Sensible Gun Safety

[Farfromgeneva]

HOWEVER, I'm not sure what "perpetrators of the worst of the worse violent criminal behavior" means on the "Sensible Gun Safety" thread. Surely that's not to say that gun murders in poor urban neighborhoods are worse than mass shootings wherever they happen? I may have misunderstood, but I'm always wondering what someone is saying when they point to crime in poor urban, typically formerly redlined neighborhoods and don't point to crimes committed by others...If that wasn't the intent, and we're just talking about how murder and rape get treated in any jurisdiction, cool...Are rapes and murders prosecuted more forcefully in say Louisiana when the perp is white? I don't know the answer, but it's a reasonable question given the high rate of homicides in Louisiana...not just New Orleans, all of Louisiana...

Appreciate your thoughtful reply. And goodness no, my intent regarding "worst of worse" spurred by seeing the Baltimore example/article posted, and following that to the making of my earlier post, wasn't intended as a broad stroke or condemnation - but rather a granular case study that seemed to have positive possibilities inherent. I am race/color/gender/creed blind when it comes to violent criminal perpetrators, from rural to inner city. No intent other than "really bad criminals who have been caught doing really bad things" need really meaningful sentencing deterrents. I remember that example years ago about that Stanford swimmer kid who raped that girl and the judge was one of those "We don't want to ruin this fine white man's life over an indiscretion" kind of guy, who was if I recall correctly show to have sentenced a young black man for the same offense with a "We need to lock you up and throw away the key you irredeemable monster" kind of sentence.

A big part of all of this points to reforms such as this threads last day or two of posts, and moving through the system with policing the police (who's unions protect bad apples like the Catholic church did with bad priests), to training law enforcement, to holding our DA's/prosecutors to task for doing or not their jobs well - as gatekeepers of the fork in the road where those who need help and have a chance to be off-ramped toward productive lives - which as a society we all know is an excellent investment - are placed on that path, while the monsters in our midst from hickville to Chicago's south side, are placed forcefully on their earned path to - after a jury of their peers weighs in - serious consequences which is an investment in all of our safety. Judges need oversight with sentencing. Parole boards need oversight. And once someone has completed their debt to society, we do need to do better at having ways they can assimilate and prove they have been rehabilitated.

The cost, commitment, cooperation politically, and consistency needed to begin to make real progress is daunting. And it seems we're stuck with a few hot button issues that keep us divided and take the focus away from any chance for real dialogue and change.

Good post.

How is it you call this a great post (in BOLD), and yet, want less time in jail....if DA's and Prosecutors do their job (and win) to the letter of the law without compromise to the Defense and plea deals reducing the actual charge....the criminals are in jail are far longer. That is against your beliefs just moments ago.

You can’t synthesize information.

Rather challenging when there is double speak...

What is double speak? I am on record for saying part of the problem with law enforcement is lack of quality training. You believe all jurisdictions have the same training? That’s your take?

You also bolded the portion about DA's and Prosecutors (I underlined it) as part of your 'good post' comment, to which you did not address in your latest rebuttal. That, is the double speak to which I am referring, as you earlier argued serving more time in jail will do very little.

I am not sure more time in jail for many criminals will do any good versus working on a solution to create more opportunities and therefore reducing the population of criminals. Many people end up there for a variety of reasons. Locking more than people up for longer periods of times don’t seem to be working. There is a place for conviction without the chance of parole but it seems as though the crux of the problem begins long before that heinous crime is committed. Use the god given intellect that you have to think. For many many crimes, more time in jail is probably counter productive. You know many former “felons”?

You sound even more stupid than you normally do. So why don't we just close all of the prisons and release every god damn one of them?? Will that float your boat there Skippy? After all to paraphrase Father Flanagan there is no such thing as a bad boy. Every hardcore criminal in your eyes is Whitey Marsh just waiting for someone to believe in him. This may come as a stunning revelation to your sensitive nature but there are actually a lot of bad guys out there that have earned their life in prison with no parole sentence. You don't get LIPWNP for singing too loud in the church choir on Sunday.You already knew that though didn't you?

Why don’t you apply that standard to military folks outside their service years?

Double standard is the answer you don’t need to clarify.

People risk their lives for others all the time but only one corner gets this type of treatment despite it being a contractual and agreed upon relationship when it’s referred to as service.

[Farfromgeneva]

One man's opinion who has a few years experience, cradle. As much as we like to "lock 'em up and throw away the key" in the US, prison doesn't work, and we have a whole lot of years of experience that proves that. As the long time leaders in the world of incarcerating people one would think we'd have enough experience to come up with a system that actually does some good.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r ... &FORM=VIRE
Most people are in jail for drugs but lock 'em up and throw away the key god dammit!!!!! I'd say legalize all drugs and stop making criminals out of these people....educate, rehabilitate. Nope, lock 'em up in a cage, put 'em in an environment that is nothing but detrimental to making them productive citizens. That makes sense, eh?
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/st ... fenses.jsp

I'm not saying lock them all up and throw away the key. There are a number of very bad actors that should be locked up for a very long time. I gave the example of Arthur Shawcross. I'm sure your very familiar with Artie. He served 16 years for murdering one young person and in reality was never charged in another murder of a young child. Was 16 years a fair sentence?? When he was paroled for being such a model prisoner they secretly and unknowing to law enforcement relocated him to Rochester. The rest of the story is pure Artie. Is Artie the exception to the rule? Locally where I live there have been a plethora of violent crimes allegedly committed by criminals recently released from prison. A tiger can't change its stripes. Career criminals will most always resort back to what they do best.

Timothy McVeigh every time you insist any service equals sitting next to god in another life as opposed to taking the entire portfolio of an life into account.

