Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Baducchi]

I still don't understand why this is the concern of the US...

There's more than one answer to this but one is that Hamas hates the US in a similar fashion to how much they hate Israel. We're safely on the other side of the world but Hamas and other jihadist groups are not an entity, no matter where they're located, that we want to be gaining in power.

Semi-separately, not just Hamas but average Palestinians celebrated 9/11. Not in Gaza, not hidden from sight, but openly in the Old City of Jerusalem. In numbers. The fact that Hamas won their election with 44% of the votes aside, currently, 72% of Palestinians support what Hamas did on October 7. When the "Hamas" (it was not just Hamas) kidnappers were driving the hostages into Gaza, there were (and are) videos after videos of the Gazans celebrating in a frenzy, in large numbers, the capture of these Israelis. Yes, Hamas and the Palestinians are two different groups and... Let's not pretend that they are so different. The overlap is enormous.

[PizzaSnake]

This is an intractable situation. Better to get out from between the "dog and the tree." I still don't understand why this is the concern of the US. All parties to this debacle have, at some point, acted in bad faith. So, why stay involved? Are we gluttons for punishment?

Only answer I have is that Carter and Clinton were the only two people who got them anywhere close to a peace & land deal.

That, and as I said before: if the US steps away, the chances of peace are big fat, zippo, because Israel will be isolated and feel they need to do anything in their power to exist...and will act in a Draconian matter to achieve that goal.

Lefties call for the US to step away entirely...be careful what you ask for here.

I'm all for cutting off military aid, while not stepping away diplomatically.

1st step is to make Gaza livable.

2nd, make it flourish.

3rd, identify a negotiating partner, and work the problem.

Nope. Vetoes at the UN are causing the US a lot of problems. Also, half-azzed. Do it or don't. No half-measures.

P.S. Jimmy Carter was the last competent President. We need more leaders like him. Clinton was just Republican-lite.

[PizzaSnake]

I still don't understand why this is the concern of the US...

There's more than one answer to this but one is that Hamas hates the US in a similar fashion to how much they hate Israel. We're safely on the other side of the world but Hamas and other jihadist groups are not an entity, no matter where they're located, that we want to be gaining in power.

Semi-separately, not just Hamas but average Palestinians celebrated 9/11. Not in Gaza, not hidden from sight, but openly in the Old City of Jerusalem. In numbers. The fact that Hamas won their election with 44% of the votes aside, currently, 72% of Palestinians support what Hamas did on October 7. When the "Hamas" (it was not just Hamas) kidnappers were driving the hostages into Gaza, there were (and are) videos after videos of the Gazans celebrating in a frenzy, in large numbers, the capture of these Israelis. Yes, Hamas and the Palestinians are two different groups and... Let's not pretend that they are so different. The overlap is enormous.

And why is that, pray tell?

[Baducchi]

And why is that, pray tell?

Because Israel, like the US, is western and is not a proponent of Muslim values. Because Israel is a Jewish State and Jewish is not Muslim. Don't forget, this hatred was present well before the modern State of Israel was founded and remains to this day.

[a fan]

This is an intractable situation. Better to get out from between the "dog and the tree." I still don't understand why this is the concern of the US. All parties to this debacle have, at some point, acted in bad faith. So, why stay involved? Are we gluttons for punishment?

Only answer I have is that Carter and Clinton were the only two people who got them anywhere close to a peace & land deal.

That, and as I said before: if the US steps away, the chances of peace are big fat, zippo, because Israel will be isolated and feel they need to do anything in their power to exist...and will act in a Draconian matter to achieve that goal.

Lefties call for the US to step away entirely...be careful what you ask for here.

I'm all for cutting off military aid, while not stepping away diplomatically.

1st step is to make Gaza livable.

2nd, make it flourish.

3rd, identify a negotiating partner, and work the problem.

Nope. Vetoes at the UN are causing the US a lot of problems. Also, half-azzed. Do it or don't. No half-measures.

Half measure?

