Israel and Zionism

[Kismet]

The subject of this thread is not nearly as important to me as it obviously is to some. I’m not pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian or anti-Palestinian. I’m pro peace. I know that sounds trite and impossible in the current situation, but I’m in favor of anything (give up land, get land, make concessions, etc.) that would result in peace in the Middle East.

What Hamas did on October 7 was horrific. No reasonable person could disagree with that. But the Israeli response to try to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age and kill every member of Hamas is not exactly designed to win friends and influence people. We didn’t kill every German or Japanese soldier in World War II. To me, it seems excessive to have an announced strategy to kill every single member of the enemy. The recent event where Israeli soldiers killed three unarmed shirtless men waving a white flag, evidently because they thought they were members of Hamas, is horrific in and of itself.

There have only been a couple of times in my lifetime when the possibility of peace seemed to exist. But today, we are at the other end of the spectrum. While I certainly am in favor of peace, I frankly don’t think it is a possibility now, or for the foreseeable future. Being generally optimistic and a believer in the good of humanity, I would like to believe that the regular Israeli and Palestinian citizens want a peaceful solution. As unfortunately always seems to be the case in this world, it is the leaders who are the bad guys. We certainly have bad guys on both sides now.

The Middle East situation is not high on my list of concerns, although I certainly don’t want to see it devolve into a world war. I am much more concerned about what is going on in our country, with Trump trying to destroy democracy. I’m more concerned about Ukraine given that Putin clearly wants to reestablish the old Soviet Empire, which would, necessarily, involve a war with NATO that would suck us in.

I understand the Israeli Palestinian situation is extremely important to many people in this country and to some on this board. I don’t mean to demean anybody’s positions which I’m sure are genuinely held.

True. As for Germans and Japanese in WWII - firebombing of Tokyo by USAAF in mid-1945 killed 100,000 in ONE DAY and similar firebombing of Dresden by RAF and USAAF in early 1945 killed 25,000+ over three days.

[cradleandshoot]

The subject of this thread is not nearly as important to me as it obviously is to some. I’m not pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian or anti-Palestinian. I’m pro peace. I know that sounds trite and impossible in the current situation, but I’m in favor of anything (give up land, get land, make concessions, etc.) that would result in peace in the Middle East.

What Hamas did on October 7 was horrific. No reasonable person could disagree with that. But the Israeli response to try to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age and kill every member of Hamas is not exactly designed to win friends and influence people. We didn’t kill every German or Japanese soldier in World War II. To me, it seems excessive to have an announced strategy to kill every single member of the enemy. The recent event where Israeli soldiers killed three unarmed shirtless men waving a white flag, evidently because they thought they were members of Hamas, is horrific in and of itself.

There have only been a couple of times in my lifetime when the possibility of peace seemed to exist. But today, we are at the other end of the spectrum. While I certainly am in favor of peace, I frankly don’t think it is a possibility now, or for the foreseeable future. Being generally optimistic and a believer in the good of humanity, I would like to believe that the regular Israeli and Palestinian citizens want a peaceful solution. As unfortunately always seems to be the case in this world, it is the leaders who are the bad guys. We certainly have bad guys on both sides now.

The Middle East situation is not high on my list of concerns, although I certainly don’t want to see it devolve into a world war. I am much more concerned about what is going on in our country, with Trump trying to destroy democracy. I’m more concerned about Ukraine given that Putin clearly wants to reestablish the old Soviet Empire, which would, necessarily, involve a war with NATO that would suck us in.

I understand the Israeli Palestinian situation is extremely important to many people in this country and to some on this board. I don’t mean to demean anybody’s positions which I’m sure are genuinely held.

True. As for Germans and Japanese in WWII - firebombing of Tokyo by USAAF in mid-1945 killed 100,000 in ONE DAY and similar firebombing of Dresden by RAF and USAAF in early 1945 killed 25,000+ over three days.

Glad you brought up Tokyo and Dresden. Those were vengeance bombings that had zero benefit from any tactical military standpoint. The bombs were designed to do exactly what they succeeded in doing, they caused devastating firestorms that consumed many buildings of no military or strategic use to the axis. That is why Sherman said war is hell. He brought all kinds of hell onto the south while proceeding on his march to the sea. I don't know the sentiments of the people of Atlanta today but I know Sherman wasn't a hero to the folks that lived down south..

