Orange Duce

The odds are excellent that you will leave this forum hating someone.
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MDlaxfan76
Posts: 27173
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:40 pm

Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:22 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:12 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:17 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:00 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:57 am Disclaimer: This isn't exhaustively researched. Just off the top of my head.


What I liked:

How he treated Israel. Far and away this was my favorite aspect of Trump in the White House.

Straight shooter. He said what he said and didn't mince words. Whether he was right or wrong--he wasn't afraid to say what he thought.

Following through with his campaign promise of building a wall on the border. (Obviously he didn't finish it but, at least he started it.)



What I disliked:

The casual/imprudent, unwise (stupid) way he handled Covid.

His diarrhea of the mouth via Twitter

Condoning the Jew-hating racists at Charlottesville by not ripping and condemning them when given the opportunity.

His embarrassing performance during the first debate with Biden.



With all that said, when I look back on my 60 plus years on this earth, my growing conviction is that it doesn't really matter who's in the White House. My life hasn't really been affected much regardless of who the president was. I'm just a (barely) high school educated blue-collar Beantown scrub. I have always been able to buy food, have a relatively comfortable place to live, go where I want, do what I want, etc. Being compelled to buy health insurance affected my life a little but not too much. Jimmy Carter's talk of the Draft gave me mild anguish for a while. But apart from those two things, I can't think of anything that any administration has done to really truly affect my lower/middle class blue-collar life.

DMac was so right on when he wrote this yesterday: Ds, Rs, libs, conservatives, they're all phukked up, it just depends on what side you're on that determines where you're going to shoot your arrows. That's what I've come to believe. It doesn't ultimately matter who's in the White House. There exists in the each of the four designees D mentioned deceit and greed and corruption and hypocrisy. ALL of them. Folks thinking there are real and lasting solutions via politics are deluded and letting themselves in for chronic disappointment, especially in this day and age.

Just some thoughts. Probably plenty of deficiencies in my logic and presentation but I'm not a well educated man. It's obvious at times reading on this particular board how many of you are highly intelligent, well-read and educated. Much of what gets written here goes way over my head. But I'm curious in some respects. Plus lacrosse season is still a little over two months away.
I've generally agreed with the proposition that one party or another, one person or another, in control for 4 or 8 years of the White House or leading the Senate or House for some period is unlikely to make a big difference to most of our lives, unless there's a particular policy or decision that directly impacts, like sending your kid to war. Otherwise, the ebb and flow of control tends to even out, to "muddle through".

But while you and many others feel that politicians are ALL (whatever pejorative), I don't expect perfection in our political process. It's messy, it's frustrating, people are imperfect, but that's the nature of constitutional democracy, IMO the most effective system of governance ever devised.

So, though I thought electing Bill Clinton would be a terrible message to send to the populace, especially young people, about integrity, it was not a world threatening cost. Smart guy who governed by consensus and persuasion. And though I voted for McCain and Romney, I wasn't upset about Obama winning the WH. Again, smart guy who governed by consensus and persuasion.

But I felt in 2015 and '16 that Trump could be terribly damaging to the country, a terrible message about personal morality, a 'leader' who inspired the worst impulses within a large part of the population vulnerable to such appeals. No way I'd vote for him. (though I didn't like or vote for the alternative in '16...in heavily blue state didn't matter).

Guys like Salty said not to worry, that he'd be surrounded by people who would put guard rails up that would minimize the damage. And I'll readily admit that he was half right. On the one hand, a whole lot of people who surrounded him proved to be corrupt, often stupidly corrupt. No Administration has had so many people at high levels turnover in some sort of scandal or disgrace. Crazy high numbers. On the other hand, a whole bunch of folks stood up when push came to shove, though it was way, way too close a call.

My concern now is that Trump and his deepest MAGA supporters have learned that "loyalty" to the Leader is the highest priority and that those "guard rails" will be eliminated from the outset. That's what they are promising, out loud and clear.

As to your list of positives and negatives, agreed on the negatives. I could list more, but certainly agree with those.

On Israel, I'm not sure he did anything other than support Netanyahu and his strategy of eliminating the 2 state proposition, supporting the ghettoization of Palestinians, and the aggressive encroachment of Palestinian lands through far right wing settlements. I thought all that was a tragic mistake being made by Israel, though my sentiments were certainly with the peaceful Israelis who wanted to build the most successful and safe state possible for themselves. Moving the embassy was a signal of approval of the Netanyahu policy of eliminating hope of a two state answer. It served no other purpose.

"straight shooter"?? I see this quite differently. It wasn't simply "casual diarrhea of the mouth", it was the rampant, knowing lies, often intended to excite and inspire the worst instincts among others or to protect himself, harm "enemies". He began with birtherism...Just a constant disregard for truth followed. And appeals to bigotry...so, I don't see that as "straight shooter". Calculated lies aren't "straight".

Border wall paid for by Mexico? Because of the rapists coming over?
Again, not only were his promises enormously exaggerated (LIES), they were really only about bigotry, not credible solutions to a very real problem. Should some wall be built where helpful? sure. And especially technology and manpower, etc. Always agreed with that, but not remotely sufficient to actually deal with the challenge of uncontrolled, undocumented immigration, nor even smuggling etc though better for that problem (which I care more about).

In my lifetime, various Presidents have made tragic, even catastrophic mistakes. Significant impact on many people, though from my position of relative access to privilege and some good luck in timing, not directly negative personally. But I don't think that the danger that Trump represents is in the same league.
“ not credible solutions to a very real problem. Should some wall be built where helpful? sure. And especially technology and manpower, etc.”

I presume you are speaking of “illegal” immigration here. I emphasize illegal because of the complication of asylum.

Perhaps we could re-label it as “hard to regulate” effectively” migration.

So, what solutions are on the table? A physical barrier only addresses terrestrial border crossing. How about the very common, but largely unremarked upon visa “overstays?”

Besides those mechanical issues, how about, shall we say, the “human capital” angle? Given our slavish adherence to a growth economy -baked in by large debt and requisite service of same, we need more workers. Or are you banking on some Futuyama-esque post-history utopia where AI has reduced need for human labor?

In either case, what do you propose for detection and processing of violators of migrant policy? In the event of large spikes, edge-cases, if you will, what then?

If you countenance a wall, would a virtual autonomous drone wall be acceptable? Would a permanent immobility of the offender be acceptable? Once we start down this path things will get complicated, fast.

What concessions of your personal morals are you willing to trade for a promised solution?
Sound questions.
I think it belongs in the immigration thread, right?

You've highlighted a number of reasons why I don't think a barrier is a sufficient answer to controlling immigration. I do think it (physical barrier, technology, and manpower) can help with smuggling issues, but there are numerous access points, so it's not as simple as just building a 'wall".

For immigration, I quite agree that much of the problem with undocumented immigration is over staying visas, asylum management, all sorts of things just a barrier doesn't address.

I'm in favor of more legal immigration, not less, with asylum being a reasonable component, but with cases adjudicated more swiftly. I think we benefit from immigration that gets documented, where people seek the responsibilities and benefits of citizenship, and don't get stuck in the dark, in the black market economy. I think it should be challenging to achieve that citizenship, taking time and effort, but providing real hope.

Do I think AI will eventually reduce the need for labor? Possibly, but I wouldn't count on it, moreover, that means that the productivity of the hours we do spend working is far higher...and that's ok with me, immigration doesn't change that.
Do you have a time frame for how cases should be adjudicated quickly??? I don't believe any time frame exists currently.
I don't know the law, but I think you're substantively right that there seems to be a reality that cases can take years rather than weeks or months. What I've read is that there's no where near enough judges and advocates and investigators to handle the demand. That's a budgeting issue.

I'd be ok with a multi stage process that validated quickly that there's a legit reason for the asylum request, the people aren't part of a criminal network, etc, and then an extended period of time for them to prove through their behavior that they will be productive members of society. Earn their stay. and then their citizenship. Let people go to work legally, quickly. Basically 'on probation'...
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OuttaNowhereWregget
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Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:27 am .
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Troll.
Typical Lax Dad
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Typical Lax Dad »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:44 amTroll.
Yes
“I wish you would!”
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:33 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:22 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:12 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:17 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:00 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:57 am Disclaimer: This isn't exhaustively researched. Just off the top of my head.


What I liked:

How he treated Israel. Far and away this was my favorite aspect of Trump in the White House.

