Our Undeclared Wars

[old salt]

... the Houthis don't own any merchant ships.

Iran does. Start sinking ships. They'll get the message.

I'm against unprovoked war. But defending your nation is fine.

As I documented in my post -- Biden is pressuring the Saudis to end their war against the Houti in Yemen, not widen it.
Like most other navies of the world, the Saudis don't have shops capable of dealing with this specific threat.

I get that. That's THE point: build one. How the F do the Saudis have THAT much coastline with THAT much dependence on shipping oil....and not have a freaking fleet?

Am I not being clear in explaining this, or are you being willfully obtuse because you don't accept reality as it exists ?
The Iranians are opening a whole new front in their war against the civilized world & we're releasing their sanctioned $'s to pay for it.

You're being perfectly clear. You're giving the Saudis (and others) a pass for not protecting shipping lanes that are directly adjacent to their own freaking countries. I'm not. They've got money. They've got shipyards. Build a fleet.

As for the Houtis? Hit the Iranians if you want to avoid hitting Yemen. Start turning their ships into coral reefs. If that doesn't get the message across, start hitting ports.

Defend your nation.

Iran keeps playing these games because no one hits back.

Hit back.

Never thought I'd end the year agreeing with a fan on much of anything. Too bad it's regarding more war, unprovoked or otherwise.

Agreed. Saudi navy doesn't have a ship bigger than a frigate. Mostly corvettes. Maybe divert some of that LIV golf $$$$$ to build some kind of military defense capability in a bad neighborhood.

And barking the BS about NATO command when no NATO Navy except the Brits and us have the ships and weapons to do the job is just more anti-European piling on by their biggest "fan" around here. Sometimes think Saltine hates the Euros more than the Rooskies.

Wasn't too long ago we were trying to get the Saudis to stop bombing the Houthis which they finally did - no everyone wants us to bomb them. Maybe retract that terrorist designation first though.

You don't know what you're talking about. The other NATO ships have the ability to shoot down the drones & cruise missiles & repel boarding parties with armed helos. They can & have been shooting down drones & cruise missiles.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/ ... a-military
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-67738032
They just don't have the BMD capability or carry as many missiles as USN AEGIS destroyers do. 1 USN AEGIS destroyer can provide BMD for the entire task force.

It is not surprising that the Saudis or other NATO navies do not possess a BMD capability. They have not faced the threat like USN & Japanese warships do from Chinese & N Korean ballistic missiles. It's an extensive & expensive upgrade & technology we only share with our most trusted allles.

The Saudi's have 4 air defense frigates based in the Red Sea, each with 26 short range SAM's.
They could escort ships in close proximity. They just don't have a BMD capability, but neither do any of our NATO allies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Madinah-class_frigate

NATO could easily command the task force. Norway & Spain both have AEGIS ships. The Brits, French, Italian & German air defense destroyers & frigates do not have AEGIS, but they have capable systems.
Except for the BMD threat, NATO (without USN ships) is perfectly capable of dealing with this low intensity air defense threat.
https://cepa.org/article/nato-must-be-r ... -conflict/
We're protecting the Euros from the Rooskies because they take us for granted & are too cheap to do it themselves.

[old salt]

.....you're going to come on here and praise Biden for green lighting the Navy...who promptly dropped three Houthi ships to the bottom of the Sea, yeah?

...that's an exaggeration. USN helos responding to distress calls from a merchant ship being boarded were fired upon & they returned fire, sinking 3 speed boats, not ships. They acted in self-defense. Biden did not order their sinking. He was not even in the loop.

[a fan]

.....you're going to come on here and praise Biden for green lighting the Navy...who promptly dropped three Houthi ships to the bottom of the Sea, yeah?

...that's an exaggeration. USN helos responding to distress calls from a merchant ship being boarded were fired upon & they returned fire, sinking 3 speed boats, not ships. They acted in self-defense. Biden did not order their sinking. He was not even in the loop.

