Baducchi wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:47 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 9:05 am
"Muslim values"??? I have plenty of religiously observant Muslim friends who would take great exception to the characterization you imply, that "Muslim values" are antithetical to "western" values... A discussion of all that could be interesting, but if you didn't mean this to be as I read it, understanding that would be helpful.
Islam is not necessarily antithetical to western values. They're just different. And, some aspects, are antithetical. I understand that you have friends who are Muslim (as do I) who, most likely, live in America and, like so many others, are assimilated. Assimilated Muslims, assimilated Jews, assimilated Italians, etc. And that assimilated Muslim, Jew, Italian can claim that they're as Muslim, Jewish, Italian as their counterparts in Saudi Arabia, Mir, or Rome but, realistically, they are not. (I can go off on a tangent here but I will spare you.) Bottom-line, the essence of Islam is G-d centered, is service to Allah-centered, is being a servant to Allah, is modesty (especially for women), etc. Yes, I recognize that there is a spectrum of how Muslims choose to practice Islam and there is also a reality where, for Muslims, Jews, Italians, etc., one cannot ignore that the relevant entity is simply being watered down. I'm not speaking to the water, I'm speaking to the Muslim perspective. With this said...
If it helps, I'm happy to say that Orthodox Muslim values have numerous conflicts with western values.
I think you missed "assimilated Christians"; I assume you are aware of the history of Christians, "orthodox" or observant, Christians who have justified horrific actions on their religious beliefs; actions and justifications we would likely agree are "antithetical to (modern) western values". And, not just history, today we have large swaths of Christians across the world (and even here in the US) whose "belief" sets them apart from liberal western values.
When you write: "the essence of Islam is G-d centered, is service to Allah-centered, is being a servant to Allah, is modesty (especially for women), etc.", could you not substitute Allah for say Jesus? Would such "servant" hood be thought as antithetical to western values? Are there not groups of Christians, including here in the US, who subscribe to "modesty (especially for women)", including even the prescribed wearing of specific clothing? Same for some Jews in America?
Meanwhile, in various regions of the world, each of these major Abrahamic faith traditions have sects, large sects, which use their religiosity to justify horrific acts against others of different faith traditions and in policing their own...and back to women, Christians committing genital mutilation, stoning for adultery, etc. And of course, lots of extreme reactions to gender choices. With justifications for such 'found' in sacred texts...and yet others in those faith traditions reject such as inaccurate readings and in conflict with the true spirit of their faith.
So, I'd suggest that none of these religious traditions are inherently antithetical to western values, but people's culture and choices can definitely be in conflict with western values.
And if we mean "western values" to include the thread that values individual rights and choices, fundamental to 'liberal' constitutional democracy, which I think we would include in "western values", we certainly see major violations of these principles committed by various "Christians" around the world. In the name of "God" or "Jesus", just as we do in the name of "Allah".
But other Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, whatever can comfortably embrace western values and see their religious faith as in concert with those values. So not inherently antithetical.