Straight shooter. He said what he said and didn't mince words. Whether he was right or wrong--he wasn't afraid to say what he thought.

Following through with his campaign promise of building a wall on the border. (Obviously he didn't finish it but, at least he started it.)



What I disliked:

The casual/imprudent, unwise (stupid) way he handled Covid.

His diarrhea of the mouth via Twitter

Condoning the Jew-hating racists at Charlottesville by not ripping and condemning them when given the opportunity.

His embarrassing performance during the first debate with Biden.



With all that said, when I look back on my 60 plus years on this earth, my growing conviction is that it doesn't really matter who's in the White House. My life hasn't really been affected much regardless of who the president was. I'm just a (barely) high school educated blue-collar Beantown scrub. I have always been able to buy food, have a relatively comfortable place to live, go where I want, do what I want, etc. Being compelled to buy health insurance affected my life a little but not too much. Jimmy Carter's talk of the Draft gave me mild anguish for a while. But apart from those two things, I can't think of anything that any administration has done to really truly affect my lower/middle class blue-collar life.

DMac was so right on when he wrote this yesterday: Ds, Rs, libs, conservatives, they're all phukked up, it just depends on what side you're on that determines where you're going to shoot your arrows. That's what I've come to believe. It doesn't ultimately matter who's in the White House. There exists in the each of the four designees D mentioned deceit and greed and corruption and hypocrisy. ALL of them. Folks thinking there are real and lasting solutions via politics are deluded and letting themselves in for chronic disappointment, especially in this day and age.

Just some thoughts. Probably plenty of deficiencies in my logic and presentation but I'm not a well educated man. It's obvious at times reading on this particular board how many of you are highly intelligent, well-read and educated. Much of what gets written here goes way over my head. But I'm curious in some respects. Plus lacrosse season is still a little over two months away.
I've generally agreed with the proposition that one party or another, one person or another, in control for 4 or 8 years of the White House or leading the Senate or House for some period is unlikely to make a big difference to most of our lives, unless there's a particular policy or decision that directly impacts, like sending your kid to war. Otherwise, the ebb and flow of control tends to even out, to "muddle through".

But while you and many others feel that politicians are ALL (whatever pejorative), I don't expect perfection in our political process. It's messy, it's frustrating, people are imperfect, but that's the nature of constitutional democracy, IMO the most effective system of governance ever devised.

So, though I thought electing Bill Clinton would be a terrible message to send to the populace, especially young people, about integrity, it was not a world threatening cost. Smart guy who governed by consensus and persuasion. And though I voted for McCain and Romney, I wasn't upset about Obama winning the WH. Again, smart guy who governed by consensus and persuasion.

But I felt in 2015 and '16 that Trump could be terribly damaging to the country, a terrible message about personal morality, a 'leader' who inspired the worst impulses within a large part of the population vulnerable to such appeals. No way I'd vote for him. (though I didn't like or vote for the alternative in '16...in heavily blue state didn't matter).

Guys like Salty said not to worry, that he'd be surrounded by people who would put guard rails up that would minimize the damage. And I'll readily admit that he was half right. On the one hand, a whole lot of people who surrounded him proved to be corrupt, often stupidly corrupt. No Administration has had so many people at high levels turnover in some sort of scandal or disgrace. Crazy high numbers. On the other hand, a whole bunch of folks stood up when push came to shove, though it was way, way too close a call.

My concern now is that Trump and his deepest MAGA supporters have learned that "loyalty" to the Leader is the highest priority and that those "guard rails" will be eliminated from the outset. That's what they are promising, out loud and clear.

As to your list of positives and negatives, agreed on the negatives. I could list more, but certainly agree with those.

On Israel, I'm not sure he did anything other than support Netanyahu and his strategy of eliminating the 2 state proposition, supporting the ghettoization of Palestinians, and the aggressive encroachment of Palestinian lands through far right wing settlements. I thought all that was a tragic mistake being made by Israel, though my sentiments were certainly with the peaceful Israelis who wanted to build the most successful and safe state possible for themselves. Moving the embassy was a signal of approval of the Netanyahu policy of eliminating hope of a two state answer. It served no other purpose.

"straight shooter"?? I see this quite differently. It wasn't simply "casual diarrhea of the mouth", it was the rampant, knowing lies, often intended to excite and inspire the worst instincts among others or to protect himself, harm "enemies". He began with birtherism...Just a constant disregard for truth followed. And appeals to bigotry...so, I don't see that as "straight shooter". Calculated lies aren't "straight".

Border wall paid for by Mexico? Because of the rapists coming over?
Again, not only were his promises enormously exaggerated (LIES), they were really only about bigotry, not credible solutions to a very real problem. Should some wall be built where helpful? sure. And especially technology and manpower, etc. Always agreed with that, but not remotely sufficient to actually deal with the challenge of uncontrolled, undocumented immigration, nor even smuggling etc though better for that problem (which I care more about).

In my lifetime, various Presidents have made tragic, even catastrophic mistakes. Significant impact on many people, though from my position of relative access to privilege and some good luck in timing, not directly negative personally. But I don't think that the danger that Trump represents is in the same league.
“ not credible solutions to a very real problem. Should some wall be built where helpful? sure. And especially technology and manpower, etc.”

I presume you are speaking of “illegal” immigration here. I emphasize illegal because of the complication of asylum.

Perhaps we could re-label it as “hard to regulate” effectively” migration.

So, what solutions are on the table? A physical barrier only addresses terrestrial border crossing. How about the very common, but largely unremarked upon visa “overstays?”

Besides those mechanical issues, how about, shall we say, the “human capital” angle? Given our slavish adherence to a growth economy -baked in by large debt and requisite service of same, we need more workers. Or are you banking on some Futuyama-esque post-history utopia where AI has reduced need for human labor?

In either case, what do you propose for detection and processing of violators of migrant policy? In the event of large spikes, edge-cases, if you will, what then?

If you countenance a wall, would a virtual autonomous drone wall be acceptable? Would a permanent immobility of the offender be acceptable? Once we start down this path things will get complicated, fast.

What concessions of your personal morals are you willing to trade for a promised solution?
Sound questions.
I think it belongs in the immigration thread, right?

You've highlighted a number of reasons why I don't think a barrier is a sufficient answer to controlling immigration. I do think it (physical barrier, technology, and manpower) can help with smuggling issues, but there are numerous access points, so it's not as simple as just building a 'wall".

For immigration, I quite agree that much of the problem with undocumented immigration is over staying visas, asylum management, all sorts of things just a barrier doesn't address.

I'm in favor of more legal immigration, not less, with asylum being a reasonable component, but with cases adjudicated more swiftly. I think we benefit from immigration that gets documented, where people seek the responsibilities and benefits of citizenship, and don't get stuck in the dark, in the black market economy. I think it should be challenging to achieve that citizenship, taking time and effort, but providing real hope.

Do I think AI will eventually reduce the need for labor? Possibly, but I wouldn't count on it, moreover, that means that the productivity of the hours we do spend working is far higher...and that's ok with me, immigration doesn't change that.
Do you have a time frame for how cases should be adjudicated quickly??? I don't believe any time frame exists currently.
I don't know the law, but I think you're substantively right that there seems to be a reality that cases can take years rather than weeks or months. What I've read is that there's no where near enough judges and advocates and investigators to handle the demand. That's a budgeting issue.

I'd be ok with a multi stage process that validated quickly that there's a legit reason for the asylum request, the people aren't part of a criminal network, etc, and then an extended period of time for them to prove through their behavior that they will be productive members of society. Earn their stay. and then their citizenship. Let people go to work legally, quickly. Basically 'on probation'...
There’s also a massive backlog in courts from years of kicking out dates for covid.

I had this suspense license issue. accident where I was hit but apparently some rural town has this super speeder rule, I had a ticket heading to Savannah and promptly paid the base fine but literally never received notice of this super speeder add on for being 15+ (I was doing like 88 in a 70 in the middle of nowhere which is all of Georgia on Rte 16 from Macon to Savannah effectively). It was deal at the accident as in theory my license was suspended but I couldn’t get the courts to clear it for over two years. Ended up giving $5k to a former DA in private practice who can negotiate deals from his window into the courthouse type to “break the backlog for me”.

So minor thing but I agains the queue built up throughout the country when I had to take > 2yrs and basically bribe the system by hiring a defense attorney in bed with the system.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by Farfromgeneva »

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:01 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:48 am Do you want to fight him bc it got real aggressive real fast?

