Hunter Biden Tinfoil issues

[Typical Lax Dad]

I don't know where the amounts they owe rank in the list of tax criminals.

Yes, we all know you don't know. That's a feature of your world view.

So enlighten me. Now significant or insignificant are their unpaid tax liabilities ?

It's OK because everybody's doing it ?

Trump said yesterday that Mar-A-Lago is worth between $1B and $1.5B, but it is "smart" for him to claim to Palm Beach tax authorities that it's worth only its value as a club (and then says its "worth more" as a club than as a residence, huh?). As a club it has limited cash flow, and was valued less than $30 million. That makes Trump "smart".

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

But let's be more conservative, Trump Org valued Mar-A-Lago at $500 million in its statements of Trump's personal worth, trust fund's worth, for business loans, insurance, etc.

If $500 million, more than $5 million unpaid taxes per year.

In 2002, Trump signed a deed restriction limiting the use, in perpetuity, of the property as a club. Not a residence. So, 20 years of paying taxes on a basis much, much lower than claimed for other purposes.

$100 million on most conservative end. $300 million on high end.

From a purely cash cost basis, Trump would be better off taking a beating on the business fraud and sticking with the lower tax assessment. But that wasn't his tactic yesterday.

I think he's going to lose hard on the fraud, indeed it's already been adjudicated as fraud. The argument is now on what the 'damages' were to lenders, etc, predominantly in lesser interest payments than what would have been reasonable had the fraud not occurred. An expert says $168 million....and then there's the punitive damages which can be a multiple of whatever is found as actual damages.

But Trump's tactic opens him up now to being sued for unpaid taxes in Palm Beach County too. So, another $100 - 300 million. That would have been pretty easy to avoid if he'd just said, yeah, the higher #'s were an error, but "I didn't order or intend for fraud to be committed". Gonna lose that one, anyway.

But his lawyers may feel it's better to take whatever tax hit than for Trump to admit to the fraud openly, as that might trigger criminal fraud conviction.

And Trump himself is only really thinking about the election, which is probably his only rational way out of jail, indeed the discussion of declaring the Insurrection Act and martial law at the outset of assuming the Presidency would create a situation in which monies can be quickly restored to his personal coffers in the resultant dictatorial kleptocracy.

That money doesn’t count. Hunter’s situation is far more egregious….and if Trump wants a Kleptocracy, so be it as the voters voted for him and knew it. That’s what we were told when he was in office the last time by Old Salt.

Hunter's situation is far less ambiguous & less open to dispute. He either reported all his earnings & paid income tax on them, or he did not.

Trump's financial gymnastics have nothing to do with Hunter. Trump's financial dealings are being adjudicated.

[NattyBohChamps04]

I like that we're comparing an ex-President and leading presidential candidate and multiple family members who's been found guilty of defrauding a childrens cancer charity, found guilty of rape in a civil trial, found guilty of financial fraud in his other business dealings, fined millions of dollars, found with stolen highly classified documents, tried to overthrow the US government, impeached twice, cheated on multiple spouses, paid hush money to a porn star he cheated with his pregnant wife with, installed his kids and in-laws into his cabinet who weren't qualified on business or security grounds and much more to some dude who isn't in government and did some drugs and made money from nepotism.

We're in a "both sides moment" here huh?

[Farfromgeneva]

I like that we're comparing an ex-President and leading presidential candidate and multiple family members who's been found guilty of defrauding a childrens cancer charity, found guilty of rape in a civil trial, found guilty of financial fraud in his other business dealings, fined millions of dollars, found with stolen highly classified documents, tried to overthrow the US government, impeached twice, cheated on multiple spouses, paid hush money to a porn star he cheated with his pregnant wife with, installed his kids and in-laws into his cabinet who weren't qualified on business or security grounds and much more to some dude who isn't in government and did some drugs and made money from nepotism.

We're in a "both sides moment" here huh?

You forget it’s all a conspiracy by evil liberals. Be never seen so many people so afraid of a bunch of limp wrist es, effete, faux intellectual, avocado toast eating New Yorker pontificating Greenwich village tools as all these hard core “bringing it back to farming and spousal abuse with my slaves good Ole days” attitude.

[MDlaxfan76]

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

...what taxing authority allows the property owner to assess the value of the property for tax purposes ?

Which case against Trump includes charges of tax fraud ?

You conveniently cut the rest of my post.

But to answer your question, every jurisdiction I know of has a property tax appeals process that allows the property owner to submit their argument as to what the valuation should be.

