Israel and West Bank Settlements

[cradleandshoot]

... The resolution of this dispute has to involve an agreed plan for the removal of Hamas as a political and paramilitary force in the region. And that is on all parties -- Gazans, Israelis and their government, and the so-called world community...

Relatively recently, Israel ran Gaza. And factions called Israel occupiers. So Israel stepped away from Gaza (despite enormous push-back from Israelis due to their fears about what would happen when Israel isn't over-seeing the people of Gaza/Hamas... No need to say what did happen) and Hamas was democratically elected to be the new government for Gaza. Again, lots of consternation on the parts of the people of Israel. But that's not my interest. My interest is, At what point is Gaza responsible for Gaza? Gaza doesn't have industries, Gazans don't have jobs, Gazans don't have clean enough water, etc. which is quickly followed by, Why isn't Israel fixing this?! Look what Israel is doing to the Gazans! Keep in mind, the world and Gaza demanded that Israel step away, the Gazans (Hamas) were given billions of dollars to resolve these issues and, of their own accord, they built tunnels, they bought weapons, etc. The Gazans are not living large. Anyone can recognize this but my question is, When does the responsibility for this situation fall squarely on the Gazans and become removed from Israel? If the world wants to throw money at them, that's up to the world. But at what point does the world stop believing that Gaza and Israel are somehow inextricably connected?

Gaza could be a world class resort type of destination. Without people trying to kill each other all the time the waterfront stretch of Gaza would be prime real estate for investors. The same was true of Beirut before it became a war zone it was a beautiful place to visit so I have read.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

... not much of a defense

I was making an appeal, not a defense.

[jhu72]

I've yet to see any mention of the role the JDL and dual American-Israeli citizens (Meir Kahane, Baruch Goldstein, etc.) have played in this saga, particularly with respect to the seizure of West Bank territory. The JDL is a named domestic terrorist organization.

The situation in the area is fraught enough without these external influences adding to the mix. How is it people can have dual citizenship? How is that possible? Being a citizen of a nation is a little more involved than being a member of a book club. What responsibility does the US have for the actions of its citizens?

... I posted an article yesterday regarding this topic. Crickets.

[Baducchi]

Gaza could be a world class resort type of destination. Without people trying to kill each other all the time the waterfront stretch of Gaza would be prime real estate for investors. The same was true of Beirut before it became a war zone it was a beautiful place to visit so I have read.

Gaza is all but completely beachside and one of the first complaints post-October 7 is... Why aren't the Israelis giving them water, giving them electricity?! Cradle, you're talking about their creating a tourist attraction. For heaven's sake, they can't provide themselves with clean water and electricity. The future of Gaza needs to be realistic.

[Baducchi]

I've yet to see any mention of the role the JDL and dual American-Israeli citizens (Meir Kahane, Baruch Goldstein, etc.) have played in this saga, particularly with respect to the seizure of West Bank territory. The JDL is a named domestic terrorist organization...

... I posted an article yesterday regarding this topic. Crickets.

There were Jewish gangsters. Mafia type folk. And they were never embraced by the Jewish community. It's a jewish thing. (fwiw, this is not true for many other nations.) Same was true for the JDL, Kahane, and Goldstein. They existed, they were marginalized, and, today, they are irrelevant, extinct.

[jhu72]

There is only one realistic possibility, Hamas declares unconditional surrender throws down their weapons and decide this war is futile. That will likely only happen after Israel has destroyed the present leadership of Hamas and devastated it's infrastructure. That starts with the destruction of all the tunnels under Gaza. I don't think the Israeli government should contemplate any cease fire at the present time. The Hamas terrorists want that desperately. They have no ability at this time to catch their breath and reorganize and redeploy their assets. The carnage in Gaza is horrific but when your adversary uses the citizens of Palestine to blend in and fight behind women and children how do you fight a war like that? They are pleading for humanity. Humanity doesn't survive in this type of warfare. War really is hell, especially this one.

Don't see any universe where this happens. The active phase of the war will end when Israel believes they have eliminated this incarnation of Hamas. Probably modulated by a loud enough uproar from the rest of the world that Israel has killed enough Palestinians, inflicted enough pain and suffering. There will be no formal surrender by Hamas. It will end like every other intifada, unfortunately. Rinse and repeat cycle triggered for a future date.

[cradleandshoot]

Gaza could be a world class resort type of destination. Without people trying to kill each other all the time the waterfront stretch of Gaza would be prime real estate for investors. The same was true of Beirut before it became a war zone it was a beautiful place to visit so I have read.

Gaza is all but completely beachside and one of the first complaints post-October 7 is... Why aren't the Israelis giving them water, giving them electricity?! Cradle, you're talking about their creating a tourist attraction. For heaven's sake, they can't provide themselves with clean water and electricity. The future of Gaza needs to be realistic.

