Israel and West Bank Settlements

[jhu72]

...... Palestinians and others, wore the Israeli liberals (Palestinians' best hope) down to the point that the difference between left and right on this issue was nonexistent. I have said before, the left in Israel surrendered to the right on this issue.

This. Agree completely. Obviously, this has NOT helped.

Where the F are the Palestinians with a Two State offer, is my question?

THAT is what needs to happen. Because the US, the UN, and the Israelis have tried that.

The one team that hasn't? The Palestinians. Step up, and end this craziness.

... MDlax gave the correct answer; bad, ineffective representation. The Palestinians have been a captured population, captured by the militants who wore the Israeli left down. The Muslim militants won, the Israeli right won (each got what they wanted). Bibi and friends knew what they were talking about. Anyone who really supports an Israel that is not shared, has to support Hamas.

[a fan]

...... Palestinians and others, wore the Israeli liberals (Palestinians' best hope) down to the point that the difference between left and right on this issue was nonexistent. I have said before, the left in Israel surrendered to the right on this issue.

This. Agree completely. Obviously, this has NOT helped.

Where the F are the Palestinians with a Two State offer, is my question?

THAT is what needs to happen. Because the US, the UN, and the Israelis have tried that.

The one team that hasn't? The Palestinians. Step up, and end this craziness.

... MDlax gave the correct answer; bad, ineffective representation.

Then we're stuck.

[jhu72]

... I'll be surprised if it is a stable state. If Bibi kills off Hamas, and the Israeli's take power away from Bibi and his fascist friends based on Bibi's unpopular anti-liberal domestic policies he was trying to institute before October 7 the possibility for a negotiated long term peace exists. If Bibi and friends stay in power, the conditions for long term "rinse and repeat" conflict will remain in place. Bibi and his fascist friends need an external threat, real or imaginary to maintain power!

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

Just wanted to say thank you for your succinct, common sense contributions to this discussion, as it were. You clearly know whereof you speak and don't use an excess of words to demonstrate it.

[jhu72]

Yup. Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah seem to have been removed from history... Personally I am tired of both sides crying how bad the other is and how clean "our" hands are.

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

... it is not a case of whether one is claiming to be an angel, it is a case of both sides and one more than the other (Israel) of pretending they are blameless for the situation. Anyone who knows the history of Palestine knows NO ONE IS BLAMELESS. I would also contend that Israel and their media representatives do claim Hamas is pure evil and by extension, the Palestinians. The Israelis are more than happy for the distinction between the two to go unmentioned. The Israelis only ever mention the distinction when called on it by someone who knows better. They are perfectly happy letting the uniformed believe there is no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.

[OuttaNowhereWregget]

Yup. Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah seem to have been removed from history... Personally I am tired of both sides crying how bad the other is and how clean "our" hands are.

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

... it is not a case of whether one is claiming to be an angel, it is a case of both sides and one more than the other (Israel) of pretending they are blameless for the situation. Anyone who knows the history of Palestine knows NO ONE IS BLAMELESS. I would also contend that Israel and their media representatives do claim Hamas is pure evil and by extension, the Palestinians. The Israelis are more than happy for the distinction between the two to go unmentioned. The Israelis only ever mention the distinction when called on it by someone who knows better. They are perfectly happy letting the uniformed believe there is no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.

These are sweeping generalized statements painted with a broad brush which add absolutely nothing to a reasonable discussion.

[Matnum PI]

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

... it is not a case of whether one is claiming to be an angel, it is a case of both sides and one more than the other (Israel) of pretending they are blameless for the situation. Anyone who knows the history of Palestine knows NO ONE IS BLAMELESS. I would also contend that Israel and their media representatives do claim Hamas is pure evil and by extension, the Palestinians. The Israelis are more than happy for the distinction between the two to go unmentioned. The Israelis only ever mention the distinction when called on it by someone who knows better. They are perfectly happy letting the uniformed believe there is no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.

These are sweeping generalized statements painted with a broad brush which add absolutely nothing to a reasonable discussion.

Agreed.

[kramerica.inc]

As someone with no dog in this fight, where are you seeing Israel blurring the lines on Palestinians/Hamas?
I've never seen/heard Israel call Palestinians evil terrorists or alluded that they were terrorists. But I have certainly heard that same hue and cry repeated a lot. Cant figure this one out.

