Israel and Zionism

[Baducchi]

... me too, until I started to research the history. I am guessing you never heard of the Deir Yassin massacre. Since the late 1800s period each side has been taking eyes for eyes, with the number of eyes taken at one time ever increasing. Many more Palestinian eyes have been taken since 1948.

Deir Yassin was in 1948. i.e. This is not such recent history. And after it happened, Jews, let alone Israelis, were also bothered by the actions. To this day, Israel is not proud of the actions taken on that day. Baruch Goldstein did what Baruch Goldstein did and you can find Jews who praise him for his actions but overwhelmingly, Israelis and Jews alike, condemn his actions. Overwhelming and with no reservation. Palestinians cannot say the same. Not in the same way. As for more Palestinians being killed since 1948 than Jews, this is true and Israel does not feel any shame for winning more, losing less, for being able to protect themselves. That is why Israel was created in the first place. For a couple thousand years, Jews died or just shuffled along to their new home, their new country. They did this for a very long time. Those days are gone. Unapologetically, those days are gone.

[a fan]

Israel wants all the land. Always has.

And the Palestinians haven't?

What's YOUR solution? I gave mine.

[Matnum PI]

https://twitter.com/AmiHorowitz/status/ ... _TV8g&s=19

[jhu72]

... me too, until I started to research the history. I am guessing you never heard of the Deir Yassin massacre. Since the late 1800s period each side has been taking eyes for eyes, with the number of eyes taken at one time ever increasing. Many more Palestinian eyes have been taken since 1948.

Deir Yassin was in 1948. i.e. This is not such recent history. And after it happened, Jews, let alone Israelis, were also bothered by the actions. To this day, Israel is not proud of the actions taken on that day. Baruch Goldstein did what Baruch Goldstein did and you can find Jews who praise him for his actions but overwhelmingly, Israelis and Jews alike, condemn his actions. Overwhelming and with no reservation. Palestinians cannot say the same. Not in the same way. As for more Palestinians being killed since 1948 than Jews, this is true and Israel does not feel any shame for winning more, losing less, for being able to protect themselves. That is why Israel was created in the first place. For a couple thousand years, Jews died or just shuffled along to their new home, their new country. They did this for a very long time. Those days are gone. Unapologetically, those days are gone.

... I am fully aware of the when, where, what Deir Yassin was and what various Jewish, Arab Individuals and Israeli officials have said and think about the event. Many Jews and a few Israeli officials are to be commended. There where Jews at the time of the attack who tried to intervene. There are those who know the truth and tell it. However to this day there remain Israelis, who claim it never happened. To this day there exist Israelis trying to cover it up. There are military archives containing eyewitness accounts, 75 years later, being withheld from the public by the government. There have been Israeli soldiers, witnesses, of the time who have been hounded by the deniers, both everyday Jewish citizens and the government, because they were too good of a witness against their own countrymen.

I am not convinced how sincere current Israeli condemnation is of the Deir Yassin events. I doubt overwhelming. But certainly in the past, closer to the time of the actual events there was very significant. I am sure there were Palestinians who were horrified by Oct. 7 events, probably more than you would give credit, certainly not as many as have been celebrating the retribution.

Yes it was a long time ago. But no one seems to ever forget, they just go on taking eyes.

[jhu72]

https://twitter.com/AmiHorowitz/status/ ... _TV8g&s=19

This doesn't say anything about antisemitism. This is PragerU propaganda. I hope this clown wasn't expecting to actually collect on any of that money. When I was in college, more than once did I pledge money when approached by some person on campus trying to get me to join some effort. Never paid up.

Stop killing so many Palestinian civilians, stop taking their land per the UN perspective, and you will see interest in this faux "antisemitism" fade. Real antisemitism is on the rise, but this isn't it!

[Matnum PI]

Real antisemitism is on the rise, but this isn't it!

Why is this not real antisemitism?

[jhu72]

Real antisemitism is on the rise, but this isn't it!

Why is this not real antisemitism?

... a pollster provoking, fishing for the response he/she wants until he/she gets the response he/she wants, is not a measure of the "thing". Interesting that there was no one he asked that said, "go away I am too busy." No one he asked said no. This is stagged, put up nonsense, propaganda of the dumbest kind.

[OCanada]

... me too, until I started to research the history. I am guessing you never heard of the Deir Yassin massacre. Since the late 1800s period each side has been taking eyes for eyes, with the number of eyes taken at one time ever increasing. Many more Palestinian eyes have been taken since 1948.