And did you really create a thread about yourself? That’s some stellar work. If so I can see the logic in using a Brad Pitt gif.
I have no interest in fighting him, or anyone else for that matter.

As I get older I appreciate getting along with folks much more than fighting with them, though it doesn't always work out that way.

I didn't create a topic about myself so much as for myself due to (legitimate) complaints of my bountiful postings. However--All are welcome to post, participate, congregate and interact here.

viewtopic.php?f=129&t=3714
Got it thanks. One day I’ll be in the women’s threads when my daughter is older as she is talking about year round Lax which I ain’t having, stuffed her in BB this winter.

So just a dog with a bone on this then?
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by Farfromgeneva »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:12 am
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:17 pm
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:00 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:57 am Disclaimer: This isn't exhaustively researched. Just off the top of my head.


What I liked:

How he treated Israel. Far and away this was my favorite aspect of Trump in the White House.

Straight shooter. He said what he said and didn't mince words. Whether he was right or wrong--he wasn't afraid to say what he thought.

Following through with his campaign promise of building a wall on the border. (Obviously he didn't finish it but, at least he started it.)



What I disliked:

The casual/imprudent, unwise (stupid) way he handled Covid.

His diarrhea of the mouth via Twitter

Condoning the Jew-hating racists at Charlottesville by not ripping and condemning them when given the opportunity.

His embarrassing performance during the first debate with Biden.



With all that said, when I look back on my 60 plus years on this earth, my growing conviction is that it doesn't really matter who's in the White House. My life hasn't really been affected much regardless of who the president was. I'm just a (barely) high school educated blue-collar Beantown scrub. I have always been able to buy food, have a relatively comfortable place to live, go where I want, do what I want, etc. Being compelled to buy health insurance affected my life a little but not too much. Jimmy Carter's talk of the Draft gave me mild anguish for a while. But apart from those two things, I can't think of anything that any administration has done to really truly affect my lower/middle class blue-collar life.

DMac was so right on when he wrote this yesterday: Ds, Rs, libs, conservatives, they're all phukked up, it just depends on what side you're on that determines where you're going to shoot your arrows. That's what I've come to believe. It doesn't ultimately matter who's in the White House. There exists in the each of the four designees D mentioned deceit and greed and corruption and hypocrisy. ALL of them. Folks thinking there are real and lasting solutions via politics are deluded and letting themselves in for chronic disappointment, especially in this day and age.

Just some thoughts. Probably plenty of deficiencies in my logic and presentation but I'm not a well educated man. It's obvious at times reading on this particular board how many of you are highly intelligent, well-read and educated. Much of what gets written here goes way over my head. But I'm curious in some respects. Plus lacrosse season is still a little over two months away.
I've generally agreed with the proposition that one party or another, one person or another, in control for 4 or 8 years of the White House or leading the Senate or House for some period is unlikely to make a big difference to most of our lives, unless there's a particular policy or decision that directly impacts, like sending your kid to war. Otherwise, the ebb and flow of control tends to even out, to "muddle through".

But while you and many others feel that politicians are ALL (whatever pejorative), I don't expect perfection in our political process. It's messy, it's frustrating, people are imperfect, but that's the nature of constitutional democracy, IMO the most effective system of governance ever devised.

So, though I thought electing Bill Clinton would be a terrible message to send to the populace, especially young people, about integrity, it was not a world threatening cost. Smart guy who governed by consensus and persuasion. And though I voted for McCain and Romney, I wasn't upset about Obama winning the WH. Again, smart guy who governed by consensus and persuasion.

But I felt in 2015 and '16 that Trump could be terribly damaging to the country, a terrible message about personal morality, a 'leader' who inspired the worst impulses within a large part of the population vulnerable to such appeals. No way I'd vote for him. (though I didn't like or vote for the alternative in '16...in heavily blue state didn't matter).

Guys like Salty said not to worry, that he'd be surrounded by people who would put guard rails up that would minimize the damage. And I'll readily admit that he was half right. On the one hand, a whole lot of people who surrounded him proved to be corrupt, often stupidly corrupt. No Administration has had so many people at high levels turnover in some sort of scandal or disgrace. Crazy high numbers. On the other hand, a whole bunch of folks stood up when push came to shove, though it was way, way too close a call.

My concern now is that Trump and his deepest MAGA supporters have learned that "loyalty" to the Leader is the highest priority and that those "guard rails" will be eliminated from the outset. That's what they are promising, out loud and clear.

As to your list of positives and negatives, agreed on the negatives. I could list more, but certainly agree with those.

On Israel, I'm not sure he did anything other than support Netanyahu and his strategy of eliminating the 2 state proposition, supporting the ghettoization of Palestinians, and the aggressive encroachment of Palestinian lands through far right wing settlements. I thought all that was a tragic mistake being made by Israel, though my sentiments were certainly with the peaceful Israelis who wanted to build the most successful and safe state possible for themselves. Moving the embassy was a signal of approval of the Netanyahu policy of eliminating hope of a two state answer. It served no other purpose.

"straight shooter"?? I see this quite differently. It wasn't simply "casual diarrhea of the mouth", it was the rampant, knowing lies, often intended to excite and inspire the worst instincts among others or to protect himself, harm "enemies". He began with birtherism...Just a constant disregard for truth followed. And appeals to bigotry...so, I don't see that as "straight shooter". Calculated lies aren't "straight".

Border wall paid for by Mexico? Because of the rapists coming over?
Again, not only were his promises enormously exaggerated (LIES), they were really only about bigotry, not credible solutions to a very real problem. Should some wall be built where helpful? sure. And especially technology and manpower, etc. Always agreed with that, but not remotely sufficient to actually deal with the challenge of uncontrolled, undocumented immigration, nor even smuggling etc though better for that problem (which I care more about).

In my lifetime, various Presidents have made tragic, even catastrophic mistakes. Significant impact on many people, though from my position of relative access to privilege and some good luck in timing, not directly negative personally. But I don't think that the danger that Trump represents is in the same league.
“ not credible solutions to a very real problem. Should some wall be built where helpful? sure. And especially technology and manpower, etc.”

I presume you are speaking of “illegal” immigration here. I emphasize illegal because of the complication of asylum.

Perhaps we could re-label it as “hard to regulate” effectively” migration.

So, what solutions are on the table? A physical barrier only addresses terrestrial border crossing. How about the very common, but largely unremarked upon visa “overstays?”

Besides those mechanical issues, how about, shall we say, the “human capital” angle? Given our slavish adherence to a growth economy -baked in by large debt and requisite service of same, we need more workers. Or are you banking on some Futuyama-esque post-history utopia where AI has reduced need for human labor?

In either case, what do you propose for detection and processing of violators of migrant policy? In the event of large spikes, edge-cases, if you will, what then?

If you countenance a wall, would a virtual autonomous drone wall be acceptable? Would a permanent immobility of the offender be acceptable? Once we start down this path things will get complicated, fast.

What concessions of your personal morals are you willing to trade for a promised solution?
Sound questions.
I think it belongs in the immigration thread, right?

You've highlighted a number of reasons why I don't think a barrier is a sufficient answer to controlling immigration. I do think it (physical barrier, technology, and manpower) can help with smuggling issues, but there are numerous access points, so it's not as simple as just building a 'wall".

For immigration, I quite agree that much of the problem with undocumented immigration is over staying visas, asylum management, all sorts of things just a barrier doesn't address.

I'm in favor of more legal immigration, not less, with asylum being a reasonable component, but with cases adjudicated more swiftly. I think we benefit from immigration that gets documented, where people seek the responsibilities and benefits of citizenship, and don't get stuck in the dark, in the black market economy. I think it should be challenging to achieve that citizenship, taking time and effort, but providing real hope.

Do I think AI will eventually reduce the need for labor? Possibly, but I wouldn't count on it, moreover, that means that the productivity of the hours we do spend working is far higher...and that's ok with me, immigration doesn't change that.
Or we need a Paul Proteus to start a Revolution.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
User avatar
OuttaNowhereWregget
Posts: 7085
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2021 4:39 am

Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:25 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:01 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:48 am Do you want to fight him bc it got real aggressive real fast?

And did you really create a thread about yourself? That’s some stellar work. If so I can see the logic in using a Brad Pitt gif.
I have no interest in fighting him, or anyone else for that matter.

