserters by General Winfield Scott.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180971713/

More than a few free blacks fought for the Union as well as emancipated slaves. White officers only.

Now what was your point again?

I never knew that. I learned something today.

My pleasure
Try One Man's Hero (1999) with Tom Berenger as John Riley
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120775/reference/

It's why St Patrick's Day is a national holiday in Mexico to this very day.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.facinghistory.org/resource- ... lack-white

Some may say this was the beginning of race based politics…. Whiteness was a classification originated in North America. When people like Cradle and YA (he often brings up Barbary Coast) equate American slavery to that practiced in other parts of the world, they don’t understand how American slavery was unique in its practice. Prior to laws passed post Bacon’s Rebellion, interracial marriages were somewhat common. One of the consequences of extending rights based on race was the law that made anyone who married a slave a slave themselves. As I have said before, race in America was a legal construct. Again, post reconstruction is more problematic here than “slavery”. Had the country lived up to it promise then, we would be much further along as a country. We are about 75 to 100 years behind where we should be.

These are things not taught in schools.

[old salt]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they want to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who can't afford tuition room & board.
They want to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they wanted to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who couldn’t afford tuition room & board.
They wanted to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

That’s the correct tense. What did your class look like?

[old salt]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they wanted to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who couldn’t afford tuition room & board.
They wanted to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

That’s the correct tense. What did your class look like?

What's your point ? Be more specific.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they wanted to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who couldn’t afford tuition room & board.
They wanted to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

That’s the correct tense. What did your class look like?

What's your point ? Be more specific.

What were your advantages when you went to USNA? Was it on your own ball in a free market? Open competition? I believe that was AFAN’s position. Did all of the elements you cited exist when you applied? A lot of poor kids there? A representative sample of minorities represented? I believe you are suggesting it was free because the goal was to have the plebe classes reflect the socio-economic makeup of the country at that time……as for today, I don’t personally know any poor or working class kids that went to an academy. The kids I know were all well off. 12 of them.

[a fan]

...because they want to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who can't afford tuition room & board.
They want to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

...so close, and yet so far. Why did Dmac have no trouble figuring this out?

Let me help you:

We pay for tuition and room and board at America's State Universities, because they want to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who can't afford tuition room & board. The American Government wants to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an spot at our government run Universities?

Get the point now? Or do you honestly think you were the ONLY kid in America who worked hard in HS, and outcompeted others to gain admissions at your chosen School?

You think they're handing out offers to Cal Poly to kids who can fog a mirror? Those kids didn't bust *ss to get in?

So....why would the American government be so shortsighted and stupid to ONLY give out these freebies to you and your military pals? Like America doesn't need engineers or computer programmers or freaking teachers?

What your'e telling me is, you understand that the free market fails kids, and "therefore" the government should pick up tuition and room and board at the academies, lest the poor kids get left out.

But you're perfectly happy for these same kids to be left out in the cold if they attend Cal Poly. How do you not see this hypocrisy?

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

Pretty clear to your fellow posters that you never bothered to pick up a dictionary to learn what either of those words mean.

Because if you had, you'd be calling yourself a proud socialist. Or, you would have NEVER applied to a government school in the first place.

[old salt]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

[old salt]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they wanted to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who couldn’t afford tuition room & board.
They wanted to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

That’s the correct tense. What did your class look like?

What's your point ? Be more specific.

What were your advantages when you went to USNA? Was it on your own ball in a free market? Open competition? I believe that was AFAN’s position. Did all of the elements you cited exist when you applied? A lot of poor kids there? A representative sample of minorities represented? I believe you are suggesting it was free because the goal was to have the plebe classes reflect the socio-economic makeup of the country at that time……as for today, I don’t personally know any poor or working class kids that went to an academy. The kids I know were all well off. 12 of them.

You do not have a representative sample size. Most of my company mates were public school kids from working class families. Most fathers had served, as enlisted men. 1 of 3 entrants in my class did not last until graduation. I was selected from a pool of qualified alternates & competitors, as were 2/3 of my classmates. I don't know the precise demographics. I doubt that data was collected. We were all male (by law) & racially diverse.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I was taught that leaders eat last, and lead by example. It's why I'm at work today, and my crew is home with their families...one vacationing.

Here's a question that gets to my earlier point with Old Salt and the free market: why don't they charge for tuition and room and board at Academies?