[Kismet]

To Kram's question/comment - suggest you watch the clip from Bill Maher. The Israelis haven't been negotiating with anyone on the other side for YEARS. They do make a distinction but the Palestinian authorities cannot uncouple themselves from the various terrorist organizations which provides a convenient excuse for Israelis to not negotiate a resolution

[Seacoaster(1)]

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

... it is not a case of whether one is claiming to be an angel, it is a case of both sides and one more than the other (Israel) of pretending they are blameless for the situation. Anyone who knows the history of Palestine knows NO ONE IS BLAMELESS. I would also contend that Israel and their media representatives do claim Hamas is pure evil and by extension, the Palestinians. The Israelis are more than happy for the distinction between the two to go unmentioned. The Israelis only ever mention the distinction when called on it by someone who knows better. They are perfectly happy letting the uniformed believe there is no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.

These are sweeping generalized statements painted with a broad brush which add absolutely nothing to a reasonable discussion.

Agreed.

I don't think any reasonable person believes "because Hamas is evil all Palestinians are evil too." I think most people at least a little interested in the backdrop understand that Hamas leadership uses its population and supposed constituency as human shields and hostages. The tunnels below hospitals and other civilian infrastructure show this in spades, in my judgment. And for this human shield strategy, for now anyway, the Israelis have had enough, at an enormous cost in Palestinian lives (we are at around an estimated 20,000 dead now, I believe) and enormous cost to Israel in world support -- but they are the nation-state living next door to and among people whose stated mission is their elimination from the living world.

The folks who raise the hand of support for the "Palestinian people" need to -- my view anyway -- make absolutely clear that they are similarly supporting an end to the existential threat that the hostage-takers and human shield users, Hamas, pose to the Israeli citizens. I am not seeing enough indictments of Israel that include, in the next, crucial and related breath, the reciprocal commitment to end Hamas.

[Matnum PI]

...I am not seeing enough indictments of Israel that include, in the next, crucial and related breath, the reciprocal commitment to end Hamas.

Agreed and... I think this is the nature of activists. Just plain humans like you and I can say, This and that. Even politicians can say, This and that though they may very much have an agenda to get as much this as possible or they'll get voted out of office. On the other hand, activists can only say, THIS! THIS! THIS! Like the politician, that's their job. To draw attention to 'this'. And you might ask, But what about that? and they will say, THIS! THIS! THIS! Activists have little to no interest in discussing, understanding. Discussing and understanding would temper their raison d'etre. Their interest is purely one directional. By any means necessary, they singularly want to communicate to the world, THIS! THIS! THIS! Period. The nature of being an activist.

[a fan]

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

... it is not a case of whether one is claiming to be an angel, it is a case of both sides and one more than the other (Israel) of pretending they are blameless for the situation. Anyone who knows the history of Palestine knows NO ONE IS BLAMELESS. I would also contend that Israel and their media representatives do claim Hamas is pure evil and by extension, the Palestinians. The Israelis are more than happy for the distinction between the two to go unmentioned. The Israelis only ever mention the distinction when called on it by someone who knows better. They are perfectly happy letting the uniformed believe there is no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.

These are sweeping generalized statements painted with a broad brush which add absolutely nothing to a reasonable discussion.

Agreed.

I don't think any reasonable person believes "because Hamas is evil all Palestinians are evil too." I think most people at least a little interested in the backdrop understand that Hamas leadership uses its population and supposed constituency as human shields and hostages. The tunnels below hospitals and other civilian infrastructure show this in spades, in my judgment. And for this human shield strategy, for now anyway, the Israelis have had enough, at an enormous cost in Palestinian lives (we are at around an estimated 20,000 dead now, I believe) and enormous cost to Israel in world support -- but they are the nation-state living next door to and among people whose stated mission is their elimination from the living world.

The folks who raise the hand of support for the "Palestinian people" need to -- my view anyway -- make absolutely clear that they are similarly supporting an end to the existential threat that the hostage-takers and human shield users, Hamas, pose to the Israeli citizens. I am not seeing enough indictments of Israel that include, in the next, crucial and related breath, the reciprocal commitment to end Hamas.