Deir Yassin was in 1948. i.e. This is not such recent history. And after it happened, Jews, let alone Israelis, were also bothered by the actions. To this day, Israel is not proud of the actions taken on that day. Baruch Goldstein did what Baruch Goldstein did and you can find Jews who praise him for his actions but overwhelmingly, Israelis and Jews alike, condemn his actions. Overwhelming and with no reservation. Palestinians cannot say the same. Not in the same way. As for more Palestinians being killed since 1948 than Jews, this is true and Israel does not feel any shame for winning more, losing less, for being able to protect themselves. That is why Israel was created in the first place. For a couple thousand years, Jews died or just shuffled along to their new home, their new country. They did this for a very long time. Those days are gone. Unapologetically, those days are gone.

Selective interpretation? Israel was created why?
Your reply was the yhe kind of simpering apologetic i expected. Ducking issues, making blanket statements of support and ignoring what is necessary to achieve peace An apologist for Israel not a concern for the killing that goes on and on. There is quite a lot of people trying to white wash the history. Bengie amd the government have tried to make anything not supportive of the government antisemitic. You fit right in. Ignoring what is inconvenient and deflecting. You are precisely why more attention needs to be paid to correcting the PR of the last 70+ years and uncovering a more accurate picture in order to achieve peace. So tell me about Truah. I assume you just forgot it in your reply. It is exactly what people like you do, ignore the reality and try and turn the tables and attention away from accountability. Intellectually dishonest whelps.

Israel just goes along ignoring Torah, international law, morality every bit as much as the Arab nations.

[a fan]

There is quite a lot of people trying to white wash the history. Bengie amd the government have tried to make anything not supportive of the government antisemitic. You fit right in. Ignoring what is inconvenient and deflecting. You are precisely why more attention needs to be paid to correcting the PR of the last 70+ years and uncovering a more accurate picture in order to achieve peace.

You think the path to peace is rehashing the path, and sorting through who did what bad thing when?

You keep ripping the forum apart for "not understanding the issues".

OCanada, FFS, are you telling us that you don't understand that the two sides have two completely different stories when it comes to this land and how it was handled over many years?

[PizzaSnake]

There is quite a lot of people trying to white wash the history. Bengie amd the government have tried to make anything not supportive of the government antisemitic. You fit right in. Ignoring what is inconvenient and deflecting. You are precisely why more attention needs to be paid to correcting the PR of the last 70+ years and uncovering a more accurate picture in order to achieve peace.

You think the path to peace is rehashing the path, and sorting through who did what bad thing when?

You keep ripping the forum apart for "not understanding the issues".

OCanada, FFS, are you telling us that you don't understand that the two sides have two completely different stories when it comes to this land and how it was handled over many years?

And both are wrong. Why is it the job of the US to untangle this Gordian knot, and why the slavish endorsement of one side?

Not our business, not our fight. Anyone wants that fight, move there and have at it. We’ve expended too much time, money, blood and prestige.

Enough.

[Matnum PI]

Real antisemitism is on the rise, but this isn't it!

Why is this not real antisemitism?

... a pollster provoking, fishing for the response he/she wants until he/she gets the response he/she wants, is not a measure of the "thing". Interesting that there was no one he asked that said, "go away I am too busy." No one he asked said no. This is stagged, put up nonsense, propaganda of the dumbest kind.

Maybe. I have family in the San Fran area, friends in the area, have spoken to people about what is going on in the area and i have no reason to believe this is staged. But who knows...

[Matnum PI]

... So tell me about Truah. I assume you just forgot it in your reply. It is exactly what people like you do, ignore the reality and try and turn the tables and attention away from accountability. Intellectually dishonest whelps.

Israel just goes along ignoring Torah, international law, morality every bit as much as the Arab nations.

What is Truah and how are the Israelis ignoring Torah law?

[Matnum PI]

Today's NY Times The Daily is pretty interesting. Speaks to the perspectives of Americans on Israel by age group and why they hold these perspectives: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/podc ... el-us.html.

[Kismet]

Dropping many 2000 LB dumb munitions on residential areas is never a good look for ANY age group.

[Matnum PI]

That's one of the central points of the podcast. In a vacuum, correct. But when given context, especially context you've lived through, what is happening in Gaza makes substantially more sense.

[Kismet]

That's one of the central points of the podcast. In a vacuum, correct. But when given context, especially context you've lived through, what is happening in Gaza makes substantially more sense.