Apparently Trump signed a deed restriction in 2002 that restricts the usage to a club, not a residence. Common practice for valuation of club properties is cash flows generated. Which Trump submitted as his argument for a low valuation. Palm Beach County accepted that argument based upon the valid deed restriction and the cash flows submitted by Trump. Nothing wrong with that...if that's all there was to it.

This is why he thinks he's 'smart'. He spends a great deal of time at his own club, yet operates it as a club so as to both generate some profits AND to avoid taxes that would be due if valued as a residence (it still wouldn't be worth what he's claimed, but that's another matter).

And that's all legal, or would be...except that he can't also righteously claim that the property has hundreds of millions of value for other purposes. (Much less $1-1.5 BILLION in value) As I wrote, he could have stuck with the notion that he'd made a mistake, hadn't been paying attention, his accountants didn't tell him the right thing, whatever BS story...the judge has already ruled it to be fraud based on the hard, cold facts, so that case was already lost...why open up the possibility of an unpaid taxes claim?

If he's going to full throatily now make the argument that the deed restriction isn't real, doesn't actually restrict the property's usage, is essentially a sham, indeed it actually increases the value to a buyer rather than decreases it,(and yes, that was his argument yesterday) then Palm Beach County can open up an unpaid tax case. They haven't done so yet, but perhaps they will do so now. I sure as heck would if I was the tax authority in Palm Beach County. That's serious jack, pays for lots of street lights during Xmas...

Trump's issue is that he's bragging about having pulled one over the tax authorities. He's "smart"...

I shortened your post so there'd be no confusion about what I was addressing.

So why is this being adjudicated in NYC rather than Palm Beach County ?

Please tell me you aren't dense and are just trolling.

Ok...The over reporting of asset value fraud has occurred in NY State. Banks and insurers provided beneficial terms based on this fraud (actually set of frauds over numerous years). The judge has already adjudicated that this fraud occurred and has removed business licenses to operate in NY State.

The case in NY is now in the damages and penalties phase. An expert for the AG's office says Trump and Trump Org received $168 million in excess value through lower interest rates due these overvaluations suggesting lower risk. I haven't look hard at that analysis, but presumably Trump's legal team will try to argue that damages should be less than the expert claims. The judge will decide what he believes and then he'll decide whether and how much to assess for punitive damages. Punitive has two purposes, to dissuade the offender from further offenses and to dissuade other potential offenders from such as well. Trump will undoubtedly appeal, but the argument of bias they are currently claiming is likely to fail miserably on appeal. Their best chance to minimize the economic consequences is to argue that they should be less to this judge...but most of Trump's response so far has been to attack the judge, his staff, the prosecutors, the State of New York, Joe Biden...none of which is likely to earn him favor in the judge's determination.

I raised the tax consequence issue of Trump's testimony under oath this week because he has under oath abandoned the notion that Mar A Lago should be valued much lower, as he'd prior argued to the Palm Beach tax authorities. Frankly, the tax posture of the deed restriction reducing Mar A Lago's value to its cash earning potential had sound basis and precedent. But you gotta stick with that posture if you want the tax benefit of the lower valuation. You can't turn around and argue that the property has a real value 25X, 75X of what you'd claimed to tax authorities should be the assessment. It's one thing for a property to be actually worth on re-sale 50% higher than its prior assessed value, which is an 'oops' for the assessors, but we're talking enormous tax underpayment if the assessors accept Trump's own claims under oath. IMO, reality is probably that the property would trade higher, maybe even double what the assessors had assessed using cash flows, but not 25X.

So, that case would need to be brought in Florida. Trump may well have friends in high places in Florida who will shield him from those unpaid taxes, but if the case can be brought in Palm Beach County, it should be. That County is not GOP dominated.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Trump had some other properties in other jurisdictions which had various deed restrictions that limited their development potential and thus lowered his tax basis, but which he inflated the value for business loans, as if they had much greater development potential. If that's the case, then the inflated values were fraudulent. That fraud can be brought in NYS. But if the local jurisdictions pursue underpaid taxes, they can use Trump's under oath statements now to change their assessments, and perhaps do a look back as well.

But these cases are all weaker than the inflated value case, as the lower valuations based on deed restrictions were actually in the reasonable range. But Trump can't have it both ways...now that he's been caught and hauled into court.

