The Nation's Financial Condition

[Farfromgeneva]

Can get a very limited free Moodys account that does provide some info and would open a person up to their webinars and related such as this one later in Nov:

https://events.moodys.com/sovereign-deep-dive-2324-usa

Sovereign credit implications of declining debt affordability and increased political polarization

Long-term pressures have continued to build on the US sovereign credit profile due to the steady weakening of the federal government’s fiscal position and gradual erosion of US institutional strength. The more recent surge in Treasury borrowing costs and deepening political divisions within Congress exacerbates these pressures and increases the urgency of a fiscal policy response that would help arrest the decline in US fiscal strength.
What impact will higher interest rates have on US debt affordability and fiscal strength over the next decade?
How does Moody’s assess the quality of institutions, governance and domestic political risk in the US?
What developments could change Moody’s outlook on the US’s Aaa sovereign rating?

[MDlaxfan76]

The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

What kind of cheese goes with IRS incompetence?? I'm guessing a nice stinky limberger with a glass of ripple would go nicely. FTR since your clueless right now a Fan is also a big advocate of a flat tax. What bothers you so much about a flat tax?? Does the fair part upset your apple cart?? FTR MD your confusing a rant by myself with one of your mindless diatribes about WNC. I guess your rants have merit and mine don't. Got it kiddo? I really hope some day the IRS crawls up your ass and resides there for an extended period of time. Couldn't happen to a more deserving person. Maybe if the IRS sends you a letter they will remember to put your house # on it.
Amazing that Americans know and understand the IRS is not user friendly to the people they are suppose to serve. I know I'm not as smart and refined as you. How come no one from either party does a god damn thing to address the shortcomings ingrained in the IRS and their insensitivity to the American people? The answer is easy enough for even a dumb guy like me. The IRS doesn't give 2 figs about the American people. If they did they would answer their effing phones in a reasonable amount of time. Why bother if they don't care?

Let's just say that if I had an issue with the IRS it wouldn't be over $200.
Thankfully, I personally have not had any issues with the IRS in over 30 years, did go through an 'audit' in my late '20's but no actual issues. Staying clean I believe helps, but I agree that if you have a question with the IRS its hard to find anyone who can help. I've watched family members deal with issues and it ain't fun.

I shared with the thread some details/links of how badly underfunded and understaffed the IRS has been for for the past 20 years, especially the last decade. I can't help you understand if you don't bother to read and just want to whine instead.

As to flat tax, as I said, devil's in the details...what one person means is not necessarily what another means. I don't think we'll see anything close in the US in our lifetimes, so I'm not giving it a lot of heavy consideration, but I've heard the arguments back and forth and don't find the notion so compelling that I think it will become what happens because the merits are so obvious that the people demand it.

But can I imagine a system simpler, more transparent and fairer than out current one? Sure.

But let me note that I don't have an ideological issue with a progressive tax system in which the truly rich pay a higher rate than those barely making ends meet. I'm cool with the notion that I should pay a higher rate than the large majority of Americans, including you, cradle. And I ain't among the "truly rich" much as I'd like to be...of course, that's a matter of perspective. But paying a higher rate is fine with me because I think the system in which I live and benefit from is worth paying for, worth defending.

As a conservative, I simply want those dollars spent as efficiently as possible to achieve the maximum societal benefit over the long haul. As a conservative, I don't trust all actors to be honest and cooperative at all times, so I want a strong national defense, positive diplomacy around the world (encouraging this "system" I benefit from to endure and expand its benefits to more people), and a strong rule of law both domestically and internationally. That includes smart regulation, 'rules of the road', clear 'fences' and enforcement of same, again domestically and internationally. Again, as a conservative I recognize the law of unintended consequences, so I want care and consideration and continuous reevaluation of specific policies and actions rather than autocratic decision processes.

[cradleandshoot]

The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

What kind of cheese goes with IRS incompetence?? I'm guessing a nice stinky limberger with a glass of ripple would go nicely. FTR since your clueless right now a Fan is also a big advocate of a flat tax. What bothers you so much about a flat tax?? Does the fair part upset your apple cart?? FTR MD your confusing a rant by myself with one of your mindless diatribes about WNC. I guess your rants have merit and mine don't. Got it kiddo? I really hope some day the IRS crawls up your ass and resides there for an extended period of time. Couldn't happen to a more deserving person. Maybe if the IRS sends you a letter they will remember to put your house # on it.
Amazing that Americans know and understand the IRS is not user friendly to the people they are suppose to serve. I know I'm not as smart and refined as you. How come no one from either party does a god damn thing to address the shortcomings ingrained in the IRS and their insensitivity to the American people? The answer is easy enough for even a dumb guy like me. The IRS doesn't give 2 figs about the American people. If they did they would answer their effing phones in a reasonable amount of time. Why bother if they don't care?

Let's just say that if I had an issue with the IRS it wouldn't be over $200.
Thankfully, I personally have not had any issues with the IRS in over 30 years, did go through an 'audit' in my late '20's but no actual issues. Staying clean I believe helps, but I agree that if you have a question with the IRS its hard to find anyone who can help. I've watched family members deal with issues and it ain't fun.

I shared with the thread some details/links of how badly underfunded and understaffed the IRS has been for for the past 20 years, especially the last decade. I can't help you understand if you don't bother to read and just want to whine instead.