[youthathletics]

HOWEVER, I'm not sure what "perpetrators of the worst of the worse violent criminal behavior" means on the "Sensible Gun Safety" thread. Surely that's not to say that gun murders in poor urban neighborhoods are worse than mass shootings wherever they happen? I may have misunderstood, but I'm always wondering what someone is saying when they point to crime in poor urban, typically formerly redlined neighborhoods and don't point to crimes committed by others...If that wasn't the intent, and we're just talking about how murder and rape get treated in any jurisdiction, cool...Are rapes and murders prosecuted more forcefully in say Louisiana when the perp is white? I don't know the answer, but it's a reasonable question given the high rate of homicides in Louisiana...not just New Orleans, all of Louisiana...

Appreciate your thoughtful reply. And goodness no, my intent regarding "worst of worse" spurred by seeing the Baltimore example/article posted, and following that to the making of my earlier post, wasn't intended as a broad stroke or condemnation - but rather a granular case study that seemed to have positive possibilities inherent. I am race/color/gender/creed blind when it comes to violent criminal perpetrators, from rural to inner city. No intent other than "really bad criminals who have been caught doing really bad things" need really meaningful sentencing deterrents. I remember that example years ago about that Stanford swimmer kid who raped that girl and the judge was one of those "We don't want to ruin this fine white man's life over an indiscretion" kind of guy, who was if I recall correctly show to have sentenced a young black man for the same offense with a "We need to lock you up and throw away the key you irredeemable monster" kind of sentence.

A big part of all of this points to reforms such as this threads last day or two of posts, and moving through the system with policing the police (who's unions protect bad apples like the Catholic church did with bad priests), to training law enforcement, to holding our DA's/prosecutors to task for doing or not their jobs well - as gatekeepers of the fork in the road where those who need help and have a chance to be off-ramped toward productive lives - which as a society we all know is an excellent investment - are placed on that path, while the monsters in our midst from hickville to Chicago's south side, are placed forcefully on their earned path to - after a jury of their peers weighs in - serious consequences which is an investment in all of our safety. Judges need oversight with sentencing. Parole boards need oversight. And once someone has completed their debt to society, we do need to do better at having ways they can assimilate and prove they have been rehabilitated.

The cost, commitment, cooperation politically, and consistency needed to begin to make real progress is daunting. And it seems we're stuck with a few hot button issues that keep us divided and take the focus away from any chance for real dialogue and change.

Good post.

How is it you call this a great post (in BOLD), and yet, want less time in jail....if DA's and Prosecutors do their job (and win) to the letter of the law without compromise to the Defense and plea deals reducing the actual charge....the criminals are in jail are far longer. That is against your beliefs just moments ago.

You can’t synthesize information.

Rather challenging when there is double speak...

What is double speak? I am on record for saying part of the problem with law enforcement is lack of quality training. You believe all jurisdictions have the same training? That’s your take?

You also bolded the portion about DA's and Prosecutors (I underlined it) as part of your 'good post' comment, to which you did not address in your latest rebuttal. That, is the double speak to which I am referring, as you earlier argued serving more time in jail will do very little.

I am not sure more time in jail for many criminals will do any good versus working on a solution to create more opportunities and therefore reducing the population of criminals. Many people end up there for a variety of reasons. Locking more than people up for longer periods of times don’t seem to be working. There is a place for conviction without the chance of parole but it seems as though the crux of the problem begins long before that heinous crime is committed. Use the god given intellect that you have to think. For many many crimes, more time in jail is probably counter productive. You know many former “felons”?

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

“Keep “them” in jail longer” won’t change much of anything.

While we're at it, just give them their gun back when they leave early.... I'm sure there are more people for them to victimize. Maybe if they go in the military or find recovery in religion, you can then blame that, like you did earlier today. Or just dole out about 20k per teen in areas where there is gun violence....will that cover it? What's that cash upfront going to fix...maybe a new set of rims, self-help books, private school?

It's really hard to leave the city and absolve yourself from criminal activity when your focus is making cash with little effort and your value for human life outside immediate family, is essentially zero. They are really just lazy opportunists, that need more time in structured institutions away from the crime riddled comforts from which they grew up.

We are talking about hardened criminals here..."Gun Thread", right? Not, caught for weed, or minor offenses. I've noted this elsewhere, crime rates in other countries are significantly lower and there is arguably a correlation between how miserable your life will become once you enter the correctional world and the presence of law enforcement to protect the citizens. A country like SK comes to mind...their prisons are miserable and everyone knows it...you don't want to end up there, coupled with a strong police presence. You seldom ever worry about being a victim of a crime in SK. This website is great and has a ton of data.....of note, countries that are full democracies have a greater resilience to crime over their authoritarian counterparts. The comparison does a nice job explaining the significant differences and you can see where we get in our own way. So b/c SK is so hard on crime and immersed in society with their law enforcement, civil crime is rather low, whereas we tend do the opposite and provide less law enforcement and more leniency with incarceration terms.

I am sure you have noticed that when you travel abroad, one of the first things they tell you is don't terd-Around, or you will Find-Out why you should not have Phucked-Around.

[Typical Lax Dad]

HOWEVER, I'm not sure what "perpetrators of the worst of the worse violent criminal behavior" means on the "Sensible Gun Safety" thread. Surely that's not to say that gun murders in poor urban neighborhoods are worse than mass shootings wherever they happen? I may have misunderstood, but I'm always wondering what someone is saying when they point to crime in poor urban, typically formerly redlined neighborhoods and don't point to crimes committed by others...If that wasn't the intent, and we're just talking about how murder and rape get treated in any jurisdiction, cool...Are rapes and murders prosecuted more forcefully in say Louisiana when the perp is white? I don't know the answer, but it's a reasonable question given the high rate of homicides in Louisiana...not just New Orleans, all of Louisiana...