[OCanada]

... So tell me about Truah. I assume you just forgot it in your reply. It is exactly what people like you do, ignore the reality and try and turn the tables and attention away from accountability. Intellectually dishonest whelps.

Israel just goes along ignoring Torah, international law, morality every bit as much as the Arab nations.

What is Truah and how are the Israelis ignoring Torah law?

T’ruah brings the Torah’s ideals of human dignity, equality, and justice to life by empowering rabbis and cantors to be moral voices and to lead Jewish communities in advancing democracy and human rights for all people in the United States, Israel, and the occupied Palestinian territories.
There is an organization named Truah Rabbi. The actions of the Israeli government over decades have violated Torah in these areas and others. The Nation State Law is a violation for example.

[OCanada]

There is quite a lot of people trying to white wash the history. Bengie amd the government have tried to make anything not supportive of the government antisemitic. You fit right in. Ignoring what is inconvenient and deflecting. You are precisely why more attention needs to be paid to correcting the PR of the last 70+ years and uncovering a more accurate picture in order to achieve peace.

You think the path to peace is rehashing the path, and sorting through who did what bad thing when?

You keep ripping the forum apart for "not understanding the issues".

OCanada, FFS, are you telling us that you don't understand that the two sides have two completely different stories when it comes to this land and how it was handled over many years?

It would be nice if i did ot have to constantly repeat myself. If you refer bsck to one of my very early posts i noted this conflict arises bcs it is a fight over land. Israel and its zionists want all the land w no Palestinians on it. Just prior to statehood they began to push Palestinians off their land. When war broke out they told them to leave but promised when the war ended they had “the right of return” but they did not permit it. The Palestine want the land they controlled to be restored including land occupied by illegal settlements or seized by settlers. It is one big reason thete cannot be a one state solution. That and the Jewish population would become a minority population if democracy actually existed. Israel has ruled out a two state solution,

I don’t think a disagreement w you i sm ripping the forum apart. I do think there are a few people who xo not know the conflict very well. Reciting events or dates does not really get to the heart of it. I do understand and have said so i have been very open in my belief Israel needs peace its reliance on power and more power is not the right path. The Gordian knot of land had to be cut. I have more open about my personal stake on this issue than anyone here. Cards on the table. If i take your point i totally agree a change in behavior and approach will be needed to achieve peace

[Matnum PI]

T’ruah brings the Torah’s ideals of human dignity, equality, and justice to life by empowering rabbis and cantors to be moral voices and to lead Jewish communities in advancing democracy and human rights for all people in the United States, Israel, and the occupied Palestinian territories.
There is an organization named Truah Rabbi. The actions of the Israeli government over decades have violated Torah in these areas and others. The Nation State Law is a violation for example.

T'ruah: Never heard of the organization. Thanks.
The Nation State Law is a violation of Torah Law? How is that?

[a fan]

I have more open about my personal stake on this issue than anyone here. Cards on the table.

My daughter plays every day with a daughter of a Palestinian family. Two of my very best industry friends are Jewish. All of these lovely people are sick of this stupid conflict, and are willing to do anything for peace, and to stop the pointless bloodshed at the hands of the psychopaths "in charge" of both sides.

If i take your point i totally agree a change in behavior and approach will be needed to achieve peace

Yes! This is why I say you don't need to "understand the conflict".....getting bogged down in childish details is why nothing has changed in 70 years. You have to ignore all the stupid, pointless claims of who owned what when. Or worse, who killed who...and when. And focus on: what do we do to fix this in 2024?

I'm in total agreement that the increased settlements is the work of a freaking psychopath. Basically being a provactive ***hole for the sake of being a provocative ***hole.

The Israelis need to get rid of corrupt nutjob Netanyahu. And the Palestinians need to find a real leader.

Neither of these changes are easy.

First step, imho....the UN needs to step in and run Gaza. I can't think of any other way to cut the knot you refer to......

[jhu72]

Real antisemitism is on the rise, but this isn't it!

Why is this not real antisemitism?