As I get older I appreciate getting along with folks much more than fighting with them, though it doesn't always work out that way.

I didn't create a topic about myself so much as for myself due to (legitimate) complaints of my bountiful postings. However--All are welcome to post, participate, congregate and interact here.

viewtopic.php?f=129&t=3714
Got it thanks. One day I’ll be in the women’s threads when my daughter is older as she is talking about year round Lax which I ain’t having, stuffed her in BB this winter.

So just a dog with a bone on this then?
I'm not sure what you mean about a dog with a bone. I'm admittedly not too well-read in addition to being slow on the uptake.
Farfromgeneva
Posts: 23841
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am

Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by Farfromgeneva »

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:43 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:25 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:01 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:48 am Do you want to fight him bc it got real aggressive real fast?

And did you really create a thread about yourself? That’s some stellar work. If so I can see the logic in using a Brad Pitt gif.
I have no interest in fighting him, or anyone else for that matter.

As I get older I appreciate getting along with folks much more than fighting with them, though it doesn't always work out that way.

I didn't create a topic about myself so much as for myself due to (legitimate) complaints of my bountiful postings. However--All are welcome to post, participate, congregate and interact here.

viewtopic.php?f=129&t=3714
Got it thanks. One day I’ll be in the women’s threads when my daughter is older as she is talking about year round Lax which I ain’t having, stuffed her in BB this winter.

So just a dog with a bone on this then?
I'm not sure what you mean about a dog with a bone. I'm admittedly not too well-read in addition to being slow on the uptake.
Never mind I’m not seeing what you are but seemed like you aren’t letting things go. That’s one of my blocks in the game. Not my problem though.
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I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

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OuttaNowhereWregget
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Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:35 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:43 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:25 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:01 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:48 am Do you want to fight him bc it got real aggressive real fast?

And did you really create a thread about yourself? That’s some stellar work. If so I can see the logic in using a Brad Pitt gif.
I have no interest in fighting him, or anyone else for that matter.

As I get older I appreciate getting along with folks much more than fighting with them, though it doesn't always work out that way.

I didn't create a topic about myself so much as for myself due to (legitimate) complaints of my bountiful postings. However--All are welcome to post, participate, congregate and interact here.

viewtopic.php?f=129&t=3714
Got it thanks. One day I’ll be in the women’s threads when my daughter is older as she is talking about year round Lax which I ain’t having, stuffed her in BB this winter.

So just a dog with a bone on this then?
I'm not sure what you mean about a dog with a bone. I'm admittedly not too well-read in addition to being slow on the uptake.
Never mind I’m not seeing what you are but seemed like you aren’t letting things go. That’s one of my blocks in the game. Not my problem though.
What things am I not letting go? What do you mean by blocks in the game? I'm happy to try to answer your questions but I honestly don't understand what it is you are asking me specifically. Again--happy to try to answer.
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Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by Farfromgeneva »

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:49 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 7:35 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 1:43 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 12:25 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:01 am
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 6:48 am Do you want to fight him bc it got real aggressive real fast?

And did you really create a thread about yourself? That’s some stellar work. If so I can see the logic in using a Brad Pitt gif.
I have no interest in fighting him, or anyone else for that matter.

As I get older I appreciate getting along with folks much more than fighting with them, though it doesn't always work out that way.

I didn't create a topic about myself so much as for myself due to (legitimate) complaints of my bountiful postings. However--All are welcome to post, participate, congregate and interact here.

viewtopic.php?f=129&t=3714
Got it thanks. One day I’ll be in the women’s threads when my daughter is older as she is talking about year round Lax which I ain’t having, stuffed her in BB this winter.

So just a dog with a bone on this then?
I'm not sure what you mean about a dog with a bone. I'm admittedly not too well-read in addition to being slow on the uptake.
Never mind I’m not seeing what you are but seemed like you aren’t letting things go. That’s one of my blocks in the game. Not my problem though.
What things am I not letting go? What do you mean by blocks in the game? I'm happy to try to answer your questions but I honestly don't understand what it is you are asking me specifically. Again--happy to try to answer.
Well you both made your positions clear and you want to keep getting after it w MD. But you don’t want to fight either. That’s what a dog with a bone would do. They may not be savages in their nature but when they don’t want to let something go they get nasty.

My “block” is being pugilistic. And then I own the whole right side of the monopoly board on being a thirsty degenerate. As in “yo this is Crips territory you be slinging that rock in!”

But honestly doesn’t matter I got the clarity I was looking for. You answered enough.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
DMac
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by DMac »

Got hooked on a Dateline episode, Jim Jones, Jonestown, 918 dead.
I can not fathom how one's instincts so fail them so as to be drawn in
and influenced by another human with the aura of a Jim Jones. That's
a real flaw in one's defense preservation mechanism.
I feel the same about Trump, this self-aggrandizing narcissist is a bad
(and dangerous) person, you can smell it on him.
Leading candidate for the GOP. W*T*F???
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by PizzaSnake »

DMac wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:00 pm Got hooked on a Dateline episode, Jim Jones, Jonestown, 918 dead.
I can not fathom how one's instincts so fail them so as to be drawn in
and influenced by another human with the aura of a Jim Jones. That's
a real flaw in one's defense preservation mechanism.
I feel the same about Trump, this self-aggrandizing narcissist is a bad
(and dangerous) person, you can smell it on him.
Leading candidate for the GOP. W*T*F???
Remember that like yesterday. I had retrieved the paper before anyone else woke up, opened it up, and was confronted with that. I had read it all before anyone noticed. Disorienting. Schemata-shifting.

I was 12.

I am with you re Trump. I’ve got a bad feeling about him and his adherents.
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by Farfromgeneva »

PizzaSnake wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:47 pm
DMac wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 10:00 pm Got hooked on a Dateline episode, Jim Jones, Jonestown, 918 dead.
I can not fathom how one's instincts so fail them so as to be drawn in
and influenced by another human with the aura of a Jim Jones. That's
a real flaw in one's defense preservation mechanism.
I feel the same about Trump, this self-aggrandizing narcissist is a bad
(and dangerous) person, you can smell it on him.
Leading candidate for the GOP. W*T*F???
Remember that like yesterday. I had retrieved the paper before anyone else woke up, opened it up, and was confronted with that. I had read it all before anyone noticed. Disorienting. Schemata-shifting.

I was 12.

I am with you re Trump. I’ve got a bad feeling about him and his adherents.
Ha, there was like 4-5 people who indignantly took offense when I used to make reference to Jones and the koolaid regarding followed of Trump. I was never wrong. It was just a heuristic to try and claim the moral ground except it was so transparently stupid (one I’ve referred to as living in bad faith around here 95% of the time).

The defenders and gas lighters are the worst though because they should know better. The crazed cage animals are beaten down and forgotten only used as proofs for those with cheddar and power to accumulate more which is what makes the finger pointing at the Dems/Libs so odious. But I’m curious to check out what feudalism looks like with my own eyes so let it rip.
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

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Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:31 pm Well you both made your positions clear and you want to keep getting after it w MD. But you don’t want to fight either. That’s what a dog with a bone would do. They may not be savages in their nature but when they don’t want to let something go they get nasty.

My “block” is being pugilistic. And then I own the whole right side of the monopoly board on being a thirsty degenerate. As in “yo this is Crips territory you be slinging that rock in!”

But honestly doesn’t matter I got the clarity I was looking for. You answered enough.
“Oh, I see!” said the blind man as he read the newspaper.

Thanks for explaining. You use euphemisms/cliches the way I use gif’s. They do convey a lot with a lot fewer words. (I can hear Rod Stewart belting it out now--Every picture tells a story, don't it WOO!) And thanks for saying I made my position clear. I do try.

Where I differ with you is the idea that I want to keep getting after it with him. I want nothing more to do with him. He smears others with hearsay and conjecture, and then is too proud to apologize when called out, but rather digs his heels in with empty justifications. 

Interesting that he chose to produce not even one post to prove his sleazy insinuation. "Girls with sticks" is how he typified the subject of my supposed fawning. How's that for dismissively belittling women? An entire group of female student athletes playing the fantastic, centuries-old game of lacrosse are merely "girls with sticks"--but I'm the one who's inappropriate in my commentary regarding women's lacrosse? Please.

DMac coming to my defense was/is significant. He wasn’t exaggerating to say (and I'm paraphrasing) that he and I have had our knock-down-drag-outs. Plus D is a regular at WD1—so he knows what kind of content I produce, whereas The All Knowing One by his own admission rarely visits. So for D to back me up in that instance holds a lot more weight than what TAKO alleged.