As to flat tax, as I said, devil's in the details...what one person means is not necessarily what another means. I don't think we'll see anything close in the US in our lifetimes, so I'm not giving it a lot of heavy consideration, but I've heard the arguments back and forth and don't find the notion so compelling that I think it will become what happens because the merits are so obvious that the people demand it.

But can I imagine a system simpler, more transparent and fairer than out current one? Sure.

But let me note that I don't have an ideological issue with a progressive tax system in which the truly rich pay a higher rate than those barely making ends meet. I'm cool with the notion that I should pay a higher rate than the large majority of Americans, including you, cradle. And I ain't among the "truly rich" much as I'd like to be...of course, that's a matter of perspective. But paying a higher rate is fine with me because I think the system in which I live and benefit from is worth paying for, worth defending.

As a conservative, I simply want those dollars spent as efficiently as possible to achieve the maximum societal benefit over the long haul. As a conservative, I don't trust all actors to be honest and cooperative at all times, so I want a strong national defense, positive diplomacy around the world (encouraging this "system" I benefit from to endure and expand its benefits to more people), and a strong rule of law both domestically and internationally. That includes smart regulation, 'rules of the road', clear 'fences' and enforcement of same, again domestically and internationally. Again, as a conservative I recognize the law of unintended consequences, so I want care and consideration and continuous reevaluation of specific policies and actions rather than autocratic decision processes.

Thank you for those comments. As that old cliche goes... it wasnt about the money it was about the principle involved. The original notice, when we finally received it was for almost 10 thousand dollars. I suppose if the geniuses at the IRS had included our house number on the notices they sent this issue could have been dealt with sooner. Here is a fact you probably already know. When the IRS thinks you are ignoring them they tend to get very testy. I can't even recall how many hours I spent on the phone, on hold with the IRS to deal with this. My wife and I turned it over to our tax preparer. He also charged us billable hours for his time spent waiting on hold. The point is MD the mistake was made by the IRS not understanding this rollover was not a distribution of cash. When it was all said and done the IRS shorted us over 200 dollars of OUR money. You don't think my wife and I being cheated out of 200 dollars of our money is a big deal. I guess your so wealthy that 200 dollars is nothing more than pocket change to you? FTR our tax guy could have gotten us our 200 dollars back if we were willing to pay him to wait on the phone with the IRS again. So spend 300 to get back 200. I did the math and the numbers didn't work.

[MDlaxfan76]

The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

What kind of cheese goes with IRS incompetence?? I'm guessing a nice stinky limberger with a glass of ripple would go nicely. FTR since your clueless right now a Fan is also a big advocate of a flat tax. What bothers you so much about a flat tax?? Does the fair part upset your apple cart?? FTR MD your confusing a rant by myself with one of your mindless diatribes about WNC. I guess your rants have merit and mine don't. Got it kiddo? I really hope some day the IRS crawls up your ass and resides there for an extended period of time. Couldn't happen to a more deserving person. Maybe if the IRS sends you a letter they will remember to put your house # on it.
Amazing that Americans know and understand the IRS is not user friendly to the people they are suppose to serve. I know I'm not as smart and refined as you. How come no one from either party does a god damn thing to address the shortcomings ingrained in the IRS and their insensitivity to the American people? The answer is easy enough for even a dumb guy like me. The IRS doesn't give 2 figs about the American people. If they did they would answer their effing phones in a reasonable amount of time. Why bother if they don't care?

Let's just say that if I had an issue with the IRS it wouldn't be over $200.
Thankfully, I personally have not had any issues with the IRS in over 30 years, did go through an 'audit' in my late '20's but no actual issues. Staying clean I believe helps, but I agree that if you have a question with the IRS its hard to find anyone who can help. I've watched family members deal with issues and it ain't fun.

I shared with the thread some details/links of how badly underfunded and understaffed the IRS has been for for the past 20 years, especially the last decade. I can't help you understand if you don't bother to read and just want to whine instead.

As to flat tax, as I said, devil's in the details...what one person means is not necessarily what another means. I don't think we'll see anything close in the US in our lifetimes, so I'm not giving it a lot of heavy consideration, but I've heard the arguments back and forth and don't find the notion so compelling that I think it will become what happens because the merits are so obvious that the people demand it.

But can I imagine a system simpler, more transparent and fairer than out current one? Sure.

But let me note that I don't have an ideological issue with a progressive tax system in which the truly rich pay a higher rate than those barely making ends meet. I'm cool with the notion that I should pay a higher rate than the large majority of Americans, including you, cradle. And I ain't among the "truly rich" much as I'd like to be...of course, that's a matter of perspective. But paying a higher rate is fine with me because I think the system in which I live and benefit from is worth paying for, worth defending.

As a conservative, I simply want those dollars spent as efficiently as possible to achieve the maximum societal benefit over the long haul. As a conservative, I don't trust all actors to be honest and cooperative at all times, so I want a strong national defense, positive diplomacy around the world (encouraging this "system" I benefit from to endure and expand its benefits to more people), and a strong rule of law both domestically and internationally. That includes smart regulation, 'rules of the road', clear 'fences' and enforcement of same, again domestically and internationally. Again, as a conservative I recognize the law of unintended consequences, so I want care and consideration and continuous reevaluation of specific policies and actions rather than autocratic decision processes.