I own 18 acres of land that is in permanent environmental trust, connected to the 3 acres on which my home sits. They provide a beautiful view and are part of a total of 36 acres of permanent conservation, Maryland Environmental Trust, the overall acreage shared with my sister whose 1850's original house is next door. But other than the driveway through my own 18 acres, I can only add a small barn or similar structure, no housing or other development. I can farm it which I do for 12 of the 18 acres, have a lawn and sports field area, etc, forest area, but no development potential, and I have environmental obligations to the two streams that run through it, forest buffer etc. So, our assessed value is way, way lower than if it wasn't in MET. And the resale value will undoubtedly reflect that loss of development potential if I went to sell it.

Much of my sister's land is forest and stream, below the 100 year flood area, and is undevelopable for that reason as well as MET. She shares our view of the Valley.

Trump, on the other hand, went to banks and told them a value as if there were no deed restrictions, no environmental or other practical restrictions, and obtained loans and interest rates based upon those misrepresentations. He ain't dumb, he's dishonest.

[Farfromgeneva]

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

...what taxing authority allows the property owner to assess the value of the property for tax purposes ?

Which case against Trump includes charges of tax fraud ?

You conveniently cut the rest of my post.

But to answer your question, every jurisdiction I know of has a property tax appeals process that allows the property owner to submit their argument as to what the valuation should be.

Apparently Trump signed a deed restriction in 2002 that restricts the usage to a club, not a residence. Common practice for valuation of club properties is cash flows generated. Which Trump submitted as his argument for a low valuation. Palm Beach County accepted that argument based upon the valid deed restriction and the cash flows submitted by Trump. Nothing wrong with that...if that's all there was to it.

This is why he thinks he's 'smart'. He spends a great deal of time at his own club, yet operates it as a club so as to both generate some profits AND to avoid taxes that would be due if valued as a residence (it still wouldn't be worth what he's claimed, but that's another matter).

And that's all legal, or would be...except that he can't also righteously claim that the property has hundreds of millions of value for other purposes. (Much less $1-1.5 BILLION in value) As I wrote, he could have stuck with the notion that he'd made a mistake, hadn't been paying attention, his accountants didn't tell him the right thing, whatever BS story...the judge has already ruled it to be fraud based on the hard, cold facts, so that case was already lost...why open up the possibility of an unpaid taxes claim?

If he's going to full throatily now make the argument that the deed restriction isn't real, doesn't actually restrict the property's usage, is essentially a sham, indeed it actually increases the value to a buyer rather than decreases it,(and yes, that was his argument yesterday) then Palm Beach County can open up an unpaid tax case. They haven't done so yet, but perhaps they will do so now. I sure as heck would if I was the tax authority in Palm Beach County. That's serious jack, pays for lots of street lights during Xmas...

Trump's issue is that he's bragging about having pulled one over the tax authorities. He's "smart"...

I shortened your post so there'd be no confusion about what I was addressing.

So why is this being adjudicated in NYC rather than Palm Beach County ?

Please tell me you aren't dense and are just trolling.

Ok...The over reporting of asset value fraud has occurred in NY State. Banks and insurers provided beneficial terms based on this fraud (actually set of frauds over numerous years). The judge has already adjudicated that this fraud occurred and has removed business licenses to operate in NY State.

The case in NY is now in the damages and penalties phase. An expert for the AG's office says Trump and Trump Org received $168 million in excess value through lower interest rates due these overvaluations suggesting lower risk. I haven't look hard at that analysis, but presumably Trump's legal team will try to argue that damages should be less than the expert claims. The judge will decide what he believes and then he'll decide whether and how much to assess for punitive damages. Punitive has two purposes, to dissuade the offender from further offenses and to dissuade other potential offenders from such as well. Trump will undoubtedly appeal, but the argument of bias they are currently claiming is likely to fail miserably on appeal. Their best chance to minimize the economic consequences is to argue that they should be less to this judge...but most of Trump's response so far has been to attack the judge, his staff, the prosecutors, the State of New York, Joe Biden...none of which is likely to earn him favor in the judge's determination.

I raised the tax consequence issue of Trump's testimony under oath this week because he has under oath abandoned the notion that Mar A Lago should be valued much lower, as he'd prior argued to the Palm Beach tax authorities. Frankly, the tax posture of the deed restriction reducing Mar A Lago's value to its cash earning potential had sound basis and precedent. But you gotta stick with that posture if you want the tax benefit of the lower valuation. You can't turn around and argue that the property has a real value 25X, 75X of what you'd claimed to tax authorities should be the assessment. It's one thing for a property to be actually worth on re-sale 50% higher than its prior assessed value, which is an 'oops' for the assessors, but we're talking enormous tax underpayment if the assessors accept Trump's own claims under oath. IMO, reality is probably that the property would trade higher, maybe even double what the assessors had assessed using cash flows, but not 25X.

