Israel and West Bank Settlements

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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:09 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:55 am How about some examination of the current facts:

Too many people competing for a limited area.

Not enough basic prerequisites for human existence — water.

The demographics of the parties involved in this land dispute explain the failure of a single state solution: the Palestinian population growth is much faster than the Jewish one.

How about those facts?
What are your thoughts and/or possible solutions for the issues presented above?
If I'm not mistaken, pizza has weighed in on that as well, though he may wish to do so again.

I tend to agree that competing claims about god's will, as justified with scriptural quotes, and historical claims of 'who's on first', are highly unproductive in addressing the dilemmas faced. The claims of all parties have some degree of merit and the reality is that neither will entirely abandon them if that's going to be the basis of any resolution to achieve peace and prosperity.

My own opinion is that there can be no peace and prosperity without two independent states, each of which's own peace and prosperity is dependent upon the successful achievement of such by the other. Likewise, with the rest of the neighborhood.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by PizzaSnake »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:32 am
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:09 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:55 am How about some examination of the current facts:

Too many people competing for a limited area.

Not enough basic prerequisites for human existence — water.

The demographics of the parties involved in this land dispute explain the failure of a single state solution: the Palestinian population growth is much faster than the Jewish one.

How about those facts?
What are your thoughts and/or possible solutions for the issues presented above?
If I'm not mistaken, pizza has weighed in on that as well, though he may wish to do so again.

I tend to agree that competing claims about god's will, as justified with scriptural quotes, and historical claims of 'who's on first', are highly unproductive in addressing the dilemmas faced. The claims of all parties have some degree of merit and the reality is that neither will entirely abandon them if that's going to be the basis of any resolution to achieve peace and prosperity.

My own opinion is that there can be no peace and prosperity without two independent states, each of which's own peace and prosperity is dependent upon the successful achievement of such by the other. Likewise, with the rest of the neighborhood.
“Say something once,
Why say it again?”

— Talking Heads
"There is nothing more difficult and more dangerous to carry through than initiating changes. One makes enemies of those who prospered under the old order, and only lukewarm support from those who would prosper under the new."
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

Palestinians have no direct access to the sea. That needs to be present. Land need to be renegotiated. The settlers need to be neutered.

I have heard/read opinions a two state solution is the only possible and also the one state solution is the only possible solution.

Israel will never agree to a one state democracy.

Six time zones and closing in.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

PizzaSnake wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 11:00 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:32 am
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:09 pm
PizzaSnake wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:55 am How about some examination of the current facts:

Too many people competing for a limited area.

Not enough basic prerequisites for human existence — water.

The demographics of the parties involved in this land dispute explain the failure of a single state solution: the Palestinian population growth is much faster than the Jewish one.

How about those facts?
What are your thoughts and/or possible solutions for the issues presented above?
If I'm not mistaken, pizza has weighed in on that as well, though he may wish to do so again.

I tend to agree that competing claims about god's will, as justified with scriptural quotes, and historical claims of 'who's on first', are highly unproductive in addressing the dilemmas faced. The claims of all parties have some degree of merit and the reality is that neither will entirely abandon them if that's going to be the basis of any resolution to achieve peace and prosperity.

My own opinion is that there can be no peace and prosperity without two independent states, each of which's own peace and prosperity is dependent upon the successful achievement of such by the other. Likewise, with the rest of the neighborhood.
“Say something once,
Why say it again?”

— Talking Heads
Thought you might go with “same as it ever was”-is there still water flowing underground?
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
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MDlaxfan76
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by MDlaxfan76 »

OCanada wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:50 am Palestinians have no direct access to the sea. That needs to be present. Land need to be renegotiated. The settlers need to be neutered.

I have heard/read opinions a two state solution is the only possible and also the one state solution is the only possible solution.

Israel will never agree to a one state democracy.

Six time zones and closing in.
Gaza is on the sea. There used to be a connecting land bridge between Gaza and West Bank. Could be again.

As I said, the two independent states need to be interdependent, with both states having a stake in the other's peace and prosperity. There may need to be an international security component, certainly there needs to be a sharing of access to Jerusalem perhaps with international control independent of either.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

In a difficult time, Kevin Youkilis speaks out for unity and positivity
By Dan Shaughnessy Globe Staff - November 24, 2023

Image
As a coach in last spring's World Baseball Classic, Kevin Youkilis wore his Team Israel uniform with pride.