Thank you for those comments. As that old cliche goes... it wasnt about the money it was about the principle involved. The original notice, when we finally received it was for almost 10 thousand dollars. I suppose if the geniuses at the IRS had included our house number on the notices they sent this issue could have been dealt with sooner. Here is a fact you probably already know. When the IRS thinks you are ignoring them they tend to get very testy. I can't even recall how many hours I spent on the phone, on hold with the IRS to deal with this. My wife and I turned it over to our tax preparer. He also charged us billable hours for his time spent waiting on hold. The point is MD the mistake was made by the IRS not understanding this rollover was not a distribution of cash. When it was all said and done the IRS shorted us over 200 dollars of OUR money. You don't think my wife and I being cheated out of 200 dollars of our money is a big deal. I guess your so wealthy that 200 dollars is nothing more than pocket change to you? FTR our tax guy could have gotten us our 200 dollars back if we were willing to pay him to wait on the phone with the IRS again. So spend 300 to get back 200. I did the math and the numbers didn't work.

$10,000 is serious money in my world, glad you prevailed. I take seriously $200, but I wouldn't go to war with the IRS over it.

Yes, a mistake, whether your own or theirs, is a pain in the neck to have to deal with...again, they need way more tech and staffing, both. But the tech updated would go a huge way to making it easier on tax payers.

[cradleandshoot]

The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

What kind of cheese goes with IRS incompetence?? I'm guessing a nice stinky limberger with a glass of ripple would go nicely. FTR since your clueless right now a Fan is also a big advocate of a flat tax. What bothers you so much about a flat tax?? Does the fair part upset your apple cart?? FTR MD your confusing a rant by myself with one of your mindless diatribes about WNC. I guess your rants have merit and mine don't. Got it kiddo? I really hope some day the IRS crawls up your ass and resides there for an extended period of time. Couldn't happen to a more deserving person. Maybe if the IRS sends you a letter they will remember to put your house # on it.
Amazing that Americans know and understand the IRS is not user friendly to the people they are suppose to serve. I know I'm not as smart and refined as you. How come no one from either party does a god damn thing to address the shortcomings ingrained in the IRS and their insensitivity to the American people? The answer is easy enough for even a dumb guy like me. The IRS doesn't give 2 figs about the American people. If they did they would answer their effing phones in a reasonable amount of time. Why bother if they don't care?

Let's just say that if I had an issue with the IRS it wouldn't be over $200.
Thankfully, I personally have not had any issues with the IRS in over 30 years, did go through an 'audit' in my late '20's but no actual issues. Staying clean I believe helps, but I agree that if you have a question with the IRS its hard to find anyone who can help. I've watched family members deal with issues and it ain't fun.

I shared with the thread some details/links of how badly underfunded and understaffed the IRS has been for for the past 20 years, especially the last decade. I can't help you understand if you don't bother to read and just want to whine instead.

As to flat tax, as I said, devil's in the details...what one person means is not necessarily what another means. I don't think we'll see anything close in the US in our lifetimes, so I'm not giving it a lot of heavy consideration, but I've heard the arguments back and forth and don't find the notion so compelling that I think it will become what happens because the merits are so obvious that the people demand it.

But can I imagine a system simpler, more transparent and fairer than out current one? Sure.

But let me note that I don't have an ideological issue with a progressive tax system in which the truly rich pay a higher rate than those barely making ends meet. I'm cool with the notion that I should pay a higher rate than the large majority of Americans, including you, cradle. And I ain't among the "truly rich" much as I'd like to be...of course, that's a matter of perspective. But paying a higher rate is fine with me because I think the system in which I live and benefit from is worth paying for, worth defending.

As a conservative, I simply want those dollars spent as efficiently as possible to achieve the maximum societal benefit over the long haul. As a conservative, I don't trust all actors to be honest and cooperative at all times, so I want a strong national defense, positive diplomacy around the world (encouraging this "system" I benefit from to endure and expand its benefits to more people), and a strong rule of law both domestically and internationally. That includes smart regulation, 'rules of the road', clear 'fences' and enforcement of same, again domestically and internationally. Again, as a conservative I recognize the law of unintended consequences, so I want care and consideration and continuous reevaluation of specific policies and actions rather than autocratic decision processes.

Thank you for those comments. As that old cliche goes... it wasnt about the money it was about the principle involved. The original notice, when we finally received it was for almost 10 thousand dollars. I suppose if the geniuses at the IRS had included our house number on the notices they sent this issue could have been dealt with sooner. Here is a fact you probably already know. When the IRS thinks you are ignoring them they tend to get very testy. I can't even recall how many hours I spent on the phone, on hold with the IRS to deal with this. My wife and I turned it over to our tax preparer. He also charged us billable hours for his time spent waiting on hold. The point is MD the mistake was made by the IRS not understanding this rollover was not a distribution of cash. When it was all said and done the IRS shorted us over 200 dollars of OUR money. You don't think my wife and I being cheated out of 200 dollars of our money is a big deal. I guess your so wealthy that 200 dollars is nothing more than pocket change to you? FTR our tax guy could have gotten us our 200 dollars back if we were willing to pay him to wait on the phone with the IRS again. So spend 300 to get back 200. I did the math and the numbers didn't work.