Perhaps to you, maybe. But not many others who have a much less favorable view of what appears to be indiscriminate bombing with little regard for collateral damage and civilian casualties.

[Seacoaster(1)]

That's one of the central points of the podcast. In a vacuum, correct. But when given context, especially context you've lived through, what is happening in Gaza makes substantially more sense.

Perhaps to you, maybe. But not many others who have a much less favorable view of what appears to be indiscriminate bombing with little regard for collateral damage and civilian casualties.

Maybe it is just that the IDF and governing coalition agree that, at its core, the Gaza population and Hamas are effectively coextensive. That is what Baducci was intimating when he described elections in Gaza. I’m not saying it’s right; I’m suggesting that is the overall conclusion and ethos there.

[runrussellrun]

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Posts supporting terrorist groups and/or condoning the acts of these terrorist groups is prohibited by the FanLax Forum. Hamas is a terrorist organization explicitly dedicated to the destruction of the State of Israel. FanLax does not care if you agree or disagree with this statement. Posting links to websites that attempt to refute this fact does not change the terrorist status of these organizations any more than links to flat earth websites changes the roundness of the planet earth. Posts supporting terrorist groups including Hamas and/or condoning the acts of these terrorist groups is prohibited by the FanLax Forum and will not be tolerated.

you're not wrong........far far the mouse is one twisted critter . created by HAMass. would providing a link to this reeDICKyoulous "childrens" indoctrination show be "not tolerated" , or not allowed ? It certainly would provide "proof" of their views towards a religious group.

"some" called the father of a rape VICTIM....a "terrorist" (loudon country, VA school meeting )

Point: Can you provide a list of "terrorist" groups that fanlax will not be tolerated ? IE: southern poverty law center or some US 'agency'.

get over yourselves, fanlaxers.......let the creeps do what they do best.....spew junk. banning speech is lame.......

.....so is adding new "rules" without posters knowledge, or consent (see above), especially, when NOT providing a source of terrorist organizations.

do Loudon county parents groups get the same "terrorists" not to be tolerated status ? if only we knew which organizations get that status? Certainly FBI pos Garland thinks rape victims parents are terrorists.

[Baducchi]

Maybe it is just that the IDF and governing coalition agree that, at its core, the Gaza population and Hamas are effectively coextensive. That is what Baducci was intimating when he described elections in Gaza. I’m not saying it’s right; I’m suggesting that is the overall conclusion and ethos there.

Exactly. The point is that what some deem to be "indiscriminate bombing with little regard for collateral damage and civilian casualties", others understand to be something very different due to context, due to having a broader, some would say more accurate, perspective.

[njbill]

The subject of this thread is not nearly as important to me as it obviously is to some. I’m not pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli, pro-Palestinian or anti-Palestinian. I’m pro peace. I know that sounds trite and impossible in the current situation, but I’m in favor of anything (give up land, get land, make concessions, etc.) that would result in peace in the Middle East.

What Hamas did on October 7 was horrific. No reasonable person could disagree with that. But the Israeli response to try to bomb Gaza back to the Stone Age and kill every member of Hamas is not exactly designed to win friends and influence people. We didn’t kill every German or Japanese soldier in World War II. To me, it seems excessive to have an announced strategy to kill every single member of the enemy. The recent event where Israeli soldiers killed three unarmed shirtless men waving a white flag, evidently because they thought they were members of Hamas, is horrific in and of itself.

There have only been a couple of times in my lifetime when the possibility of peace seemed to exist. But today, we are at the other end of the spectrum. While I certainly am in favor of peace, I frankly don’t think it is a possibility now, or for the foreseeable future. Being generally optimistic and a believer in the good of humanity, I would like to believe that the regular Israeli and Palestinian citizens want a peaceful solution. As unfortunately always seems to be the case in this world, it is the leaders who are the bad guys. We certainly have bad guys on both sides now.

The Middle East situation is not high on my list of concerns, although I certainly don’t want to see it devolve into a world war. I am much more concerned about what is going on in our country, with Trump trying to destroy democracy. I’m more concerned about Ukraine given that Putin clearly wants to reestablish the old Soviet Empire, which would, necessarily, involve a war with NATO that would suck us in.

I understand the Israeli Palestinian situation is extremely important to many people in this country and to some on this board. I don’t mean to demean anybody’s positions which I’m sure are genuinely held.