Kevin Youkilis gave the Red Sox 8½ quality seasons. He made three All-Star teams, won a Gold Glove and two World Series, and finished in the top six in MVP voting twice — ranking third in 2008 when he hit .312 with 29 homers and 115 RBIs. He is in the Red Sox Hall of Fame, owns a brewery in California, is married to Tom Brady’s sister, has three children, and spends summertime with Dave O’Brien in the NESN booth.

Oh, and he’s also Jewish, which is unusual for a big league baseball player. Just more than 200 of the 23,115 men who have worn big league uniforms are/were Jewish. Youkilis never made much of it when he was playing here, and a lot of us thought he was Greek because “Moneyball” dubbed him “the Greek God of Walks.”

Things changed for Jewish people around the world Oct. 7 when Hamas invaded Israel and slaughtered civilians. Israel subsequently declared a state of war, and antisemitism has been on the rise over the last several weeks. No longer content to stay on the sideline, Youk is using his social media platforms to educate others and dial back the hatred.

“My dad died three years ago, and he was very proud of his Jewish heritage,” Youkilis said from California. “I know he would have spoken out. So for me, it was like, ‘What would my dad do?’ and ‘What would my dad want me to do?’

“I don’t think of myself as a celebrity. I just feel that there’s a lot of Jewish people that are hurting.”

Youkilis’s Twitter avatar is a photo of him wearing his Team Israel baseball cap. In early November, Youk re-posted a tweet featuring a photo of Harvard students surrounding a Jewish student during an anti-Israel protest, and wrote, “I wish I was back in Boston to walk alongside my Jewish brother in this moment where these cowards needed to use a mob mentality to try and intimidate.”

In another tweet, dated Nov. 13, Youkilis wrote, “I’ve had a lot of great convos with Jewish friends & family over the past few weeks. The hatred that has been displayed in public and online has only brought us closer together. A flame has been lit and we’ve never been as proud as we are now of our Jewish heritage.”

“As a baseball player, you develop thick skin from words,” said Youkilis. “I can laugh about some of this stuff online. But some of it is not funny because it’s absolute lies and falsehoods. Oct. 7 will go down as one of the worst days in Jewish history. And the amount of hatred being shown toward Jewish people is astronomical.

“I’ve spoken out about it on my feed, on my Instagram. I’ve known it’s always been there, but it’s been kind of silent. But for some reason this thing on Oct. 7 — which was just disgusting beyond words — was like a steroid for people that feel empowered. And I felt it was time to stand up and step up for the Jewish people. I’m just trying to post positive things.

“Growing up in Cincinnati, I was a minority within a minority, being Jewish and being a baseball player. It was just different in a lot of ways. But one of the great things about coaching with Team Israel in the WBC this year was that a lot of the ballplayers told me that I was their inspiration as a young kid.

“My message now is that we all need to be more educated. Educate yourself. In the Jewish religion, we are taught that idolizing individuals is inappropriate. On social media, people are starting to idolize individuals and take everything they say as facts. So really educate yourself and don’t take somebody else’s word as facts.

“As for all the Jewish people, life’s tough. There are unfortunate times, but you’ve got to dig down deep and hope and believe that we’re all going to get to a better side of this eventually, but it’s going to take a lot of time and a lot of fight.

“Just remember that yelling back and forth on social media does no good for yourself or to solve the problem at hand. Try to be positive and bring light to your family and friends and just come together as one and be united.”
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

I find this well documented treatment of the history of Israel and the Arabs most educational. Not easy to watch but it sheds a lot of light on why things are the way they are in present day Israel. Free on YouTube. Decent copies too.

https://youtu.be/IhfysdHgGh8?si=MtXMZhMXep3JkmTt
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Brooklyn »

Give Peace a Chance


https://libertarianinstitute.org/articl ... -a-chance/


Armchair generals and warmongers often share a similar view when it comes to analyzing historical and contemporary events; if the military was not constrained, then victory would be assured. That is the language of mass murderers disguised beneath the need for strategic necessity. It’s ruthless execution uninhibited by morality or law. It’s the collectivists’ sword wielded with savage disregard for innocent individuals. As the war drums beat we hear the same voices now calling for death and destruction. The solution: more military power, operations, kill, conquer, bomb, destroy!