Appreciate your thoughtful reply. And goodness no, my intent regarding "worst of worse" spurred by seeing the Baltimore example/article posted, and following that to the making of my earlier post, wasn't intended as a broad stroke or condemnation - but rather a granular case study that seemed to have positive possibilities inherent. I am race/color/gender/creed blind when it comes to violent criminal perpetrators, from rural to inner city. No intent other than "really bad criminals who have been caught doing really bad things" need really meaningful sentencing deterrents. I remember that example years ago about that Stanford swimmer kid who raped that girl and the judge was one of those "We don't want to ruin this fine white man's life over an indiscretion" kind of guy, who was if I recall correctly show to have sentenced a young black man for the same offense with a "We need to lock you up and throw away the key you irredeemable monster" kind of sentence.

A big part of all of this points to reforms such as this threads last day or two of posts, and moving through the system with policing the police (who's unions protect bad apples like the Catholic church did with bad priests), to training law enforcement, to holding our DA's/prosecutors to task for doing or not their jobs well - as gatekeepers of the fork in the road where those who need help and have a chance to be off-ramped toward productive lives - which as a society we all know is an excellent investment - are placed on that path, while the monsters in our midst from hickville to Chicago's south side, are placed forcefully on their earned path to - after a jury of their peers weighs in - serious consequences which is an investment in all of our safety. Judges need oversight with sentencing. Parole boards need oversight. And once someone has completed their debt to society, we do need to do better at having ways they can assimilate and prove they have been rehabilitated.

The cost, commitment, cooperation politically, and consistency needed to begin to make real progress is daunting. And it seems we're stuck with a few hot button issues that keep us divided and take the focus away from any chance for real dialogue and change.

Good post.

How is it you call this a great post (in BOLD), and yet, want less time in jail....if DA's and Prosecutors do their job (and win) to the letter of the law without compromise to the Defense and plea deals reducing the actual charge....the criminals are in jail are far longer. That is against your beliefs just moments ago.

You can’t synthesize information.

Rather challenging when there is double speak...

What is double speak? I am on record for saying part of the problem with law enforcement is lack of quality training. You believe all jurisdictions have the same training? That’s your take?

You also bolded the portion about DA's and Prosecutors (I underlined it) as part of your 'good post' comment, to which you did not address in your latest rebuttal. That, is the double speak to which I am referring, as you earlier argued serving more time in jail will do very little.

PAB, Mike Nifong couldn’t have done a better job. Synthesize information you have gathered over the years.

[youthathletics]

HOWEVER, I'm not sure what "perpetrators of the worst of the worse violent criminal behavior" means on the "Sensible Gun Safety" thread. Surely that's not to say that gun murders in poor urban neighborhoods are worse than mass shootings wherever they happen? I may have misunderstood, but I'm always wondering what someone is saying when they point to crime in poor urban, typically formerly redlined neighborhoods and don't point to crimes committed by others...If that wasn't the intent, and we're just talking about how murder and rape get treated in any jurisdiction, cool...Are rapes and murders prosecuted more forcefully in say Louisiana when the perp is white? I don't know the answer, but it's a reasonable question given the high rate of homicides in Louisiana...not just New Orleans, all of Louisiana...

Appreciate your thoughtful reply. And goodness no, my intent regarding "worst of worse" spurred by seeing the Baltimore example/article posted, and following that to the making of my earlier post, wasn't intended as a broad stroke or condemnation - but rather a granular case study that seemed to have positive possibilities inherent. I am race/color/gender/creed blind when it comes to violent criminal perpetrators, from rural to inner city. No intent other than "really bad criminals who have been caught doing really bad things" need really meaningful sentencing deterrents. I remember that example years ago about that Stanford swimmer kid who raped that girl and the judge was one of those "We don't want to ruin this fine white man's life over an indiscretion" kind of guy, who was if I recall correctly show to have sentenced a young black man for the same offense with a "We need to lock you up and throw away the key you irredeemable monster" kind of sentence.

A big part of all of this points to reforms such as this threads last day or two of posts, and moving through the system with policing the police (who's unions protect bad apples like the Catholic church did with bad priests), to training law enforcement, to holding our DA's/prosecutors to task for doing or not their jobs well - as gatekeepers of the fork in the road where those who need help and have a chance to be off-ramped toward productive lives - which as a society we all know is an excellent investment - are placed on that path, while the monsters in our midst from hickville to Chicago's south side, are placed forcefully on their earned path to - after a jury of their peers weighs in - serious consequences which is an investment in all of our safety. Judges need oversight with sentencing. Parole boards need oversight. And once someone has completed their debt to society, we do need to do better at having ways they can assimilate and prove they have been rehabilitated.

The cost, commitment, cooperation politically, and consistency needed to begin to make real progress is daunting. And it seems we're stuck with a few hot button issues that keep us divided and take the focus away from any chance for real dialogue and change.

Good post.

How is it you call this a great post (in BOLD), and yet, want less time in jail....if DA's and Prosecutors do their job (and win) to the letter of the law without compromise to the Defense and plea deals reducing the actual charge....the criminals are in jail are far longer. That is against your beliefs just moments ago.

You can’t synthesize information.

Rather challenging when there is double speak...

What is double speak? I am on record for saying part of the problem with law enforcement is lack of quality training. You believe all jurisdictions have the same training? That’s your take?

You also bolded the portion about DA's and Prosecutors (I underlined it) as part of your 'good post' comment, to which you did not address in your latest rebuttal. That, is the double speak to which I am referring, as you earlier argued serving more time in jail will do very little.

PAB, Mike Nifong couldn’t have done a better job. Synthesize information you have gathered over the years.

Doubling down I see....Project much? Your tunnel vision is stuck in the past, confirmation bias about inequities in certain demos seems prevalent in many of your posts...you should consider doing the very thing you accuse of others of not doing.

My recent post with the link to global crime and SK, clearly shows the breadth of vision on the topic, rather than your one liner accusatory zings without correcting your double speak.