So, that case would need to be brought in Florida. Trump may well have friends in high places in Florida who will shield him from those unpaid taxes, but if the case can be brought in Palm Beach County, it should be. That County is not GOP dominated.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Trump had some other properties in other jurisdictions which had various deed restrictions that limited their development potential and thus lowered his tax basis, but which he inflated the value for business loans, as if they had much greater development potential. If that's the case, then the inflated values were fraudulent. That fraud can be brought in NYS. But if the local jurisdictions pursue underpaid taxes, they can use Trump's under oath statements now to change their assessments, and perhaps do a look back as well.

But these cases are all weaker than the inflated value case, as the lower valuations based on deed restrictions were actually in the reasonable range. But Trump can't have it both ways...now that he's been caught and hauled into court.

I own 18 acres of land that is in permanent environmental trust, connected to the 3 acres on which my home sits. They provide a beautiful view and are part of a total of 36 acres of permanent conservation, Maryland Environmental Trust, the overall acreage shared with my sister whose 1850's original house is next door. But other than the driveway through my own 18 acres, I can only add a small barn or similar structure, no housing or other development. I can farm it which I do for 12 of the 18 acres, have a lawn and sports field area, etc, forest area, but no development potential, and I have environmental obligations to the two streams that run through it, forest buffer etc. So, our assessed value is way, way lower than if it wasn't in MET. And the resale value will undoubtedly reflect that loss of development potential if I went to sell it.

Much of my sister's land is forest and stream, below the 100 year flood area, and is undevelopable for that reason as well as MET. She shares our view of the Valley.

Trump, on the other hand, went to banks and told them a value as if there were no deed restrictions, no environmental or other practical restrictions, and obtained loans and interest rates based upon those misrepresentations. He ain't dumb, he's dishonest.

Most folks get a fat appraisal valuation for the undevelopable land like so many that use conservation easement tax credits. I find that evaluation the appriasers do to be beyond ludicrously wrong and really illegal, but they are so balls deep into it they don't care. Land value is derived from the present value of future cash flows net of expenditures (development and related). If a property is in a 100yr flood zone or of little market value how they get to $5 - $50k/ac is insane. The carry of taxes and insurance should pull those assets towards zero realistically.

I'm attacking the system. One I've utilized a few times to help friends monetize some RE basically that they didn't want to sell or leverage. (selling the tax credit is a form of leverage though) But man sometimes they make it easy to take nickels and dimes off the table. But Trump is wrong and broke laws and anyone who doesn't see that isn't being honest. Which ones and how to adjudicate it is all that matters.

And calling the GA case bogus is just fraudulent or stupid. This IS a binary situation as you posed.

[MDlaxfan76]

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

...what taxing authority allows the property owner to assess the value of the property for tax purposes ?

Which case against Trump includes charges of tax fraud ?

You conveniently cut the rest of my post.

But to answer your question, every jurisdiction I know of has a property tax appeals process that allows the property owner to submit their argument as to what the valuation should be.

Apparently Trump signed a deed restriction in 2002 that restricts the usage to a club, not a residence. Common practice for valuation of club properties is cash flows generated. Which Trump submitted as his argument for a low valuation. Palm Beach County accepted that argument based upon the valid deed restriction and the cash flows submitted by Trump. Nothing wrong with that...if that's all there was to it.

This is why he thinks he's 'smart'. He spends a great deal of time at his own club, yet operates it as a club so as to both generate some profits AND to avoid taxes that would be due if valued as a residence (it still wouldn't be worth what he's claimed, but that's another matter).

And that's all legal, or would be...except that he can't also righteously claim that the property has hundreds of millions of value for other purposes. (Much less $1-1.5 BILLION in value) As I wrote, he could have stuck with the notion that he'd made a mistake, hadn't been paying attention, his accountants didn't tell him the right thing, whatever BS story...the judge has already ruled it to be fraud based on the hard, cold facts, so that case was already lost...why open up the possibility of an unpaid taxes claim?

If he's going to full throatily now make the argument that the deed restriction isn't real, doesn't actually restrict the property's usage, is essentially a sham, indeed it actually increases the value to a buyer rather than decreases it,(and yes, that was his argument yesterday) then Palm Beach County can open up an unpaid tax case. They haven't done so yet, but perhaps they will do so now. I sure as heck would if I was the tax authority in Palm Beach County. That's serious jack, pays for lots of street lights during Xmas...