Why is that not realistic?? It may take a very long time but there is never a shortage of people who love to hang out on the beach all day. I'm not thinking short term I'm thinking long term.

[cradleandshoot]

There is only one realistic possibility, Hamas declares unconditional surrender throws down their weapons and decide this war is futile. That will likely only happen after Israel has destroyed the present leadership of Hamas and devastated it's infrastructure. That starts with the destruction of all the tunnels under Gaza. I don't think the Israeli government should contemplate any cease fire at the present time. The Hamas terrorists want that desperately. They have no ability at this time to catch their breath and reorganize and redeploy their assets. The carnage in Gaza is horrific but when your adversary uses the citizens of Palestine to blend in and fight behind women and children how do you fight a war like that? They are pleading for humanity. Humanity doesn't survive in this type of warfare. War really is hell, especially this one.

Don't see any universe where this happens. The active phase of the war will end when Israel believes they have eliminated this incarnation of Hamas. Probably modulated by a loud enough uproar from the rest of the world that Israel has killed enough Palestinians, inflicted enough pain and suffering. There will be no formal surrender by Hamas. It will end like every other intifada, unfortunately. Rinse and repeat cycle triggered for a future date.

Then this war is just one more senseless and futile war in a very long history of senseless and futile wars. There will never be a surrender from Hamas. The best Israel can hope for is to destroy their present infrastructure and see if a Phoenix rises from the ashes.

[Baducchi]

It may take a very long time but... I'm thinking long term.

True

Then this war is just one more senseless and futile war in a very long history of senseless and futile wars. There will never be a surrender from Hamas. The best Israel can hope for is to destroy their present infrastructure and see if a Phoenix rises from the ashes.

And the Jews are OK with this. When the Jews built Israel as their homeland, they weren't so naïve as to believe that the establishment of a nation state would deter other nations from wanting to destroy them. It just allowed the Jews to have a home so they didn't have to keep starting from scratch over and over and over again. And Israel allowed the Jews to have land that they own in order to defend themselves. And, for the Jews, that's good enough. There will always be a Hamas. And the Jews are OK with this.

I did not mean the question (below) to be rhetorical. Anyone have a guess?

... At what point is Gaza responsible for Gaza?... When does the responsibility for this situation fall squarely on the Gazans and become removed from Israel?... at what point does the world stop believing that Gaza and Israel are somehow inextricably connected?

[Gretchen]

Stating the obvious but wow it is a major change to be able to read a discussion about Israel that is not littered with inane pro-Hamas posts. Thank you to any and all who took care of that.

[Kismet]

Stating the obvious but wow it is a major change to be able to read a discussion about Israel that is not littered with inane pro-Hamas posts. Thank you to any and all who took care of that.

Only for a week, so enjoy it while it lasts

[jhu72]

It may take a very long time but... I'm thinking long term.

True

Then this war is just one more senseless and futile war in a very long history of senseless and futile wars. There will never be a surrender from Hamas. The best Israel can hope for is to destroy their present infrastructure and see if a Phoenix rises from the ashes.

And the Jews are OK with this. When the Jews built Israel as their homeland, they weren't so naïve as to believe that the establishment of a nation state would deter other nations from wanting to destroy them. It just allowed the Jews to have a home so they didn't have to keep starting from scratch over and over and over again. And Israel allowed the Jews to have land that they own in order to defend themselves. And, for the Jews, that's good enough. There will always be a Hamas. And the Jews are OK with this.

I did not mean the question (below) to be rhetorical. Anyone have a guess?

... At what point is Gaza responsible for Gaza?... When does the responsibility for this situation fall squarely on the Gazans and become removed from Israel?... at what point does the world stop believing that Gaza and Israel are somehow inextricably connected?

... Bibi is pushing back on plans to have someone besides Israel govern Gaza. I would answer you got to start by having the current government kicked out of power. Israel has got to be willing to negotiate, the current government is not. I don't see any third party who is willing to take responsibility the way things stand.

[NattyBohChamps04]

For heaven's sake, they can't provide themselves with clean water and electricity.

True, but why do you think this is? How much fresh water is available in Gaza? What natural resources are available in that tiny area to generate electricity? We're talking about a walled off area 25 miles long and 4-8 miles wide. It's smaller than Philadelphia.

They would need outside assistance/trade for water and electricity even with a peaceful, functioning government. And Israel has had a blockade on Gaza for ~16 years.

And yes, Hamas appropriates a lot of the current aid for its own purposes. In addition to all of those limitations.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Stating the obvious but wow it is a major change to be able to read a discussion about Israel that is not littered with inane pro-Hamas posts. Thank you to any and all who took care of that.