[Farfromgeneva]

HOWEVER, I'm not sure what "perpetrators of the worst of the worse violent criminal behavior" means on the "Sensible Gun Safety" thread. Surely that's not to say that gun murders in poor urban neighborhoods are worse than mass shootings wherever they happen? I may have misunderstood, but I'm always wondering what someone is saying when they point to crime in poor urban, typically formerly redlined neighborhoods and don't point to crimes committed by others...If that wasn't the intent, and we're just talking about how murder and rape get treated in any jurisdiction, cool...Are rapes and murders prosecuted more forcefully in say Louisiana when the perp is white? I don't know the answer, but it's a reasonable question given the high rate of homicides in Louisiana...not just New Orleans, all of Louisiana...

Appreciate your thoughtful reply. And goodness no, my intent regarding "worst of worse" spurred by seeing the Baltimore example/article posted, and following that to the making of my earlier post, wasn't intended as a broad stroke or condemnation - but rather a granular case study that seemed to have positive possibilities inherent. I am race/color/gender/creed blind when it comes to violent criminal perpetrators, from rural to inner city. No intent other than "really bad criminals who have been caught doing really bad things" need really meaningful sentencing deterrents. I remember that example years ago about that Stanford swimmer kid who raped that girl and the judge was one of those "We don't want to ruin this fine white man's life over an indiscretion" kind of guy, who was if I recall correctly show to have sentenced a young black man for the same offense with a "We need to lock you up and throw away the key you irredeemable monster" kind of sentence.

A big part of all of this points to reforms such as this threads last day or two of posts, and moving through the system with policing the police (who's unions protect bad apples like the Catholic church did with bad priests), to training law enforcement, to holding our DA's/prosecutors to task for doing or not their jobs well - as gatekeepers of the fork in the road where those who need help and have a chance to be off-ramped toward productive lives - which as a society we all know is an excellent investment - are placed on that path, while the monsters in our midst from hickville to Chicago's south side, are placed forcefully on their earned path to - after a jury of their peers weighs in - serious consequences which is an investment in all of our safety. Judges need oversight with sentencing. Parole boards need oversight. And once someone has completed their debt to society, we do need to do better at having ways they can assimilate and prove they have been rehabilitated.

The cost, commitment, cooperation politically, and consistency needed to begin to make real progress is daunting. And it seems we're stuck with a few hot button issues that keep us divided and take the focus away from any chance for real dialogue and change.

Good post.

How is it you call this a great post (in BOLD), and yet, want less time in jail....if DA's and Prosecutors do their job (and win) to the letter of the law without compromise to the Defense and plea deals reducing the actual charge....the criminals are in jail are far longer. That is against your beliefs just moments ago.

You can’t synthesize information.

Rather challenging when there is double speak...

What is double speak? I am on record for saying part of the problem with law enforcement is lack of quality training. You believe all jurisdictions have the same training? That’s your take?

You also bolded the portion about DA's and Prosecutors (I underlined it) as part of your 'good post' comment, to which you did not address in your latest rebuttal. That, is the double speak to which I am referring, as you earlier argued serving more time in jail will do very little.

I am not sure more time in jail for many criminals will do any good versus working on a solution to create more opportunities and therefore reducing the population of criminals. Many people end up there for a variety of reasons. Locking more than people up for longer periods of times don’t seem to be working. There is a place for conviction without the chance of parole but it seems as though the crux of the problem begins long before that heinous crime is committed. Use the god given intellect that you have to think. For many many crimes, more time in jail is probably counter productive. You know many former “felons”?

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

“Keep “them” in jail longer” won’t change much of anything.

While we're at it, just give them their gun back when they leave early.... I'm sure there are more people for them to victimize. Maybe if they go in the military or find recovery in religion, you can then blame that, like you did earlier today. Or just dole out about 20k per teen in areas where there is gun violence....will that cover it? What's that cash upfront going to fix...maybe a new set of rims, self-help books, private school?

It's really hard to leave the city and absolve yourself from criminal activity when your focus is making cash with little effort and your value for human life outside immediate family, is essentially zero. They are really just lazy opportunists, that need more time in structured institutions away from the crime riddled comforts from which they grew up.

We are talking about hardened criminals here..."Gun Thread", right? Not, caught for weed, or minor offenses. I've noted this elsewhere, crime rates in other countries are significantly lower and there is arguably a correlation between how miserable your life will become once you enter the correctional world and the presence of law enforcement to protect the citizens. A country like SK comes to mind...their prisons are miserable and everyone knows it...you don't want to end up there, coupled with a strong police presence. You seldom ever worry about being a victim of a crime in SK. This website is great and has a ton of data.....of note, countries that are full democracies have a greater resilience to crime over their authoritarian counterparts. The comparison does a nice job explaining the significant differences and you can see where we get in our own way. So b/c SK is so hard on crime and immersed in society with their law enforcement, civil crime is rather low, whereas we tend do the opposite and provide less law enforcement and more leniency with incarceration terms.

I am sure you have noticed that when you travel abroad, one of the first things they tell you is don't terd-Around, or you will Find-Out why you should not have Phucked-Around.

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings. Let’s see how AI approaches humans in 20yrs. It also presumed people have perfect information about themselves and self awareness to even make the right decisions. Do you believe that’s the case? If you do there’s no way of squaring that circle here.

I have a friend who got tossed from the Foreign Service Officer program because of a bad mix of overt the counter medicine for what he thought was a cold and no one ever caught it until he was 25-26 post graduate degree in DC. Is that his fault because he hadn’t decided to make a change?

[Farfromgeneva]

HOWEVER, I'm not sure what "perpetrators of the worst of the worse violent criminal behavior" means on the "Sensible Gun Safety" thread. Surely that's not to say that gun murders in poor urban neighborhoods are worse than mass shootings wherever they happen? I may have misunderstood, but I'm always wondering what someone is saying when they point to crime in poor urban, typically formerly redlined neighborhoods and don't point to crimes committed by others...If that wasn't the intent, and we're just talking about how murder and rape get treated in any jurisdiction, cool...Are rapes and murders prosecuted more forcefully in say Louisiana when the perp is white? I don't know the answer, but it's a reasonable question given the high rate of homicides in Louisiana...not just New Orleans, all of Louisiana...