... a pollster provoking, fishing for the response he/she wants until he/she gets the response he/she wants, is not a measure of the "thing". Interesting that there was no one he asked that said, "go away I am too busy." No one he asked said no. This is stagged, put up nonsense, propaganda of the dumbest kind.

Maybe. I have family in the San Fran area, friends in the area, have spoken to people about what is going on in the area and i have no reason to believe this is staged. But who knows...

Stagged only in the sense that these students were being prompted to agree with the bozo doing the questioning, choice of response being limited by the pollster pushing for the response he wanted. Not stagged in the sense that these students were opposed to what was going on in Gaza -- the massive loss of Palestinian life. There is no question in my mind that the Palestinian civilian situation is scoring lots of points, is seen very sympathetically by these students. If the situation was reversed, the Israeli civilians would be seen as sympathetically by these students. There is a difference however, these students would not be called Islamophobic! This was a very poor example of antisemitism.

This is not to say antisemitism is not on the rise. The vector is white supremacy being promulgated from the right by people who have felt this way a very long time. It is not liberal arts curriculum based. The people responsible for the video (PragerU) don't care about Jews or Israel (other than as stars in their End Times Christian fantasy / fetish.) These are right wing propagandist aligned with the republiCON party.

[cradleandshoot]

There should be a ceasefire and humanitarian aide should flow into Gaza under simple conditions. Hamas agrees to unconditional surrender, gives up all its weapons, releases all hostages and agrees to stop all rocket attacks originating from Gaza. Every square inch of underground tunnels are destroyed and the terrorist military infrastructure in Gaza has to be dismantled. Those may seem like harsh terms but are reasonable and realistic given what Hamas just did. The Israeli military has Hamas on the run and confused and disorganized with little organized command and control left. Why wouldn't they desperately want a ceasefire to try and catch their breath and regroup where possible? I don't see the Israeli military allowing that happen anytime soon.

[jhu72]

There should be a ceasefire and humanitarian aide should flow into Gaza under simple conditions. Hamas agrees to unconditional surrender, gives up all its weapons, releases all hostages and agrees to stop all rocket attacks originating from Gaza. Every square inch of underground tunnels are destroyed and the terrorist military infrastructure in Gaza has to be dismantled. Those may seem like harsh terms but are reasonable and realistic given what Hamas just did. The Israeli military has Hamas on the run and confused and disorganized with little organized command and control left. Why wouldn't they desperately want a ceasefire to try and catch their breath and regroup where possible? I don't see the Israeli military allowing that happen anytime soon.

... the UN passed a resolution asking for another cease fire. The US abstained - sending a message patience is running out.

[cradleandshoot]

There should be a ceasefire and humanitarian aide should flow into Gaza under simple conditions. Hamas agrees to unconditional surrender, gives up all its weapons, releases all hostages and agrees to stop all rocket attacks originating from Gaza. Every square inch of underground tunnels are destroyed and the terrorist military infrastructure in Gaza has to be dismantled. Those may seem like harsh terms but are reasonable and realistic given what Hamas just did. The Israeli military has Hamas on the run and confused and disorganized with little organized command and control left. Why wouldn't they desperately want a ceasefire to try and catch their breath and regroup where possible? I don't see the Israeli military allowing that happen anytime soon.

... the UN passed a resolution asking for another cease fire. The US abstained - sending a message patience is running out.

I don't think the UN will have much of a say ultimately in what Israel decides to do. I don't think the all out Israeli bombing campaign will go on for too much longer. Then it will switch to a ground strategy that will brutal and time consuming but will achieve its stated objective. That being removing the threat by Hamas of being a functional threat to Israel. That will be the down and dirty part of this war.

[jhu72]

That's one of the central points of the podcast. In a vacuum, correct. But when given context, especially context you've lived through, what is happening in Gaza makes substantially more sense.

Thanks for NYT article, especially the poll discussion. The poll itself didn't surprise me even a little. The discussion helped to organize my thoughts. I basically agree with the commentators read of the younger generations' feelings. I don't see any antisemitism in their feelings. They have a problem with the Israeli government, not jews themselves. They do not believe that the government has been interested in pursuing peace over the past few decades, or that the government is particularly democratic. I share this view with them. It might be possible to change some of this ill feeling with these younger folks simply by getting rid of the current government and get a government that is more clearly in favor of democracy. The same way they would like someone younger than Joe Biden, a younger PM and cabinet probably wouldn't hurt.

