Sensible Gun Safety

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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by a fan »

WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:13 pm ..................Can a bipartisan gathering of serious minds get together to create a productive dialogue which would allow all sides of the issue to feel comfortable - and thus empowering an important tool of "intercept a criminal and save a victim(s)" to come to practical life? It would take a type of cooperation and "depoliticizing" of the issue to occur that seems unlikely based on the current deeply entrenched and absolutist divide of the (I'm highly simplifying) gun rights vs. no guns camps.
Well, aren't you in that camp of, for example, digging your heels in on Red Flag laws?

Are you willing to give up things you don't want to give up? Because that's what's needed if you want compromise.
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WaffleTwineFaceoff
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

a fan wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:28 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:13 pm ..................Can a bipartisan gathering of serious minds get together to create a productive dialogue which would allow all sides of the issue to feel comfortable - and thus empowering an important tool of "intercept a criminal and save a victim(s)" to come to practical life? It would take a type of cooperation and "depoliticizing" of the issue to occur that seems unlikely based on the current deeply entrenched and absolutist divide of the (I'm highly simplifying) gun rights vs. no guns camps.
Well, aren't you in that camp of, for example, digging your heels in on Red Flag laws?

Are you willing to give up things you don't want to give up? Because that's what's needed if you want compromise.
Correct. Heels dug in. Right up until I see Red Flag laws being written in a way that protects innocent citizens from being either benignly or malignantly harmed by "false Minority Report positives". My post outlined those concerns, and what could be done in writing "Red Flag 2.0 Laws" which might make them tenable to at least a much larger base of gun owners.
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

CU88a wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 2:03 pm Supreme Court refuses to block Illinois assault weapons ban.


https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... apons-ban/


Good News
This might help with understanding this was a field skirmish battle "win", not a "we won the war" win. Basically it ties a bow on the lower court case, leaving a direct superhighway lane to the Supreme Court for the plaintiffs. This 5 minute YouTube video unpacks it better than I ever could:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4NBBfqsW1U
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

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WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:36 pm
a fan wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 3:28 pm
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 5:13 pm ..................Can a bipartisan gathering of serious minds get together to create a productive dialogue which would allow all sides of the issue to feel comfortable - and thus empowering an important tool of "intercept a criminal and save a victim(s)" to come to practical life? It would take a type of cooperation and "depoliticizing" of the issue to occur that seems unlikely based on the current deeply entrenched and absolutist divide of the (I'm highly simplifying) gun rights vs. no guns camps.
Well, aren't you in that camp of, for example, digging your heels in on Red Flag laws?

Are you willing to give up things you don't want to give up? Because that's what's needed if you want compromise.
Correct. Heels dug in. Right up until I see Red Flag laws being written in a way that protects innocent citizens from being either benignly or malignantly harmed by "false Minority Report positives". My post outlined those concerns, and what could be done in writing "Red Flag 2.0 Laws" which might make them tenable to at least a much larger base of gun owners.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your view....you're welcome to have it. I'm simply telling you that YOU are part of the problem, my man, because you're unwilling to compromise.

When you say you want "cooperation and depoliticizing"...you're fibbing. You want YOUR way. And that's fine...but understand that's why nothing is getting done. If you're not willing to compromise, what would make you think that your opposition would?

As for me? I'd much rather we start an Apollo Program for mental health in America, single payer. THAT would fix/temper/help a whole RANGE of problems, violence being one of them.
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by WaffleTwineFaceoff »

a fan wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2023 10:17 pm To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your view....you're welcome to have it. I'm simply telling you that YOU are part of the problem, my man, because you're unwilling to compromise.

When you say you want "cooperation and depoliticizing"...you're fibbing. You want YOUR way. And that's fine...but understand that's why nothing is getting done. If you're not willing to compromise, what would make you think that your opposition would?