On the cusp of another world war, the world watches on as experts and war hawks try to sound rational, even righteous. In their minds it is reasonable to wage a multi-front war against numerous nations. This is a sign that the American empire is in its death throes, but war may be redemptive. Perhaps their thinking is not so clear cut, but the danger to the world does suggest it may be be that simplistic and ludicrous.

A call to arms has been simmering for some time. It began with the cruise missile diplomacy that emerged at the end of the Cold War and has matured into embargoes and drone strikes. Operating from numerous military bases, allied with coalitions of friendly nations, and with trillions of dollars in debt and a militant culture, the United States is again focusing its arsenal. War is seen as inevitable and acceptable. Even the bloodshed, destruction, hatred, and sorrow.

To be antiwar can at times be contrarian to the point of extremes. To go along with the energy for war, or merely be apathetic, is a tradition that many have come to understand as being normal. A powerful government that employs, protects, and provides monopoly services will occasionally make demands on its populace. It’s the patriotic thing to serve. It’s right to support the war. Otherwise, one is criticizing the courage of the troops, betraying them.

That mentality is guided by variations of societal conditioning, but it is also self-inflicted. In the march to war, the cowardly shy away from controversial opinions. To be antiwar is to err on the side of the radical. Or if they do disagree with war it’s barely with a whisper in the safety of one’s own company. To bring up such an “ugly” topic elsewhere would be impolite. Past penalties for violating this social taboo have been tar and feathering, arrest, and ridicule by both the state and peers.

Even the bad wars have some benefit, we are told. In war a nation can earn reputation and define itself, technology is invented, knowledge gained, and the next generation is tested. Plus, jobs are created! The lie of World War II is that it ended the Great Depression and that it was fought for freedom, liberation. Napoleon and the Kaiser had to be stopped to prevent a single power from controling all of Europe, don’t you know? That’s why the European Union is in charge. The American myth is that their Founders fought a war of separation from the British crown to end taxation so that their descendents could build the biggest government and empire in history. For Australians, our mythology is that the defeat at Gallipoli helped to forge a national identity. While some may find glory and adventure in this tall tale, the truth is gory and miserable.

For those who have vested interests, war is profitable. For weapons manufacturers it is a guaranteed income. Then other industries benefit from contracts that come from a wasteful government seeking all the help it can get. Politicians benefit from inventing threats and calling for war against external or internal enemies. (It’s an ancient tactic.) The media and academics benefit from the coverage of war and the expertise needed to sell war. The speculation and research that goes into propping up phony threats and intellectualizing imperialism and mass murder is how the civilized kill babies. It’s even advertisement friendly for networks and online platforms.

On the cusp of war, clarity begins to be lost.

Dignity and respect for the individual follow. Suddenly, everyone from the targeted pariah region or race or faith deserves death. They need to be punished, killed, humiliated and, even if they seek surrender (if that’s at all possible in the modern age of war), they are still made to suffer. Any injustices from the home team are omitted or explained as pragmatic exertions. A school bus full of children obliterated? A cheerleader will brush it off with, “Things happen in war.” A massacre of the unarmed? “They do it as well.”

War is the most human of all actions and it’s where our sociopath tendencies prevail. Every action leads to outcomes that have consequences for individual human beings. An important hand swipe across a map, or a low rank finger pulling a trigger, all lead to outcomes that ruin lives. The futility is that before, when everything is so certain, the need for immediate action and the energy to conquer and kill is unstoppable. After, once the smoke clears, such energy and desire is lost to time, seemingly forgotten by many old enough to know better.

The American war on Vietnam, the invasion of Iraq, and twenty years of occupying Afghanistan are all now mostly accepted as being regretful wars, “mistakes.” Before they were mechanically pursued. Despite antiwar protests and the argument of the opposition, those wars happened. Opposition to war is often marginalized as pacifists, ideological radicals, or hippies. Anyone who is wary of war must be on the side of the enemy, or at least a deluded isolationist. Kooks, essentially. But when the body bags fill up—the Black Tulip flights, as the Russians call them—and return home to fill coffins, war wariness becomes mainstream. It’s suddenly mature and reasonable to question the war and advocate its end. Such collective realization always comes too late.