Right. And why were the helicopters in the area, OS?

....you'd be on here, telling us how cool Trump was if this happened under his watch.

Why the F do you ALWAYS do this? It makes you small.

[NattyBohChamps04]

... the Houthis don't own any merchant ships.

Iran does. Start sinking ships. They'll get the message.

I'm against unprovoked war. But defending your nation is fine.

As I documented in my post -- Biden is pressuring the Saudis to end their war against the Houti in Yemen, not widen it.
Like most other navies of the world, the Saudis don't have shops capable of dealing with this specific threat.

I get that. That's THE point: build one. How the F do the Saudis have THAT much coastline with THAT much dependence on shipping oil....and not have a freaking fleet?

Am I not being clear in explaining this, or are you being willfully obtuse because you don't accept reality as it exists ?
The Iranians are opening a whole new front in their war against the civilized world & we're releasing their sanctioned $'s to pay for it.

You're being perfectly clear. You're giving the Saudis (and others) a pass for not protecting shipping lanes that are directly adjacent to their own freaking countries. I'm not. They've got money. They've got shipyards. Build a fleet.


As for the Houtis? Hit the Iranians if you want to avoid hitting Yemen. Start turning their ships into coral reefs. If that doesn't get the message across, start hitting ports.

Defend your nation.

Iran keeps playing these games because no one hits back.

Hit back.

Last time around, we took out half of Iran's navy in... wait for it... 8 hours.

[Kismet]

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/0 ... l-00133388

"The USS Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier is returning home after extended deployment defending Israel
The Ford was sent to the Eastern Mediterranean to be within striking distance of Israel since the day after Hamas’ Oct. 7 attacks.

The Ford and its accompanying warships will be replaced by the amphibious assault ship the USS Bataan and its accompanying warships, the USS Mesa Verde and the USS Carter Hall. The three vessels had been in the Red Sea and have been transiting toward the Eastern Mediterranean over the last few days.

The Ford will sail for home “in the coming days,” the U.S. 6th Fleet, the European-based U.S. naval command that’s responsible for ships sailing in the Mediterranean, said in a statement.

The Bataan’s accompanying warship the Mesa Verde is a transport dock ship, carrying approximately 2,000 Marines from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit. Those Marines provide “forces capable of supporting a wide range of missions,” the U.S. 6th Fleet said.

The Carter Hall is a dock landing ship, which carries amphibious landing craft and their crews. Both vessels and the Bataan can support rotary aircraft; the Bataan can also carry and support Marine Corps’ F-35 vertical takeoff fighter aircraft."

Wondering what will replace the Ford group's guided missile destroyers and cruisiers - Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser USS Normandy, as well as the Arleigh-Burke-class guided missile destroyers USS Thomas Hudner, USS Ramage, USS Carney, and USS Roosevelt.

Also note this

https://gcaptain.com/iran-frigate-enters-red-sea/

"Iranian Navy Frigate Enters Red Sea As Tensions Escalate
Iran’s Alborz warship has entered the Red Sea, the semi-official Tasnim news agency reported on Monday, at a time of soaring tensions on the key shipping route amid the Israel-Hamas war and attacks on vessels by forces allied to Tehran. The Alborz warship entered the Red Sea via the Bab al-Mandab Strait, Tasnim said, without saying when. There were unconfirmed reports on social media it arrived late on Saturday."

[old salt]

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/01/0 ... l-00133388

... the Bataan can also carry and support Marine Corps’ F-35 vertical takeoff fighter aircraft."

Wondering what will replace the Ford group's guided missile destroyers and cruisiers - Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser USS Normandy, as well as the Arleigh-Burke-class guided missile destroyers USS Thomas Hudner, USS Ramage, USS Carney, and USS Roosevelt.

The Baatan still has Harriers. They don't have F-35B's yet.