Appreciate your thoughtful reply. And goodness no, my intent regarding "worst of worse" spurred by seeing the Baltimore example/article posted, and following that to the making of my earlier post, wasn't intended as a broad stroke or condemnation - but rather a granular case study that seemed to have positive possibilities inherent. I am race/color/gender/creed blind when it comes to violent criminal perpetrators, from rural to inner city. No intent other than "really bad criminals who have been caught doing really bad things" need really meaningful sentencing deterrents. I remember that example years ago about that Stanford swimmer kid who raped that girl and the judge was one of those "We don't want to ruin this fine white man's life over an indiscretion" kind of guy, who was if I recall correctly show to have sentenced a young black man for the same offense with a "We need to lock you up and throw away the key you irredeemable monster" kind of sentence.

A big part of all of this points to reforms such as this threads last day or two of posts, and moving through the system with policing the police (who's unions protect bad apples like the Catholic church did with bad priests), to training law enforcement, to holding our DA's/prosecutors to task for doing or not their jobs well - as gatekeepers of the fork in the road where those who need help and have a chance to be off-ramped toward productive lives - which as a society we all know is an excellent investment - are placed on that path, while the monsters in our midst from hickville to Chicago's south side, are placed forcefully on their earned path to - after a jury of their peers weighs in - serious consequences which is an investment in all of our safety. Judges need oversight with sentencing. Parole boards need oversight. And once someone has completed their debt to society, we do need to do better at having ways they can assimilate and prove they have been rehabilitated.

The cost, commitment, cooperation politically, and consistency needed to begin to make real progress is daunting. And it seems we're stuck with a few hot button issues that keep us divided and take the focus away from any chance for real dialogue and change.

Good post.

How is it you call this a great post (in BOLD), and yet, want less time in jail....if DA's and Prosecutors do their job (and win) to the letter of the law without compromise to the Defense and plea deals reducing the actual charge....the criminals are in jail are far longer. That is against your beliefs just moments ago.

You can’t synthesize information.

Rather challenging when there is double speak...

What is double speak? I am on record for saying part of the problem with law enforcement is lack of quality training. You believe all jurisdictions have the same training? That’s your take?

You also bolded the portion about DA's and Prosecutors (I underlined it) as part of your 'good post' comment, to which you did not address in your latest rebuttal. That, is the double speak to which I am referring, as you earlier argued serving more time in jail will do very little.

I am not sure more time in jail for many criminals will do any good versus working on a solution to create more opportunities and therefore reducing the population of criminals. Many people end up there for a variety of reasons. Locking more than people up for longer periods of times don’t seem to be working. There is a place for conviction without the chance of parole but it seems as though the crux of the problem begins long before that heinous crime is committed. Use the god given intellect that you have to think. For many many crimes, more time in jail is probably counter productive. You know many former “felons”?

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

“Keep “them” in jail longer” won’t change much of anything.

While we're at it, just give them their gun back when they leave early.... I'm sure there are more people for them to victimize. Maybe if they go in the military or find recovery in religion, you can then blame that, like you did earlier today. Or just dole out about 20k per teen in areas where there is gun violence....will that cover it? What's that cash upfront going to fix...maybe a new set of rims, self-help books, private school?

It's really hard to leave the city and absolve yourself from criminal activity when your focus is making cash with little effort and your value for human life outside immediate family, is essentially zero. They are really just lazy opportunists, that need more time in structured institutions away from the crime riddled comforts from which they grew up.

We are talking about hardened criminals here..."Gun Thread", right? Not, caught for weed, or minor offenses. I've noted this elsewhere, crime rates in other countries are significantly lower and there is arguably a correlation between how miserable your life will become once you enter the correctional world and the presence of law enforcement to protect the citizens. A country like SK comes to mind...their prisons are miserable and everyone knows it...you don't want to end up there, coupled with a strong police presence. You seldom ever worry about being a victim of a crime in SK. This website is great and has a ton of data.....of note, countries that are full democracies have a greater resilience to crime over their authoritarian counterparts. The comparison does a nice job explaining the significant differences and you can see where we get in our own way. So b/c SK is so hard on crime and immersed in society with their law enforcement, civil crime is rather low, whereas we tend do the opposite and provide less law enforcement and more leniency with incarceration terms.

I am sure you have noticed that when you travel abroad, one of the first things they tell you is don't terd-Around, or you will Find-Out why you should not have Phucked-Around.

https://nextcity.org/urbanist-news/dani ... he%20crime.

[Farfromgeneva]

The Danish Prison System

By: Galen Foote

November 30, 2012

ShareFacebookXLinkedInPrint
There are two competing theories regarding the way societies should treat criminals. One is the theory of retribution; the idea that criminals must pay for their crimes through punishment that is proportional to their crime. This theory is focused on punishment and less on the factors, including societal ones, that may have lead to the crime. Around the world studies have show that a retributive system creates a divide between prisoners and society, encourages future criminality, and thus the rate of recidivism.

Then there is the theory of rehabilitation, which is the core philosophy of the Danish prison system. It encourages solving the problems that led an individual to crime rather than punishing the crime itself. It works to retrain and reintegrate criminals back into society.

The features of this system are based on the idea of “normalization,” where the prisoner’s environment closely resembles the outside world that they will ideally return to and function in. In fact, most Danish prisoners, usually those with sentences shorter than five years, live in open prisons, which typically lack walls and the security features we normally associate with prisons.

The prisoners attend classes, work a standard Danish workweek (37 hours), and even do their own shopping and cooking. Married couples are often allowed to live together and even with their children if under 3 years old. The result, seemingly, is an extremely low rate of recidivism. Inmates are able to easily transition from prison to everyday life.