If it was not for the First World War, much of the horrible history that followed would not be possible. It ensured the Second World War, the rise of totalitarianism, and a post-colonial world marred by ethnic conflicts and genocide. If anything is going to lead to unintended consequences, it would have to be war. It does not bring peace, but instead just creates the next war.

There is a helpless wariness of war among the lower tiers of society. They are already struggling. People in government do not favor them or listen to them. They are unable to profit from war. In times of conscription, it’s their sons (and soon daughters) that fill uniforms and body bags. Despite claims that liberty democracy grants a voice to the public-at-large, those nations tend to march to war regardless of consensus. Referendums are seldom if ever used to determine war as the answer. Ironically, it’s often the nations doing the invading which have a system of government that’s supposed to allow such democratic process.

I was recently asked why it’s called antiwar and not pro-peace. Perhaps the answer is that peace tends to be reactionary. But for the most part it’s the normal state of humanity. Moments of violence become memorable and defining, and savage violence is life changing. War on the other hand is a collective monstrosity, the coercion and recruitment of individuals to harm and fight others.

A friend who works in the defense industry told me that the war in Ukraine bought him his Audi. There are bonuses and great benefits to working in the arms sector. Many claim to hate or dread the military-industrial complex, yet will eagerly work inside of it. That seems to be the defining feature of most Western societies: income above all else. The blood of foreigners may as well be an abstract compared to the tangible dollars flooding into a bank account. Mass murder is good for the economy of the immoral and unprincipled. It’s a nightmare for everyone else.

If war is meant to unite, to fix an economy, or to spread peace then we have failed. It’s been demonstrated to be ineffective at all of the above. War leads to more war. Those of us who are antiwar or pro-peace must say no. Just stop. To quote John Lennon, “All we are saying, is give peace a chance.”





As I have written on this forum (and on LP) many times before, take all the profit out of war and then we will have peace.
It has been proven a hundred times that the surest way to the heart of any man, black or white, honest or dishonest, is through justice and fairness.

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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by a fan »

OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:20 am I find this well documented treatment of the history of Israel and the Arabs most educational. Not easy to watch but it sheds a lot of light on why things are the way they are in present day Israel. Free on YouTube. Decent copies too.

https://youtu.be/IhfysdHgGh8?si=MtXMZhMXep3JkmTt
The problem with discussing history is that the Palestinians don't tell the same story. They think this is stolen land from 1,000 years ago, and, naturally, not one square inch of Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. is "theirs". It's 100% the Israelis who have the "stolen" land. Which is absurd, of course, and speaks to what we're really dealing with here.

In other words: "only" Israel needs to go back to these ancient borders. No other country on Earth has to meet this arbitrary "map standard". No one, for example, is demanding that the Canadians, Americans, and Australians need to give up their land to the folks "who were there first". And we all know why.

My advice: completely ignore any discussion of history, because it's pointless, and gets you bogged down in ridiculous conversations and half-wit logic that leads nowhere.

Deal with 2023. Two States. Get the Israelis to agree on a hard border. Have the UN troops run it for as long as needed (likely 100 years). Palestinians can't govern. Neither can the Israelis.

Build Gaza up with US, Arab, and allied dollars into an economic center. It will take time, but from where I sit? Unless a third party gets in there? This will never go away. Ever.

Just my two cents. Just want people to stop tearing each other up, and just live in peace.


Edited for a mistake.
Last edited by a fan on Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OuttaNowhereWregget »

a fan wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:14 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:20 am I find this well documented treatment of the history of Israel and the Arabs most educational. Not easy to watch but it sheds a lot of light on why things are the way they are in present day Israel. Free on YouTube. Decent copies too.

https://youtu.be/IhfysdHgGh8?si=MtXMZhMXep3JkmTt
The problem with discussing history is that the Palestinians don't tell the same story. They think this is stolen land from 1,000 years ago, and, naturally, not one square inch of Jordan, Israel or Egypt is "theirs". It's 100% the Israelis who have the "stolen" land. Which is absurd, of course, and speaks to what we're really dealing with here.

