PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 1:47 pm Could it be worse?
Well remember, you're judging the Israelis by how they reacted after having 1,000 people slaughtered in a day.
And Hamas STILL has hostages.
Totally different than how they were BEFORE this happened.
And yes, imho, if everyone abandons Israel....backing them into a corner?
How would YOU expect them to react if they're fighting to exist with no one to help them?
More to the point: how would any other country react if a neighbor waltzed in an slaughtered 1,000 civilians...including children?
Look at what we did just with our droning program.
Actually, I’m judging them on their entire body of work and finding them wanting.
I don’t deny them the right of self-defence, I’m just tired of paying for it.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 1:47 pm Could it be worse?
Well remember, you're judging the Israelis by how they reacted after having 1,000 people slaughtered in a day.
And Hamas STILL has hostages.
Totally different than how they were BEFORE this happened.
And yes, imho, if everyone abandons Israel....backing them into a corner?
How would YOU expect them to react if they're fighting to exist with no one to help them?
More to the point: how would any other country react if a neighbor waltzed in an slaughtered 1,000 civilians...including children?
Look at what we did just with our droning program.
Actually, I’m judging them on their entire body of work and finding them wanting.
I don’t deny them the right of self-defence, I’m just tired of paying for it.
Great. Shut off the spigot. I'm fine with that.
Do you not see my point, though? If you feel alone in your self-preservation, are you going to be MORE aggressive in protecting your citizens, or less?
youthathletics wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 2:30 pm
How would draw the comparison with Israel/Gaza-Hamas vs Ukraine/Russia.
~Both fighting over territory,
~One has significant religious implication/motivation,
~One has very little defense stockpile/stance
By all accounts, there is justification to support proxy with Ukraine and stay the hell outta Israel/Hama altercation.
Well, as we've seen here, you can bootstrap justification to support ANY war and/or 'arming a faction'.
To wit: "weapons of mass destruction".
And Old Salt makes fun, but this PRECISELY why I believe we should never get involved with a country on a military level UNLESS we have a Senate-ratified Treaty on the books.
Make the support of war and death HARD, and make it come from a unified bipartisan position. If it's SO important to US interests, signing a Treaty should be an easy thing, no?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious. Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it.
1. that's simply not true. They did...multiple times
2. where's Palestine's offer, OCanada?
Have they EVER offered a plan?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country.
Bad assumption. Israel can't do that, and every reasonable onlooker knows why.
OCanada...have you looked at how many Jewish people live in Democratic Egpyt? Are you going to play dumb like Brookie and pretend you can't figure out why?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?
Yep. That was written AFTER the many offers of land and peace...and after more attacks from Palestine.
I don't like what Israel has done over the last 20 years either, but you're putting zero on Palestine. You're asking Israel to do it all.....where is the part where you demand Palestine do SOMETHING to end this nonsense?
Most of your post is erroneous. I doubt you have taken ths time to look into it in depth. So educate me. Give me one offer Israel met which meets the reasonable test? Gi e the offer and who benefits from it. Mostly you seem to reflect the cultivated. Egypt offered an unconditional peace treaty and Israel rejected it.
What were the terms offered. What were the key issues gor Israel and what for the Palestinians? How did the offer meet each sides key issues?
What is the zionist position land? I will ask again: what % of the land was owned by Palestinians in 1948 and whar % is owned now?
Israel has bern defended by one country consistently at the Security Council? To what do you attribute the UN overwhelmingly calling out war crimes and human rights violations and the US vetoing or voting against them?
Last edited by OCanada on Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious. Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it.
1. that's simply not true. They did...multiple times
2. where's Palestine's offer, OCanada?
Have they EVER offered a plan?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country.
Bad assumption. Israel can't do that, and every reasonable onlooker knows why.
OCanada...have you looked at how many Jewish people live in Democratic Egpyt? Are you going to play dumb like Brookie and pretend you can't figure out why?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?
Yep. That was written AFTER the many offers of land and peace...and after more attacks from Palestine.
I don't like what Israel has done over the last 20 years either, but you're putting zero on Palestine. You're asking Israel to do it all.....where is the part where you demand Palestine do SOMETHING to end this nonsense?