As for me? I'd much rather we start an Apollo Program for mental health in America, single payer. THAT would fix/temper/help a whole RANGE of problems, violence being one of them.
To be clear, good sir, the Second, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments of the Bill of Rights are the "problem". I'm not sure that wanting a right "my way" is an unwillingness to compromise. And I'd say it's incumbent upon those seeking to circumvent our Bill of Rights to design a much better system of checks and balances before expecting so much as a single person to feel comfortable giving up those rights. What I have tried to point out is Red Flag laws are flawed, and offer no protections for their misuse and outright abuse. Sorry if I'm not keen on them as they currently are being written. I won't apologize for not being willing to compromise - when I feel those holding the opposite viewpoint are cavalier on my behalf about a right which wouldn't affect them should they have to give it up. See the difference?

On an Apollo Program for Mental Health - please, yes, thank you, happy to have our leaders utilize my tax dollars to send that rocket to the moon. And part of that can be an automatic waving of HIPPA protections for anyone - dead or alive - who commits a mass public shooting. We need to know if and what they were on, or prescribed and not taking (psychosis can kick in when NOT taking a drug). AMA, Psychiatrists, and Big Pharma certainly wouldn't want a bright light shone in that dark corner.
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. John Stuart Mill On Liberty 1859
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

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WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:45 am To be clear, good sir, the Second, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments of the Bill of Rights are the "problem". I'm not sure that wanting a right "my way" is an unwillingness to compromise. And I'd say it's incumbent upon those seeking to circumvent our Bill of Rights to design a much better system of checks and balances before expecting so much as a single person to feel comfortable giving up those rights. What I have tried to point out is Red Flag laws are flawed, and offer no protections for their misuse and outright abuse. Sorry if I'm not keen on them as they currently are being written. I won't apologize for not being willing to compromise
I get all that. We're on the same page....you have a valid point of view. All I'm communicating is that you're unwilling to compromise...so is the other side.

Yet you're telling the forum, in so many words, that you don't know why the two sides won't sit down and hash these issues out.

You know precisely why this is the case now. Intransigence on your side and the other.
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:45 am - when I feel those holding the opposite viewpoint are cavalier on my behalf about a right which wouldn't affect them should they have to give it up. See the difference?
You're forgetting that there are people and communities that have been shredded by nutjob shooters. This right has very much effected them. For example? I'm a Columbine HS grad. Lost my Econ. teacher in that shooting.

Again, not disagreeing with your right to bear arms.
WaffleTwineFaceoff wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:45 am On an Apollo Program for Mental Health - please, yes, thank you, happy to have our leaders utilize my tax dollars to send that rocket to the moon. And part of that can be an automatic waving of HIPPA protections for anyone - dead or alive - who commits a mass public shooting. We need to know if and what they were on, or prescribed and not taking (psychosis can kick in when NOT taking a drug). AMA, Psychiatrists, and Big Pharma certainly wouldn't want a bright light shone in that dark corner.
It's the only rational solution I can think of.....

Appreciate the conversation.
DMac
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by DMac »

Imagine this, both sides, all sides, come to an equitable agreement re "sensible gun safety".
Everything is put in place as a way/as ways to significantly reduce gun violence. How long
before positive results are seen with the 400,000,000 guns out there?
Pizzin' in the wind boyz. 2A, the militia, culture, it aint about laws.
JMHO
kramerica.inc
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by kramerica.inc »

More high profile people becoming staunch 2nd amendment supporters:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/1 ... s-00131214
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by youthathletics »

kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:00 pm More high profile people becoming staunch 2nd amendment supporters:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/1 ... s-00131214
If a known crackhead, holding a gun while high and in his fruit of the looms can still own a gun…..we might as well just shut this thread down.
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

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youthathletics wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:05 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:00 pm More high profile people becoming staunch 2nd amendment supporters:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/1 ... s-00131214
If a known crackhead, holding a gun while high and in his fruit of the looms can still own a gun…..we might as well just shut this thread down.
Was it proven in a court of law that this happened? And if so, was he allowed to appeal the decision in court?

If not.......tough cookies. Welcome to America, my man. Good luck changing these laws.
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by youthathletics »

a fan wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:23 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:05 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:00 pm More high profile people becoming staunch 2nd amendment supporters:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/1 ... s-00131214
If a known crackhead, holding a gun while high and in his fruit of the looms can still own a gun…..we might as well just shut this thread down.
Was it proven in a court of law that this happened? And if so, was he allowed to appeal the decision in court?

