Sensible Gun Safety

[DMac]

MDlax wrote

I've asked numerous times with no answer what aspect of one's enjoyment of handling an AR-15 or similar high capacity 'assault' weapon would be lost if the use and storage was confined to well regulated gun ranges?

Hell raising. I'd bet the majority who like to play with AR15s (or similar high capacity assault weapons) would quickly tire of firing ranges. Too many rules, they want to see how much damage they can do, targets downrange aren't going to do that. What can I rip up, tear up and blow up with this thing is more the mentality, IMO. Throw a few of these out there when playing and you've got yourself a fun day.
https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/sonic-b ... 576a08da39

Yup, a lot of ways to enjoy "hell raising", but this is one that should be discouraged generally. Of course, there could also be gun ranges where there's a "hell raising" component available, yet safely managed and maintained.

Can bring your thirty-pack of Old Milwaukee too?
That's pretty much a must.

[WaffleTwineFaceoff]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

[DMac]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

[MDlaxfan76]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

If not a shill or employee, definitely drinking the Kool-Aid.

You're unresponsive or slippery to the the points of others, convinced that if you just keep making the claim that huge numbers of people now own these weapons so there must not be an issue with their usage, that argument will persuade anyone.

We have grossly more gun deaths in the US than anywhere else in the developed world. And grossly more mass shootings. The weapon of choice for mass shootings are the weapons designed to kill as many people as possible in the least amount of time.

I've provided straightforward arguments and propositions to meet the desires of law abiding, careful gun owners like you claim to be. Just not succumbing to the "freedumb" arguments.

Not sure what your emphasis on "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA" is supposed to signal. Sure, the USA is a federal constitutional republic, and it is a democracy, though not a direct democracy. Yup.

The relevance to this phrase is what? Whether some restrictions on who, how, where, when we "enjoy" our guns are "constitutionally banned restrictions on our "rights" versus the regulation of our privileges in our society?

Is that why you're leaning on that phrase?

[Typical Lax Dad]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

You do realize the leading cause of death among children in the USA is guns.

[MDlaxfan76]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

Yup, and lots of such land could be utilized for the well regulated gun ranges I describe. Won't be able to do the 30 pack though.

[WaffleTwineFaceoff]

You do realize the leading cause of death among children in the USA is guns.

That claim depends upon how much massaging and manipulating of the definition of what constitutes "children" has taken place.

https://crimeresearch.org/2023/05/looki ... -or-teens/

https://highlandcountypress.com/no-joe- ... #gsc.tab=0

https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/misleadi ... ld-deaths/

Please direct comments regarding shilling, industry lobbying, and the like to the various sites and authors who chose to point out what they chose to point out. I'm just sharing links I found when I first heard this claim. As I've mentioned, I'm a curious and skeptical kind of person when it comes to reportage on "hot button issues".

And with this post, it is high time I exit stage left. I'm off to shoot some turd (did this site just correct "s*it into "turd"???)! Just kidding. Despite appearances, I've shot all of 5 times in 2023. Been a busy year.

Be well, gents.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You do realize the leading cause of death among children in the USA is guns.

That claim depends upon how much massaging and manipulating of the definition of what constitutes "children" has taken place.

https://crimeresearch.org/2023/05/looki ... -or-teens/

https://highlandcountypress.com/no-joe- ... #gsc.tab=0

https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/misleadi ... ld-deaths/

Please direct comments regarding shilling, industry lobbying, and the like to the various sites and authors who chose to point out what they chose to point out. I'm just sharing links I found when I first heard this claim. As I've mentioned, I'm a curious and skeptical kind of person when it comes to reportage on "hot button issues".

And with this post, it is high time I exit stage left. I'm off to shoot some turd (did this site just correct "s*it into "turd"???)! Just kidding. Despite appearances, I've shot all of 5 times in 2023. Been a busy year.

Be well, gents.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmc2201761

Thanks.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I had two friends and a cousin all killed at 18. I considered them kids when looking back on it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

You do realize the leading cause of death among children in the USA is guns.

That claim depends upon how much massaging and manipulating of the definition of what constitutes "children" has taken place.

https://crimeresearch.org/2023/05/looki ... -or-teens/

https://highlandcountypress.com/no-joe- ... #gsc.tab=0

https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/misleadi ... ld-deaths/

Please direct comments regarding shilling, industry lobbying, and the like to the various sites and authors who chose to point out what they chose to point out. I'm just sharing links I found when I first heard this claim. As I've mentioned, I'm a curious and skeptical kind of person when it comes to reportage on "hot button issues".