Most of your post is erroneous. I doubt you have taken ths time to look into it in depth. So educate me. Give me one offer Israel met which meets the reasonable test? Gi e the offer and who benefits from it. Mostly you seem to reflect the cultivated. Egypt offered an unconditional peace treaty and Israel rejected it
Now go back to the UN Resolution and what it said that voth parties agreed to. Israel has created a state with a dominant population amd a weaker population with classes of rights. That is not a democracy. There have always been two classes. You seem to equate Hamas w Palestinians. BTW Bengie has sent money in support of Hamas.
While looking back on the founding explain the “right of Refurn” and how it came to be
In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Ehud Barak gave a very generous offer (and the world agreed, Jews and Israelis were dumbfounded by the generosity) to Arafat, a two-state solution and Yasser Arafat rejected the offer. How does that work with your supposition that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution? Please, educate us...
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious. Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it.
1. that's simply not true. They did...multiple times
2. where's Palestine's offer, OCanada?
Have they EVER offered a plan?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country.
Bad assumption. Israel can't do that, and every reasonable onlooker knows why.
OCanada...have you looked at how many Jewish people live in Democratic Egpyt? Are you going to play dumb like Brookie and pretend you can't figure out why?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:36 am
Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?
Yep. That was written AFTER the many offers of land and peace...and after more attacks from Palestine.
I don't like what Israel has done over the last 20 years either, but you're putting zero on Palestine. You're asking Israel to do it all.....where is the part where you demand Palestine do SOMETHING to end this nonsense?
Most of your post is erroneous. I doubt you have taken ths time to look into it in depth. So educate me. Give me one offer Israel met which meets the reasonable test? Gi e the offer and who benefits from it. Mostly you seem to reflect the cultivated. Egypt offered an unconditional peace treaty and Israel rejected it.
What were the terms offered. What were the key issues gor Israel and what for the Palestinians? How did the offer meet each sides key issues?
What is the zionist position land? I will ask again: what % of the land was owned by Palestinians in 1948 and whar % is owned now?
Israel has bern defended by one country consistently at the Security Council? To what do you attribute the UN overwhelmingly calling out war crimes and human rights violations and the US vetoing or voting against them?
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:34 pm
Most of your post is erroneous. I doubt you have taken ths time to look into it in depth. So educate me. Give me one offer Israel met which meets the reasonable test?
So.....the parties didn't meet with Bill Clinton in 2000 where the offer was made for land and peace?
No agreement will be perfect for EITHER side. But you can't say they didn't try...and you can't say that this isn't more than Palestine has now.
You're making it sound like Israel has never set foot near a negotiating table, and has never offered anything but a hearty "f you, we're taking all of it".
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:34 pm
Egypt offered an unconditional peace treaty and Israel rejected it
? You lost me.
That was a negotiation between Egypt and Israel...not Palestine. And they signed a peace agreement in March of 1978, did they not? And Egypt became the first Arab State to recognize Israel
Those two nations ARE at peace here in 2023, are they not?
In short: I have no clue what you're talking about here. Help me out.
In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Ehud Barak gave a very generous offer (and the world agreed, Jews and Israelis were dumbfounded by the generosity) to Arafat, a two-state solution and Yasser Arafat rejected the offer. How does that work with your supposition that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution? Please, educate us...
a fan wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:53 pm
You're making it sound like Israel has never set foot near a negotiating table, and has never offered anything but a hearty "f you, we're taking all of it".
OCanada's two-state statement about Israel is ridiculous. As is his link above. Baducchi is correct.
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:34 pm
Most of your post is erroneous. I doubt you have taken ths time to look into it in depth. So educate me. Give me one offer Israel met which meets the reasonable test?
So.....the parties didn't meet with Bill Clinton in 2000 where the offer was made for land and peace?
No agreement will be perfect for EITHER side. But you can't say they didn't try...and you can't say that this isn't more than Palestine has now.
You're making it sound like Israel has never set foot near a negotiating table, and has never offered anything but a hearty "f you, we're taking all of it".
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 3:34 pm
Egypt offered an unconditional peace treaty and Israel rejected it
? You lost me.