Ok....so, who is running Palestine, if not Hamas?

[jhu72]

Yup. Irgun, Stern Gang and Haganah seem to have been removed from history... Personally I am tired of both sides crying how bad the other is and how clean "our" hands are.

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

... it is not a case of whether one is claiming to be an angel, it is a case of both sides and one more than the other (Israel) of pretending they are blameless for the situation. Anyone who knows the history of Palestine knows NO ONE IS BLAMELESS. I would also contend that Israel and their media representatives do claim Hamas is pure evil and by extension, the Palestinians. The Israelis are more than happy for the distinction between the two to go unmentioned. The Israelis only ever mention the distinction when called on it by someone who knows better. They are perfectly happy letting the uniformed believe there is no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.

These are sweeping generalized statements painted with a broad brush which add absolutely nothing to a reasonable discussion.

... not much of a defense

[Seacoaster(1)]

No one is claiming to be an angel. No one is claiming the other is pure evil. What was pointed at is Hamas being anything but a terrorist organization and that Israel has never wanted a two-state solution. Both inaccurate.

... it is not a case of whether one is claiming to be an angel, it is a case of both sides and one more than the other (Israel) of pretending they are blameless for the situation. Anyone who knows the history of Palestine knows NO ONE IS BLAMELESS. I would also contend that Israel and their media representatives do claim Hamas is pure evil and by extension, the Palestinians. The Israelis are more than happy for the distinction between the two to go unmentioned. The Israelis only ever mention the distinction when called on it by someone who knows better. They are perfectly happy letting the uniformed believe there is no distinction between the Palestinians and Hamas.

These are sweeping generalized statements painted with a broad brush which add absolutely nothing to a reasonable discussion.

Agreed.

I don't think any reasonable person believes "because Hamas is evil all Palestinians are evil too." I think most people at least a little interested in the backdrop understand that Hamas leadership uses its population and supposed constituency as human shields and hostages. The tunnels below hospitals and other civilian infrastructure show this in spades, in my judgment. And for this human shield strategy, for now anyway, the Israelis have had enough, at an enormous cost in Palestinian lives (we are at around an estimated 20,000 dead now, I believe) and enormous cost to Israel in world support -- but they are the nation-state living next door to and among people whose stated mission is their elimination from the living world.

The folks who raise the hand of support for the "Palestinian people" need to -- my view anyway -- make absolutely clear that they are similarly supporting an end to the existential threat that the hostage-takers and human shield users, Hamas, pose to the Israeli citizens. I am not seeing enough indictments of Israel that include, in the next, crucial and related breath, the reciprocal commitment to end Hamas.

Ok....so, who is running Palestine, if not Hamas?

Exactly; that is one of the questions for the, well, I will call it the "pro-Palestinian" faction of this dispute. Israel is a sovereign whose citizens cannot live under a constant and now plainly credible threat of violence and death. Hamas holds the Palestinian citizenry hostage to its mission of eliminating the State of Israel. The resolution of this dispute has to involve an agreed plan for the removal of Hamas as a political and paramilitary force in the region. And that is on all parties -- Gazans, Israelis and their government, and the so-called world community. Without some accord on this basic issue, I frankly think it is very hard to expect Israel to defend itself, with all of the collateral civilian damage and death that that implies.

So who runs Gaza? How the f*ck do I know? Some interim international coalition, with a mandate to transition Gaza/Palestine into some form of democratic governing body, supported by the international community? Prohibitions on paramilitary organizations? De-militarized like Japan after WW2?

[PizzaSnake]

I've yet to see any mention of the role the JDL and dual American-Israeli citizens (Meir Kahane, Baruch Goldstein, etc.) have played in this saga, particularly with respect to the seizure of West Bank territory. The JDL is a named domestic terrorist organization.

The situation in the area is fraught enough without these external influences adding to the mix. How is it people can have dual citizenship? How is that possible? Being a citizen of a nation is a little more involved than being a member of a book club. What responsibility does the US have for the actions of its citizens?