Only for a week, so enjoy it while it lasts

He'll have to walk the line when he gets back. For all intents and purposes, he's had an amendment to the FanLax rules inserted just for him. It'll be a lot easier to report him and get him thrown in the clink the next time he goes off the rails about Israel.

[Baducchi]

True, but why do you think this is? How much fresh water is available in Gaza? What natural resources are available in that tiny area to generate electricity? We're talking about a walled off area 25 miles long and 4-8 miles wide. It's smaller than Philadelphia.

Gaza is flush against the Mediterranean Sea. It's literally a beachside town. They're given billions of dollars to invest in technology to create a freshwater system, electricity, and... Nothing. And, per usual, this is Israel's fault. There's a blockade! yet, somehow, they managed to build miles and miles of underground tunnels and import serious weapons. For some reason, they can't create clean water and electricity but they can create tunnels and weapons. This logic doesn't add up for me.

And yes, Hamas appropriates a lot of the current aid for its own purposes. In addition to all of those limitations.

A LOT...

[MDlaxfan76]

True, but why do you think this is? How much fresh water is available in Gaza? What natural resources are available in that tiny area to generate electricity? We're talking about a walled off area 25 miles long and 4-8 miles wide. It's smaller than Philadelphia.

Gaza is flush against the Mediterranean Sea. It's literally a beachside town. They're given billions of dollars to invest in technology to create a freshwater system, electricity, and... Nothing. And, per usual, this is Israel's fault. There's a blockade! yet, somehow, they managed to build miles and miles of underground tunnels and import serious weapons. For some reason, they can't create clean water and electricity but they can create tunnels and weapons. This logic doesn't add up for me.

And yes, Hamas appropriates a lot of the current aid for its own purposes. In addition to all of those limitations.

A LOT...

I don't know the specific facts on this, but I doubt very much that the Gazans received billions aimed for such purposes, much less that they have remotely received enough to create what you describe.

That said, you are 100% correct, indisputably, that Hamas has siphoned off huge amounts to support their infrastructure and military capacity, paying troops, building tunnels, buying weapons, etc.

The question to me is not whether it could be possible to create a highly attractive city on the sea, it's whether a situation can be created that Gazans who wish for such prosperity and peace are actually in control and can maintain control in the face of Hamas or their ilk. With those types being funded by outside parties, including Iran, who wish to permanently disrupt chances for peace.

[Seacoaster(1)]

... The resolution of this dispute has to involve an agreed plan for the removal of Hamas as a political and paramilitary force in the region. And that is on all parties -- Gazans, Israelis and their government, and the so-called world community...

Relatively recently, Israel ran Gaza. And factions called Israel occupiers. So Israel stepped away from Gaza (despite enormous push-back from Israelis due to their fears about what would happen when Israel isn't over-seeing the people of Gaza/Hamas... No need to say what did happen) and Hamas was democratically elected to be the new government for Gaza. Again, lots of consternation on the parts of the people of Israel. But that's not my interest. My interest is, At what point is Gaza responsible for Gaza? Gaza doesn't have industries, Gazans don't have jobs, Gazans don't have clean enough water, etc. which is quickly followed by, Why isn't Israel fixing this?! Look what Israel is doing to the Gazans! Keep in mind, the world and Gaza demanded that Israel step away, the Gazans (Hamas) were given billions of dollars to resolve these issues and, of their own accord, they built tunnels, they bought weapons, etc. The Gazans are not living large. Anyone can recognize this but my question is, When does the responsibility for this situation fall squarely on the Gazans and become removed from Israel? If the world wants to throw money at them, that's up to the world. But at what point does the world stop believing that Gaza and Israel are somehow inextricably connected?

Yes, you have identified one of the many intractable problems here, which, like the other problems, calls for a highly educated, highly nuanced, set of solutions that call for, at their core, reasonableness on the part of all parties. I'm not educated enough in the subject matter to propose solutions. I doubt therefore that I have the nuance and clarity needed for the mission. I'm just a guy on FanLax.

I am not sure I can totally align Gazans with Hamas on account or as a result of the democratic elections that happened there after the "occupiers" withdrew. By totally align I mean -- and I'd guess you know this -- that the actions of Hamas are utterly coextensive with and the same as the actions of the territory and all of its citizens, such that those citizens are stuck with the consequences of Hamas paramilitaries. What kind of election was had? Was Hamas's electoral win convincing, or narrow? Did Gazans have any realtime influence over the actions of leadership once it was elected and vested with the powers of the office?

But I do take your point: at a certain point the citizenry becomes culpable for the actions of the leadership it "elects" or at least permits.