So either we arm a country, and fund them militarily....or we cut off all diplomatic ties?

You lost me.

[MDlaxfan76]

.

In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Ehud Barak gave a very generous offer (and the world agreed, Jews and Israelis were dumbfounded by the generosity) to Arafat, a two-state solution and Yasser Arafat rejected the offer. How does that work with your supposition that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution? Please, educate us...

No he did not

https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/07/1 ... -pub-82287

Just read this link and while I read lots of frustration and explaining why the two closest call efforts failed, under Carter and Clinton, it is also 100% clear from this recount that what Israel was offering was a two-state peace solution and that Arafat rejected the deal. Did Israel offer enough, did all all issues get resolved? According to this participant, no, the deal was never enough to overcome Arafat's suspicions. But it could have been accepted as a first step toward the outcome...the alternative was a continued terrorist posture. And Arafat chose the latter. He believed that his population was not supportive of accepting the deal.

So, seems to me that Israel's moderate/left wing did try to go down this path but those efforts were not enough to sway Arafat and the PLO which controlled the Palestinian position. I don't think the Palestinians, whether under PLO or Hamas, have ever offered a two-state resolution or security for Israel's ongoing objective to have a safe homeland for Jews. Not in my 67 year lifetime.

But put aside the past failures, if the answer is ever to be a peaceful resolution with two states side by side it is going to require very different leadership on both sides and very different public sentiment from both populations in support...it's not going to happen tomorrow, but steps in that direction could be taken.

[MDlaxfan76]

And why is that, pray tell?

Because Israel, like the US, is western and is not a proponent of Muslim values. Because Israel is a Jewish State and Jewish is not Muslim. Don't forget, this hatred was present well before the modern State of Israel was founded and remains to this day.

I promised to call out all bigotry in the discussion about Brooklyn's (IMO antisemitic) rants.

Baducchi, this reads to me as Islamophobic.

"Muslim values"??? I have plenty of religiously observant Muslim friends who would take great exception to the characterization you imply, that "Muslim values" are antithetical to "western" values.

I'm in agreement with much of your posts but you lose me with this broad brush, which has a long history of ahistorical propaganda in Christian dominated countries.

We can get into a long back and forth on the history of the "hate" and competition that has occurred between various populations who identify differently within the Abrahamic faith traditions, and the various sources of those disagreements, both religiously and through various traumas, but we needn't do that if you didn't really mean this the way I read it.

A discussion of all that could be interesting, but if you didn't mean this to be as I read it, understanding that would be helpful.

[MDlaxfan76]

I still don't understand why this is the concern of the US...

There's more than one answer to this but one is that Hamas hates the US in a similar fashion to how much they hate Israel. We're safely on the other side of the world but Hamas and other jihadist groups are not an entity, no matter where they're located, that we want to be gaining in power.

Semi-separately, not just Hamas but average Palestinians celebrated 9/11. Not in Gaza, not hidden from sight, but openly in the Old City of Jerusalem. In numbers. The fact that Hamas won their election with 44% of the votes aside, currently, 72% of Palestinians support what Hamas did on October 7. When the "Hamas" (it was not just Hamas) kidnappers were driving the hostages into Gaza, there were (and are) videos after videos of the Gazans celebrating in a frenzy, in large numbers, the capture of these Israelis. Yes, Hamas and the Palestinians are two different groups and... Let's not pretend that they are so different. The overlap is enormous.

And why is that, pray tell?

I don't want to speak for you, but let me guess that your point is that the US has been the primary supporter of the State of Israel, the primary external funder of the State of Israel, and, thus, the ally of terrorist Hamas' direct enemy. The numerous and multi-generational traumas experienced by the Palestinians in their displacement by Israel are in part the responsibility of the US, at least certainly in the eyes of the displaced.

It is not really about religious supersessionist views, though certainly religious fervor has been a popular and effective mechanism for violent extremists, whether Muslim, Jewish, Christian (and Hindu, etc).