$10,000 is serious money in my world, glad you prevailed. I take seriously $200, but I wouldn't go to war with the IRS over it.

Yes, a mistake, whether your own or theirs, is a pain in the neck to have to deal with...again, they need way more tech and staffing, both. But the tech updated would go a huge way to making it easier on tax payers.

I believe the IRS recently hired 80,000 plus new agents. Hopefully, and I'm highly sceptical that some of those folks will be answering the phones. The impression my wife and I both felt was the IRS is either incompetent or they just don't care. I lean towards the later because nobody holds the IRS accountable for anything they do.

[MDlaxfan76]

The CBO says the GOP House's Israel aid bill is not offset at all. It will, instead, add $12.5B to the deficit in the next decade. Cuts to IRS will decrease revenue by $26.7B. They are clowns.

Who really cares about spending 10 billion here or 20 billion there? The cost of the nations debt is closing in on 1 trillion dollars a year. 10 or 20 billion being spent is pretty much chump change. Does anyone in DC really care about spending anymore counselor?? We spend 800 billion a year on defense and the Navy decommissions ships that are 10 years old because they are not mission capable. Is anyone ever held accountable for this nonsense?? What about all the grifting done to steal taxpayer money incurred during COVID?? I'm still waiting for the congressional committee to be established to hold someone in government accountable for that theft of taxpayer dollars. Silly me, could you possibly imagine Congress being allowed to investigate their own stupidity?

cradle, take a moment and actually think through what the MAGA House is proposing and tell us what you think of that proposal.

In simple terms, they are proposing to cut funding for the IRS. Not spend, cut. However, that "cut" will result in adding $12.5B to the deficit rather than reducing it by the amount of the cut (which was to supposedly offset emergency support for Israel).

Focus on just this proposal for a moment. And if you want, ruminate on who the MAGA House is trying to benefit with this "cut". People like you? Or billionaires?

Then go ahead and rant about Congress' multiple other perfidies.

I'd love to know how they came up with the 26billion over a decade number.....another failed model? Or a simple math division of IRS employees vs tax revenue? I'm not discounting they are correct, just seems like same side arguing and justifying more cash in their coffers. https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/02/politics ... 10%20years.

keeping it real simple, if you do fewer audits of tax cheats you don't collect those revenues and you encourage more people to cheat without fear of being caught.

They've analyzed how many fewer people the IRS would have to do the audits, estimated the lost revenue on that basis. Not terribly complicated, quite predictable. Could they be off by a 10%? Sure, either direction.

But what is not measured is that this will also further degrade services for the little guy who simply has some sort of question on what line to fill something in, challenge a tax calculation, etc. Basic customer service, which the IRS is already notoriously grossly understaffed to address as it is. Can't spend on the technology upgrades to make service easier, more seamless, and transparent...and secure. Insufficient productivity enhancement.

But there is a cost to audits and actions that are incorrect or superfluous. Imagine 50 empowered Brooklyn’s. The cost of the friction and all the additional dollars spent on attorneys and accountants to manage that issue is potentially significant so that has to be accounted for in the model and most likely it’s close to neutral when you factor the externalities of increase enforcement. Then it becomes a debate on who will generated a higher velocity of those dollars, Govt or the private sector.

Not saying always private sector but the cost of externalities created has to be honestly and seriously evaluated as well. I don’t trust that’s being done appropriately here.

yes, without reservation, I wouldn't want a bunch of "Brooklyns" in charge!

And sure, some audits undoubtedly produce a 'dry well', they don't uncover issues. and that's a pain...but made worse if there isn't enough manpower to actually meet with you and discuss the issues that triggered the audit in the first place.

The IRS is grossly understaffed with the kinds of personnel needed to handle sophisticated tax return audits. The personnel aren't cheap and they don't grow on trees, but if you're badly outgunned by rich tax cheats, you're gonna fail to get to them at all. Easier to go after less sophisticated errors (and cheats) with only the occasional high profile case brought to try to discourage everybody else.

This, IMO, is why Trump was able to get away with tax cheating for multiple decades (see NYT detailed reporting) now beyond the statute of limitations. His returns were massive, purposely complicated to be intimidating, with huge effort on tax avoidance whether legal or illegal.

Trump says "everyone does it". And, he's probably right that many super rich people make it very hard for the IRS to tell what they should really be paying...some by the book legally, some taking advantage and going beyond. And some, like Trump, way beyond.

But gotta audit them, a huge effort, to find out who is who...and not be outgunned in sheer manpower.

The good news is that audits of the super rich pay huge dividends.

I jsut went through a debacle with IRS two years ago. They don't even answer the phone. I had to google all the numbers you had to press just to try and get into a queue....painful is an understatement.

Indeed.
For someone who's made an honest mistake (or they have!) and just wants to figure out how to correct it, it should be way, way easier!

The technology is way, way behind, and staffing is insufficient relative to huge increase in volume over the decades. Better tech would improve matters, but man I hate automated phone systems!!