And with this post, it is high time I exit stage left. I'm off to shoot some turd (did this site just correct "s*it into "turd"???)! Just kidding. Despite appearances, I've shot all of 5 times in 2023. Been a busy year.

Be well, gents.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lott

https://crimeresearch.org/op-eds/

https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/author/editorial-team/

You a troll.

[DMac]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

You do realize the leading cause of death among children in the USA is guns.

Not seeing where that has a whole lot to do with what I said. Same story year in and year out, 400 million guns, 45K, or so, gun deaths per year. 54% suicide, 43% murder (criminal activity?) 3% other. The numbers tell us we are very responsible gun owners. Not much going to change suicide numbers (m-in-law drowned herself, mother ODed on pills, no guns involved, they both found a way), criminal activity is what it is. Take those numbers out and you can only deduct that across the board we're very responsible gun owners. Up to age 19 is considered "children", how many of those are teen gang related, drug deals (legalize them) gone bad?

[Typical Lax Dad]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

You do realize the leading cause of death among children in the USA is guns.

Not seeing where that has a whole lot to do with what I said. Same story year in and year out, 400 million guns, 45K, or so, gun deaths per year. 54% suicide, 43% murder (criminal activity?) 3% other. The numbers tell us we are very responsible gun owners. Not much going to change suicide numbers (m-in-law drowned herself, mother ODed on pills, no guns involved, they both found a way), criminal activity is what it is. Take those numbers out and you can only deduct that across the board we're very responsible gun owners. Up to age 19 is considered "children", how many of those are teen gang related, drug deals (legalize them) gone bad?

If gun deaths isn’t a problem then neither are drugs, accidents and the list of other things that kill children. How big of a problem is debatable. Anyway, I understand what you meant but I like to use other first world countries as a comp.

Your position of “it could be worse” is true.

You know, crime really isn’t a problem because the vast majority of people aren’t criminals….just imagine if 1/2 the people were criminals. I don’t understand why people worry about crime.

Most people don’t walk in and steal stuff from drug stores like we see on the internet? Why worry about it…..

[cradleandshoot]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

Yup, and lots of such land could be utilized for the well regulated gun ranges I describe. Won't be able to do the 30 pack though.

Nice idea in theory, when you slip back to reality doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of ever happening. You can keep dreaming. Where do these "well regulated" rifle ranges come from?? There are probably 10s of millions of AR-15 owners that don't want diddly squat to do with well regulated rifle ranges. The "well regulated" part is the fly in the ointment. You think these people want "well regulated" ? What they want as law abiding, tax paying citizens is to be left alone to exercise their rights granted to them under the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution. You shoot ducks and they shoot silhouette targets. I would think a lifelong conservative republican such as yourself would respect the US Constitution?

[WaffleTwineFaceoff]

I had two friends and a cousin all killed at 18. I considered them kids when looking back on it.

I'm pretty sure the 11,500 American KIA deaths in Vietnam who were 17-19 years old were honored as "Men who gave their lives for their country". Not children. Men. Same goes for the nearly 1,000 both 18-19 year olds KIA in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So, I'm a troll for providing links (and I could have provided an entirely different set of similarly skeptical ones) which dare to question narrative bolstering claims being widely circulated, quoted and recirculated by those who are virulently anti-gun? When the professor at the blackboard writes 1+1=3, it causes me to do something which seems to be in short supply here: become curious, skeptical, and willing to poke at and try to gain an understanding of the methodology's which were utilized, and the conclusions drawn. I call BS on "Firearms are the leading cause of death of children in America". Your right to call my right to call BS BS. After all, I've been exposed as a deep cover operative for the NRA sent here to this fanlax thread to disrupt the apple cart.

I've endeavored to reply to direct questions here as best I can, and knowing that breaking into this old boys club with my particular viewpoints on this topic will be nigh impossible. I at least appreciate the name calling has been minimal compared to what I've seen perusing back through time on this topic. Small graces.

Last night was interesting. Sat beside my spouse who was Netflix & Chilling, while I was Merlot and Googling. Gotta love fire season. Hope the government doesn't ban wood smoke!