They could. But they don't. Why? And you can't answer "because they serve".

...because they wanted to draw officers from all strata of society & economic classes, including those who couldn’t afford tuition room & board.
They wanted to extend the opportunity to everyone to compete for an appointment.

The military offers ROTC scholarship Nursing programs. The military always needs nurses & service may include some student loan forgiveness.

I no longer consider you a Socialist. I consider you a Communist.

That’s the correct tense. What did your class look like?

What's your point ? Be more specific.

What were your advantages when you went to USNA? Was it on your own ball in a free market? Open competition? I believe that was AFAN’s position. Did all of the elements you cited exist when you applied? A lot of poor kids there? A representative sample of minorities represented? I believe you are suggesting it was free because the goal was to have the plebe classes reflect the socio-economic makeup of the country at that time……as for today, I don’t personally know any poor or working class kids that went to an academy. The kids I know were all well off. 12 of them.

You do not have a representative sample size. Most of my company mates were public school kids from working class families. Most fathers had served, as enlisted men. 1 of 3 entrants in my class did not last until graduation. I was selected from a pool of qualified alternates & competitors, as were 2/3 of my classmates. I don't know the precise demographics. I doubt that data was collected. We were all male (by law) & racially diverse.

You said it academies were tuition free to attract kids from all socio-economic strata. I don’t believe that was true. Lots of ways to attract a sample closer to the population without making it free for everyone.

My philosophy has always been you don’t need to make “college” free for people that have the capacity to pay. Also, I don’t know of any highly selective school that admits kids that don’t meet admission requirements. Do you? You did mention the black football player that failed out of USNA. Not sure why he was picked as an example. He must have been unqualified because only unqualified students fail out, right?

[a fan]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

Works for me. You still don't get the point. Or you get the point, and could give a sh9t about your fellow Americans. Let them eat cake.

Every other 1st world nation has figured this out.....we need 21st century skills to get good jobs in the World.

That's ok, I'm sure rural America families will figure out how to pay $70k per year for a great school. Meanwhile, the coastal elite libs can pay that tuition in their sleep, and the gap between the haves and the have nots widens even more.

Why? Because of guys like you and your desire for "socialism for me, and free market for thee."

Whatever works for you. I'm done explaining this to you. Republicans: don't change a thing, what you're doing is perfect!

[youthathletics]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

Works for me. You still don't get the point. Or you get the point, and could give a sh9t about your fellow Americans. Let them eat cake.

Every other 1st world nation has figured this out.....we need 21st century skills to get good jobs in the World.

That's ok, I'm sure rural America families will figure out how to pay $70k per year for a great school. Meanwhile, the coastal elite libs can pay that tuition in their sleep, and the gap between the haves and the have nots widens even more.

Why? Because of guys like you and your desire for "socialism for me, and free market for thee."

Whatever works for you. I'm done explaining this to you. Republicans: don't change a thing, what you're doing is perfect!

I think you all are talking past one another....

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I sent kids to a public school and USNA, so I have a bit of skin in the game with this conversation and may be able to provide some input.

Do you have a more direct question.

[Typical Lax Dad]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

Works for me. You still don't get the point. Or you get the point, and could give a sh9t about your fellow Americans. Let them eat cake.

Every other 1st world nation has figured this out.....we need 21st century skills to get good jobs in the World.

That's ok, I'm sure rural America families will figure out how to pay $70k per year for a great school. Meanwhile, the coastal elite libs can pay that tuition in their sleep, and the gap between the haves and the have nots widens even more.

Why? Because of guys like you and your desire for "socialism for me, and free market for thee."

Whatever works for you. I'm done explaining this to you. Republicans: don't change a thing, what you're doing is perfect!

I think you all are talking past one another....

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I sent kids to a public school and USNA, so I have a bit of skin in the game with this conversation and may be able to provide some input.

Do you have a more direct question.

Not to debate but most of the kids I know also went to “public” schools. It’s actually easier to go to many private schools than to pay the entry fee into Darien or Weston or New Canaan public schools.

[a fan]

I think you all are talking past one another....

We are. We always do.

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I'm saying that the Federal Government, and Old Salt, understands that in order to get the best possible candidates at the Academies, they have to make it free.

It follows (obviously) that the same logic should apply to all Government run Colleges. Otherwise, you're not getting the best candidates available for the education.