News flash MD. There is NO remedy for the average Joe/Betty taxpayer to correct a mistake by the IRS. The IRS effed up my wifes 401K rollover and considered it a distribution of cash. That was our first experience into the land of IRS stupidity. We were guilty until proven innocent. Our tax guy verified our return was spot on. The IRS tried to send us letters regarding the issue. The effing geniuses sent them to our street but neglected to put a house # on the letter. If it wasn't for our letter carrier knowing our name and where we live the letter would never have arrived. When it was all said and done and our tax preparer spent hours on the phone with the IRS they admitted we didn't screw up but never admitted they made a mistake. My wife and I were still ripped off by the IRS for over 200 dollars. Our tax preparer laid it all out for my wife and I plain and simple. He could get us our money back if we were willing to spend the money it would take to hash it out with the IRS. Anybody on this forum want to explain to me how the IRS is taxpayer friendly? I bet even Hunter Biden might agree with that.In Hunters case he deliberately tried to cheat the taxpayers and the US government. Imagine the frustration if you played by the rules and still had the IRS eff you in the ass. You think folks like myself are going to shed a tear at budget being cut? The government makes the tax system and its disconnect with the people who actually pay taxes as complicated as possible. There are a lot of CPA tax preparers that make a fine living out of that built in complexity. A flat tax would eliminate that would it not??

want some cheese with that whine?

You've made the identical rant multiple times over the years, despite no one here disagreeing with you that the IRS ain't "taxpayer friendly".

As to a flat tax, devil's in the details.

What kind of cheese goes with IRS incompetence?? I'm guessing a nice stinky limberger with a glass of ripple would go nicely. FTR since your clueless right now a Fan is also a big advocate of a flat tax. What bothers you so much about a flat tax?? Does the fair part upset your apple cart?? FTR MD your confusing a rant by myself with one of your mindless diatribes about WNC. I guess your rants have merit and mine don't. Got it kiddo? I really hope some day the IRS crawls up your ass and resides there for an extended period of time. Couldn't happen to a more deserving person. Maybe if the IRS sends you a letter they will remember to put your house # on it.
Amazing that Americans know and understand the IRS is not user friendly to the people they are suppose to serve. I know I'm not as smart and refined as you. How come no one from either party does a god damn thing to address the shortcomings ingrained in the IRS and their insensitivity to the American people? The answer is easy enough for even a dumb guy like me. The IRS doesn't give 2 figs about the American people. If they did they would answer their effing phones in a reasonable amount of time. Why bother if they don't care?

Let's just say that if I had an issue with the IRS it wouldn't be over $200.
Thankfully, I personally have not had any issues with the IRS in over 30 years, did go through an 'audit' in my late '20's but no actual issues. Staying clean I believe helps, but I agree that if you have a question with the IRS its hard to find anyone who can help. I've watched family members deal with issues and it ain't fun.

I shared with the thread some details/links of how badly underfunded and understaffed the IRS has been for for the past 20 years, especially the last decade. I can't help you understand if you don't bother to read and just want to whine instead.

As to flat tax, as I said, devil's in the details...what one person means is not necessarily what another means. I don't think we'll see anything close in the US in our lifetimes, so I'm not giving it a lot of heavy consideration, but I've heard the arguments back and forth and don't find the notion so compelling that I think it will become what happens because the merits are so obvious that the people demand it.

But can I imagine a system simpler, more transparent and fairer than out current one? Sure.

But let me note that I don't have an ideological issue with a progressive tax system in which the truly rich pay a higher rate than those barely making ends meet. I'm cool with the notion that I should pay a higher rate than the large majority of Americans, including you, cradle. And I ain't among the "truly rich" much as I'd like to be...of course, that's a matter of perspective. But paying a higher rate is fine with me because I think the system in which I live and benefit from is worth paying for, worth defending.

As a conservative, I simply want those dollars spent as efficiently as possible to achieve the maximum societal benefit over the long haul. As a conservative, I don't trust all actors to be honest and cooperative at all times, so I want a strong national defense, positive diplomacy around the world (encouraging this "system" I benefit from to endure and expand its benefits to more people), and a strong rule of law both domestically and internationally. That includes smart regulation, 'rules of the road', clear 'fences' and enforcement of same, again domestically and internationally. Again, as a conservative I recognize the law of unintended consequences, so I want care and consideration and continuous reevaluation of specific policies and actions rather than autocratic decision processes.

Thank you for those comments. As that old cliche goes... it wasnt about the money it was about the principle involved. The original notice, when we finally received it was for almost 10 thousand dollars. I suppose if the geniuses at the IRS had included our house number on the notices they sent this issue could have been dealt with sooner. Here is a fact you probably already know. When the IRS thinks you are ignoring them they tend to get very testy. I can't even recall how many hours I spent on the phone, on hold with the IRS to deal with this. My wife and I turned it over to our tax preparer. He also charged us billable hours for his time spent waiting on hold. The point is MD the mistake was made by the IRS not understanding this rollover was not a distribution of cash. When it was all said and done the IRS shorted us over 200 dollars of OUR money. You don't think my wife and I being cheated out of 200 dollars of our money is a big deal. I guess your so wealthy that 200 dollars is nothing more than pocket change to you? FTR our tax guy could have gotten us our 200 dollars back if we were willing to pay him to wait on the phone with the IRS again. So spend 300 to get back 200. I did the math and the numbers didn't work.

$10,000 is serious money in my world, glad you prevailed. I take seriously $200, but I wouldn't go to war with the IRS over it.

Yes, a mistake, whether your own or theirs, is a pain in the neck to have to deal with...again, they need way more tech and staffing, both. But the tech updated would go a huge way to making it easier on tax payers.