Some of the E coast based destroyers who originally sailed with the Ford went home before Xmas & were replaced by USN Rota, SP based destroyers & other E coast destroyers who were on stand by for N Atlantic ready response. They'll remain to defend the Baatan ARG.
https://news.usni.org/2024/01/01/carrie ... extensions
Ford’s move back to its Naval Station Norfolk, Va., homeport follows the move of amphibious warships USS Bataan (LHD-5) and USS Carter Hall (LSD-50) from the Red Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean to rejoin USS Mesa Verde (LPD-19) after five months in the Middle East, USNI News reported last week. The ARG will be joined by an unspecified number of guided-missile destroyers to augment the formation, two defense officials confirmed to USNI News.

With the reaggregation of the Bataan Amphibious Ready Group and the embarked 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit as a presence force off Israel, the Dwight D. Eisenhower Carrier Strike Group and its escorts are operating in the Gulf of Aden off the coast of Yemen, according to Thursday’s USNI News Fleet and Marine Tracker.

Ships from the Gerald R. Ford Carrier Strike Group (GRFCSG) and the Bataan Amphibious Ready Group (ARG), and Hellenic Navy frigate HS Navarinon (F 461) sail in formation in the Mediterranean Sea, Dec. 31, 2023. US Navy Photo
On Sunday, Bataan and Ford held a photo exercise in the Eastern Mediterranean. U.S. 6th Fleet did not release an anticipated return for Ford.

Quickly after the Oct. 7th attack on Israel by Hamas forces, Ford and its escorts were retasked from their Eastern Europe deterrence mission and moved close to Israel as a hedge against the conflict expanding beyond Southern Israel, USNI News reported at the time.

Austin extended the Ford’s planned deployment on Oct. 17 and then again in mid-November.

While Ford, guided-missile cruiser USS Normandy (CG-60) and embarked Carrier Air Wing 8 have been extended other ships in the strike group have already returned to the East Coast and others have been retasked to missions in the Red Sea.

Ford initially deployed with the guided-missile destroyers USS Ramage (DDG-61), USS McFaul (DDG-74), and USS Thomas Hudner (DDG-116).
Ramage returned to Norfolk on Dec. 3, Hudner had downed several attack drones in the Red Sea and McFaul operated extensively in the Middle East.

Currently, Ford is sailing with USS The Sullivans (DDG-68), USS Bulkeley (DDG-84) and USS Delbert D. Black (DDG-119), according to the Navy.

[old salt]

.....you're going to come on here and praise Biden for green lighting the Navy...who promptly dropped three Houthi ships to the bottom of the Sea, yeah?

...that's an exaggeration. USN helos responding to distress calls from a merchant ship being boarded were fired upon & they returned fire, sinking 3 speed boats, not ships. They acted in self-defense. Biden did not order their sinking. He was not even in the loop.

Right. And why were the helicopters in the area, OS?

....you'd be on here, telling us how cool Trump was if this happened under his watch.

Why the F do you ALWAYS do this? It makes you small.

You're talking through your ass. I'm hot knocking Biden. You're just embellishing his part in this.
We don't know enough yet about what happened to form any conclusions, let alone chest thump.
Let's wait for the dramatic photo op from the situation room in St Croix.

[old salt]

Last time around, we took out half of Iran's navy in... wait for it... 8 hours.

That operation required Presidential approval. Self defense against Houti speed boats does not.

CinC Biden has yet to order any decisive actions against the Houthis. Everything so far has been defensive.
That's not a critique, just a statement of fact.

obtw -- in the A-6, the bombardier sits next to the pilot, not behind the pilot.

[a fan]

.....you're going to come on here and praise Biden for green lighting the Navy...who promptly dropped three Houthi ships to the bottom of the Sea, yeah?

...that's an exaggeration. USN helos responding to distress calls from a merchant ship being boarded were fired upon & they returned fire, sinking 3 speed boats, not ships. They acted in self-defense. Biden did not order their sinking. He was not even in the loop.

Right. And why were the helicopters in the area, OS?