Trump's issue is that he's bragging about having pulled one over the tax authorities. He's "smart"...

I shortened your post so there'd be no confusion about what I was addressing.

So why is this being adjudicated in NYC rather than Palm Beach County ?

Please tell me you aren't dense and are just trolling.

Ok...The over reporting of asset value fraud has occurred in NY State. Banks and insurers provided beneficial terms based on this fraud (actually set of frauds over numerous years). The judge has already adjudicated that this fraud occurred and has removed business licenses to operate in NY State.

The case in NY is now in the damages and penalties phase. An expert for the AG's office says Trump and Trump Org received $168 million in excess value through lower interest rates due these overvaluations suggesting lower risk. I haven't look hard at that analysis, but presumably Trump's legal team will try to argue that damages should be less than the expert claims. The judge will decide what he believes and then he'll decide whether and how much to assess for punitive damages. Punitive has two purposes, to dissuade the offender from further offenses and to dissuade other potential offenders from such as well. Trump will undoubtedly appeal, but the argument of bias they are currently claiming is likely to fail miserably on appeal. Their best chance to minimize the economic consequences is to argue that they should be less to this judge...but most of Trump's response so far has been to attack the judge, his staff, the prosecutors, the State of New York, Joe Biden...none of which is likely to earn him favor in the judge's determination.

I raised the tax consequence issue of Trump's testimony under oath this week because he has under oath abandoned the notion that Mar A Lago should be valued much lower, as he'd prior argued to the Palm Beach tax authorities. Frankly, the tax posture of the deed restriction reducing Mar A Lago's value to its cash earning potential had sound basis and precedent. But you gotta stick with that posture if you want the tax benefit of the lower valuation. You can't turn around and argue that the property has a real value 25X, 75X of what you'd claimed to tax authorities should be the assessment. It's one thing for a property to be actually worth on re-sale 50% higher than its prior assessed value, which is an 'oops' for the assessors, but we're talking enormous tax underpayment if the assessors accept Trump's own claims under oath. IMO, reality is probably that the property would trade higher, maybe even double what the assessors had assessed using cash flows, but not 25X.

So, that case would need to be brought in Florida. Trump may well have friends in high places in Florida who will shield him from those unpaid taxes, but if the case can be brought in Palm Beach County, it should be. That County is not GOP dominated.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Trump had some other properties in other jurisdictions which had various deed restrictions that limited their development potential and thus lowered his tax basis, but which he inflated the value for business loans, as if they had much greater development potential. If that's the case, then the inflated values were fraudulent. That fraud can be brought in NYS. But if the local jurisdictions pursue underpaid taxes, they can use Trump's under oath statements now to change their assessments, and perhaps do a look back as well.

But these cases are all weaker than the inflated value case, as the lower valuations based on deed restrictions were actually in the reasonable range. But Trump can't have it both ways...now that he's been caught and hauled into court.

I own 18 acres of land that is in permanent environmental trust, connected to the 3 acres on which my home sits. They provide a beautiful view and are part of a total of 36 acres of permanent conservation, Maryland Environmental Trust, the overall acreage shared with my sister whose 1850's original house is next door. But other than the driveway through my own 18 acres, I can only add a small barn or similar structure, no housing or other development. I can farm it which I do for 12 of the 18 acres, have a lawn and sports field area, etc, forest area, but no development potential, and I have environmental obligations to the two streams that run through it, forest buffer etc. So, our assessed value is way, way lower than if it wasn't in MET. And the resale value will undoubtedly reflect that loss of development potential if I went to sell it.

Much of my sister's land is forest and stream, below the 100 year flood area, and is undevelopable for that reason as well as MET. She shares our view of the Valley.

Trump, on the other hand, went to banks and told them a value as if there were no deed restrictions, no environmental or other practical restrictions, and obtained loans and interest rates based upon those misrepresentations. He ain't dumb, he's dishonest.

Most folks get a fat appraisal valuation for the undevelopable land like so many that use conservation easement tax credits. I find that evaluation the appriasers do to be beyond ludicrously wrong and really illegal, but they are so balls deep into it they don't care. Land value is derived from the present value of future cash flows net of expenditures (development and related). If a property is in a 100yr flood zone or of little market value how they get to $5 - $50k/ac is insane. The carry of taxes and insurance should pull those assets towards zero realistically.