I believe the IRS recently hired 80,000 plus new agents. Hopefully, and I'm highly sceptical that some of those folks will be answering the phones. The impression my wife and I both felt was the IRS is either incompetent or they just don't care. I lean towards the later because nobody holds the IRS accountable for anything they do.

yeah, that's misinformation: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/irs-87000-new-agents/

There was a request for $80 billion, which would enable the IRS to hire 87,000 new agents by 2031...but most of those would be replacements for current employees retiring. The budget request was cut back to $59 B in the deal last spring between the House and White House.

If you take a look at the links I'd prior provided, you'll see that the IRS workforce has shrunk over the last two decades, despite workload increasing.

It's no wonder that telephones don't get answered...

[Farfromgeneva]

What's News

Nora Eckert

A Honda spokesman confirmed the details of the memo Friday. Since 2021, Honda has added more than 10 new benefits and programs, including child-care reimbursement and student-loan repayment, he said. The spokesman declined to say how much production employees earn currently.

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In the memo, Honda said worker compensation is based on achieving competitive pay, and company leaders will continue to monitor the market conditions to attract and retain employees.

The move by Honda, an automaker whose U.S. factories aren’t unionized, shows how quickly the historic wins achieved by the UAW in negotiating new labor contracts with the Detroit automakers are rippling throughout the car business.

President Biden celebrated the new labor contracts between the United Auto Workers union and the three major car companies while visiting an auto plant in Belvidere, Ill. Photo: Olivier Douliery/AFP/Getty Images
Honda operates several manufacturing facilities in the U.S., including plants in Ohio, Alabama and Indiana, employing at least 22,000 manufacturing workers.

Earlier this month, Toyota Motor also raised wages for most U.S. factory employees by 9% and shortened the time it takes to reach top pay, saying it regularly assesses the competition to ensure its pay and benefits remain in line with the broader industry.

In this round of bargaining, the UAW won not only a 25% base wage increase for its members at GM, Ford and Stellantis, but also cost-of-living increases, improved retiree benefits and the right to strike over plant closures.

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These union workers also secured a shorter, three-year progression to a top pay of $42 an hour, down from the previous eight years.

UAW-represented workers at all three car companies are currently voting on the tentative agreements, a process that could take a few weeks. The deals must be approved by a simple majority to be ratified.

UAW President Shawn Fain has made clear that he plans to leverage these victories to try to organize the nonunion plants owned by the foreign car companies.

“When we return to the bargaining table in 2028, it won’t just be with the Big Three, but with the Big Five or Big Six,” Fain said in a recent video address.

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The union has made several unsuccessful attempts in the past to organize these factory workers, including twice trying to win over employees at
Volkswagen
’s plant in Chattanooga, Tenn. The UAW lost its most recent effort in 2019 by a few dozen votes.

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What’s News

Catch up on the headlines, understand the news and make better decisions, free in your inbox daily. Enjoy a free article in every edition.

Executives at the foreign car companies have closely monitored union negotiations in Detroit during the strike, concerned it might eventually impact their business in a tight labor market.

These automakers have long spent less on labor costs, a gap that auto executives in Detroit have highlighted as putting their operations at a competitive disadvantage.

Fain, the 55-year-old union leader, said Toyota’s wage bump was a sign that they knew the union was “coming for them.”

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A Toyota spokesman said that the decision to unionize ultimately will be made by its workers and that the company has “a history of stable employment and income for our employees.”

In addition to Asian automakers such as Honda and Toyota, electric-vehicle leader
Tesla
is also a potential target for a UAW organizing campaign.

Some employees at the company’s plant in Fremont, Calif., sought to organize several years ago with the help of the UAW. Tesla took steps to hinder that effort, including “coercively interrogating” employees and threatening them with the loss of stock options, moves that violated U.S. labor law, the National Labor Relations Board ruled.

Write to Nora Eckert at [email protected]

UAW’s Unprecedented Strike

Impact of the union’s work stoppage at GM, Ford and Stellantis

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[OCanada]

WSJ today

https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/re ... g-8ffa8e47

I would be amiss if i did not mention the GOP will oppose reforms to derisk the financial system by raising bank capital requirements. The banking lobby is very strong and there is an election next year. Donations. They will say it is bcs they are protecting the consumer. Not true. In 2009 the afequately adequately capitalized banking system was revealed. The Bush administration was slow to respond to the issue. The consumer and economy were hosed. It was the federal government that prevented a total disaster. Today’s GOp clowns would twiddle their sums.

[MDlaxfan76]

inflation cooling: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/economy/ ... index.html

[youthathletics]

inflation cooling: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/economy/ ... index.html

It has gotten insane out here. I watched a video where a person showed the prices for staple foods at a costco a year or so ago vs now and they have gone up close to 100%, even more in some instances.

[PizzaSnake]

inflation cooling: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/economy/ ... index.html

It has gotten insane out here. I watched a video where a person showed the prices for staple foods at a costco a year or so ago vs now and they have gone up close to 100%, even more in some instances.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/cpi/design.htm

[MDlaxfan76]

inflation cooling: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/economy/ ... index.html

It has gotten insane out here. I watched a video where a person showed the prices for staple foods at a costco a year or so ago vs now and they have gone up close to 100%, even more in some instances.

youth, this is my world.