Thanks for the discussion; it is much appreciated.

[Baducchi]

I don't know the specific facts on this, but I doubt very much that the Gazans received billions aimed for such purposes, much less that they have remotely received enough to create what you describe.

Neither do I. I'm just making the point that Gaza seems to be extremely resourceful when it comes to creating a military arsenal to attack Israel but substantially less resourceful when it comes to creating a healthy, peaceful situation for themselves.

... whether a situation can be created that Gazans who wish for such prosperity and peace are actually in control and can maintain control in the face of Hamas or their ilk...

As long as Hamas is in Gaza, nothing improves for the Gazans. The Israelis are doing everyone a favor by confronting this Hamas situation. And, post October 7, things will be worse for the Gazans. There were kibbutzim in Southern Israel who hired Gazans to work with them on their land, peaceful, idealistic Israelis, and these same Gazan workers collaborated with Hamas to facilitate the October 7 atrocities. Today, even the most peaceful, idealistic Israelis are not in a hurry to reach out to the Gazans. When this war is over, the Gazans will be even more isolated from Israel, from Egypt, from the nations and people who can most effectively help them. Hamas did what they did because Israel was being accepted as a nation in the Middle East. When this war is over, this process will continue and Gaza will be worse for the wear.

[MDlaxfan76]

I don't know the specific facts on this, but I doubt very much that the Gazans received billions aimed for such purposes, much less that they have remotely received enough to create what you describe.

Neither do I. I'm just making the point that Gaza seems to be extremely resourceful when it comes to creating a military arsenal to attack Israel but substantially less resourceful when it comes to creating a healthy, peaceful situation for themselves.

... whether a situation can be created that Gazans who wish for such prosperity and peace are actually in control and can maintain control in the face of Hamas or their ilk...

As long as Hamas is in Gaza, nothing improves for the Gazans. The Israelis are doing everyone a favor by confronting this Hamas situation. And, post October 7, things will be worse for the Gazans. There were kibbutzim in Southern Israel who hired Gazans to work with them on their land, peaceful, idealistic Israelis, and these same Gazan workers collaborated with Hamas to facilitate the October 7 atrocities. Today, even the most peaceful, idealistic Israelis are not in a hurry to reach out to the Gazans. When this war is over, the Gazans will be even more isolated from Israel, from Egypt, from the nations and people who can most effectively help them. Hamas did what they did because Israel was being accepted as a nation in the Middle East. When this war is over, this process will continue and Gaza will be worse for the wear.

Yes, Hamas = very, very bad... and the Netanyahu government greenlit the funding to Hamas going to tunnels and militarization, knowing full well what was being funded.

Why?

They wanted governance of Palestinians split between Hamas and the PLO, and specifically didn't want the much more moderate PLO to control because that could force the question of a two state resolution, which the Netanyahu government now openly admits they never would accept.

Could there be greener pastures on the other side of this tragedy?
Only if Hamas is rejected and the Netanyahu government is replaced by a moderate government.
I think the latter will have to happen first.

[NattyBohChamps04]

True, but why do you think this is? How much fresh water is available in Gaza? What natural resources are available in that tiny area to generate electricity? We're talking about a walled off area 25 miles long and 4-8 miles wide. It's smaller than Philadelphia.

Gaza is flush against the Mediterranean Sea. It's literally a beachside town. They're given billions of dollars to invest in technology to create a freshwater system, electricity, and... Nothing. And, per usual, this is Israel's fault. There's a blockade! yet, somehow, they managed to build miles and miles of underground tunnels and import serious weapons. For some reason, they can't create clean water and electricity but they can create tunnels and weapons. This logic doesn't add up for me.

So we're in agreement that Gaza is unable to provide water and electricity without outside help. No matter who is in charge?

As far as billions invested and "Nothing" isn't true. The EU, UN, and others have helped the Palestinians build multiple desalination plants, solar farms and more in Gaza that were operational prior to this war. Those plants don't cover all of Gaza, but "Nothing" is incorrect.

Also, re-read what I wrote. I never said it was Israel's fault. It's also blockaded by Egypt for what it's worth. Other Arab states don't want to host Palestinian refugees either, which speaks volumes.

This is a crisis decades and centuries in the making. If you think Israel is 100% innocent and hasn't contributed, then you're the same as people who think it's 100% Israel's fault.

The "us vs. them" mentality only perpetuates this mess. Anyone who isn't on board 100% with your cause is a "them" these days, over there and over here.

And Hamas and Netanyahu agrees with that. They think fomenting that division helps their respective causes (money and power for the most part). Hamas was happy attacking and murdering innocents, and they knew Israel's response would be 10 fold, perpetuating the cycle.