Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Baducchi]

Only if Hamas is rejected and the Netanyahu government is replaced by a moderate government.
I think the latter will have to happen first.

Why is that? That Netanyahu being replaced needs to happen first. And, FWIW, Netanyahu's days are numbered. That he'll be replaced by a moderate government is less clear. October 7 did not help to build idealism in Israel.

[Baducchi]

Thanks for the discussion; it is much appreciated.

By you and me both.

[Kismet]

Stating the obvious but wow it is a major change to be able to read a discussion about Israel that is not littered with inane pro-Hamas posts. Thank you to any and all who took care of that.

Only for a week, so enjoy it while it lasts

He'll have to walk the line when he gets back. For all intents and purposes, he's had an amendment to the FanLax rules inserted just for him. It'll be a lot easier to report him and get him thrown in the clink the next time he goes off the rails about Israel.

Wouldn't bet the ranch on that either. History here does not support this.

[Baducchi]

So we're in agreement that Gaza is unable to provide water and electricity without outside help. No matter who is in charge?

I do not agree. More accurately, I do not know.

As far as billions invested and "Nothing" isn't true. The EU, UN, and others have helped the Palestinians build multiple desalination plants, solar farms and more in Gaza that were operational prior to this war. Those plants don't cover all of Gaza, but "Nothing" is incorrect.

Agreed. I'm being loose with my language. I'll tighten it up.

Also, re-read what I wrote. I never said it was Israel's fault... The "us vs. them" mentality only perpetuates this mess. Anyone who isn't on board 100% with your cause is a "them" these days, over there and over here.

Agreed.

And Hamas and Netanyahu agrees with that. They think fomenting that division helps their respective causes (money and power for the most part). Hamas was happy attacking and murdering innocents, and they knew Israel's response would be 10 fold, perpetuating the cycle.

And agreed. I don't love discussing Hamas and Netanyahu in the same breath but in terms of this specific point, that each is trying to further their personal agenda, I agree. I just want to clarify that Bibi's agenda is a common political agenda, the kind of personal and professional agenda we find early and often in America. Hamas' agenda is a very different animal.

[Gretchen]

Only for a week, so enjoy it while it lasts

Don't ruin this for me...

Go figure. You remove the guy who is pro-Hamas (i.e. You remove Hamas) and all of a sudden, things are 5,000 times more sane. Go figure...

[OCanada]

I have objected to the personal attack language just as I've objected to your absolutist labeling others.

Again, IMO, you're outside the bounds. Your absolutist, always anti-Israel, screeds are offensive...IMO intentionally so.

Hamas has made clear that they demand an entirely Islamic state, no Israel. They have supported that demand by killing indiscriminately as many Jews as possible, their leaders have numerous times committed them to killing all Jews in their way. And anyone else in their way.

The right wing Israeli government is committed to the preservation of Israel at all costs in the face of terror. Their policies, I believe, are not genocidal but they are abhorrent to me nevertheless as they are way too casual in their taking of innocent life in their effort to kill terrorists.

Your failure, no, your refusal, to condemn Hamas' actions are beyond the pale.

I agree with most of your post. However the balance is tipped heavily on the other side from what i have seen. Israel never wanted a two state solution and neither has Hamas. The Palestinians would accept one. The ahistorical posts that ignore the reality of events since the late 1940s is amazing to me. Both sides have used terror. Both sides have killed a lot of innocent civilians to achieve their goal. History here is important to know

The history of this situation is not my area of expertise, but I think that's incorrect when you say that "Israel" has never wanted a two state solution. There have been Israeli elected governments that have "wanted" that outcome in exchange for guarantees of peace and have actively sought such resolution (the Netanyahu government coalitions have not). And I think it is incorrect to say "The Palestinians" "would accept one" unless you meant, "some of the Palestinian people but not their leadership". Indeed, when offered, it's been turned down not just by Hamas but also by the PLO when it was in full control. Tragically, IMO.

You would be ifet from reading Da id Ben Gurions diaries and the early zionists as well ss the history of rhe first decade. Isrsel has lied to the world on many issues and events. The Israeli press is essentially an arm of the Israeli Governmdnt on major ussues with the possible exception of Haaretz. The American press is also not impartisl. Golda Meir had dome interesting comments as well

Again look at the % of land controlled by the Palestinians pre independence at compare it to now

[OCanada]

Israel never wanted a two state solution...

This is blatantly untrue...

That is blatantly uninformed

[OCanada]

I have objected to the personal attack language just as I've objected to your absolutist labeling others.

Again, IMO, you're outside the bounds. Your absolutist, always anti-Israel, screeds are offensive...IMO intentionally so.

Hamas has made clear that they demand an entirely Islamic state, no Israel. They have supported that demand by killing indiscriminately as many Jews as possible, their leaders have numerous times committed them to killing all Jews in their way. And anyone else in their way.