All to say, I have my opinions on Israel, Trump (among many other opinions on many other topics) that I won’t let go--sure. But him?—he’s been let go at this address the way Hal loosed the tethered spaceman—as these recent dustups aren’t the only times he’s presumptuously wagged his holier-than-thou, more-educated/intelligent-than-thou, misinformed finger in my direction. In addition to that, (and in the interest of full disclosure)--I find him mind-numbingly boring to read. Pedantic to a fare-thee-well. Fits squarely into the category of those whom C&S described as using twenty paragraphs where two would suffice. 

So, unless an apology is forthcoming, I'm done engaging with TAKO. Hence the gif’s. Hence the response opt outs.

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Re: What I liked/disliked about Trump's time in office

Post by PizzaSnake »

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 4:31 pm
Farfromgeneva wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 9:31 pm Well you both made your positions clear and you want to keep getting after it w MD. But you don’t want to fight either. That’s what a dog with a bone would do. They may not be savages in their nature but when they don’t want to let something go they get nasty.

My “block” is being pugilistic. And then I own the whole right side of the monopoly board on being a thirsty degenerate. As in “yo this is Crips territory you be slinging that rock in!”

But honestly doesn’t matter I got the clarity I was looking for. You answered enough.
“Oh, I see!” said the blind man as he read the newspaper.

Thanks for explaining. You use euphemisms/cliches the way I use gif’s. They do convey a lot with a lot fewer words. (I can hear Rod Stewart belting it out now--Every picture tells a story, don't it WOO!) And thanks for saying I made my position clear. I do try.

Where I differ with you is the idea that I want to keep getting after it with him. I want nothing more to do with him. He smears others with hearsay and conjecture, and then is too proud to apologize when called out, but rather digs his heels in with empty justifications. 

Interesting that he chose to produce not even one post to prove his sleazy insinuation. "Girls with sticks" is how he typified the subject of my supposed fawning. How's that for dismissively belittling women? An entire group of female student athletes playing the fantastic, centuries-old game of lacrosse are merely "girls with sticks"--but I'm the one who's inappropriate in my commentary regarding women's lacrosse? Please.

DMac coming to my defense was/is significant. He wasn’t exaggerating to say (and I'm paraphrasing) that he and I have had our knock-down-drag-outs. Plus D is a regular at WD1—so he knows what kind of content I produce, whereas The All Knowing One by his own admission rarely visits. So for D to back me up in that instance holds a lot more weight than what TAKO alleged.

All to say, I have my opinions on Israel, Trump (among many other opinions on many other topics) that I won’t let go--sure. But him?—he’s been let go at this address the way Hal loosed the tethered spaceman—as these recent dustups aren’t the only times he’s presumptuously wagged his holier-than-thou, more-educated/intelligent-than-thou, misinformed finger in my direction. In addition to that, (and in the interest of full disclosure)--I find him mind-numbingly boring to read. Pedantic to a fare-thee-well. Fits squarely into the category of those whom C&S described as using twenty paragraphs where two would suffice. 

So, unless an apology is forthcoming, I'm done engaging with TAKO. Hence the gif’s. Hence the response opt outs.

Image
^Backpfeifengesicht. ^
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

Yup, dog with a bone...that's what "letting go" looks like for outta. :roll:

Yes, I actually have a mother, sister, two nieces who played the sport. Many, many friends who played women's lax, many, many daughters of friends who played or play. Many at a very high level. So, I actually have the proverbial "dog in the hunt" of women's lax.

Outta, you told us you have no family who played, none on the way up.
No friends who played, no daughters of friends who play or played.
Just found the game on TV and became enamored of the sport...according to you.

I have no issue with you being a fan of the sport, but let's not pretend that I have no interest in the game.

and yes, I find your 'passion' for the gals who play to be "fawning, whether for the individual players or the teams. The hyperbole gets pretty over the top, IMO. I'm aware that some of the other posters, who I understand to have women in their lives who play or played, have more sharp critiques of your 'passion' than I have ever expressed, but that's between you and them.

I DO pay much more attention to the men's side, as my father, son and I all played at a high level, some decorations along the way, and I know the game much better than I do the women's and I follow the teams more closely based on rooting interests and friends' kids who play. But I certainly don't 'know it all' about the sport, nor pretty much any other topic, nor have I ever claimed such...I participate in the forum in order to learn from others, share perspectives, test opinions, etc. That includes the politics threads.

And I see no benefit in being uncivil. But I do see benefit in actual engagement on the topic thread rather than dropping in to insult others. Which you did on here.

But hide from the discussion on topic if you want. Up to you.
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Re: Orange Duce

Post by old salt »

Wow. I never thought I'd see something this unhinged published in the Wash Post. I'll post the entire remarkable piece, in the next post, for the benefit of non-subscribers. It's really long, so if you want to comment, plz quote this post & not the article post, or edit out what you're not specifically commenting on, or this thread will become so long it's unreadable.

Robert Kagan, the author, is the scion of one of the founding NeoCon families, He is married to Victoria Nuland, the currently serving Deputy Secy of State, who helped foment the Maidan Revolution of 2014 & still/again manages the Ukraine portfolio.

Trump's opponents are terrified that if elected, he will turn the powers of govt that have been used against him, upon them.
It's a call to arms to do whatever it takes to stop him, no matter what it takes.
It became laughable when he said that Barr, Kelly & Milley will be in danger & Mike Flynn would be confirmed as CJCS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ert-kagan/
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The TDS Manifesto

Post by old salt »

^^^ from the preceding post. Please don't quote this entire post :
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ert-kagan/

Opinion A Trump dictatorship is increasingly inevitable. We should stop pretending.

By Robert Kagan, Editor at large, November 30, 2023

Let’s stop the wishful thinking and face the stark reality: There is a clear path to dictatorship in the United States, and it is getting shorter every day. In 13 weeks, Donald Trump will have locked up the Republican nomination. In the RealClearPolitics poll average (for the period from Nov. 9 to 20), Trump leads his nearest competitor by 47 points and leads the rest of the field combined by 27 points. The idea that he is unelectable in the general election is nonsense — he is tied or ahead of President Biden in all the latest polls — stripping other Republican challengers of their own stated reasons for existence. The fact that many Americans might prefer other candidates, much ballyhooed by such political sages as Karl Rove, will soon become irrelevant when millions of Republican voters turn out to choose the person whom no one allegedly wants.

For many months now, we have been living in a world of self-delusion, rich with imagined possibilities. Maybe it will be Ron DeSantis, or maybe Nikki Haley. Maybe the myriad indictments of Trump will doom him with Republican suburbanites. Such hopeful speculation has allowed us to drift along passively, conducting business as usual, taking no dramatic action to change course, in the hope and expectation that something will happen. Like people on a riverboat, we have long known there is a waterfall ahead but assume we will somehow find our way to shore before we go over the edge. But now the actions required to get us to shore are looking harder and harder, if not downright impossible.

The magical-thinking phase is ending. Barring some miracle, Trump will soon be the presumptive Republican nominee for president. When that happens, there will be a swift and dramatic shift in the political power dynamic, in his favor. Until now, Republicans and conservatives have enjoyed relative freedom to express anti-Trump sentiments, to speak openly and positively about alternative candidates, to vent criticisms of Trump’s behavior past and present. Donors who find Trump distasteful have been free to spread their money around to help his competitors. Establishment Republicans have made no secret of their hope that Trump will be convicted and thus removed from the equation without their having to take a stand against him.

All this will end once Trump wins Super Tuesday. Votes are the currency of power in our system, and money follows, and by those measures, Trump is about to become far more powerful than he already is. The hour of casting about for alternatives is closing. The next phase is about people falling into line.

In fact, it has already begun. As his nomination becomes inevitable, donors are starting to jump from other candidates to Trump. The recent decision by the Koch political network to endorse GOP hopeful Nikki Haley is scarcely sufficient to change this trajectory. And why not? If Trump is going to be the nominee, it makes sense to sign up early while he is still grateful for defectors. Even anti-Trump donors must ask whether their cause is best served by shunning the man who stands a reasonable chance of being the next president. Will corporate executives endanger the interests of their shareholders just because they or their spouses hate Trump? It’s not surprising that people with hard cash on the line are the first to flip.