We track prices at nearly all major grocers and I can assure you that what this guy is claiming is either quite bogus or is not representative of reality other than as cherry picked. Note also that Costco varies what it considers 'loss leaders' in their stores...rotisserie chicken is almost always sold below actual cost, but other 'loss leaders' vary...most grocers do this, though usually with Buy One Get One Free or other coupon/discount offers. (Our meal planning algorithm takes advantage of these offers to recommend the meals made with foods on sale so as to achieve budget targets, etc.)

However, it is certainly true that food inflation has indeed been very high these past two years, though moderating a lot now.

This site tracks pretty well with our data. https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/i ... ed-states/

Try the 5 year range in the graph of this site to see what has happened: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-sta ... -inflation

This is, of course, "rate"...whereas the impacts of multiple years of inflation we feel cumulatively...as consumers we recall prices a few years ago and see today's prices as much higher...but not "up 100%" in a year...nope, not remotely reality... other than specific price shocks on specific goods, eg an avocado crop disaster, etc.

[youthathletics]

inflation cooling: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/economy/ ... index.html

It has gotten insane out here. I watched a video where a person showed the prices for staple foods at a costco a year or so ago vs now and they have gone up close to 100%, even more in some instances.

youth, this is my world.

We track prices at nearly all major grocers and I can assure you that what this guy is claiming is either quite bogus or is not representative of reality other than as cherry picked. Note also that Costco varies what it considers 'loss leaders' in their stores...rotisserie chicken is almost always sold below actual cost, but other 'loss leaders' vary...most grocers do this, though usually with Buy One Get One Free or other coupon/discount offers. (Our meal planning algorithm takes advantage of these offers to recommend the meals made with foods on sale so as to achieve budget targets, etc.)

However, it is certainly true that food inflation has indeed been very high these past two years, though moderating a lot now.

This site tracks pretty well with our data. https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/i ... ed-states/

Try the 5 year range in the graph of this site to see what has happened: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-sta ... -inflation

This is, of course, "rate"...whereas the impacts of multiple years of inflation we feel cumulatively...as consumers we recall prices a few years ago and see today's prices as much higher...but not "up 100%" in a year...nope, not remotely reality... other than specific price shocks on specific goods, eg an avocado crop disaster, etc.

Not arguing, it sure was clear as day there are items up over 100%, some in his clip when you view the price of yesteryear.

I was just listening to a podcast where the Cartels have infiltrated Avocado and Lemon farmers in South America...to the point where they just let them rot to create a high demand, typically around Superbowl Sunday week.

Here is another, where he breaks down saved receipts:

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm not buying YouTube guys.

What I do know is that Costco's stock price has more than doubled in the past 5 years, from $214 to $589.

Revenue has grown from $153B in 2019 to $242B in 2023; gross income from $19.8B to $29.7B.

[MDlaxfan76]

Re avocados: https://procurementtactics.com/avocado-prices/

Mexico (Hass) is the dominant supplier, but increasingly diversified sources.

re eggs, avian flu and higher grain prices: https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/15/business ... el%20costs.

Now coming down fast.

But yes, around the world climate change has been and will be a big driver of food cost inflation (wars hurt too!):
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nvironment

[youthathletics]

I'm not buying YouTube guys.

What I do know is that Costco's stock price has more than doubled in the past 5 years, from $214 to $589.

Revenue has grown from $153B in 2019 to $242B in 2023; gross income from $19.8B to $29.7B.

Do you have any stats that show Revenue growth of of other major Grocer Leaders? We may be arguing for no reason if the others major grocers are also experiencing significant revenue growth. Which would explain that they are capitalizing on the inflation and residuals of cv-19 shutdown.

[MDlaxfan76]

inflation cooling: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/14/economy/ ... index.html

It has gotten insane out here. I watched a video where a person showed the prices for staple foods at a costco a year or so ago vs now and they have gone up close to 100%, even more in some instances.

youth, this is my world.

We track prices at nearly all major grocers and I can assure you that what this guy is claiming is either quite bogus or is not representative of reality other than as cherry picked. Note also that Costco varies what it considers 'loss leaders' in their stores...rotisserie chicken is almost always sold below actual cost, but other 'loss leaders' vary...most grocers do this, though usually with Buy One Get One Free or other coupon/discount offers. (Our meal planning algorithm takes advantage of these offers to recommend the meals made with foods on sale so as to achieve budget targets, etc.)

However, it is certainly true that food inflation has indeed been very high these past two years, though moderating a lot now.

This site tracks pretty well with our data. https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/i ... ed-states/

Try the 5 year range in the graph of this site to see what has happened: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-sta ... -inflation

This is, of course, "rate"...whereas the impacts of multiple years of inflation we feel cumulatively...as consumers we recall prices a few years ago and see today's prices as much higher...but not "up 100%" in a year...nope, not remotely reality... other than specific price shocks on specific goods, eg an avocado crop disaster, etc.

Not arguing, it sure was clear as day there are items up over 100%, some in his clip when you view the price of yesteryear.

I was just listening to a podcast where the Cartels have infiltrated Avocado and Lemon farmers in South America...to the point where they just let them rot to create a high demand, typically around Superbowl Sunday week.