I'm attacking the system. One I've utilized a few times to help friends monetize some RE basically that they didn't want to sell or leverage. (selling the tax credit is a form of leverage though) But man sometimes they make it easy to take nickels and dimes off the table. But Trump is wrong and broke laws and anyone who doesn't see that isn't being honest. Which ones and how to adjudicate it is all that matters.

And calling the GA case bogus is just fraudulent or stupid. This IS a binary situation as you posed.

Yes, another form of potential tax fraud is to drastically overstate the value of an asset prior to restricting it through a deed restriction, including environmental easements that qualify for an immediate tax deduction. When my dad did this back in the '80's it was part of negotiated settlement with a developer who wanted to develop 60 houses on a 150 acre horse farm most of which was across the street from our 6 acre home. I don't think the 60 units were feasible in reality, at least not without water and sewer introduced to the Valley (which had been and still is fiercely opposed) but certainly it could have been 30+ homes, including multiple in the area of land we own above the 100 year flood plain. Many, many across the street for sure. The negotiation knocked it back to 5 homes with ~20 acres each in specifically circumscribed building envelopes well away from the road and clustered in two groupings, with the rest of the land either purchased by my dad or two other neighbors and put into conservation or restricted by deed from any further development in perpetuity. Whatever he paid for those 36 acres was what he was able to use for the deduction calc, not higher. My sister bought the original home and half the overall acreage, we bought the other half plus 3 of the original 6 acres and connected them to the 18, built our home to include a 2 bedroom, kitchen, living room, patio etc for my parents, which looks like part of our house but has separate entrance, and connects to basement, main entrance, etc. but has privacy. Worked out great for my parents, who had their grandkids all around them, half of dinners made on our side of house, and they could close up and go to Florida for the winter.

[Farfromgeneva]

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

...what taxing authority allows the property owner to assess the value of the property for tax purposes ?

Which case against Trump includes charges of tax fraud ?

You conveniently cut the rest of my post.

But to answer your question, every jurisdiction I know of has a property tax appeals process that allows the property owner to submit their argument as to what the valuation should be.

Apparently Trump signed a deed restriction in 2002 that restricts the usage to a club, not a residence. Common practice for valuation of club properties is cash flows generated. Which Trump submitted as his argument for a low valuation. Palm Beach County accepted that argument based upon the valid deed restriction and the cash flows submitted by Trump. Nothing wrong with that...if that's all there was to it.

This is why he thinks he's 'smart'. He spends a great deal of time at his own club, yet operates it as a club so as to both generate some profits AND to avoid taxes that would be due if valued as a residence (it still wouldn't be worth what he's claimed, but that's another matter).

And that's all legal, or would be...except that he can't also righteously claim that the property has hundreds of millions of value for other purposes. (Much less $1-1.5 BILLION in value) As I wrote, he could have stuck with the notion that he'd made a mistake, hadn't been paying attention, his accountants didn't tell him the right thing, whatever BS story...the judge has already ruled it to be fraud based on the hard, cold facts, so that case was already lost...why open up the possibility of an unpaid taxes claim?

If he's going to full throatily now make the argument that the deed restriction isn't real, doesn't actually restrict the property's usage, is essentially a sham, indeed it actually increases the value to a buyer rather than decreases it,(and yes, that was his argument yesterday) then Palm Beach County can open up an unpaid tax case. They haven't done so yet, but perhaps they will do so now. I sure as heck would if I was the tax authority in Palm Beach County. That's serious jack, pays for lots of street lights during Xmas...

Trump's issue is that he's bragging about having pulled one over the tax authorities. He's "smart"...

I shortened your post so there'd be no confusion about what I was addressing.

So why is this being adjudicated in NYC rather than Palm Beach County ?

Please tell me you aren't dense and are just trolling.

Ok...The over reporting of asset value fraud has occurred in NY State. Banks and insurers provided beneficial terms based on this fraud (actually set of frauds over numerous years). The judge has already adjudicated that this fraud occurred and has removed business licenses to operate in NY State.