[Matnum PI]

According to this participant, no, the deal was never enough to overcome Arafat's suspicions...

Do you think there was any (realistic) deal that Arafat would've accepted? Or do you think if Arafat went back to Palestine with anything but Israel out of the Middle East his role as the leader of the PLO would be over?

[MDlaxfan76]

According to this participant, no, the deal was never enough to overcome Arafat's suspicions...

Do you think there was any (realistic) deal that Arafat would've accepted? Or do you think if Arafat went back to Palestine with anything but Israel out of the Middle East his role as the leader of the PLO would be over?

I obviously don't know as I wasn't there, not at Camp David, not in the West Bank etc...BUT I tend to agree with the assessment that at least Arafat likely believed he could not survive a two-state peace deal.

That's why I wrote that "He believed that his population was not supportive of accepting the deal."

and

"if the answer is ever to be a peaceful resolution with two states side by side it is going to require very different leadership on both sides and very different public sentiment from both populations in support...it's not going to happen tomorrow, but steps in that direction could be taken."

That said, I believe that leadership matters a ton, not just in the short term moment, but over years of building sentiment. Arafat had been a fire-breathing terrorist and populist, tough guy leading toughest faction, that's what earned him his support and he did so over decades...the Palestinian political zeitgeist was dominated by this terrorist rhetoric and propaganda. So, they weren't ready to suddenly go the other way...or at least that's what Arafat likely believed. Or, he didn't want a solution.

[Baducchi]

"Muslim values"??? I have plenty of religiously observant Muslim friends who would take great exception to the characterization you imply, that "Muslim values" are antithetical to "western" values... A discussion of all that could be interesting, but if you didn't mean this to be as I read it, understanding that would be helpful.

Islam is not necessarily antithetical to western values. They're just different. And, some aspects, are antithetical. I understand that you have friends who are Muslim (as do I) who, most likely, live in America and, like so many others, are assimilated. Assimilated Muslims, assimilated Jews, assimilated Italians, etc. And that assimilated Muslim, Jew, Italian can claim that they're as Muslim, Jewish, Italian as their counterparts in Saudi Arabia, Mir, or Rome but, realistically, they are not. (I can go off on a tangent here but I will spare you.) Bottom-line, the essence of Islam is G-d centered, is service to Allah-centered, is being a servant to Allah, is modesty (especially for women), etc. Yes, I recognize that there is a spectrum of how Muslims choose to practice Islam and there is also a reality where, for Muslims, Jews, Italians, etc., one cannot ignore that the relevant entity is simply being watered down. I'm not speaking to the water, I'm speaking to the Muslim perspective. With this said...

If it helps, I'm happy to say that Orthodox Muslim values have numerous conflicts with western values.

[Matnum PI]

.

Agreed.

[MDlaxfan76]

"Muslim values"??? I have plenty of religiously observant Muslim friends who would take great exception to the characterization you imply, that "Muslim values" are antithetical to "western" values... A discussion of all that could be interesting, but if you didn't mean this to be as I read it, understanding that would be helpful.

Islam is not necessarily antithetical to western values. They're just different. And, some aspects, are antithetical. I understand that you have friends who are Muslim (as do I) who, most likely, live in America and, like so many others, are assimilated. Assimilated Muslims, assimilated Jews, assimilated Italians, etc. And that assimilated Muslim, Jew, Italian can claim that they're as Muslim, Jewish, Italian as their counterparts in Saudi Arabia, Mir, or Rome but, realistically, they are not. (I can go off on a tangent here but I will spare you.) Bottom-line, the essence of Islam is G-d centered, is service to Allah-centered, is being a servant to Allah, is modesty (especially for women), etc. Yes, I recognize that there is a spectrum of how Muslims choose to practice Islam and there is also a reality where, for Muslims, Jews, Italians, etc., one cannot ignore that the relevant entity is simply being watered down. I'm not speaking to the water, I'm speaking to the Muslim perspective. With this said...

If it helps, I'm happy to say that Orthodox Muslim values have numerous conflicts with western values.