I stumbled upon this ongoing RAND study updated January 2023. Interesting. Your mileage and takeaways may vary. I suppose I should preface any link I provide here with some sort of disclaimer like "This link is intended for your consideration. It in no way implies you have to read, agree, think, care, submit to, or change your mind regarding any of the content, should you choose to click on it."

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-polic ... icies.html

The RAND conclusions would point to one thing everyone should be able to be in agreement with: Education regarding the safe handling and storage of firearms, along with providing equipment which helps facilitate that if a firearm owner is unable to afford such devices economically. This would immediately help mitigate the number of deaths of ACTUAL (my opinion) children in America, suicide in America, and Violent Crime in America. What's not to like? Regarding the other conclusions, data, research, and studies, there are a whole lot of "Inconclusive" and "Limited" indicated based on where we are right now. You got a problem with any of this, please feel free to reach out to RAND.

I also found this study below, which likely won't be popular with many here. For your consideration. It kind of falls in the "I wonder what kind of dialogues COULD happen if anti-gun activists, lobbyists, and politicians and pro-gun rights activists, lobbyists and politicians, called a truce on the "Assault Weapons Bans" battle, and instead focused on finding commonalities and collaboration which might be tenable to both sides. For your consideration:

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/state- ... un-deaths/

Author's words: "mirrored analyses of Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC) homicide data serve to double down on evidence that controlling WHO has access to guns has much more impact on reducing gun-related homicides than controlling WHAT guns people have". He continues: "we have a pretty good grasp at what’s going on. People who shouldn’t have access to guns are getting access.”

It seems clear to me that if we focused on restricting bad acting criminal and unstable "Who's", instead of regulating/criminalizing in common and lawful use "Scary black What's" (and by proxy millions of responsible law-abiding citizens who own firearms), we might actually start to make a difference in reducing criminal violence in America which results from the criminal utilization of firearms.

A big part of this discussion would have to be Red Flag laws, which are rightfully receiving pushback due to the lack of a clear frameworks to protect innocent people from being "Minority Reported" unfairly and in direct violation of their Constitutional rights. I can state with certainly there are clear cases of misuse and abuse, and they rightfully make any law-abiding gun owner angry and wary. But we're a pretty smart country filled with lots of really smart people. How about crafting a Red Flag Law system with uniform methodologies with regards to checks and balances, and severe criminal and civil penalties for reporting abuses? We could do that, right? We'll build in these penalties statutorily, and extend them to law enforcement agencies, district attorney, and judges who are found in violation of clearly delineated application parameters. These scary consequences will make any disgruntled ex-spouse, neighbor, or jealous co-worker, and bullying elected officials, think twice before being a petty, vindictive d-bag protected by the knowledge there are no consequences for their actions. Does anyone here think something like that could gain traction?

Anyways, all of us won't hold our collective breaths, will we, as the no compromise polarization of this issue will keep us stuck and squabbling, blaming and gaming?

Thirty years ago:

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-libra ... olence-gun

Interesting read.

Almost thirty years ago:

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archi ... 677401.pdf

Interesting read.

Okay, waffles are getting cold. Be well.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I had two friends and a cousin all killed at 18. I considered them kids when looking back on it.

I'm pretty sure the 11,500 American KIA deaths in Vietnam who were 17-19 years old were honored as "Men who gave their lives for their country". Not children. Men. Same goes for the nearly 1,000 both 18-19 year olds KIA in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So, I'm a troll for providing links (and I could have provided an entirely different set of similarly skeptical ones) which dare to question narrative bolstering claims being widely circulated, quoted and recirculated by those who are virulently anti-gun? When the professor at the blackboard writes 1+1=3, it causes me to do something which seems to be in short supply here: become curious, skeptical, and willing to poke at and try to gain an understanding of the methodology's which were utilized, and the conclusions drawn. I call BS on "Firearms are the leading cause of death of children in America". Your right to call my right to call BS BS. After all, I've been exposed as a deep cover operative for the NRA sent here to this fanlax thread to disrupt the apple cart.

I've endeavored to reply to direct questions here as best I can, and knowing that breaking into this old boys club with my particular viewpoints on this topic will be nigh impossible. I at least appreciate the name calling has been minimal compared to what I've seen perusing back through time on this topic. Small graces.

Last night was interesting. Sat beside my spouse who was Netflix & Chilling, while I was Merlot and Googling. Gotta love fire season. Hope the government doesn't ban wood smoke!