In comparison with the United States, Denmark has 73 prisoners for every 100,000 residents, while the United States has 730. Denmark has a recidivism rate of 27 percent while the United States has one of 52 percent.

Danish system also relies on handing out short sentences. The average sentence is six months, and only two percent are over two years. In fact, more than half of sentences are three months or less. Not surprisingly, a Danish man facing child pornography charges in the United States requested to be sentenced in Denmark, where he would likely only face six years.

Of course the worry some Danes have is whether the system is too soft. One value of a system of retribution is that it could deter future crime. Life in a Danish open prison is far from ideal, but it is much better than most prisons in the United States. One prison guard found a 100 gram lump of hashish in a visitor’s pocket. The guard was reprimanded for breaking the rules by frisking a visitor.

One conservative politician summed up this sentiment: “When we go to the football game, our pockets are checked, when we get on a plane, our pockets are checked, but if you visit a criminal, you can just walk right in.”

While it is often under debate, the Danish model does seem to be effective. The real question is are we looking at causation between the Danish system and low re-incarceration rates, or simply correlation. The Danes live in a country with very low poverty, a low income gap, one of the world’s best social safety nets, and almost no access to guns. Is the success of the Danish model something that can only work in such a society, or should we be experimenting with it in the United States?

[Farfromgeneva]

Conversely there’s an incentive structure problem here as we continue to outsourced to private prisons as the overcrowding is good for business!

https://www.sentencingproject.org/repor ... ed-states/


Private Prisons in the United States

By Kristen M. Budd, Ph.D. and Niki Monazzam
Private for-profit prisons incarcerated 96,370 American residents in 2021, representing 8% of the total state and federal prison population. Since 2000, the number of people housed in private prisons has increased 10%.

Harmful crime policies of the 1980s and beyond fueled a rapid expansion in the nation’s prison population. The resulting burden on the public sector led to the modern emergence of for-profit prisons in many states and the federal system. Of the 1.2 million people in federal and state prisons, 8%, or 96,370 people, were in private prisons as of year end 2021.1

States show significant variation in the use of private prisons. At one end of the spectrum, Montana incarcerates almost half of its prison population in privately run facilities, but in another 23 states, private prisons are not used at all. A total of 27 states and the federal government use private corporations like GEO Group, Core Civic,2 LaSalle Corrections, and Management and Training Corporation to run some of their corrections facilities.

Montana is not alone in its heavy reliance on private prisons. Arizona, Hawaii, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Tennessee rely considerably on private prisons for housing imprisoned people. In these states, between 21% and 45% of the prison population resides in a for-profit prison (See Table 1).

[youthathletics]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

[Farfromgeneva]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

Sorry maybe because others had bolded sections the sort I also bolded in my quoting was missed but had bolded myself your comment. I read it all, but you also haven’t defined “hard and gun crimes” so what about someone who has an irrational fear of danger and commits a gun crime because they fear for something even if society doesn’t recognize that threat as valid? And consider the right wingers position and the MaGA movement and Jan 6 when you answer this, not just those nasty homeboys from the projects.

“Decides to change” as if that’s all there is to it. Fixing depression isn’t like fixing a flat tire.

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

[Typical Lax Dad]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

How do know that increasing incarceration isn’t changing people for the worse. Again, we need to do a better job of investing in our youth. I am a big believer in mandatory social or military service for HS grads with no plan for life after HS. A lot of people end up in the system because of poor choices and lack of opportunities….not because they are bad people. Many ultimately become the hardened criminals you keep ranting about…..I am going to give you a “clue” as to why I believe our system needs improvement…..we have a lot of people in jail that don’t belong there and we have a lot of people on the streets that should be in jail. Do you disagree?….you BAPAB….

[Typical Lax Dad]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

Sorry maybe because others had bolded sections the sort I also bolded in my quoting was missed but had bolded myself your comment. I read it all, but you also haven’t defined “hard and gun crimes” so what about someone who has an irrational fear of danger and commits a gun crime because they fear for something even if society doesn’t recognize that threat as valid? And consider the right wingers position and the MaGA movement and Jan 6 when you answer this, not just those nasty homeboys from the projects.

“Decides to change” as if that’s all there is to it. Fixing depression isn’t like fixing a flat tire.

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

You mean until they are born again. That will fix it.

[Farfromgeneva]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

Sorry maybe because others had bolded sections the sort I also bolded in my quoting was missed but had bolded myself your comment. I read it all, but you also haven’t defined “hard and gun crimes” so what about someone who has an irrational fear of danger and commits a gun crime because they fear for something even if society doesn’t recognize that threat as valid? And consider the right wingers position and the MaGA movement and Jan 6 when you answer this, not just those nasty homeboys from the projects.

“Decides to change” as if that’s all there is to it. Fixing depression isn’t like fixing a flat tire.

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

You mean until they are born again. That will fix it.

I don't understand quite how folks have the "bootraps" mythology ethos and yet buy every sentence in City of God.

[youthathletics]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

Sorry maybe because others had bolded sections the sort I also bolded in my quoting was missed but had bolded myself your comment. I read it all, but you also haven’t defined “hard and gun crimes” so what about someone who has an irrational fear of danger and commits a gun crime because they fear for something even if society doesn’t recognize that threat as valid? And consider the right wingers position and the MaGA movement and Jan 6 when you answer this, not just those nasty homeboys from the projects.

“Decides to change” as if that’s all there is to it. Fixing depression isn’t like fixing a flat tire.

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

In Bold[black] is my point. these people in jail most likely never a had a fighting chance on the street and frankly may not have even understood they had a mental issue that therapy could have help resolve. So when criminals are put in jail, if we keep them there longer than 'time served' based on the crime...and actually treat them for the trauma that likely contributed to their behaviors, we can add value to their lives.

You guys have gone full binary and refuse to 'synthesize' or even add nuance to the subject matter; dog on a bone.