I think you missed "assimilated Christians"; I assume you are aware of the history of Christians, "orthodox" or observant, Christians who have justified horrific actions on their religious beliefs; actions and justifications we would likely agree are "antithetical to (modern) western values". And, not just history, today we have large swaths of Christians across the world (and even here in the US) whose "belief" sets them apart from liberal western values.

When you write: "the essence of Islam is G-d centered, is service to Allah-centered, is being a servant to Allah, is modesty (especially for women), etc.", could you not substitute Allah for say Jesus? Would such "servant" hood be thought as antithetical to western values? Are there not groups of Christians, including here in the US, who subscribe to "modesty (especially for women)", including even the prescribed wearing of specific clothing? Same for some Jews in America?

Meanwhile, in various regions of the world, each of these major Abrahamic faith traditions have sects, large sects, which use their religiosity to justify horrific acts against others of different faith traditions and in policing their own...and back to women, Christians committing genital mutilation, stoning for adultery, etc. And of course, lots of extreme reactions to gender choices. With justifications for such 'found' in sacred texts...and yet others in those faith traditions reject such as inaccurate readings and in conflict with the true spirit of their faith.

So, I'd suggest that none of these religious traditions are inherently antithetical to western values, but people's culture and choices can definitely be in conflict with western values.

And if we mean "western values" to include the thread that values individual rights and choices, fundamental to 'liberal' constitutional democracy, which I think we would include in "western values", we certainly see major violations of these principles committed by various "Christians" around the world. In the name of "God" or "Jesus", just as we do in the name of "Allah".

But other Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whatever can comfortably embrace western values and see their religious faith as in concert with those values. So not inherently antithetical.

[OCanada]

Nope. Does mot begin to solve the problem but does demo how little you understand about it

Right.

Tell me then: why did Hamas slaughter 1,000 people and take hostages this year?

You have all the answers. Why did they do that?

Or better yet: why is Hamas in charge of Gaza, and how does that help Palestinians who want to live in peace?

You slready have sll the infio you need to answer your own question. I have provided you ample information to give you the needed background i formation but you gave rather obviously refused to pursue it. The your posts clearly indicate you are clueless about the origins and dynamics about the conflict. That is on you. As a result your analysis is way out of touch. You have not pursued the knowledge required. You don’t reply to questions. Rather like a middle schooler you ask questions in an apparent i finite tegression which is sophomoric. You duck and cover a lot. I am left with the impression that while you make a great gin you ate not so good at understanding this issue. I have not read anything you posted that has been favorable to anything Arab. You are just another brick in the wall to peace. Waste of time to engage further. When you characterize me would be nice if you got it right. C ya

[Baducchi]

I think you missed "assimilated Christians"... But other Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whatever can comfortably embrace western values and see their religious faith as in concert with those values. So not inherently antithetical.

I happened to be talking about Muslims and, yes, I could have been talking about Jews, Christians, or otherwise. As I spoke to above. I didn't miss Christianity any more than I missed Hindus or anybody else. I'm not going to type every religion. And, yes, orthodox Christians. Numerous orthodox Christian values are very much antithetical to Western values. Keep in mind, Chasidik Jews live comfortably in America. Orthodox Jews living within a western system. But also keep in mind, Chasidik Jews live within Chasidik communities. Why? So they can live in a space that upholds their values, not western values. For America in general, bikinis rule. For orthodox Jews, orthodox Muslims, not so much. That is all I am speaking to. Though the disparities are obviously broader than just bikinis. Western culture puts freedom on a pretty high pedestal. Orthodox Muslims, not as high. And, so you're not triggered, same for orthodox Jews, orthodox Christians, etc. All I am saying is that Western values conflict with orthodox muslims and many, many of the muslims in the Middle East are orthodox. Including Gaza.

[OCanada]

.

In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Ehud Barak gave a very generous offer (and the world agreed, Jews and Israelis were dumbfounded by the generosity) to Arafat, a two-state solution and Yasser Arafat rejected the offer. How does that work with your supposition that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution? Please, educate us...