The right wing Israeli government is committed to the preservation of Israel at all costs in the face of terror. Their policies, I believe, are not genocidal but they are abhorrent to me nevertheless as they are way too casual in their taking of innocent life in their effort to kill terrorists.

Your failure, no, your refusal, to condemn Hamas' actions are beyond the pale.

I agree with most of your post. However the balance is tipped heavily on the other side from what i have seen. Israel never wanted a two state solution and neither has Hamas. The Palestinians would accept one.

If this is true: why haven't Palestinians offered a two State solution?

Or more to the point, why didn't they accept the Two State solutions of the past?

This should have been in our rear view mirror DECADES ago.

Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious
Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it. The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country. Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?

[a fan]

Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious. Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it.

1. that's simply not true. They did...multiple times
2. where's Palestine's offer, OCanada?

Have they EVER offered a plan?

The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country.

Bad assumption. Israel can't do that, and every reasonable onlooker knows why.

OCanada...have you looked at how many Jewish people live in Democratic Egpyt? Are you going to play dumb like Brookie and pretend you can't figure out why?

Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?

Yep. That was written AFTER the many offers of land and peace...and after more attacks from Palestine.

I don't like what Israel has done over the last 20 years either, but you're putting zero on Palestine. You're asking Israel to do it all.....where is the part where you demand Palestine do SOMETHING to end this nonsense?

[MDlaxfan76]

Only if Hamas is rejected and the Netanyahu government is replaced by a moderate government.
I think the latter will have to happen first.

Why is that? That Netanyahu being replaced needs to happen first. And, FWIW, Netanyahu's days are numbered. That he'll be replaced by a moderate government is less clear. October 7 did not help to build idealism in Israel.

Because only a moderate government, not a right wing absolutist one, is going to be capable of accepting, much less offering, a two state peace solution.

Not that it's going to be easy or simple for a moderate one, but there's no shred of hope for the Palestinians to even begin to coalesce around a two state peace solution if the current or any other right wing government is in control in Israel. Obviously Hamas and their ilk need to be replaced with hope for better.

Both will be necessary.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Why is that? That Netanyahu being replaced needs to happen first. And, FWIW, Netanyahu's days are numbered. That he'll be replaced by a moderate government is less clear. October 7 did not help to build idealism in Israel.

Maybe Israel is tired of playing nice, right? Maybe they've had enough of trying to be reasonable, so to speak. Hasn't gotten them much in the way of peace since they announced their Statehood in 1948. One group/nation after another attacking them, antagonizing them, etc. There was an Arab Spring. Maybe the Jewish people and their government are beginning a kind of Israeli Winter. I wouldn't blame them after October 7th.

[PizzaSnake]

Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious. Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it.

1. that's simply not true. They did...multiple times
2. where's Palestine's offer, OCanada?

Have they EVER offered a plan?

The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country.

Bad assumption. Israel can't do that, and every reasonable onlooker knows why.

OCanada...have you looked at how many Jewish people live in Democratic Egpyt? Are you going to play dumb like Brookie and pretend you can't figure out why?

Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?

Yep. That was written AFTER the many offers of land and peace...and after more attacks from Palestine.

I don't like what Israel has done over the last 20 years either, but you're putting zero on Palestine. You're asking Israel to do it all.....where is the part where you demand Palestine do SOMETHING to end this nonsense?

What I don’t like is the price the US has been paying. I remember oil “crises” if the ‘70s when the Arab states indicated their displeasure with the unalloyed US support of Israel. I also remember the Marine Corps barracks bombing in Beirut. The Red Sea shipping that has developed has the US without much regional naval support.

So, let’s put direct and military aid aside. The US has payed and continues to pay a high price in lives and treasure for its uncritical support of the nation of Israel. Also true for SA and Kuwait.

What, precisely is so paramount to US interests that we continue to take Israel’s side regardless of its behavior?

[a fan]

Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious. Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it.

1. that's simply not true. They did...multiple times
2. where's Palestine's offer, OCanada?

Have they EVER offered a plan?

The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country.

Bad assumption. Israel can't do that, and every reasonable onlooker knows why.

OCanada...have you looked at how many Jewish people live in Democratic Egpyt? Are you going to play dumb like Brookie and pretend you can't figure out why?

Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?

Yep. That was written AFTER the many offers of land and peace...and after more attacks from Palestine.

I don't like what Israel has done over the last 20 years either, but you're putting zero on Palestine. You're asking Israel to do it all.....where is the part where you demand Palestine do SOMETHING to end this nonsense?

What I don’t luke is the price the US has been paying. I remember oil “crises” if the ‘70s when the Arab states indicated their displeasure with the unalloyed US support of Israel. I also remember the Marine Corps barracks bombing in Beirut. The Red Sea shipping that has developed has the US without much regional naval support.