Here is another, where he breaks down saved receipts:

re Costco in specific, this article describes some of the complexities of their pricing, which are decipherable but certainly not transparent. https://www.thekitchn.com/costco-price- ... t-23425352

So, it's entirely possible to cherry pick items bought on sale or clearance at some past point in time with the same or similar item currently not on sale or clearance.

But that ain't "inflation", that's cherry picking.
The same is true about seasonal variations in pricing.
Unless comparing same periods of time of the year, it's simply not valid.

And, of course, there really has been substantial food inflation worldwide, which does add up over multiple years of above average inflation.

The good news here in the US is that we've had lower than worldwide inflation and the current trend line is moderating inflation by quite a lot.

My advice, avoid YouTube attention seekers.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm not buying YouTube guys.

What I do know is that Costco's stock price has more than doubled in the past 5 years, from $214 to $589.

Revenue has grown from $153B in 2019 to $242B in 2023; gross income from $19.8B to $29.7B.

Do you have any stats that show Revenue growth of of other major Grocer Leaders? We may be arguing for no reason if the others major grocers are also experiencing significant revenue growth. Which would explain that they are capitalizing on the inflation and residuals of cv-19 shutdown.

Kroger is up from $121B to $148B in past 5 years.
Walmart is up from $514B to $611B (worldwide), but has been the big winner in the US in online grocery, particularly pickup.
Albertson's is up from $60.5B to $77.6B

Regional grocers:
Publix up from $38B to $54B
Wegmans up from 85B to $146B ('22, 23 not yet reported)

Some grocers are gaining market share, others, particularly smaller regionals, had a big boost during Covid with way, way higher demand dynamics for at home food, but faltering now.

[youthathletics]

I'm not buying YouTube guys.

What I do know is that Costco's stock price has more than doubled in the past 5 years, from $214 to $589.

Revenue has grown from $153B in 2019 to $242B in 2023; gross income from $19.8B to $29.7B.

Do you have any stats that show Revenue growth of of other major Grocer Leaders? We may be arguing for no reason if the others major grocers are also experiencing significant revenue growth. Which would explain that they are capitalizing on the inflation and residuals of cv-19 shutdown.

Kroger is up from $121B to $148B in past 5 years.
Walmart is up from $514B to $611B (worldwide), but has been the big winner in the US in online grocery, particularly pickup.
Albertson's is up from $60.5B to $77.6B

Regional grocers:
Publix up from $38B to $54B
Wegmans up from 85B to $146B ('22, 23 not yet reported)

Some grocers are gaining market share, others, particularly smaller regionals, had a big boost during Covid with waylay higher demand dynamics for at home food, but faltering now.

Thanks for that. So, in your opinion, why such strong growth during an inflationary period....it certainly seems to imply that they also increased their margins to capitalize on inflation. Whereas, places like Home Depot and Lowes are seeing declines. This implies people are picking and choosing where to spend....food vs home improvements or quite possibly food places are screwing us. Bottom, line daily needs and good in the home are really doing damage....and I seriously doubt anyone wants to drop their prices in the food realm to risk lost revenue.

[MDlaxfan76]

I'm not buying YouTube guys.

What I do know is that Costco's stock price has more than doubled in the past 5 years, from $214 to $589.

Revenue has grown from $153B in 2019 to $242B in 2023; gross income from $19.8B to $29.7B.

Do you have any stats that show Revenue growth of of other major Grocer Leaders? We may be arguing for no reason if the others major grocers are also experiencing significant revenue growth. Which would explain that they are capitalizing on the inflation and residuals of cv-19 shutdown.

Kroger is up from $121B to $148B in past 5 years.
Walmart is up from $514B to $611B (worldwide), but has been the big winner in the US in online grocery, particularly pickup.
Albertson's is up from $60.5B to $77.6B

Regional grocers:
Publix up from $38B to $54B
Wegmans up from 85B to $146B ('22, 23 not yet reported)

Some grocers are gaining market share, others, particularly smaller regionals, had a big boost during Covid with waylay higher demand dynamics for at home food, but faltering now.

Thanks for that. So, in your opinion, why such strong growth during an inflationary period....it certainly seems to imply that they also increased their margins to capitalize on inflation. Whereas, places like Home Depot and Lowes are seeing declines. This implies people are picking and choosing where to spend....food vs home improvements or quite possibly food places are screwing us. Bottom, line daily needs and good in the home are really doing damage....and I seriously doubt anyone wants to drop their prices in the food realm to risk lost revenue.

There was a huge increase in demand during Covid for food at home (as opposed to fast food, restaurant, etc); huge boon to grocers. However, this created dramatic shifts in which foods and how they were prepared, processed, packaged, delivered etc, with supply chains badly snarled. Remember all the issues with just getting goods off boats and onto trains or trucks...yes, some price "gouging" (profit taking) during that time as consumers were willing to pay more just to get products...note, this still meant spending less for food than their prior behavior of going out for food. In general, food made at home is 3-5 X less costly relative to eating same food out.

That demand dynamic has shifted back somewhat as Covid fears have eased, but there's also a lot of restaurants that failed that have not yet been replaced.

The overall dynamics are re-adjusting, but it's taking time to re-establish reliable supply chains. And then global warming traumas have been much worse recently...and the war in Ukraine was huge supply issue for most of the world, sending grain prices everywhere higher.

so, complexity.

But, overall, the US food inflation has been less than most of the world and is less now as well.