If not.......tough cookies. Welcome to America, my man. Good luck changing these laws.
that’s my point. The pictures of this instance was clearly not a concern for the due diligence of Barr and all those that gave him a pass. No reason for Jordan et al, to clean up the mess Barr and others did. That way you can keep hanging your hat on those talking points. 🫣😉
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by kramerica.inc »

H. got a pass for a lot. Guns are the least of it. Barr didn't want to handle the political weight of the revelations. Opens up too large a can of worms. Too ugly. Even for D C.
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by youthathletics »

kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:53 am H. got a pass for a lot. Guns are the least of it. Barr didn't want to handle the political weight of the revelations. Opens up too large a can of worms. Too ugly. Even for D C.
Nonsense kramer. Barr et al, did everything clean as a whistle....just ask afan. ;)
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:41 pm
a fan wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:23 pm
youthathletics wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:05 pm
kramerica.inc wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2023 6:00 pm More high profile people becoming staunch 2nd amendment supporters:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/1 ... s-00131214
If a known crackhead, holding a gun while high and in his fruit of the looms can still own a gun…..we might as well just shut this thread down.
Was it proven in a court of law that this happened? And if so, was he allowed to appeal the decision in court?

If not.......tough cookies. Welcome to America, my man. Good luck changing these laws.
that’s my point. The pictures of this instance was clearly not a concern for the due diligence of Barr and all those that gave him a pass. No reason for Jordan et al, to clean up the mess Barr and others did. That way you can keep hanging your hat on those talking points. 🫣😉
I'm not hanging my hat on anything, my man. I'm laughing that the very gun laws the right wants to keep.....will keep Hunter from getting nailed for this.....and maybe we ought to make a few small tweaks (pun intended) to our gun laws that aren't taking guns from rational gun owners.

Or do you think I want someone hammered on crack to have a freaking gun? ;)
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by a fan »

youthathletics wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:41 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:53 am H. got a pass for a lot. Guns are the least of it. Barr didn't want to handle the political weight of the revelations. Opens up too large a can of worms. Too ugly. Even for D C.
Nonsense kramer. Barr et al, did everything clean as a whistle....just ask afan. ;)
Nope. What I've told you guys....multiple times now....is that the WhistleBlowers complained about Barr's handling of the case.

You and your R buds don't care, because Barr is a Republican, and you don't want to throw stones at him for ANY reason.

You sainted him, and anyone else with the magic R. They're above reproach, and 100% of them are AWESOME at their jobs. :roll: ;)
kramerica.inc
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by kramerica.inc »

a fan wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:16 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:41 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:53 am H. got a pass for a lot. Guns are the least of it. Barr didn't want to handle the political weight of the revelations. Opens up too large a can of worms. Too ugly. Even for D C.
Nonsense kramer. Barr et al, did everything clean as a whistle....just ask afan. ;)
Nope. What I've told you guys....multiple times now....is that the WhistleBlowers complained about Barr's handling of the case.

You and your R buds don't care, because Barr is a Republican, and you don't want to throw stones at him for ANY reason.

You sainted him, and anyone else with the magic R. They're above reproach, and 100% of them are AWESOME at their jobs. :roll: ;)
I am pretty sure we do. We are slinging arrows at Barr right now, aFan.
The guy's another bought-and-sold-for incompetent, and part of the DC problem.
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

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kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:57 am
a fan wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 11:16 am
youthathletics wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:41 am
kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 8:53 am H. got a pass for a lot. Guns are the least of it. Barr didn't want to handle the political weight of the revelations. Opens up too large a can of worms. Too ugly. Even for D C.
Nonsense kramer. Barr et al, did everything clean as a whistle....just ask afan. ;)
Nope. What I've told you guys....multiple times now....is that the WhistleBlowers complained about Barr's handling of the case.

You and your R buds don't care, because Barr is a Republican, and you don't want to throw stones at him for ANY reason.

You sainted him, and anyone else with the magic R. They're above reproach, and 100% of them are AWESOME at their jobs. :roll: ;)
I am pretty sure we do. We are slinging arrows at Barr right now, aFan.
The guy's another bought-and-sold-for incompetent, and part of the DC problem.
I haven't seen a single word from you, or anyone else.....OP Eds...nothing, about how Bill Barr is incompetent. He's been out of office for three years.