The rest of the Republican Party will quickly follow. Rove’s recent exhortation that primary voters choose anyone but Trump is the last such plea you are likely to hear from anyone with a future in the party. Even in a normal campaign, intraparty dissent begins to disappear once the primaries produce a clear winner. Most of the leading candidates have already pledged to support Trump if he is the nominee, even before he has won a single primary vote. Imagine their posture after he runs the table on Super Tuesday. Most of the candidates running against him will sprint toward him, competing for his favor. After Super Tuesday, there will be no surer and shorter path to the presidency for a Republican than to become the loyal running mate of a man who will be 82 in 2028.

Republicans who have tried to navigate the Trump era by mixing appeals to non-Trump voters with repeated professions of loyalty to Trump will end that show. As perilous as it is for Republicans to say a negative word about Trump today, it will be impossible once he has sewn up the nomination. The party will be in full general-election mode, subordinating all to the presidential campaign. What Republican or conservative will be standing up to Trump then? Will the Wall Street Journal editorial page, which has been rather boldly opposing Trump, continue to do so once he is the nominee and it is a binary choice between Trump and Biden? There will be no more infighting, only outfighting; in short, a tsunami of Trump support from all directions. A winner is a winner. And a winner who stands a reasonable chance of wielding all the power there is to wield in the world is going to attract support no matter who they are. That is the nature of power, at any time in any society.

But Trump will not only dominate his party. He will again become the central focus of everyone’s attention. Even today, the news media can scarcely resist following Trump’s every word and action. Once he secures the nomination, he will loom over the country like a colossus, his every word and gesture chronicled endlessly. Even today, the mainstream news media, including The Post and NBC News, is joining forces with Trump’s lawyers to seek televised coverage of his federal criminal trial in D.C. Trump intends to use the trial to boost his candidacy and discredit the American justice system as corrupt — and the media outlets, serving their own interests, will help him do it.

Trump will thus enter the general-election campaign early next year with momentum, backed by growing political and financial resources, and an increasingly unified party. Can the same be said of Biden? Is Biden’s power likely to grow over the coming months? Will his party unify around him? Or will alarm and doubt among Democrats, already high, continue to increase? Even at this point, the president is struggling with double-digit defections among Black Americans and younger voters. Jill Stein and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. have already launched, respectively, third-party and independent campaigns, coming at Biden in the main from the populist left. The decision by Sen. Joe Manchin III (D-W.Va.) not to run for reelection in West Virginia but instead to contemplate a third-party run for the presidency is potentially devastating. The Democratic coalition is likely to remain fractious as the Republicans unify and Trump consolidates his hold.

Biden, as some have pointed out, does not enjoy the usual advantages of incumbency. Trump is effectively also an incumbent, after all. That means Biden is unable to make the usual incumbent’s claim that electing his opponent is a leap into the unknown. Few Republicans regard the Trump presidency as having been either abnormal or unsuccessful. In his first term, the respected “adults” around him not only blocked some of his most dangerous impulses but also kept them hidden from the public. To this day, some of these same officials rarely speak publicly against him. Why should Republican voters have a problem with Trump if those who served him don’t? Regardless of what Trump’s enemies think, this is going to be a battle of two tested and legitimate presidents.

Trump, meanwhile, enjoys the usual advantage of non-incumbency, namely: the lack of any responsibility. Biden must carry the world’s problems like an albatross around his neck, like any incumbent, but most incumbents can at least claim that their opponent is too inexperienced to be entrusted with these crises. Biden cannot. On Trump’s watch, there was no full-scale invasion of Ukraine, no major attack on Israel, no runaway inflation, no disastrous retreat from Afghanistan. It is hard to make the case for Trump’s unfitness to anyone who does not already believe it.

Trump enjoys some unusual advantages for a challenger, moreover. Even Ronald Reagan did not have Fox News and the speaker of the House in his pocket. To the degree there are structural advantages in the coming general election, in short, they are on Trump’s side. And that is before we even get to the problem that Biden can do nothing to solve: his age.

Trump also enjoys another advantage. The national mood less than a year before the election is one of bipartisan disgust with the political system in general. Rarely in American history has democracy’s inherent messiness been more striking. In Weimar Germany, Hitler and other agitators benefited from the squabbling of the democratic parties, right and left, the endless fights over the budget, the logjams in the legislature, the fragile and fractious coalitions. German voters increasingly yearned for someone to cut through it all and get something — anything — done. It didn’t matter who was behind the political paralysis, either, whether the intransigence came from the right or the left.

Today, Republicans might be responsible for Washington’s dysfunction, and they might pay a price for it in downballot races. But Trump benefits from dysfunction because he is the one who offers a simple answer: him. In this election, only one candidate is running on the platform of using unprecedented power to get things done, to hell with the rules. And a growing number of Americans claim to want that, in both parties. Trump is running against the system. Biden is the living embodiment of the system. Advantage: Trump.

Which brings us to Trump’s expanding legal battlefronts. No doubt Trump would have preferred to run for office without spending most of his time fending off efforts to throw him in jail. Yet it is in the courtroom over the coming months that Trump is going to display his unusual power within the American political system.

It is hard to fault those who have taken Trump to court. He certainly committed at least one of the crimes he is charged with; we don’t need a trial to tell us he tried to overturn the 2020 election. Nor can you blame those who have hoped thereby to obstruct his path back to the Oval Office. When a marauder is crashing through your house, you throw everything you can at him — pots, pans, candlesticks — in the hope of slowing him down and tripping him up. But that doesn’t mean it works.

Trump will not be contained by the courts or the rule of law. On the contrary, he is going to use the trials to display his power. That’s why he wants them televised. Trump’s power comes from his following, not from the institutions of American government, and his devoted voters love him precisely because he crosses lines and ignores the old boundaries. They feel empowered by it, and that in turn empowers him. Even before the trials begin, he is toying with the judges, forcing them to try to muzzle him, defying their orders. He is a bit like King Kong testing the chains on his arms, sensing that he can break free whenever he chooses.

And just wait until the votes start pouring in. Will the judges throw a presumptive Republican nominee in jail for contempt of court? Once it becomes clear that they will not, then the power balance within the courtroom, and in the country at large, will shift again to Trump. The likeliest outcome of the trials will be to demonstrate our judicial system’s inability to contain someone like Trump and, incidentally, to reveal its impotence as a check should he become president. Indicting Trump for trying to overthrow the government will prove akin to indicting Caesar for crossing the Rubicon, and just as effective. Like Caesar, Trump wields a clout that transcends the laws and institutions of government, based on the unswerving personal loyalty of his army of followers.

I mention all this only to answer one simple question: Can Trump win the election? The answer, unless something radical and unforeseen happens, is: Of course he can. If that weren’t so, the Democratic Party would not be in a mounting panic about its prospects.

If Trump does win the election, he will immediately become the most powerful person ever to hold that office. Not only will he wield the awesome powers of the American executive — powers that, as conservatives used to complain, have grown over the decades — but he will do so with the fewest constraints of any president, fewer even than in his own first term.

What limits those powers? The most obvious answer is the institutions of justice — all of which Trump, by his very election, will have defied and revealed as impotent. A court system that could not control Trump as a private individual is not going to control him better when he is president of the United States and appointing his own attorney general and all the other top officials at the Justice Department. Think of the power of a man who gets himself elected president despite indictments, courtroom appearances and perhaps even conviction? Would he even obey a directive of the Supreme Court? Or would he instead ask how many armored divisions the chief justice has?

Will a future Congress stop him? Presidents can accomplish a lot these days without congressional approval, as even Barack Obama showed. The one check Congress has on a rogue president, namely, impeachment and conviction, has already proved all but impossible — even when Trump was out of office and wielded modest institutional power over his party.

Another traditional check on a president is the federal bureaucracy, that vast apparatus of career government officials who execute the laws and carry on the operations of government under every president. They are generally in the business of limiting any president’s options. As Harry S. Truman once put it, “Poor Ike. He’ll say ‘do this’ and ‘do that’ and nothing at all will happen.” That was a problem for Trump is his first term, partly because he had no government team of his own to fill the administration. This time, he will. Those who choose to serve in his second administration will not be taking office with the unstated intention of refusing to carry out his wishes. If the Heritage Foundation has its way, and there is no reason to believe it won’t, many of those career bureaucrats will be gone, replaced by people carefully “vetted” to ensure their loyalty to Trump.