Just my thoughts.

[jhu72]

There should be a ceasefire and humanitarian aide should flow into Gaza under simple conditions. Hamas agrees to unconditional surrender, gives up all its weapons, releases all hostages and agrees to stop all rocket attacks originating from Gaza. Every square inch of underground tunnels are destroyed and the terrorist military infrastructure in Gaza has to be dismantled. Those may seem like harsh terms but are reasonable and realistic given what Hamas just did. The Israeli military has Hamas on the run and confused and disorganized with little organized command and control left. Why wouldn't they desperately want a ceasefire to try and catch their breath and regroup where possible? I don't see the Israeli military allowing that happen anytime soon.

... the UN passed a resolution asking for another cease fire. The US abstained - sending a message patience is running out.

I don't think the UN will have much of a say ultimately in what Israel decides to do. I don't think the all out Israeli bombing campaign will go on for too much longer. Then it will switch to a ground strategy that will brutal and time consuming but will achieve its stated objective. That being removing the threat by Hamas of being a functional threat to Israel. That will be the down and dirty part of this war.

... I think the relevant part of the UN vote wasn't the vote passing, it was the US abstaining and NOT VETOING, or voting NO, which is the Israeli position. The US split with the Israeli position but not in a way that hurt Israel significantly. US was sending a message to Israel and the world. Our patience is running out. The last time the UN attempted to get a similar resolution passed, the US vetoed it!

[PizzaSnake]

There should be a ceasefire and humanitarian aide should flow into Gaza under simple conditions. Hamas agrees to unconditional surrender, gives up all its weapons, releases all hostages and agrees to stop all rocket attacks originating from Gaza. Every square inch of underground tunnels are destroyed and the terrorist military infrastructure in Gaza has to be dismantled. Those may seem like harsh terms but are reasonable and realistic given what Hamas just did. The Israeli military has Hamas on the run and confused and disorganized with little organized command and control left. Why wouldn't they desperately want a ceasefire to try and catch their breath and regroup where possible? I don't see the Israeli military allowing that happen anytime soon.

Were it so simple. Hamas is an idea, an ideology, that, unfortunately, is getting stronger with every 2000 lb. bomb.

Hard to kill ideas. Look at the Confederacy and the revanchist “Lost Cause” in this country. Been a few years and it still exists. All of the base closings serve to fan the embers.

[runrussellrun]

The subject of this thread is not nearly as important to me as it obviously is to some. I’m not pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian or anti-Palestinian. I’m pro peace. I know that sounds trite and impossible in the current situation, but I’m in favor of anything (give up land, get land, make concessions, etc.) that would result in peace in the Middle East.

What Hamas did on October 7 was horrific. No reasonable person could disagree with that. But the Israeli response to try to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age and kill every member of Hamas is not exactly designed to win friends and influence people. We didn’t kill every German or Japanese soldier in World War II. Plenty of "civilians", on purpose. Dresden/A bombs. Hey, they could have surrendered. To me, it seems excessive to have an announced strategy to kill every single member of the enemy. The recent event where Israeli soldiers killed three unarmed shirtless men waving a white flag, evidently because they thought they were members of Hamas, is horrific in and of itself. see George Carlin......thousands of years fighting over something as real as casper the ghost or whatever that island Wonder Woman is from.

There have only been a couple of times in my lifetime when the possibility of peace seemed to exist. But today, we are at the other end of the spectrum. While I certainly am in favor of peace, I frankly don’t think it is a possibility now, or for the foreseeable future. Being generally optimistic and a believer in the good of humanity, I would like to believe that the regular Israeli and Palestinian citizens want a peaceful solution. As unfortunately always seems to be the case in this world, it is the leaders who are the bad guys. We certainly have bad guys on both sides now.

The Middle East situation is not high on my list of concerns, although I certainly don’t want to see it devolve into a world war. I am much more concerned about what is going on in our country, with Trump trying to destroy democracy. I’m more concerned about Ukraine given that Putin clearly wants to reestablish the old Soviet Empire, which would, necessarily, involve a war with NATO that would suck us in.

I understand the Israeli Palestinian situation is extremely important to many people in this country and to some on this board. I don’t mean to demean anybody’s positions which I’m sure are genuinely held.