Not a single word. Feel free to show me otherwise.

What we got, if you'll recall, was not one single word, and instead, yet ANOTHER conspiracy theory about how the .gov is protecting Joe Biden, while not wanting to hear that every. single. lawyer associated with Hunter's case was a Trump Appointee.
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

Post by kramerica.inc »

Feel free to call it a conspiracy theory, if you want to. But lack of political will to prosecute is a real thing. Altruistic letter of law prosecution is not real. Never has been.
We live in a country where the system and state is free to pursue charges and institute laws based upon a number of factors. And at the heart of it, those factors to prosecute are based upon the "opinion" of politically tied people. And their bosses. And their big donors. It's not just protecting Biden, BTW. Or limited to one side. It's essentially the ruling class and then everyday people. The terminology gets derided because it's so heavily tied to Trump. But if you don't think there is a swamp, and it's populated by the whole political class, of every party, you're incredibly naive.
From small towns to DC. It exists. Look at the power structure in this country. Look at every presidential nominee for the past 60 years. Those are really our best and brightest? In my hometown, look at the family names that are and have been in office for years. I'm talking borderline special needs. Who are the land owners? Developers? Biggest donors? It's the same family names. Along those lines, systemic racism was deemed a conspiracy theory in the United States for decades too. Until people realized it was really happening. You don't think the same people who instituted that systemic racism aren't looking out for their other interests, at all times? Those people have the power and will gladly look the other way, even at a political "opponent," if it means improving/maintaining their own station.
To get along, you gotta go along.
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

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kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 2:26 pm Feel free to call it a conspiracy theory, if you want to. But lack of political will to prosecute is a real thing. Altruistic letter of law prosecution is not real. Never has been.
We live in a country where the system and state is free to pursue charges and institute laws based upon a number of factors. And at the heart of it, those factors to prosecute are based upon the "opinion" of politically tied people. And their bosses. And their big donors. It's not just protecting Biden, BTW. Or limited to one side.
Kram, come on.....that is NOT the sales pitch for the Deep State, and you know it. You're full on gaslighting me here.

The sales pitch is: lifelong Republicans went after Trump to take him down, and are still trying to do it. And that there wasn't a Deep State in DC until Trump showed up. THAT is the pitch you and the other R suspects made, and continue to make. And now you have expanded the Deep State to also mean: "lifelong Republicans at the DoJ and FBI are actively protecting Democrats".

You, and they, have NEVER complained about the Deep State going after a Democrat. Never. Not once. Not one peep, ever. And you NEVER complained about this----not one time------before Trump showed up.

So don't try and come here and pretend like your Deep State complaints is about the protected 1%. If you asked ANYONE on the street what the Deep State meant? NO ONE would give the definition you are handing me here. ;)
kramerica.inc wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2023 2:26 pm It's essentially the ruling class and then everyday people. The terminology gets derided because it's so heavily tied to Trump. But if you don't think there is a swamp, and it's populated by the whole political class, of every party, you're incredibly naive.
From small towns to DC. It exists. Look at the power structure in this country. Look at every presidential nominee for the past 60 years. Those are really our best and brightest? In my hometown, look at the family names that are and have been in office for years. I'm talking borderline special needs. Who are the land owners? Developers? Biggest donors? It's the same family names. Along those lines, systemic racism was deemed a conspiracy theory in the United States for decades too. Until people realized it was really happening. You don't think the same people who instituted that systemic racism aren't looking out for their other interests, at all times? Those people have the power and will gladly look the other way, even at a political "opponent," if it means improving/maintaining their own station.
To get along, you gotta go along.
This is what Hegel called "a night in which all cows are black". In other words: you're describing every government in every country since the formation of governments 1000's of years ago. This is not unique to America, and not unique to any form of government ever invented.

More to the point: you are fully in error in thinking that this is only a "Big Government" program. And you just mentioned what that looks like locally: the "good ol' boy governance" where the landed families with the right connections get the best economic opportunities...and those on the outside (I've experienced this personally) get the "you ain't from around here, are ya boy?" treatment.
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Re: Sensible Gun Safety

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“You lucky I ain’t read wretched yet!”
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