No he did not

https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/07/1 ... -pub-82287

Just read this link and while I read lots of frustration and explaining why the two closest call efforts failed, under Carter and Clinton, it is also 100% clear from this recount that what Israel was offering was a two-state peace solution and that Arafat rejected the deal. Did Israel offer enough, did all all issues get resolved? According to this participant, no, the deal was never enough to overcome Arafat's suspicions. But it could have been accepted as a first step toward the outcome...the alternative was a continued terrorist posture. And Arafat chose the latter. He believed that his population was not supportive of accepting the deal.

So, seems to me that Israel's moderate/left wing did try to go down this path but those efforts were not enough to sway Arafat and the PLO which controlled the Palestinian position. I don't think the Palestinians, whether under PLO or Hamas, have ever offered a two-state resolution or security for Israel's ongoing objective to have a safe homeland for Jews. Not in my 67 year lifetime.

But put aside the past failures, if the answer is ever to be a peaceful resolution with two states side by side it is going to require very different leadership on both sides and very different public sentiment from both populations in support...it's not going to happen tomorrow, but steps in that direction could be taken.

That was never going to work. It is however a typical Israeli negotiating tactic. Make an offer and then undermine it.

Israeli from the beginning violated compacts. They forced Palestinians from their lands. After creation of the state of Israel they again forced Palestinians from their land bcs of the war. The promised them they could return and gave them receipts. Then they refused fo let them return. The distrust has been built up over decades. It is the land at the heart of the issue. Israel wants all of it w no Palestinians. Not unlike some events in this country. Palestinians would like the promises made at the beginning. The arab nations have not shown they cate about the Palestinians for any reason except as a tool for their own goals. The distrust has a deep base in experience.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-54116567

[Baducchi]

That was never going to work. It is however a typical Israeli negotiating tactic. Make an offer and then undermine it.

Israeli from the beginning violated compacts. They forced Palestinians from their lands. After creation of the state of Israel they again forced Palestinians from their land bcs of the war. The promised them they could return and gave them receipts. Then they refused fo let them return. The distrust has been built up over decades. It is the land at the heart of the issue. Israel wants all of it w no Palestinians. Not unlike some events in this country. Palestinians would like the promises made at the beginning. The arab nations have not shown they cate about the Palestinians for any reason except as a tool for their own goals. The distrust has a deep base in experience.

You speak repeatedly about Israel and the Israelis, how they are not worthy of trust, that they are an extremely difficult, if not impossible, partner to work with. Do you lay any blame on the Palestinians?

[MDlaxfan76]

I think you missed "assimilated Christians"... But other Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whatever can comfortably embrace western values and see their religious faith as in concert with those values. So not inherently antithetical.

I happened to be talking about Muslims and, yes, I could have been talking about Jews, Christians, or otherwise. As I spoke to above. I didn't miss Christianity any more than I missed Hindus or anybody else. I'm not going to type every religion. And, yes, orthodox Christians. Numerous orthodox Christian values are very much antithetical to Western values. Keep in mind, Chasidik Jews live comfortably in America. Orthodox Jews living within a western system. But also keep in mind, Chasidik Jews live within Chasidik communities. Why? So they can live in a space that upholds their values, not western values. For America in general, bikinis rule. For orthodox Jews, orthodox Muslims, not so much. That is all I am speaking to. Though the disparities are obviously broader than just bikinis. Western culture puts freedom on a pretty high pedestal. Orthodox Muslims, not as high. And, so you're not triggered, same for orthodox Jews, orthodox Christians, etc. All I am saying is that Western values conflict with orthodox muslims and many, many of the muslims in the Middle East are orthodox. Including Gaza.

Forgive me for grinding on this, but you said that Israel is western. Jewish. Muslims are not Jewish.

"Because Israel, like the US, is western and is not a proponent of Muslim values. Because Israel is a Jewish State and Jewish is not Muslim."