The point that I was making in your large red font, still applies. Where and how is 'money' going to fix a young teen that has been dealt a horrible set of cards with a family of heredity issues in mental illness, addiction, abuse, etc. All that kid knows is trauma, and then subsequently copes with those that identify or accept him as he is...which is more often the poor behavioral demo. Our system, as it it now, has no way to identify kids like this...all our system cares about is money.

TLD and I do agree that kids should have a 13th grade or some semblance of structure and discipline prior to being released into the world post HS.

I'm not sure why you both poke fun at religious God fearing people....rather strange to be honest.

[youthathletics]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

How do know that increasing incarceration isn’t changing people for the worse. Again, we need to do a better job of investing in our youth. I am a big believer in mandatory social or military service for HS grads with no plan for life after HS. A lot of people end up in the system because of poor choices and lack of opportunities….not because they are bad people. Many ultimately become the hardened criminals you keep ranting about…..I am going to give you a “clue” as to why I believe our system needs improvement…..we have a lot of people in jail that don’t belong there and we have a lot of people on the streets that should be in jail. Do you disagree?….you BAPAB….

I know b/c the current system is NOT working, where they know it's NBD and a badge of honor to say I served time with their cohort. So it tells me, we did not serve them well while incarcerated...they need more time and attention to the why they are there in the first place; mental health therapy. So if you want to throw money at something....throw it at mental health for those in prison.

Yes, I agree. And they would not view themselves as hardened criminals if they are receiving value for their time served and understand 'the why' they were there in the first place.

Consider SOF members in the military by comparison. Many of them entered the military with similar trauma, little direction, behavioral issues as youth, then experience even more trauma while Operators, coupled with CTE, TBI, PTSD, and prescription drug addictions etc....and then never talk about all mental health struggles within their own community b/c it shows weakness (similar to inner city demo) Only difference.....these men seldom commit crimes and yet have the highest suicide rates. Sure, two different demographics...one commits crime and takes other peoples lives for money and drugs, and the other takes their own life. And the fix......mental health for both work, and often finding purpose in Faith and serving others i the community.

No idea what BAPAB means.

[Farfromgeneva]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

Sorry maybe because others had bolded sections the sort I also bolded in my quoting was missed but had bolded myself your comment. I read it all, but you also haven’t defined “hard and gun crimes” so what about someone who has an irrational fear of danger and commits a gun crime because they fear for something even if society doesn’t recognize that threat as valid? And consider the right wingers position and the MaGA movement and Jan 6 when you answer this, not just those nasty homeboys from the projects.

“Decides to change” as if that’s all there is to it. Fixing depression isn’t like fixing a flat tire.

That is the point, money will never fix genetics, heredity, family upbringing, and trauma, until that person decides to change their behavior and generational familial course. It ain't gonna happen by sending home a check and we already have hundreds of available avenues for youth to get support and help....as I noted:

In Bold[black] is my point. these people in jail most likely never a had a fighting chance on the street and frankly may not have even understood they had a mental issue that therapy could have help resolve. So when criminals are put in jail, if we keep them there longer than 'time served' based on the crime...and actually treat them for the trauma that likely contributed to their behaviors, we can add value to their lives.

You guys have gone full binary and refuse to 'synthesize' or even add nuance to the subject matter; dog on a bone.

The point that I was making in your large red font, still applies. Where and how is 'money' going to fix a young teen that has been dealt a horrible set of cards with a family of heredity issues in mental illness, addiction, abuse, etc. All that kid knows is trauma, and then subsequently copes with those that identify or accept him as he is...which is more often the poor behavioral demo. Our system, as it it now, has no way to identify kids like this...all our system cares about is money.

TLD and I do agree that kids should have a 13th grade or some semblance of structure and discipline prior to being released into the world post HS.

I'm not sure why you both poke fun at religious God fearing people....rather strange to be honest.

Well I made a change in my life and one jerk here refuses to believe it’s possible…but I had dough, more friends than I realized who would lay down for me, a whole lot of things. There’s a whole ton of people who thinks it’s laziness or inertia and that’s so very far from reality as to be disconnected from reality.

I don’t have a problem with “god fearing people” I was at my church today doing wreath stuff this am with my free time instead of getting some desktop work I need to get done completed and going to have to miss watching the Tide roll all over some whack “dawgs” this afternoon. Have developed some meaningful relationships with people there. I just leave whatever I see or get there inside those doors and don’t force the people who don’t live with that philosophy to live under those views. And I let it inform with defining me as a datapoints in my life not the autobiography. I like fun at people who decide to not allow anything in life outside of god in, let it hurt other people and aspect absolution because they followed one interpretation of “the rules”. I’m and equal opportunity guy in this and you know it.

Laughing and dismissing money/resources as part of the solution to be PROACTIVE and help before the problem rather than REACTIVE which is what all these comments are is just intellectually and practically ludicrous unless one has absolute faith that a higher power will resolve it and quite contrary to believing that people can make changes before they have a problem on their own. It’s about allocation of resources and execution as well as notional amount-there’s tolks that continues to insist sheer size is all that’s needed to win the day and that’s the right approach (if only we had more people in our side like in the reportedly highly highly moderates LP-that’s the same argument, I need more people and I win. Well they should appreciate more money solving this problem but don’t see the dichotomy in those two positions)

We’re trying to solve the condition precedent. Your viewing it from an antecedent perspective. We need to make choices based on a priori knowledge and distribute that knowledge broadly. That’s the first step in solving the problem.

We do have systems to identify but the execution is lacking. That’s the issue .

And yes I’m getting technical so Cradle can come in and tell me how he gets things so much better than me while not understanding anything I wrote one tiny bit. Never bothering to make the effort or decision to understand himself before shooting from the hip like Yosemite Sam.