....you'd be on here, telling us how cool Trump was if this happened under his watch.

Why the F do you ALWAYS do this? It makes you small.

You're talking through your ass. I'm hot knocking Biden. You're just embellishing his part in this.
We don't know enough yet about what happened to form any conclusions, let alone chest thump.
Let's wait for the dramatic photo op from the situation room in St Croix.

FFS. Yes. We do. You made many posts about the moving US Navy moving their chess pieces into the region over the last few weeks?

Who did that? Your mom?

If Trump was in charge, you'd be bragging about how he stepped up the US presence in the region to take care of sh*t like this, and keeping the sea lanes open....and telling us how Obama sucked at this stuff.

Your lack of self awareness is tiring.

[old salt]

.....you're going to come on here and praise Biden for green lighting the Navy...who promptly dropped three Houthi ships to the bottom of the Sea, yeah?

...that's an exaggeration. USN helos responding to distress calls from a merchant ship being boarded were fired upon & they returned fire, sinking 3 speed boats, not ships. They acted in self-defense. Biden did not order their sinking. He was not even in the loop.

Right. And why were the helicopters in the area, OS?

....you'd be on here, telling us how cool Trump was if this happened under his watch.

Why the F do you ALWAYS do this? It makes you small.

You're talking through your ass. I'm hot knocking Biden. You're just embellishing his part in this.
We don't know enough yet about what happened to form any conclusions, let alone chest thump.
Let's wait for the dramatic photo op from the situation room in St Croix.

FFS. Yes. We do. You made many posts about the moving US Navy moving their chess pieces into the region over the last few weeks?

Who did that? Your mom?

If Trump was in charge, you'd be bragging about how he stepped up the US presence in the region to take care of sh*t like this, and keeping the sea lanes open....and telling us how Obama sucked at this stuff.

Your lack of self awareness is tiring.

You said yourself I've been digging out the details & posting what's going on. My critique was of our NATO allies not following our lead.
I have neither praised or criticized Biden. I don't know what the intel says & what his military advisors are proposing.
He has not yet made the difficult decision to use significant force.
You are the one politicizing this. You insist on making everything (R) vs (D).

[a fan]

I have neither praised or criticized Biden.

Please, by all means, keep pretending that that's not the exact point.

Gaslight.

[old salt]

I have neither praised or criticized Biden.

Please, by all means, keep pretending that that's not the exact point.

Gaslight.

You want me to express an opinion, so you can pick it apart.
I don't have an opinion yet. I don't have sufficient information to formulate one.
My preferred outcome would be that we deter further attacks on merchant shipping
without having to take further action, but that is looking less likely.
Once we start sinking ships or attacking Yemen, there's no telling how it unwinds.
I prefer successful deterrence to "teaching Iran a lesson".
Israel needs time to secure their survival without this turning into a regional war.

[a fan]

I have neither praised or criticized Biden.

Please, by all means, keep pretending that that's not the exact point.

Gaslight.

You want me to express an opinion, so you can pick it apart.

No. I want you to treat all Presidents the same.

Biden moved our assets in the region. They sank three boats (happy?) that were a direct threat to safe passage. You have told me DOZENS of times how important this is.

If Biden DIDN'T have these assets in the region? Tell me what you would do?

You'd complain. Endlessly.

So stop gaslighting.

I hold you to a higher bar than I hold Petey or DocB. Should I stop doing that?

[old salt]

I have neither praised or criticized Biden.

Please, by all means, keep pretending that that's not the exact point.

Gaslight.

You want me to express an opinion, so you can pick it apart.

No. I want you to treat all Presidents the same.

Biden moved our assets in the region. They sank three boats (happy?) that were a direct threat to safe passage. You have told me DOZENS of times how important this is.

If Biden DIDN'T have these assets in the region? Tell me what you would do?

You'd complain. Endlessly.

So stop gaslighting.

I hold you to a higher bar than I hold Petey or DocB. Should I stop doing that?