The case in NY is now in the damages and penalties phase. An expert for the AG's office says Trump and Trump Org received $168 million in excess value through lower interest rates due these overvaluations suggesting lower risk. I haven't look hard at that analysis, but presumably Trump's legal team will try to argue that damages should be less than the expert claims. The judge will decide what he believes and then he'll decide whether and how much to assess for punitive damages. Punitive has two purposes, to dissuade the offender from further offenses and to dissuade other potential offenders from such as well. Trump will undoubtedly appeal, but the argument of bias they are currently claiming is likely to fail miserably on appeal. Their best chance to minimize the economic consequences is to argue that they should be less to this judge...but most of Trump's response so far has been to attack the judge, his staff, the prosecutors, the State of New York, Joe Biden...none of which is likely to earn him favor in the judge's determination.

I raised the tax consequence issue of Trump's testimony under oath this week because he has under oath abandoned the notion that Mar A Lago should be valued much lower, as he'd prior argued to the Palm Beach tax authorities. Frankly, the tax posture of the deed restriction reducing Mar A Lago's value to its cash earning potential had sound basis and precedent. But you gotta stick with that posture if you want the tax benefit of the lower valuation. You can't turn around and argue that the property has a real value 25X, 75X of what you'd claimed to tax authorities should be the assessment. It's one thing for a property to be actually worth on re-sale 50% higher than its prior assessed value, which is an 'oops' for the assessors, but we're talking enormous tax underpayment if the assessors accept Trump's own claims under oath. IMO, reality is probably that the property would trade higher, maybe even double what the assessors had assessed using cash flows, but not 25X.

So, that case would need to be brought in Florida. Trump may well have friends in high places in Florida who will shield him from those unpaid taxes, but if the case can be brought in Palm Beach County, it should be. That County is not GOP dominated.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Trump had some other properties in other jurisdictions which had various deed restrictions that limited their development potential and thus lowered his tax basis, but which he inflated the value for business loans, as if they had much greater development potential. If that's the case, then the inflated values were fraudulent. That fraud can be brought in NYS. But if the local jurisdictions pursue underpaid taxes, they can use Trump's under oath statements now to change their assessments, and perhaps do a look back as well.

But these cases are all weaker than the inflated value case, as the lower valuations based on deed restrictions were actually in the reasonable range. But Trump can't have it both ways...now that he's been caught and hauled into court.

I own 18 acres of land that is in permanent environmental trust, connected to the 3 acres on which my home sits. They provide a beautiful view and are part of a total of 36 acres of permanent conservation, Maryland Environmental Trust, the overall acreage shared with my sister whose 1850's original house is next door. But other than the driveway through my own 18 acres, I can only add a small barn or similar structure, no housing or other development. I can farm it which I do for 12 of the 18 acres, have a lawn and sports field area, etc, forest area, but no development potential, and I have environmental obligations to the two streams that run through it, forest buffer etc. So, our assessed value is way, way lower than if it wasn't in MET. And the resale value will undoubtedly reflect that loss of development potential if I went to sell it.

Much of my sister's land is forest and stream, below the 100 year flood area, and is undevelopable for that reason as well as MET. She shares our view of the Valley.

Trump, on the other hand, went to banks and told them a value as if there were no deed restrictions, no environmental or other practical restrictions, and obtained loans and interest rates based upon those misrepresentations. He ain't dumb, he's dishonest.

Most folks get a fat appraisal valuation for the undevelopable land like so many that use conservation easement tax credits. I find that evaluation the appriasers do to be beyond ludicrously wrong and really illegal, but they are so balls deep into it they don't care. Land value is derived from the present value of future cash flows net of expenditures (development and related). If a property is in a 100yr flood zone or of little market value how they get to $5 - $50k/ac is insane. The carry of taxes and insurance should pull those assets towards zero realistically.

I'm attacking the system. One I've utilized a few times to help friends monetize some RE basically that they didn't want to sell or leverage. (selling the tax credit is a form of leverage though) But man sometimes they make it easy to take nickels and dimes off the table. But Trump is wrong and broke laws and anyone who doesn't see that isn't being honest. Which ones and how to adjudicate it is all that matters.

And calling the GA case bogus is just fraudulent or stupid. This IS a binary situation as you posed.