This was your explanation as to why Hamas "hates" the US. It was based on the supposed conflict between Islam and western values.

Do "orthodox Christians" hate the US because we're a western values liberal democracy with a multicultural population? Well, some "orthodox Christians" in some parts of the world do see the US as an adversary and do deplore our more "liberal" social views and protections for individual rights....but is that because they are orthodox christians? Or is it due to their cultural roots and preference for an authoritarian regime to enforce?

I think what you mean by "orthodox Muslim" is really the cultural incarnation of Islam that has its roots in a backward looking, anti-modern fundamentalism that has been at literal war for centuries within the various sects, fundamentalist Sunni and fundamentalist Shia, etc. The competition is largely about which is the more pure interpretation, whereas other incarnations have readily adapted to modernism and have rejected the backward fundamentalism...and some countries ruling class, while modern themselves, have used the fundamentalism to keep their populations from turning their ire on those rulers...that's thawing a lot as those modern rulers loosen religious strictures so as to be able to better participate with others economically. They have a long way yet to go, but the move is rather extraordinary in the scope of time. (Giving up authoritarian control will be harder!).

Note, one of the problems Israel faces is that their own religious fundamentalists have gained sway over their governmental policies...this is actually anti-western values...so, is Israel actually "western"?

My key point is that we should not conflate the faith tradition with the cultural and social-political specifics as if one particular religion is inherently antithetical to modern western values whereas others more familiar to Americans are not. Just not true.

And that conflation is at the root of Islamphobic bigotry.

[jhu72]

.

In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Ehud Barak gave a very generous offer (and the world agreed, Jews and Israelis were dumbfounded by the generosity) to Arafat, a two-state solution and Yasser Arafat rejected the offer. How does that work with your supposition that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution? Please, educate us...

No he did not

https://carnegieendowment.org/2020/07/1 ... -pub-82287

Just read this link and while I read lots of frustration and explaining why the two closest call efforts failed, under Carter and Clinton, it is also 100% clear from this recount that what Israel was offering was a two-state peace solution and that Arafat rejected the deal. Did Israel offer enough, did all all issues get resolved? According to this participant, no, the deal was never enough to overcome Arafat's suspicions. But it could have been accepted as a first step toward the outcome...the alternative was a continued terrorist posture. And Arafat chose the latter. He believed that his population was not supportive of accepting the deal.

So, seems to me that Israel's moderate/left wing did try to go down this path but those efforts were not enough to sway Arafat and the PLO which controlled the Palestinian position. I don't think the Palestinians, whether under PLO or Hamas, have ever offered a two-state resolution or security for Israel's ongoing objective to have a safe homeland for Jews. Not in my 67 year lifetime.

But put aside the past failures, if the answer is ever to be a peaceful resolution with two states side by side it is going to require very different leadership on both sides and very different public sentiment from both populations in support...it's not going to happen tomorrow, but steps in that direction could be taken.

... you talk like Arafat could make a decision, he was the final authority in that period. That is ahistorical. He was the leader of the PLO which was far from speaking for the most radical Palestinians / Muslims. He could not just snap his finger and have all of Palestine fall into place. The peace process (any) is always contingent on the willingness of most extreme faction on each side. The truth is there has always been a faction among the Palestinians who don't want peace. Same for the Jews. I believe you know this, but your writing seems to ignore these facts.

The Palestinian leadership has always been weak, weaker than the Jews. Frankly, the Jews have always taken advantage of this to put themselves in a superior public relations position. They play the western game better than the Palestinians.

(As OC puts it, make an offer then undermine your own offer. The time averaged seriousness of the Jewish offers can be measured by the amount of land the Jews have taken illegally from the UN perspective.)

[Baducchi]

... And that conflation is at the root of Islamphobic bigotry.

Fair enough. Let me it say it this way. Jihadists hate western values, hate America. Hamas hates western values, hates America. Many Palestinians hate western values, hate America. Not Muslims. Muslims is too broad a word.