What Old Salt and others don't seem to get is:the USNA ain't a private college. Neither are the Universities of Virginia, Michigan, California, et. al.

What kind of half wit logic are we using where we understand, with no trouble whatsoever, that you need to make college free so that you don't miss out on talented kids who meet the entrance standards, yet are from poor families.....yet this logic ONLY applies to our Service Academies?

Either let the free market work, and get government out of the way (the supposed preference of the Republican party), or make the government work for EVERYONE, not just relatively rich kids who don't need help. This nonsense is making the wage gap in America insurmountable, fellas.


Or.....keep on keepin' on. And let TrumpNation eat cake.

Edit to add: In short, I'm trying to convince the board's Republicans that we need a 21st Century workforce just as badly as we need military leaders that leave West Point. What we are doing now isn't working.

[youthathletics]

I think you all are talking past one another....

We are. We always do.

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I'm saying that the Federal Government, and Old Salt, understands that in order to get the best possible candidates at the Academies, they have to make it free.

It follows (obviously) that the same logic should apply to all Government run Colleges. Otherwise, you're not getting the best candidates available for the education.

What Old Salt and others don't seem to get is:the USNA ain't a private college. Neither are the Universities of Virginia, Michigan, California, et. al.

What kind of half wit logic are we using where we understand, with no trouble whatsoever, that you need to make college free so that you don't miss out on talented kids who meet the entrance standards, yet are from poor families.....yet this logic ONLY applies to our Service Academies?

Either let the free market work, and get government out of the way (the supposed preference of the Republican party), or make the government work for EVERYONE, not just relatively rich kids who don't need help. This nonsense is making the wage gap in America insurmountable, fellas.


Or.....keep on keepin' on. And let TrumpNation eat cake.

There are gaps in your logic, along with quite a bit of other intel.

~ Think of SA's as if you are enlisting in the Armed Forces right out of HS(so comparing it to any other college does not work perfectly)...and actually, you have to be sworn to the military to attend, that is a HUGE deterrent to many. Plebes (freshman)do this over the summer. For those that go to a prep school like NAPS or MAPS, you have to visit the recruiter prior. So think of the SA along thrse lines, it's like an academic school for Enlisted persons that applied and were selected based on admission standards of those institutions.

~The SA's are also limited to enrollment each year, based on a total of 4400 for the Brigade. so each class is ~ 1100. That allocation/budget comes from the Fed, not the SA.

~ The other thing you may not know. Many of the classes are not transferrable to other schools. There are some that are separated from the school and have to make up for lost credits that were not transferrable when the enroll elsewhere.

~ If you are separated from the school, you may be responsible to pay the Feds back all the money that was allocated to you. So when you terd up, it no longer free.

~ Class Portrait - https://www.usna.edu/Admissions/_files/ ... rtrait.pdf

I don't think anyone thinks USNA or USMA or USAFA, etc are private colleges, if they do....there not well informed.

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

Not sure if this helps, hope it does.

[a fan]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

[youthathletics]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

Works for me. You still don't get the point. Or you get the point, and could give a sh9t about your fellow Americans. Let them eat cake.

Every other 1st world nation has figured this out.....we need 21st century skills to get good jobs in the World.

That's ok, I'm sure rural America families will figure out how to pay $70k per year for a great school. Meanwhile, the coastal elite libs can pay that tuition in their sleep, and the gap between the haves and the have nots widens even more.

Why? Because of guys like you and your desire for "socialism for me, and free market for thee."

Whatever works for you. I'm done explaining this to you. Republicans: don't change a thing, what you're doing is perfect!

I think you all are talking past one another....

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I sent kids to a public school and USNA, so I have a bit of skin in the game with this conversation and may be able to provide some input.

Do you have a more direct question.

Not to debate but most of the kids I know also went to “public” schools. It’s actually easier to go to many private schools than to pay the entry fee into Darien or Weston or New Canaan public schools.

my bad....while I did send my kids to public HS they also went to public colleges

[Typical Lax Dad]

We don't need to pay civilian colleges to crank out philosophy majors. The military needs STEM major warriors who are willing to fight. You can attend CalPoly on a ROTC scholarship.

Works for me. You still don't get the point. Or you get the point, and could give a sh9t about your fellow Americans. Let them eat cake.

Every other 1st world nation has figured this out.....we need 21st century skills to get good jobs in the World.