I stumbled upon this ongoing RAND study updated January 2023. Interesting. Your mileage and takeaways may vary. I suppose I should preface any link I provide here with some sort of disclaimer like "This link is intended for your consideration. It in no way implies you have to read, agree, think, care, submit to, or change your mind regarding any of the content, should you choose to click on it."

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-polic ... icies.html

The RAND conclusions would point to one thing everyone should be able to be in agreement with: Education regarding the safe handling and storage of firearms, along with providing equipment which helps facilitate that if a firearm owner is unable to afford such devices economically. This would immediately help mitigate the number of deaths of ACTUAL (my opinion) children in America, suicide in America, and Violent Crime in America. What's not to like? Regarding the other conclusions, data, research, and studies, there are a whole lot of "Inconclusive" and "Limited" indicated based on where we are right now. You got a problem with any of this, please feel free to reach out to RAND.

I also found this study below, which likely won't be popular with many here. For your consideration. It kind of falls in the "I wonder what kind of dialogues COULD happen if anti-gun activists, lobbyists, and politicians and pro-gun rights activists, lobbyists and politicians, called a truce on the "Assault Weapons Bans" battle, and instead focused on finding commonalities and collaboration which might be tenable to both sides. For your consideration:

https://www.bu.edu/articles/2019/state- ... un-deaths/

Author's words: "mirrored analyses of Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC) homicide data serve to double down on evidence that controlling WHO has access to guns has much more impact on reducing gun-related homicides than controlling WHAT guns people have". He continues: "we have a pretty good grasp at what’s going on. People who shouldn’t have access to guns are getting access.”

It seems clear to me that if we focused on restricting bad acting criminal and unstable "Who's", instead of regulating/criminalizing in common and lawful use "Scary black What's" (and by proxy millions of responsible law-abiding citizens who own firearms), we might actually start to make a difference in reducing criminal violence in America which results from the criminal utilization of firearms.

A big part of this discussion would have to be Red Flag laws, which are rightfully receiving pushback due to the lack of a clear frameworks to protect innocent people from being "Minority Reported" unfairly and in direct violation of their Constitutional rights. I can state with certainly there are clear cases of misuse and abuse, and they rightfully make any law-abiding gun owner angry and wary. But we're a pretty smart country filled with lots of really smart people. How about crafting a Red Flag Law system with uniform methodologies with regards to checks and balances, and severe criminal and civil penalties for reporting abuses? We could do that, right? We'll build in these penalties statutorily, and extend them to law enforcement agencies, district attorney, and judges who are found in violation of clearly delineated application parameters. These scary consequences will make any disgruntled ex-spouse, neighbor, or jealous co-worker, and bullying elected officials, think twice before being a petty, vindictive d-bag protected by the knowledge there are no consequences for their actions. Does anyone here think something like that could gain traction?

Anyways, all of us won't hold our collective breaths, will we, as the no compromise polarization of this issue will keep us stuck and squabbling, blaming and gaming?

Thirty years ago:

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-libra ... olence-gun

Interesting read.

Almost thirty years ago:

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archi ... 677401.pdf

Interesting read.

Okay, waffles are getting cold. Be well.

[WaffleTwineFaceoff]

Touche! Good flick. I like the fantasy/horror while also being a think piece blend. Highly recommended for trolls and non-trolls alike. If we could all just get along.

Here's a oldie but goodie you might relate to (Gaslight / 1944):

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036855/

[DMac]

You do realize the leading cause of death among children in the USA is guns.

I find this to be somewhat misleading in the context of the assault weapons and school shootings discussion.
Guns kill too many children, period. Agree.
"Children". Homicide is the number one cause of gun deaths among "children". You can get rid of every AR15
and other types of assault weapons and that will change next to nothing (legalizing all drugs would do more, IMO).
Too many children killing other children. When you put your uniform on and go off to war at 18-19 you're a man,
when 18-19 killing your enemy in the drug war you're a child.

Looked at another way, Black children and teens were roughly five times as likely as their White counterparts to die from gunfire in 2021. There were 11.8 gun deaths per 100,000 Black children and teens that year, compared with 2.3 gun deaths per 100,000 White children and teens. The gun death rate among Hispanic children and teens was also 2.3 deaths per 100,000 in 2021, while it was lower among Asian children and teens (0.9 per 100,000).

There are also major racial and ethnic differences in the types of gun deaths involving children and teens. In 2021, a large majority of gun deaths involving Black children and teens (84%) were homicides, while 9% were suicides. Among White children and teens, by contrast, the majority of gun deaths (66%) were suicides, while a much smaller share (24%) were homicides.