What about the desire for reelection, a factor that constrains most presidents? Trump might not want or need a third term, but were he to decide he wanted one, as he has sometimes indicated, would the 22nd Amendment block him any more effectively from being president for life than the Supreme Court, if he refused to be blocked? Why should anyone think that amendment would be more sacrosanct than any other part of the Constitution for a man like Trump, or perhaps more importantly, for his devoted supporters?

A final constraint on presidents has been their own desire for a glittering legacy, with success traditionally measured in terms that roughly equate to the well-being of the country. But is that the way Trump thinks? Yes, Trump might seek a great legacy, but it is strictly his own glory that he craves. As with Napoleon, who spoke of the glory of France but whose narrow ambitions for himself and his family brought France to ruin, Trump’s ambitions, though he speaks of making America great again, clearly begin and end with himself. As for his followers, he doesn’t have to achieve anything to retain their support — his failure to build the wall in his first term in no way damaged his standing with millions of his loyalists. They have never asked anything of him other than that he triumph over the forces they hate in American society. And that, we can be sure, will be Trump’s primary mission as president.

Having answered the question of whether Trump can win, we can now turn to the most urgent question: Will his presidency turn into a dictatorship? The odds are, again, pretty good.

It is worth getting inside Trump’s head a bit and imagining his mood following an election victory. He will have spent the previous year, and more, fighting to stay out of jail, plagued by myriad persecutors and helpless to do what he likes to do best: exact revenge. Think of the fury that will have built up inside him, a fury that, from his point of view, he has worked hard to contain. As he once put it, “I think I’ve been toned down, if you want to know the truth. I could really tone it up.” Indeed he could — and will. We caught a glimpse of his deep thirst for vengeance in his Veterans Day promise to “root out the Communists, Marxists, Fascists, and Radical Left Thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our Country, lie, steal, and cheat on Elections, and will do anything possible, whether legally or illegally, to destroy America, and the American Dream.” Note the equation of himself with “America and the American Dream.” It is he they are trying to destroy, he believes, and as president, he will return the favor.

What will that look like? Trump has already named some of those he intends to go after once he is elected: senior officials from his first term such as retired Gen. John F. Kelly, Gen. Mark A. Milley, former attorney general William P. Barr and others who spoke against him after the 2020 election; officials in the FBI and the CIA who investigated him in the Russia probe; Justice Department officials who refused his demands to overturn the 2020 election; members of the Jan. 6 committee; Democratic opponents including Rep. Adam B. Schiff (Calif.); and Republicans who voted for or publicly supported his impeachment and conviction.

But that’s just the start. After all, Trump will not be the only person seeking revenge. His administration will be filled with people with enemies’ lists of their own, a determined cadre of “vetted” officials who will see it as their sole, presidentially authorized mission to “root out” those in the government who cannot be trusted. Many will simply be fired, but others will be subject to career-destroying investigations. The Trump administration will be filled with people who will not need explicit instruction from Trump, any more than Hitler’s local gauleiters needed instruction. In such circumstances, people “work toward the Führer,” which is to say, they anticipate his desires and seek favor through acts they think will make him happy, thereby enhancing their own influence and power in the process.

Nor will it be difficult to find things to charge opponents with. Our history is unfortunately filled with instances of unfairly targeted officials singled out for being on the wrong side of a particular issue at the wrong time — the State Department’s “China Hands” of the late 1940s, for instance, whose careers were destroyed because they happened to be in positions of influence when the Chinese Communist Revolution occurred. Today, there is the whiff of a new McCarthyism in the air. MAGA Republicans insist that Biden himself is a “communist,” that his election was a “communist takeover” and that his administration is a “communist regime.”

It’s therefore no surprise that Biden has a “pro-Chinese Communist Party (CCP) agenda,” as the powerful chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-Wash.), put it this year, and is deliberately “ceding American leadership and security to China.” Republicans these days routinely charge that their opponents are not just naive or inadequately attentive to China’s rising power but are actual “sympathizers” with Beijing. “Communist China has their President … China Joe,” Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) tweeted on Biden’s Inauguration Day. Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) has called the president “Beijing Biden.” The Republican Senate nominee in New Hampshire last year even called Republican Gov. Chris Sununu a “Chinese Communist Party sympathizer.” We can expect more of this when the war against the “deep state” begins in earnest. According to Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.), there is a whole cabal determined to undermine American security, a “Uniparty” of elites made up of “neoconservatives on the right” and “liberal globalists on the left” who are not true Americans and therefore do not have the true interests of America at heart. Can such “anti-American” behavior be criminalized? It has in the past and can be again.

So, the Trump administration will have many avenues to persecute its enemies, real and perceived. Think of all the laws now on the books that give the federal government enormous power to surveil people for possible links to terrorism, a dangerously flexible term, not to mention all the usual opportunities to investigate people for alleged tax evasion or violation of foreign agent registration laws. The IRS under both parties has occasionally looked at depriving think tanks of their tax-exempt status because they espouse policies that align with the views of the political parties. What will happen to the think-tanker in a second Trump term who argues that the United States should ease pressure on China? Or the government official rash enough to commit such thoughts to official paper? It didn’t take more than that to ruin careers in the 1950s.

And who will stop the improper investigations and prosecutions of Trump’s many enemies? Will Congress? A Republican Congress will be busy conducting its own inquiries, using its powers to subpoena people, accusing them of all kinds of crimes, just as it does now. Will it matter if the charges are groundless? And of course in some cases they will be true, which will lend even greater validity to a wider probe of political enemies.

Will Fox News defend them, or will it instead just amplify the accusations? The American press corps will remain divided as it is today, between those organizations catering to Trump and his audience and those that do not. But in a regime where the ruler has declared the news media to be “enemies of the state,” the press will find itself under significant and constant pressure. Media owners will discover that a hostile and unbridled president can make their lives unpleasant in all sorts of ways.

Indeed, who will stand up for anyone accused in the public arena, besides their lawyers? In a Trump presidency, the courage it will take to stand up for them will be no less than the courage it will take to stand up to Trump himself. How many will risk their own careers to defend others? In a nation congenitally suspicious of government, who will stick up for the rights of former officials who become targets of Trump’s Justice Department? There will be ample precedents for those seeking to justify the persecution. Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus, the Wilson administration shut down newspapers and magazines critical of the war; Franklin D. Roosevelt rounded up Japanese Americans and placed them in camps. We will pay the price for every transgression ever committed against the laws designed to protect individual rights and freedoms.

How will Americans respond to the first signs of a regime of political persecution? Will they rise up in outrage? Don’t count on it. Those who found no reason to oppose Trump in the primaries and no reason to oppose him in the general are unlikely to experience a sudden awakening when some former Trump-adjacent official such as Milley finds himself under investigation for goodness knows what. They will know only that Justice Department prosecutors, the IRS, the FBI and several congressional committees are looking into it. And who is to say that those being hounded are not in fact tax cheaters, or Chinese spies, or perverts, or whatever they might be accused of? Will the great body of Americans even recognize these accusations as persecution and the first stage of shutting down opposition to Trump across the country?

The Trump dictatorship will not be a communist tyranny, where almost everyone feels the oppression and has their lives shaped by it. In conservative, anti-liberal tyrannies, ordinary people face all kinds of limitations on their freedoms, but it is a problem for them only to the degree that they value those freedoms, and many people do not. The fact that this tyranny will depend entirely on the whims of one man will mean that Americans’ rights will be conditional rather than guaranteed. But if most Americans can go about their daily business, they might not care, just as many Russians and Hungarians do not care.

Yes, there will be a large opposition movement centered in the Democratic Party, but exactly how this opposition will stop the persecution is hard to see. Congress and the courts will offer little relief. Democratic politicians, particularly members of the youngest generation, will yell and scream, but if they are not joined by Republicans, it will look like the same old partisanship. If Democrats still control one house of Congress, they will be able to blunt some investigations, but the odds that they will control both houses after 2024 are longer than the odds of a Biden victory. Nor is there sufficient reason to hope that the disordered and dysfunctional opposition to Trump today will suddenly become more unified and effective once Trump takes power. That is not how things work. In evolving dictatorships, the opposition is always weak and divided. That’s what makes dictatorship possible in the first place. Opposition movements rarely get stronger and more unified under the pressures of persecution. Today there is no leader for Democrats to rally behind. It is difficult to imagine that such a leader will emerge once Trump regains power.