[OCanada]

T’ruah brings the Torah’s ideals of human dignity, equality, and justice to life by empowering rabbis and cantors to be moral voices and to lead Jewish communities in advancing democracy and human rights for all people in the United States, Israel, and the occupied Palestinian territories.
There is an organization named Truah Rabbi. The actions of the Israeli government over decades have violated Torah in these areas and others. The Nation State Law is a violation for example.

T'ruah: Never heard of the organization. Thanks.
The Nation State Law is a violation of Torah Law? How is that?

I am traveling and pressed for time. This will give a good start, i can pick up after i return.

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/176 ... -democracy

Here is an excellent book

https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Hebre ... C62&sr=8-7

[Matnum PI]

Stagged only in the sense that these students were being prompted to agree with the bozo doing the questioning, choice of response being limited by the pollster pushing for the response he wanted... These are right wing propagandist aligned with the republiCON party.

Agreed. I don't anticipate this "study" going into any scientific journals. I'd also be curious to see what would happen if they said they were fundraising to kill Palestinians. Maybe this exercise is saying more about peer pressure than antisemitism.

[Matnum PI]

... The same way they would like someone younger than Joe Biden, a younger PM and cabinet probably wouldn't hurt...

Joe lived through a big piece of the creation of the Modern State of Israel, was in politics for a large bunch, met some of the towering figures. How does that not profoundly shape your perspective? Versus a college student with, to be kind, substantially less personal experience.

[youthathletics]

Brooklyn’s friends rioting in NYC. When you give a mouse a cookie, on full display. Rioting for dominance, not protest…you make the call.


https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1739434 ... a82I2GssRg

[Brooklyn]

Brooklyn’s friends rioting in NYC. When you give a mouse a cookie, on full display. Rioting for dominance, not protest…you make the call.


https://x.com/rawsalerts/status/1739434 ... a82I2GssRg

Am hesitant to reply on this thread given the venom here but I'll ask just the same: was this the rally called for by Jewish Voice for Peace:

https://www.instagram.com/jewishvoiceforpeace/?hl=en

Wow. 1.1 million followers!

NYC's BLM was awarded several million because of the police violence in 2020. I wonder how much JVP will get for this.

[old salt]

The Tinker Bell Two State Solution. Fantasies do not provide security guarantees.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2023/12/ ... rs-return/

The Peace Processors Return

by ELLIOTT ABRAMS, December 28, 2023

The true believers in a ‘peace-minded Palestinian state’ are clapping their hands, but no one in Israel believes in this Tinker Bell.

Middle East peace processing is a great career, or has been for a small but resolute group. Never successful but never daunted, immune to reality, unaffected by wars or elections, they never flag. That means they never stop going to nice conferences and writing articles about “the two-state solution.” Not even now.

The slaughter of Israelis by Hamas on October 7 has greatly affected Israeli opinion. Israelis on the left, including some of those living in the kibbutzim that were attacked, have understood the meaning of the event: A Palestinian state today is simply too dangerous. A couple of weeks ago, President Isaac Herzog of Israel, a former head of the Labor Party, called upon the United States to stop talking about this:

What I want to urge is against just saying ‘two-state solution’. Why? Because there is an emotional chapter here that must be dealt with. My nation is bereaving. My nation is in trauma. In order to get back to the idea of dividing the land, of negotiating peace or talking to the Palestinians, etc., one has to deal first and foremost with the emotional trauma that we are going through and the need and demand for a full sense of security for all people.

Dismissing Herzog’s appeal, two of the longest-serving peace processors, former State Department officials Daniel Kurtzer and Aaron David Miller, are at it again. In an article in Foreign Affairs dated December 22, Kurtzer and Miller want to “create an independent Palestinian state” as the only solution to conflict in the Middle East.

Here’s how: Their plan “would require the PA to run fair and free elections in the West Bank and Gaza and to convince voters that it really will aim to end Israel’s occupation and create an independent Palestinian state. Should it succeed, Israel would also need to demonstrate its commitment — in words and actions on the ground — to advancing a two-state outcome.”