In other words: "only" Israel needs to go back to these ancient borders. No other country on Earth has to meet this arbitrary "map standard". No one, for example, is demanding that the Canadians, Americans, and Australians need to give up their land to the folks "who were there first". And we all know why.

My advice: completely ignore any discussion of history, because it's pointless, and gets you bogged down in ridiculous conversations and half-wit logic that leads nowhere.

Deal with 2023. Two States. Get the Israelis to agree on a hard border. Have the UN troops run it for as long as needed (likely 100 years). Palestinians can't govern. Neither can the Israelis.

Build Gaza up with US, Arab, and allied dollars into an economic center. It will take time, but from where I sit? Unless a third party gets in there? This will never go away. Ever.

Just my two cents. Just want people to stop tearing each other up, and just live in peace.
Well said. I appreciate the level-headed thoughts about the past and the possible solutions for the future.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:31 am
OCanada wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:50 am Palestinians have no direct access to the sea. That needs to be present. Land need to be renegotiated. The settlers need to be neutered.

I have heard/read opinions a two state solution is the only possible and also the one state solution is the only possible solution.

Israel will never agree to a one state democracy.

Six time zones and closing in.
Gaza is on the sea. There used to be a connecting land bridge between Gaza and West Bank. Could be again.

As I said, the two independent states need to be interdependent, with both states having a stake in the other's peace and prosperity. There may need to be an international security component, certainly there needs to be a sharing of access to Jerusalem perhaps with international control independent of either.
Israel has been blockading Gaza since 2007.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

a fan wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:14 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:20 am I find this well documented treatment of the history of Israel and the Arabs most educational. Not easy to watch but it sheds a lot of light on why things are the way they are in present day Israel. Free on YouTube. Decent copies too.

https://youtu.be/IhfysdHgGh8?si=MtXMZhMXep3JkmTt
The problem with discussing history is that the Palestinians don't tell the same story. They think this is stolen land from 1,000 years ago, and, naturally, not one square inch of Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. is "theirs". It's 100% the Israelis who have the "stolen" land. Which is absurd, of course, and speaks to what we're really dealing with here.

In other words: "only" Israel needs to go back to these ancient borders. No other country on Earth has to meet this arbitrary "map standard". No one, for example, is demanding that the Canadians, Americans, and Australians need to give up their land to the folks "who were there first". And we all know why.

My advice: completely ignore any discussion of history, because it's pointless, and gets you bogged down in ridiculous conversations and half-wit logic that leads nowhere.

Deal with 2023. Two States. Get the Israelis to agree on a hard border. Have the UN troops run it for as long as needed (likely 100 years). Palestinians can't govern. Neither can the Israelis.

Build Gaza up with US, Arab, and allied dollars into an economic center. It will take time, but from where I sit? Unless a third party gets in there? This will never go away. Ever.

Just my two cents. Just want people to stop tearing each other up, and just live in peace.


Edited for a mistake.
+1 a Fan. Rehashing ancient history is pointless. Gaza could be a world class destination on the Mediterranean Sea. All of this violence and destruction is beyond senseless. All both sides need to do is respect the other sides right to exist. Perhaps if they could forget history and concentrate on the future of the region peoples hearts and minds can be changed.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:58 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 10:31 am
OCanada wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:50 am Palestinians have no direct access to the sea. That needs to be present. Land need to be renegotiated. The settlers need to be neutered.

I have heard/read opinions a two state solution is the only possible and also the one state solution is the only possible solution.

Israel will never agree to a one state democracy.

Six time zones and closing in.
Gaza is on the sea. There used to be a connecting land bridge between Gaza and West Bank. Could be again.