But even if the opposition were to become strong and unified, it is not obvious what it would do to protect those facing persecution. The opposition’s ability to wield legitimate, peaceful and legal forms of power will already have been found wanting in this election cycle, when Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans threw every legitimate weapon against Trump and still failed. Will they turn instead to illegitimate, extralegal action? What would that look like?

Americans might take to the streets. In fact, it is likely that many people will engage in protests against the new regime, perhaps even before it has had a chance to prove itself deserving of them. But then what? Even in his first term, Trump and his advisers on more than one occasion discussed invoking the Insurrection Act. No less a defender of American democracy than George H.W. Bush invoked the act to deal with the Los Angeles riots in 1992. It is hard to imagine Trump not invoking it should “the Communists, Marxists, Fascists, and Radical Left Thugs” take to the streets. One suspects he will relish the opportunity.

And who will stop him? His own handpicked military advisers? That seems unlikely. He could make retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff if he wanted, and it is unlikely a Republican Senate would decline to confirm. Does anyone think military leaders will disobey commands from their duly elected, constitutionally authorized, commander in chief? Do we even want the military to have to make that call? There is every reason to believe that active-duty troops and reservists are likely to be disproportionately more sympathetic to a newly reelected President Trump than to the “Radical Left Thugs” supposedly causing mayhem in the streets of their towns and cities. Those who hope to be saved by a U.S. military devoted to the protection of the Constitution are living in a fantasyland.

Resistance could come from the governors of predominantly Democratic states such as California and New York through a form of nullification. States with Democratic governors and statehouses could refuse to recognize the authority of a tyrannical federal government. That is always an option in our federal system. (Should Biden win, some Republican states might engage in nullification.) But not even the bluest states are monolithic, and Democratic governors are likely to find themselves under siege on their home turf if they try to become bastions of resistance to Trump’s tyranny. Republicans and conservatives throughout the nation will be energized by their hero’s triumph. The power shift at the federal level, and the tone of menace and revenge emanating from the White House, will likely embolden all kinds of counter-resistance even in deep-blue states, including violent protests. What resources will the governors have to combat such attacks and maintain order? The state and local police? Will those entities be willing to use force against protesters who will likely enjoy the public support of the president? The Democratic governors might not be eager to find out.

Should Trump be successful in launching a campaign of persecution and the opposition prove powerless to stop it, then the nation will have begun an irreversible descent into dictatorship. With each passing day, it will become harder and more dangerous to stop it by any means, legal or illegal. Try to imagine what it will be like running for office on an opposition ticket in such an environment. In theory, the midterm elections in 2026 might hold hope for a Democratic comeback, but won’t Trump use his considerable powers, both legal and illegal, to prevent that? Trump insists and no doubt believes that the current administration corruptly used the justice system to try to prevent his reelection. Will he not consider himself justified in doing the same once he has all the power? He has, of course, already promised to do exactly that: to use the powers of his office to persecute anyone who dares challenge him.

This is the trajectory we are on now. Is descent into dictatorship inevitable? No. Nothing in history is inevitable. Unforeseen events change trajectories. Readers of this essay will no doubt list all the ways in which it is arguably too pessimistic and doesn’t take sufficient account of this or that alternative possibility. Maybe, despite everything, Trump won’t win. Maybe the coin flip will come up heads and we’ll all be safe. And maybe even if he does win, he won’t do any of the things he says he’s going to do. You may be comforted by this if you choose.

What is certain, however, is that the odds of the United States falling into dictatorship have grown considerably because so many of the obstacles to it have been cleared and only a few are left. If eight years ago it seemed literally inconceivable that a man like Trump could be elected, that obstacle was cleared in 2016. If it then seemed unimaginable that an American president would try to remain in office after losing an election, that obstacle was cleared in 2020. And if no one could believe that Trump, having tried and failed to invalidate the election and stop the counting of electoral college votes, would nevertheless reemerge as the unchallenged leader of the Republican Party and its nominee again in 2024, well, we are about to see that obstacle cleared as well. In just a few years, we have gone from being relatively secure in our democracy to being a few short steps, and a matter of months, away from the possibility of dictatorship.

Are we going to do anything about it? To shift metaphors, if we thought there was a 50 percent chance of an asteroid crashing into North America a year from now, would we be content to hope that it wouldn’t? Or would we be taking every conceivable measure to try to stop it, including many things that might not work but that, given the magnitude of the crisis, must be tried anyway?

Yes, I know that most people don’t think an asteroid is heading toward us and that’s part of the problem. But just as big a problem has been those who do see the risk but for a variety of reasons have not thought it necessary to make any sacrifices to prevent it. At each point along the way, our political leaders, and we as voters, have let opportunities to stop Trump pass on the assumption that he would eventually meet some obstacle he could not overcome. Republicans could have stopped Trump from winning the nomination in 2016, but they didn’t. The voters could have elected Hillary Clinton, but they didn’t. Republican senators could have voted to convict Trump in either of his impeachment trials, which might have made his run for president much more difficult, but they didn’t.

Throughout these years, an understandable if fatal psychology has been at work. At each stage, stopping Trump would have required extraordinary action by certain people, whether politicians or voters or donors, actions that did not align with their immediate interests or even merely their preferences. It would have been extraordinary for all the Republicans running against Trump in 2016 to decide to give up their hopes for the presidency and unite around one of them. Instead, they behaved normally, spending their time and money attacking each other, assuming that Trump was not their most serious challenge, or that someone else would bring him down, and thereby opened a clear path for Trump’s nomination. And they have, with just a few exceptions, done the same this election cycle. It would have been extraordinary had Mitch McConnell and many other Republican senators voted to convict a president of their own party. Instead, they assumed that after Jan. 6, 2021, Trump was finished and it was therefore safe not to convict him and thus avoid becoming pariahs among the vast throng of Trump supporters. In each instance, people believed they could go on pursuing their personal interests and ambitions as usual in the confidence that somewhere down the line, someone or something else, or simply fate, would stop him. Why should they be the ones to sacrifice their careers? Given the choice between a high-risk gamble and hoping for the best, people generally hope for the best. Given the choice between doing the dirty work yourself and letting others do it, people generally prefer the latter.

A paralyzing psychology of appeasement has also been at work. At each stage, the price of stopping Trump has risen higher and higher. In 2016, the price was forgoing a shot at the White House. Once Trump was elected, the price of opposition, or even the absence of obsequious loyalty, became the end of one’s political career, as Jeff Flake, Bob Corker, Paul D. Ryan and many others discovered. By 2020, the price had risen again. As Mitt Romney recounts in McKay Coppins’s recent biography, Republican members of Congress contemplating voting for Trump’s impeachment and conviction feared for their physical safety and that of their families. There is no reason that fear should be any less today. But wait until Trump returns to power and the price of opposing him becomes persecution, the loss of property and possibly the loss of freedom. Will those who balked at resisting Trump when the risk was merely political oblivion suddenly discover their courage when the cost might be the ruin of oneself and one’s family?

We are closer to that point today than we have ever been, yet we continue to drift toward dictatorship, still hoping for some intervention that will allow us to escape the consequences of our collective cowardice, our complacent, willful ignorance and, above all, our lack of any deep commitment to liberal democracy. As the man said, we are going out not with a bang but a whimper.
Seacoaster(1)
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 6:49 am

Re: Orange Duce

Post by Seacoaster(1) »

old salt wrote: Sat Dec 02, 2023 4:48 am Wow. I never thought I'd see something this unhinged published in the Wash Post. I'll post the entire remarkable piece, in the next post, for the benefit of non-subscribers. It's really long, so if you want to comment, plz quote this post & not the article post, or edit out what you're not specifically commenting on, or this thread will become so long it's unreadable.

Robert Kagan, the author, is the scion of one of the founding NeoCon families, He is married to Victoria Nuland, the currently serving Deputy Secy of State, who helped foment the Maidan Revolution of 2014 & still/again manages the Ukraine portfolio.

Trump's opponents are terrified that if elected, he will turn the powers of govt that have been used against him, upon them.
It's a call to arms to do whatever it takes to stop him, no matter what it takes.
It became laughable when he said that Barr, Kelly & Milley will be in danger & Mike Flynn would be confirmed as CJCS.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... ert-kagan/
That it's "laughable" to you -- a complicit toady and apologist of Trump and the MAGA movement -- seems to confirm that it is more than possible.

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/01/trump- ... tions-2025
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