That was a negotiation between Egypt and Israel...not Palestine. And they signed a peace agreement in March of 1978, did they not? And Egypt became the first Arab State to recognize Israel
Those two nations ARE at peace here in 2023, are they not?
In short: I have no clue what you're talking about here. Help me out.
What is difficult to understand. Eqypt offered a no strimgs offer of Peace an Israel rejected it. I absolutely think Clunton tried but it was not sincere fiven the issues it did not address. I am guessing you think Israel is pure and Arabs are not
In the summer of 2000 at Camp David, Ehud Barak gave a very generous offer (and the world agreed, Jews and Israelis were dumbfounded by the generosity) to Arafat, a two-state solution and Yasser Arafat rejected the offer. How does that work with your supposition that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution? Please, educate us...
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:01 pm
What is difficult to understand. Eqypt offered a no strimgs offer of Peace an Israel rejected it.
That explains why Egypt and Israel are currently at war. Who's winning?
Making stuff up doesn't help the conversation, my man. They are at peace, and Egypt recognized Israel as a country. Please, by all means, lie about that.
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:01 pm
I absolutely think Clunton tried but it was not sincere fiven the issues it did not address.
Right. The Palestinians and Israelis showed up at Camp David to black Backgammon...it wasn't sincere.
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:01 pm
I am guessing you think Israel is pure and Arabs are not
A. Nope.
B. where did "Arabs" enter the conversation? We're discussing Palestinians....you're the one who took a detour to Egypt, not me.
I'll bite: tell us where the Palestinians have screwed this situation up? So far, you are holding them blameless.
Put me in charge. I'll take Gaza away from Hamas, and give it to UN Troops. Then pump money into Gaza to make it a regional employment center.
Why I Can’t Stop Writing About Oct. 7
Dec. 19, 2023
By Bret Stephens
NY Times Opinion Columnist
This will be my last column for the year, and it will be more personal than most. It’s an effort to explain, to myself as much as to readers, why I can’t stop writing about Oct. 7 and its aftermath.
A few weeks ago, my mother was watching footage of a Jewish student being taunted and mobbed by anti-Israel demonstrators at Harvard after he tried to film them. “I was born in hiding,” she told me. “I don’t want to die in hiding.”
My mother was born in Milan in 1940, to a family that had fled the Bolsheviks in Moscow and then, a few years later, the Nazis in Berlin. She was baptized to avoid suspicion; one of her earliest memories is of being abruptly hidden under a nun’s habit. It was only after the war, after she arrived in New York as a refugee, that she learned she was Jewish. America, to her, was the land in which you didn’t have to hide.
That’s no longer true. Well before Oct. 7, Jews were tucking their Stars of David under their collars or hiding their kipas under baseball caps to avoid being shunned or harassed. Synagogues and Jewish community centers were under constant armed guard. The ultra-Orthodox — who, courageously, do not hide their identity from anyone — were routinely assaulted in their communities by bullies who think it’s fun to sucker-punch a Jew. But that reality was shamefully underreported by news organizations that otherwise see themselves as champions of the marginalized and oppressed.
Everything that was true before Oct. 7 became more so after it. Hate crimes against Jews, which had nearly quintupled in the previous 10 years, also quintupled from Oct. 7 to Dec. 7 compared to the same period in 2022. Subtext became text: “Gas the Jews” was the chant heard from protesters at the Sydney Opera House, “From the river to the sea” from the quads of once-great American universities. The same students who had been carefully instructed in the nuances of microaggressions suddenly went very macro when it came to making Jews feel despised. The same progressives who erupted in righteous rage during #MeToo became somnambulant in the face of abundant evidence that Israeli women had been mutilated, gang-raped and murdered by Hamas. The same humanitarians who cried foul over migrant “kids in cages” at the southern U.S. border didn’t seem particularly bothered that Israeli kids were being held in tunnels, or that posters with their names and faces were routinely torn down on New York street corners.
All this is likely to get worse: A Harvard-Harris poll conducted this month finds that 44 percent of Americans ages 25 to 34, and a whopping 67 percent of those ages 18 to 24, agree with the proposition that “Jews as a class are oppressors.” By contrast, only 9 percent of Americans over 65 feel that way. The same generation that received the most instruction in the virtues of tolerance is now the most antisemitic in recent memory.