As I said, the two independent states need to be interdependent, with both states having a stake in the other's peace and prosperity. There may need to be an international security component, certainly there needs to be a sharing of access to Jerusalem perhaps with international control independent of either.
Israel has been blockading Gaza since 2007.
I suppose that has a lot to do with the relentless rocket attacks originating from Gaza. The many miles of tunnels constructed in Gaza by Hamas were constructed to accommodate their objective. That objective is the destruction of Israel. When the guiding principle is an eye for an eye both sides wind up blind.
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
We don't make mistakes, we have happy accidents.
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by OCanada »

I know what you think bcs of what you write. In case you missed my posts or have a bad memory. My first wife was Jewish. Her parents were sabra. I dated a sabra for almost a year going to and from to Israel. For three years i dated a jewish girl whose mother was a russian jew and father was a german jew who families lost almost everyone in the Holocaust. I spent almost 15 years inside the culture and believe me have read and discussed Israel more than you ever will. You would do well to review my posts. Or you can just continue cutting your nose off. Nice try child but you basically are Israel illiterate
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

a fan wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 12:14 pm
OuttaNowhereWregget wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 11:20 am I find this well documented treatment of the history of Israel and the Arabs most educational. Not easy to watch but it sheds a lot of light on why things are the way they are in present day Israel. Free on YouTube. Decent copies too.

https://youtu.be/IhfysdHgGh8?si=MtXMZhMXep3JkmTt
The problem with discussing history is that the Palestinians don't tell the same story. They think this is stolen land from 1,000 years ago, and, naturally, not one square inch of Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc. is "theirs". It's 100% the Israelis who have the "stolen" land. Which is absurd, of course, and speaks to what we're really dealing with here.

In other words: "only" Israel needs to go back to these ancient borders. No other country on Earth has to meet this arbitrary "map standard". No one, for example, is demanding that the Canadians, Americans, and Australians need to give up their land to the folks "who were there first". And we all know why.

My advice: completely ignore any discussion of history, because it's pointless, and gets you bogged down in ridiculous conversations and half-wit logic that leads nowhere.

Deal with 2023. Two States. Get the Israelis to agree on a hard border. Have the UN troops run it for as long as needed (likely 100 years). Palestinians can't govern. Neither can the Israelis.

Build Gaza up with US, Arab, and allied dollars into an economic center. It will take time, but from where I sit? Unless a third party gets in there? This will never go away. Ever.

Just my two cents. Just want people to stop tearing each other up, and just live in peace.


Edited for a mistake.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5IP7kFfsVP0
Harvard University, out
University of Utah, in

I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

(Afan jealous he didn’t do this first)
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
Agree w the comment but this is something I’d love to see explored more.
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Farfromgeneva
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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by Farfromgeneva »

cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
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I am going to get a 4.0 in damage.

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Re: Israel and Zionism

Post by cradleandshoot »

Farfromgeneva wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 8:12 am
cradleandshoot wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:45 am
OCanada wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:08 am Just as Israel’s ultimate goal is a Palestinian free land. Israel is a nuclear power with a well trained and well equipped IDF. Where power is overwhelmingly on one side asymmetric warfare is usually the result. The sabra generation and earlier waged a guerrilla warfare against the British. The most famous event being blowing up the King David Hotel with the loss of a hundred or so innocent lives. I believe it was the Irgun but it might have been another group. Back in the 40’s. You really should study up and set your Islamophobia aside. It is the only way peace will ever be achieved.
My Islamophobia is news to me. How do you know what I think?? The UN created Israel in 1948 with the expectations they would figure out the 2 state solution. In case you haven't done your homework, which apparently you did not do, Israel is surrounded by countries that have worked diligently in the past to eradicate Israel. They survive by being strong militarily. Their weakness is what invited the Hamas attack on October 7. Maybe you should take your own advice and bone up on the history of Israel post 1948. Are you familiar with the threat Iran poses to Israel through its surrogate terrorist network? Are you aware of who is supplying Hamas with those 10s of thousands of rockets they launch into Israel?? How does Israel deal with an adversary whose mission #1 is to wipe your people off the face of the earth. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't nazi Germany try doing that 80 years ago??
Do you think folks here who clearly demonstrated deeper knowledge in a subject haven’t done their homework like you? Constant silliness like this which is so totally dumb.

Now I expect you to suck the UNs n**s forever if your going to swing firm their kick in this topic. Because the UN said so if your support.
Funny how all that deep knowledge from all of those smart people hasn't accomplished diddly jack chit since 1948. I didn't create Israel in 1948, the UN made that happen. What is so complicated about this issue that it sails right over your head? Your a self admitted genius. What is your solution?? :roll:
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