[Typical Lax Dad]

This is a fully religious viewpoint that rejects biochemistry in human beings

Not following you on the religious viewpoint comment....or even how you connected the two. The entire conversation is about hard crime and Guns....I even spelled that out, I am guessing you did not read all of what I wrote. No clue what your point is about your friend....again, you lost me

How do know that increasing incarceration isn’t changing people for the worse. Again, we need to do a better job of investing in our youth. I am a big believer in mandatory social or military service for HS grads with no plan for life after HS. A lot of people end up in the system because of poor choices and lack of opportunities….not because they are bad people. Many ultimately become the hardened criminals you keep ranting about…..I am going to give you a “clue” as to why I believe our system needs improvement…..we have a lot of people in jail that don’t belong there and we have a lot of people on the streets that should be in jail. Do you disagree?….you BAPAB….

I know b/c the current system is NOT working, where they know it's NBD and a badge of honor to say I served time with their cohort. So it tells me, we did not serve them well while incarcerated...they need more time and attention to the why they are there in the first place; mental health therapy. So if you want to throw money at something....throw it at mental health for those in prison.

Yes, I agree. And they would not view themselves as hardened criminals if they are receiving value for their time served and understand 'the why' they were there in the first place.

Consider SOF members in the military by comparison. Many of them entered the military with similar trauma, little direction, behavioral issues as youth, then experience even more trauma while Operators, coupled with CTE, TBI, PTSD, and prescription drug addictions etc....and then never talk about all mental health struggles within their own community b/c it shows weakness (similar to inner city demo) Only difference.....these men seldom commit crimes and yet have the highest suicide rates. Sure, two different demographics...one commits crime and takes other peoples lives for money and drugs, and the other takes their own life. And the fix......mental health for both work, and often finding purpose in Faith and serving others i the community.

No idea what BAPAB means.

We can do better. We have the highest incarceration rates and crime rates amongst our first world peers. More prisons and more time isn’t the answer. We would do better with early childhood intervention and something post high school. The prison industry shouldn’t be a growth industry.

[cradleandshoot]

One man's opinion who has a few years experience, cradle. As much as we like to "lock 'em up and throw away the key" in the US, prison doesn't work, and we have a whole lot of years of experience that proves that. As the long time leaders in the world of incarcerating people one would think we'd have enough experience to come up with a system that actually does some good.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r ... &FORM=VIRE
Most people are in jail for drugs but lock 'em up and throw away the key god dammit!!!!! I'd say legalize all drugs and stop making criminals out of these people....educate, rehabilitate. Nope, lock 'em up in a cage, put 'em in an environment that is nothing but detrimental to making them productive citizens. That makes sense, eh?
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/st ... fenses.jsp

I'm not saying lock them all up and throw away the key. There are a number of very bad actors that should be locked up for a very long time. I gave the example of Arthur Shawcross. I'm sure your very familiar with Artie. He served 16 years for murdering one young person and in reality was never charged in another murder of a young child. Was 16 years a fair sentence?? When he was paroled for being such a model prisoner they secretly and unknowing to law enforcement relocated him to Rochester. The rest of the story is pure Artie. Is Artie the exception to the rule? Locally where I live there have been a plethora of violent crimes allegedly committed by criminals recently released from prison. A tiger can't change its stripes. Career criminals will most always resort back to what they do best.

Timothy McVeigh every time you insist any service equals sitting next to god in another life as opposed to taking the entire portfolio of an life into account.

The last time I remember there pilgrim Timothy McVeigh was executed by the federal government for his crimes. Apparently you forgot that simple fact? Arthur Shawcross murdered 2 young children in Watertown in the early 70s. He was released after 16 years for being a model prisoner. He then chose to murder prostitutes in the Rochester area for quite awhile. He murdered 11 prostitutes before the model prisoner he was was finally caught and sent to prison where he died. Just thought I would catch you up to speed since you are so totally clueless. I'm glad to help you out there pilgrim.

[Farfromgeneva]

One man's opinion who has a few years experience, cradle. As much as we like to "lock 'em up and throw away the key" in the US, prison doesn't work, and we have a whole lot of years of experience that proves that. As the long time leaders in the world of incarcerating people one would think we'd have enough experience to come up with a system that actually does some good.
https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r ... &FORM=VIRE
Most people are in jail for drugs but lock 'em up and throw away the key god dammit!!!!! I'd say legalize all drugs and stop making criminals out of these people....educate, rehabilitate. Nope, lock 'em up in a cage, put 'em in an environment that is nothing but detrimental to making them productive citizens. That makes sense, eh?
https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/st ... fenses.jsp

I'm not saying lock them all up and throw away the key. There are a number of very bad actors that should be locked up for a very long time. I gave the example of Arthur Shawcross. I'm sure your very familiar with Artie. He served 16 years for murdering one young person and in reality was never charged in another murder of a young child. Was 16 years a fair sentence?? When he was paroled for being such a model prisoner they secretly and unknowing to law enforcement relocated him to Rochester. The rest of the story is pure Artie. Is Artie the exception to the rule? Locally where I live there have been a plethora of violent crimes allegedly committed by criminals recently released from prison. A tiger can't change its stripes. Career criminals will most always resort back to what they do best.

Timothy McVeigh every time you insist any service equals sitting next to god in another life as opposed to taking the entire portfolio of an life into account.

The last time I remember there pilgrim Timothy McVeigh was executed by the federal government for his crimes. Apparently you forgot that simple fact? Arthur Shawcross murdered 2 young children in Watertown in the early 70s. He was released after 16 years for being a model prisoner. He then chose to murder prostitutes in the Rochester area for quite awhile. He murdered 11 prostitutes before the model prisoner he was was finally caught and sent to prison where he died. Just thought I would catch you up to speed since you are so totally clueless. I'm glad to help you out there pilgrim.

Trust me, I don’t get help from people that can’t help themselves…

Besides prostitutes broke the law I’m sure you be live they had it coming because they chose to break the law. Fng kill every criminal!