The assets were already in the area on their normal deployment schedule. This is why we maintain a global presence.
Biden did not order the sinking of the Houthi speedboats. He has not had to make any difficult decisions yet. ...thankfully.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Last time around, we took out half of Iran's navy in... wait for it... 8 hours.

That operation required Presidential approval. Self defense against Houti speed boats does not.

CinC Biden has yet to order any decisive actions against the Houthis. Everything so far has been defensive.
That's not a critique, just a statement of fact.

obtw -- in the A-6, the bombardier sits next to the pilot, not behind the pilot.

Seems to be a smart decision. We do have the ability to react semi-disproportionately without approval.

As far as the A-6, feel free to take it up with the guy who made the video. I wasn't paying attention when he mentioned it . I'm more knowledgeable about the F-4 and A-10 anyway.

[Kismet]

U.S. Drone strike in Bagdhad kills three top Iranian-backed militia leaders. Iraqi government is NOT happy. Remains to be seen if they will ask for withdrawal of U.S forces from Iraqi territory. Not sure that the Iraqi kurds would support that as U.S. forces are largely deployed only in their part of the country near Erbil and Syria.

in other news from the area, ISIS took responsibility for the bombing inside Iran that killed over 100 people.

[youthathletics]

On Jan. 3, Iraqi police in Babylon discovered a land attack cruise missile of Iranian design that failed to launch. The use of Iranian supplied munitions by terrorist groups within Iraq and Syria endanger Coalition forces and local residents. The Coalition is appreciative of the efforts of the legitimate security forces in Iraq for their efforts to prevent future attacks.

https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/1743268112018047314?s=20

[cradleandshoot]

On Jan. 3, Iraqi police in Babylon discovered a land attack cruise missile of Iranian design that failed to launch. The use of Iranian supplied munitions by terrorist groups within Iraq and Syria endanger Coalition forces and local residents. The Coalition is appreciative of the efforts of the legitimate security forces in Iraq for their efforts to prevent future attacks.

https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/1743268112018047314?s=20

Are you insinuating the Iranian leadership are dabbling in nefarious mischief? That can't possibly be true. The usual suspects on this forum have enlightened us all that is a lie.

[NattyBohChamps04]

On Jan. 3, Iraqi police in Babylon discovered a land attack cruise missile of Iranian design that failed to launch. The use of Iranian supplied munitions by terrorist groups within Iraq and Syria endanger Coalition forces and local residents. The Coalition is appreciative of the efforts of the legitimate security forces in Iraq for their efforts to prevent future attacks.

https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/1743268112018047314?s=20

Are you insinuating the Iranian leadership are dabbling in nefarious mischief? That can't possibly be true. The usual suspects on this forum have enlightened us all that is a lie.

No one on the forum has said anything like that. Maybe brooksie, but even that's pushing it. JFC.

[cradleandshoot]

On Jan. 3, Iraqi police in Babylon discovered a land attack cruise missile of Iranian design that failed to launch. The use of Iranian supplied munitions by terrorist groups within Iraq and Syria endanger Coalition forces and local residents. The Coalition is appreciative of the efforts of the legitimate security forces in Iraq for their efforts to prevent future attacks.

https://x.com/CENTCOM/status/1743268112018047314?s=20

Are you insinuating the Iranian leadership are dabbling in nefarious mischief? That can't possibly be true. The usual suspects on this forum have enlightened us all that is a lie.

No one on the forum has said anything like that. Maybe brooksie, but even that's pushing it. JFC.

So lets back up the bus then. Should Iran be held responsible for the carnage they have caused??? That 6 billion dollars would have helped a lot of US service members that died and lost their arms and legs. Unless you can simply disregard that and cheer for the fact these murdering mother effers in Iran just cashed a huge paycheck?? That is some brilliant freaking logic, simply freaking brilliant..... One positive thing I could say about trump... I betcha he would have never given that 6 billion back to Iran. That's a Joe Biden thang ain't it???