In this analysis, Black, White and Asian children and teens include only those who are single-race and not Hispanic, while Hispanic children and teens are of any race.

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... two-years/

[MDlaxfan76]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

Yup, and lots of such land could be utilized for the well regulated gun ranges I describe. Won't be able to do the 30 pack though.

Nice idea in theory, when you slip back to reality doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of ever happening. You can keep dreaming. Where do these "well regulated" rifle ranges come from?? There are probably 10s of millions of AR-15 owners that don't want diddly squat to do with well regulated rifle ranges. The "well regulated" part is the fly in the ointment. You think these people want "well regulated" ? What they want as law abiding, tax paying citizens is to be left alone to exercise their rights granted to them under the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution. You shoot ducks and they shoot silhouette targets. I would think a lifelong conservative republican such as yourself would respect the US Constitution?

I’m 100% comfortable with my understanding of what a well regulated militia means for the regulation of access to and usage of firearms.

And yup I also believe in the free enterprise system to meet consumer demand.

[cradleandshoot]

And back into the weeds we go. Fair enough. Can't say I appreciate a gun industry shill reference. I identify more as a "law abiding citizen who believes in the Federal Democratic Republic that is the USA". Pretty simple for me. And I am fine with what I see in the mirror each morning. The numbers pertinent to my personal ownership rights and beliefs regarding AR-15 sporting rifles - the ones available to law abiding citizens who pass the requirements in place by the Federal government to purchase and own such a rifle - are the foundational guideline I choose in making the informed choice utilizing the research I've conducted that I'm comfortable and confident in choosing: 44 million AR's owned by 25 million citizens with approximately 50 utilized criminally in the commission of Mass Public Shootings.

I am sorry that the image of some yahoo shooting up public lands is what you conjure up when I referred to that. There are strict guidelines for where and how one can utilize public lands for a legal and accepted recreational purpose. Stop in some day at your nearest US Forest Service office and speak to the head ranger. He or she can provide you with information which might help alter the image you conjured up.

I generally speaking try to keep away from internet forums. I found this one interesting, and felt like I could productively share and provide insights into what are generally differing viewpoint vectors on the topics under discussion here than most posters hold. I had hoped that would be welcome. Hope fades. Be well.

JFTR, I'm on record many times as saying thank god we don't have a gun problem in this country, otherwise the population would be half of what it is. The vast, with a capital V, of gun owners are responsible gun owners who are not, and likely never will be, part of the "problem". The numbers bear that out.
"Image of some yahoo shooting up public land"? Privately owned farms, at least here in NY, are agriculturally zoned areas where there really are few laws regarding this subject. Want to have a monster bon fire? No problem there. Want to shoot and blow up stuff? No problem there either. Lot of private properties where this is acceptable and legal (including the thirty-pack). Never known anyone to go on public property to "raise hell" with their weapons, know an awful lot who do it on their private properties though.
Very fun stuff, btw.

Yup, and lots of such land could be utilized for the well regulated gun ranges I describe. Won't be able to do the 30 pack though.

Nice idea in theory, when you slip back to reality doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of ever happening. You can keep dreaming. Where do these "well regulated" rifle ranges come from?? There are probably 10s of millions of AR-15 owners that don't want diddly squat to do with well regulated rifle ranges. The "well regulated" part is the fly in the ointment. You think these people want "well regulated" ? What they want as law abiding, tax paying citizens is to be left alone to exercise their rights granted to them under the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution. You shoot ducks and they shoot silhouette targets. I would think a lifelong conservative republican such as yourself would respect the US Constitution?

I’m 100% comfortable with my understanding of what a well regulated militia means for the regulation of access to and usage of firearms.

And yup I also believe in the free enterprise system to meet consumer demand.

Too bad the founding fathers never defined more clearly what they meant by a well regulated militia. In the attempt to regulate firearms common sense gets lost in the process. Do you think Gov. Hochuls background check for purchasing ammo is an example of well regulated or just plain dumb?
No clarification needed for " the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" it is about as straightforward as you can get. The definition of infringed has no ambiguity in it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Touche! Good flick. I like the fantasy/horror while also being a think piece blend. Highly recommended for trolls and non-trolls alike. If we could all just get along.

Here's a oldie but goodie you might relate to (Gaslight / 1944):

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036855/

On my DVR