They acknowledge there will be Israeli resistance: “Israel’s electorate had shifted to the right well before this war. Hamas’s terrorism may well encourage a further radicalization of the Israeli population.” Now think about that characterization. Some Israelis were not keen on an independent Palestinian state because they’ve been living with Palestinian terrorism and intifadas and rockets from Gaza for decades. Now that view is called “radical” and if more Israelis feel that way after the massacres of October 7, that isn’t common sense or self-defense; it’s “further radicalization.”

Our two peace processors do throw in a small bow to reality. They acknowledge that “addressing legitimate Israeli security concerns” must be part of the picture — but they give no sense of what they think those concerns might be and how they might be “addressed.” They acknowledge that “even if Netanyahu leaves office, no other current top politician in Israel appears eager to embark down a path of peace. And there are no Palestinian leaders with the gravitas and political weight to engage seriously with Israel in the aftermath of the conflict.” But they do not draw the obvious conclusion from those two sentences: Well, okay, so that’s dead.

But old peace processors never die, nor do they ever allow mere logic to upset them. Kurtzer and Miller conclude that it’s up to the United States to turn floss into gold: President Biden “can make it clearer to the Israelis that the continued strength of their relationship with Washington rests on Israel understanding that it cannot reoccupy Gaza, and that their ultimate security guarantee will be a peace agreement with a similarly peace-minded Palestinian state.” In other words, cram it down their throats.

The last few words in their formula are breathtaking: “a similarly peace-minded Palestinian state.” This is the greatest example in history of the Tinker Bell effect. Remember the scene in Peter Pan: “If you believe, wherever you are, clap your hands, and she’ll hear you. Clap! Clap! Don’t let Tink die! Clap!” Wikipedia describes the Tinker Bell effect as “the phenomenon of thinking something exists only because people believe in it.” What better description of the phenomenon can there be than thinking that Israel will be secure because there will be “a similarly peace-minded Palestinian state.” Kurtzer and Miller are clapping their hands, but no one in Israel believes in this Tinker Bell.

This is not a calumny against Palestinians. Opinion polls show that many do want peace, though many do not. In a December 13 poll by the most reliable Palestinian pollster, roughly three-quarters of respondents said Hamas was correct to launch its attack, and Hamas was the most popular political party or group. It gets worse: “When asked about the best way to end occupation and establish an independent state, the public was divided into three groups: a majority of 63% . . . said it was armed struggle; 20% said it was negotiations; and 13% said it was popular non-violent resistance.”

And what are the “most vital Palestinian goals?” when pollsters asked?

43% believe that the first most vital Palestinian goal should be to end Israeli occupation in the areas occupied in 1967 and build a Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital. By contrast, 36% believe the first most vital goal should be to obtain the right of return of refugees to their 1948 towns and villages, 11% believe that the first and most vital goal should be to build a pious or moral individual and a religious society, one that applies all Islamic teachings and 7% believes it should be to establish a democratic political system that respects freedoms and rights of Palestinians.

Seven percent think building a Palestinian democracy is vital. Building a Palestinian state gets the top result — but recall that most Palestinians think the way to do that is “armed struggle.” The “right of return” means ending Israel as a Jewish state by having millions of Palestinian “refugees” move there. The U.N. agency for Palestinians, UNRWA, says there are 5.9 million Palestine refugees.

In some highly abstract sense, it is true that Israel’s “ultimate security guarantee will be a peace agreement with a similarly peace-minded Palestinian state.” That is true in the same sense that America’s “ultimate security guarantee” would be a similarly peace-minded China and Russia. But like this imaginary Palestinian nirvana, they don’t exist. Fantasies do not provide security guarantees.

From everything we can see about Palestinian politics and public opinion, basing Israeli security on dreams about Palestinian pacifism is nuts. Moreover, Iran has under way a vast effort to build proxy forces and strengthen every terrorist group — from the Houthis to Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad to Hamas — to attack Israel by stocking the groups with guns and money. That is the problem with the two-state solution: No one can explain how a sovereign and independent Palestinian state will not constitute a grave security threat to Israel (and Jordan as well, by the way). Kurtzer and Miller certainly don’t explain it; like all the peace processors, they wish it away, conjuring up a mythical Palestine that loves peace. If you believe, clap your hands!

This is going to be a hard sell in Israel. It ought to be an equally hard sell in Washington.