[cradleandshoot]

There is only one realistic possibility, Hamas declares unconditional surrender throws down their weapons and decide this war is futile. That will likely only happen after Israel has destroyed the present leadership of Hamas and devastated it's infrastructure. That starts with the destruction of all the tunnels under Gaza. I don't think the Israeli government should contemplate any cease fire at the present time. The Hamas terrorists want that desperately. They have no ability at this time to catch their breath and reorganize and redeploy their assets. The carnage in Gaza is horrific but when your adversary uses the citizens of Palestine to blend in and fight behind women and children how do you fight a war like that? They are pleading for humanity. Humanity doesn't survive in this type of warfare. War really is hell, especially this one.

[Seacoaster(1)]

There is only one realistic possibility, Hamas declares unconditional surrender throws down their weapons and decide this war is futile. That will likely only happen after Israel has destroyed the present leadership of Hamas and devastated it's infrastructure. That starts with the destruction of all the tunnels under Gaza. I don't think the Israeli government should contemplate any cease fire at the present time. The Hamas terrorists want that desperately. They have no ability at this time to catch their breath and reorganize and redeploy their assets. The carnage in Gaza is horrific but when your adversary uses the citizens of Palestine to blend in and fight behind women and children how do you fight a war like that? They are pleading for humanity. Humanity doesn't survive in this type of warfare. War really is hell, especially this one.

Yup: "The carnage in Gaza is horrific but when your adversary uses the citizens of Palestine to blend in and fight behind women and children how do you fight a war like that?" This is the question people really have to wrestle with and resolve.

[cradleandshoot]

There is only one realistic possibility, Hamas declares unconditional surrender throws down their weapons and decide this war is futile. That will likely only happen after Israel has destroyed the present leadership of Hamas and devastated it's infrastructure. That starts with the destruction of all the tunnels under Gaza. I don't think the Israeli government should contemplate any cease fire at the present time. The Hamas terrorists want that desperately. They have no ability at this time to catch their breath and reorganize and redeploy their assets. The carnage in Gaza is horrific but when your adversary uses the citizens of Palestine to blend in and fight behind women and children how do you fight a war like that? They are pleading for humanity. Humanity doesn't survive in this type of warfare. War really is hell, especially this one.

Yup: "The carnage in Gaza is horrific but when your adversary uses the citizens of Palestine to blend in and fight behind women and children how do you fight a war like that?" This is the question people really have to wrestle with and resolve.

Your absolutely correct. They keep finding these tunnels under schools, hospitals and countless other civilian buildings. Hell if Hamas wants to fight Israel at least have the courage to fight like soldiers should do. Sadly it is the truly innocent people that wind up suffering. If there is any good to come out of all of this then it needs to be decided once and for all. This never ending conflict has to stop. The Israeli and Palestinian people should have the opportunity to coexist in peace.

[Baducchi]

... The resolution of this dispute has to involve an agreed plan for the removal of Hamas as a political and paramilitary force in the region. And that is on all parties -- Gazans, Israelis and their government, and the so-called world community...

Relatively recently, Israel ran Gaza. And factions called Israel occupiers. So Israel stepped away from Gaza (despite enormous push-back from Israelis due to their fears about what would happen when Israel isn't over-seeing the people of Gaza/Hamas... No need to say what did happen) and Hamas was democratically elected to be the new government for Gaza. Again, lots of consternation on the parts of the people of Israel. But that's not my interest. My interest is, At what point is Gaza responsible for Gaza? Gaza doesn't have industries, Gazans don't have jobs, Gazans don't have clean enough water, etc. which is quickly followed by, Why isn't Israel fixing this?! Look what Israel is doing to the Gazans! Keep in mind, the world and Gaza demanded that Israel step away, the Gazans (Hamas) were given billions of dollars to resolve these issues and, of their own accord, they built tunnels, they bought weapons, etc. The Gazans are not living large. Anyone can recognize this but my question is, When does the responsibility for this situation fall squarely on the Gazans and become removed from Israel? If the world wants to throw money at them, that's up to the world. But at what point does the world stop believing that Gaza and Israel are somehow inextricably connected?

[Baducchi]

... I don't think the Israeli government should contemplate any cease fire at the present time...

And they won't. Israel has been very clear about this. The UN, the US are irrelevant post-October 7. October 7th has lit a fire under the entire Israeli nation. The country was created to be a safe home for the Jews and they will do what they need to do to make sure this is the case.