That's ok, I'm sure rural America families will figure out how to pay $70k per year for a great school. Meanwhile, the coastal elite libs can pay that tuition in their sleep, and the gap between the haves and the have nots widens even more.

Why? Because of guys like you and your desire for "socialism for me, and free market for thee."

Whatever works for you. I'm done explaining this to you. Republicans: don't change a thing, what you're doing is perfect!

I think you all are talking past one another....

Afan - I am not tracking you either, unless your argument is that SA schools should not exist or college tuition, in general is off the phuggin hook in price...is that what you are arguing? Otherwise, your $70k number seems about 40-50 percent inflated, especially for an instate school.

I sent kids to a public school and USNA, so I have a bit of skin in the game with this conversation and may be able to provide some input.

Do you have a more direct question.

Not to debate but most of the kids I know also went to “public” schools. It’s actually easier to go to many private schools than to pay the entry fee into Darien or Weston or New Canaan public schools.

my bad....while I did send my kids to public HS they also went to public colleges

You missed my point. Supposedly way back when OS matriculated, academies were free to ensure the class makeup reflected the population. I don't believe the class make up reflected the general population then and probably not now. Not a criticism just a reality. I really don't know a lot of poor people at the academies and a large chunk of people in this country are poor. Westchester County, Fairfield County, Bergen County, Louden County, Montgomery County public schools are NOT what most people thing of when they think of public schools. When Charter Schools are solutions in those communities, I may change my mind. The military as a whole probably has a better representation of the demographic makeup than most places in society. But I don't believe the make up of military academies are at parity with the general military population from a socio-economic standpoint. I may be wrong. If you have the data that says otherwise I will definitely take a look at it.

[youthathletics]

I really do not grasp your half wit logic argument.....what does poor or rich have to do with anything in the realm of this discussion about SA's? Do non SA colleges make you sign a contract to serve 5+ years of military service upon graduation?

No, but if you enlist in the military, you're on the hook for 6 years of service. Yet you don't get free education plus room and board at an elite school.

You have an answer as to why? Remember: this is the government, not the free market. Why does one group serve for 6 years and get, to quote from the US Army's own web page "retired soldiers are not allowed tuition assistance"....and another a free ride? This taxpayer is not happy with this arrangement.

https://myarmybenefits.us.army.mil/Bene ... )?serv=128



I think you missed the part I exchanged with Dmac: service is the solution. You give college tuition in exchange for service.

I'm trying to get Republicans to figure out how to educate TrumpNation. They are the part that's in the way right now.

My point to OS is: why do you get this freebie from the government, and we can't offer it to everyone else?

His response is that he thinks a Government Program is the free market. It's not. This is an arbitrary choice by our Government, and an unfair one at that. Picking winners and losers, and throwing taxpayer money at the winners.

There is TA available for those that have served....not following you.

There also is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

Now an Enlisted person can gravitate out of the fleet and be recommended to attend OCS Officer Candidate school and even go to the USNA, USMA, etc as a 'prior' Enlisted, happens all the time.

This is a similar argument we have on the education thread, where you are required to have a college degree to even apply for a job, even though you could run circles around someone with a degree. The military has this line in the sand between the two, Enlisted & Officer. Others can chime in, but Officers are often far more trained in real world leadership/academia things, whereas the enlisted are more locked in on silos of expertise. And to be clear, you do not need to attend USNA etc, to be an officer. Many of the highest ranking in USN, such as Rear Admirals, come from public and state colleges.

[a fan]

Because there is discreet difference between Enlisted and Officers? The grads of SA's are officers, Enlisted people do not become Officers...maybe a Warrant Officer, but that is equal to a rather lower rank, can not recall.

You understand this is an arbitrary difference, yeah? Someone in the Government pulled this concept out of their *ss, and made it a thing.

This is not a free market choice. It was an arbitrary choice, made by a literal bureaucrat.

And the logic doesn't work: you're telling me the "reason" Academy grads get free tuition etc. is that they sign up to serve.

Yeah, so does the rest of the military. So.......

Take a look at the original GI Bill----everything from zero down payment loans, to free tuition and books, to vocational trainin. Well, only if you were a white soldier, sadly.

THAT is how you take care of our military. We did it with zero difficulty or hardship.

Apply this thought process to the American workforce, and add in a mandatory service component that starts immediately. We could turn the entire country around in a generation.

Instead? How would you rate how our current system is going?