Where does all this hatred come from? If your answer is Israel, then, to borrow a line I once heard from Leon Wieseltier, you aren’t explaining antisemitism; you’re replicating it. No self-respecting liberal would argue that Islamophobia is understandable because Muslims perpetrated the attacks of Sept. 11 and other atrocities. But somehow the types of excuses that are unthinkable when it comes to some minorities become “essential context” when it comes to Jews.
As it is, the single-minded loathing of Israel is another expression of antisemitism. Turkey flies F-16s in bombing runs against Kurds — while relying on U.S. security guarantees backed up by nuclear weapons — and progressives shrug. But after Israel experienced the equivalent of more than a dozen Sept. 11s on a single day, some progressives instantly cheered it as an act of justified “resistance.”
This side of the left, perhaps larger in cultural influence than it is in number, has the moral credibility of David Duke. Much of the right, with its dog-whistling obsession with “replacement theory” and its conspiracy theories about nefarious “globalists,” is no better. The fact that each side is in denial about its bigotry makes it that much more pernicious and pervasive. When progressives think the most despicable name in the world is Benjamin Netanyahu and the far right thinks it’s George Soros, we have a problem.
There’s a historical pattern. In the early 1920s, the most important scientist in Germany was Albert Einstein, the most important politician was Walther Rathenau and the most important philosopher was Edmund Husserl. All Jews. They wound up exiled, murdered or shunned. Today, the U.S. secretaries of state, Treasury and homeland security are Jewish, as is the majority leader in the Senate and the president’s chief of staff.
Too often in Jewish history, our zenith turns out to be our precipice. Too often in world history, that precipice is also the end of free society itself. Antisemitism is a problem for democracy because hatred for Jews, whatever name or cause it travels under, is never a hatred for Jews only. It’s a hatred for distinctiveness: Jews as Jews in Christian lands; Israel as a Jewish state in Muslim lands. Authoritarians seek uniformity. Jews represent difference.
I don’t think my mom will die in hiding. I wonder about my kids. America has been good to Jews since 1655, when the Dutch West India Company rebuked Peter Stuyvesant for refusing trade permits to some Jewish newcomers in what was then New Amsterdam. But if there’s one lesson of Jewish history, it’s that nothing good stays — and why we still say, at the end of every Passover Seder, “Next year in Jerusalem.”
OCanada wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:11 pm
Nope. Does mot begin to solve the problem but does demo how little you understand about it
Right.
Tell me then: why did Hamas slaughter 1,000 people and take hostages this year?
You have all the answers. Why did they do that?
Or better yet: why is Hamas in charge of Gaza, and how does that help Palestinians who want to live in peace?
This is an intractable situation. Better to get out from between the "dog and the tree." I still don't understand why this is the concern of the US. All parties to this debacle have, at some point, acted in bad faith. So, why stay involved? Are we gluttons for punishment?
Brings me back to the dual-citizenship issue. You're either an American or you're not. No divided loyalties. I don't take up the enmities and animosities of the countries of my ancestors -- it would be exhausting and, in some occasions, inherently contradictory. Why do some?
And how is it possible to be a citizen (which comes with responsibilities as well as privileges) of more than one country?
Nonsense. Pick one. And be zealous in your loyalty and allegiance to same.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
PizzaSnake wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:10 pm
This is an intractable situation. Better to get out from between the "dog and the tree." I still don't understand why this is the concern of the US. All parties to this debacle have, at some point, acted in bad faith. So, why stay involved? Are we gluttons for punishment?
Only answer I have is that Carter and Clinton were the only two people who got them anywhere close to a peace & land deal.
That, and as I said before: if the US steps away, the chances of peace are big fat, zippo, because Israel will be isolated and feel they need to do anything in their power to exist...and will act in a Draconian matter to achieve that goal.
Lefties call for the US to step away entirely...be careful what you ask for here.
I'm all for cutting off military aid, while not stepping away diplomatically.
1st step is to make Gaza livable.
2nd, make it flourish.
3rd, identify a negotiating partner, and work the problem.
That explains why Egypt and Israel are currently at war. Who's winning?