So, let’s put direct and military aid aside. The US has payed and continues to pay a high price in lives and treasure for its uncritical support of the nation of Israel. Also true for SA and Kuwait.

What, precisely is so paramount to US interests that we continue to take Israel’s side regardless of its behavior?

I agree with this completely. We don't have a treaty with Israel, and they're clearly capable of handling themselves just fine.

The problem, as I'd guess you might understand, is: if the US pulls support, now the Israelis are backed into a corner, and have no reason to listen to anyone about anything.

Can you picture what the result of that would be?

[Baducchi]

Because only a moderate government, not a right wing absolutist one, is going to be capable of accepting, much less offering, a two state peace solution... Not that it's going to be easy or simple for a moderate one, but there's no shred of hope for the Palestinians to even begin to coalesce around a two state peace solution if the current or any other right wing government is in control in Israel. Obviously Hamas and their ilk need to be replaced with hope for better... Both will be necessary.

I reacted to the word moderate. Moderate as you are defining it holds water. I agree.

[Baducchi]

Israel never wanted a two state solution...

This is blatantly untrue...

That is blatantly uninformed

Gretchen, this discussion is a waste of your time. Why bother...

[Baducchi]

... if the US pulls support, now the Israelis are backed into a corner, and have no reason to listen to anyone about anything... Can you picture what the result of that would be?

If the US or any country was to step aside, I think you'd find little if any change in what Israel is currently doing. Israel has a job to do and they are doing it.

[a fan]

... if the US pulls support, now the Israelis are backed into a corner, and have no reason to listen to anyone about anything... Can you picture what the result of that would be?

If the US or any country was to step aside, I think you'd find little if any change in what Israel is currently doing. Israel has a job to do and they are doing it.

That's true for how thing are now, Dec of 2023.

What I mean, though, is: long term. Israel's government and tactics would, imho, be far more extreme.

Just my opinion.

[PizzaSnake]

Sould a woulda coulda. I think it would be obvious. Common ground is needed and Israel never offered it.

1. that's simply not true. They did...multiple times
2. where's Palestine's offer, OCanada?

Have they EVER offered a plan?

The assumption was a democracy and retained land rights. A democracy would make Jewish Israel a minority in their own country.

Bad assumption. Israel can't do that, and every reasonable onlooker knows why.

OCanada...have you looked at how many Jewish people live in Democratic Egpyt? Are you going to play dumb like Brookie and pretend you can't figure out why?

Have you read the Nation State Law passed a few years ago?

Yep. That was written AFTER the many offers of land and peace...and after more attacks from Palestine.

I don't like what Israel has done over the last 20 years either, but you're putting zero on Palestine. You're asking Israel to do it all.....where is the part where you demand Palestine do SOMETHING to end this nonsense?

What I don’t luke is the price the US has been paying. I remember oil “crises” if the ‘70s when the Arab states indicated their displeasure with the unalloyed US support of Israel. I also remember the Marine Corps barracks bombing in Beirut. The Red Sea shipping that has developed has the US without much regional naval support.

So, let’s put direct and military aid aside. The US has payed and continues to pay a high price in lives and treasure for its uncritical support of the nation of Israel. Also true for SA and Kuwait.

What, precisely is so paramount to US interests that we continue to take Israel’s side regardless of its behavior?

I agree with this completely. We don't have a treaty with Israel, and they're clearly capable of handling themselves just fine.

The problem, as I'd guess you might understand, is: if the US pulls support, now the Israelis are backed into a corner, and have no reason to listen to anyone about anything.

And they are listening now? Frankly, I don’t care anymore. Let them go, and devil take the hindmost.


Can you picture what the result of that would be?

Could it be worse?

[a fan]

Could it be worse?

Well remember, you're judging the Israelis by how they reacted after having 1,000 people slaughtered in a day.

And Hamas STILL has hostages.

Totally different than how they were BEFORE this happened.

And yes, imho, if everyone abandons Israel....backing them into a corner?

How would YOU expect them to react if they're fighting to exist with no one to help them?

More to the point: how would any other country react if a neighbor waltzed in an slaughtered 1,000 civilians...including children?

Look at what we did just with our droning program.

[youthathletics]

Could it be worse?

Well remember, you're judging the Israelis by how they reacted after having 1,000 people slaughtered in a day.

And Hamas STILL has hostages.

Totally different than how they were BEFORE this happened.

And yes, imho, if everyone abandons Israel....backing them into a corner?

How would YOU expect them to react if they're fighting to exist with no one to help them?

More to the point: how would any other country react if a neighbor waltzed in an slaughtered 1,000 civilians...including children?

Look at what we did just with our droning program.

How would draw the comparison with Israel/Gaza-Hamas vs Ukraine/Russia.
~Both fighting over territory,
~One has significant religious implication/motivation,
~One has very little defense stockpile/stance

By all accounts, there is justification to support proxy with Ukraine and stay the hell outta Israel/Hama altercation.