Yes, another form of potential tax fraud is to drastically overstate the value of an asset prior to restricting it through a deed restriction, including environmental easements that qualify for an immediate tax deduction. When my dad did this back in the '80's it was part of negotiated settlement with a developer who wanted to develop 60 houses on a 150 acre horse farm most of which was across the street from our 6 acre home. I don't think the 60 units were feasible in reality, at least not without water and sewer introduced to the Valley (which had been and still is fiercely opposed) but certainly it could have been 30+ homes, including multiple in the area of land we own above the 100 year flood plain. Many, many across the street for sure. The negotiation knocked it back to 5 homes with ~20 acres each in specifically circumscribed building envelopes well away from the road and clustered in two groupings, with the rest of the land either purchased by my dad or two other neighbors and put into conservation or restricted by deed from any further development in perpetuity. Whatever he paid for those 36 acres was what he was able to use for the deduction calc, not higher. My sister bought the original home and half the overall acreage, we bought the other half plus 3 of the original 6 acres and connected them to the 18, built our home to include a 2 bedroom, kitchen, living room, patio etc for my parents, which looks like part of our house but has separate entrance, and connects to basement, main entrance, etc. but has privacy. Worked out great for my parents, who had their grandkids all around them, half of dinners made on our side of house, and they could close up and go to Florida for the winter.

When you have a contemporary sale/“print” it’s hard to maneuver around but if the asset/land has been owned more than like 12-18 mo you get into appreciation territory which opens up the barn door. The developers I see sit on it while doing other work wit th the cash on hand then backfill their capital needs after some curb cuts and land infrastructure is built-pvc farm and beyond, so that’s 12-24mo or more from acquisition of the land and they can go get a new appraisal and the appraisers all know the game.

Another good idea that’s been so bastardized that it just needs to go away.

[Farfromgeneva]

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

...what taxing authority allows the property owner to assess the value of the property for tax purposes ?

Which case against Trump includes charges of tax fraud ?

You conveniently cut the rest of my post.

But to answer your question, every jurisdiction I know of has a property tax appeals process that allows the property owner to submit their argument as to what the valuation should be.

Apparently Trump signed a deed restriction in 2002 that restricts the usage to a club, not a residence. Common practice for valuation of club properties is cash flows generated. Which Trump submitted as his argument for a low valuation. Palm Beach County accepted that argument based upon the valid deed restriction and the cash flows submitted by Trump. Nothing wrong with that...if that's all there was to it.

This is why he thinks he's 'smart'. He spends a great deal of time at his own club, yet operates it as a club so as to both generate some profits AND to avoid taxes that would be due if valued as a residence (it still wouldn't be worth what he's claimed, but that's another matter).

And that's all legal, or would be...except that he can't also righteously claim that the property has hundreds of millions of value for other purposes. (Much less $1-1.5 BILLION in value) As I wrote, he could have stuck with the notion that he'd made a mistake, hadn't been paying attention, his accountants didn't tell him the right thing, whatever BS story...the judge has already ruled it to be fraud based on the hard, cold facts, so that case was already lost...why open up the possibility of an unpaid taxes claim?

If he's going to full throatily now make the argument that the deed restriction isn't real, doesn't actually restrict the property's usage, is essentially a sham, indeed it actually increases the value to a buyer rather than decreases it,(and yes, that was his argument yesterday) then Palm Beach County can open up an unpaid tax case. They haven't done so yet, but perhaps they will do so now. I sure as heck would if I was the tax authority in Palm Beach County. That's serious jack, pays for lots of street lights during Xmas...

Trump's issue is that he's bragging about having pulled one over the tax authorities. He's "smart"...

I shortened your post so there'd be no confusion about what I was addressing.

So why is this being adjudicated in NYC rather than Palm Beach County ?

Please tell me you aren't dense and are just trolling.

Ok...The over reporting of asset value fraud has occurred in NY State. Banks and insurers provided beneficial terms based on this fraud (actually set of frauds over numerous years). The judge has already adjudicated that this fraud occurred and has removed business licenses to operate in NY State.

The case in NY is now in the damages and penalties phase. An expert for the AG's office says Trump and Trump Org received $168 million in excess value through lower interest rates due these overvaluations suggesting lower risk. I haven't look hard at that analysis, but presumably Trump's legal team will try to argue that damages should be less than the expert claims. The judge will decide what he believes and then he'll decide whether and how much to assess for punitive damages. Punitive has two purposes, to dissuade the offender from further offenses and to dissuade other potential offenders from such as well. Trump will undoubtedly appeal, but the argument of bias they are currently claiming is likely to fail miserably on appeal. Their best chance to minimize the economic consequences is to argue that they should be less to this judge...but most of Trump's response so far has been to attack the judge, his staff, the prosecutors, the State of New York, Joe Biden...none of which is likely to earn him favor in the judge's determination.

I raised the tax consequence issue of Trump's testimony under oath this week because he has under oath abandoned the notion that Mar A Lago should be valued much lower, as he'd prior argued to the Palm Beach tax authorities. Frankly, the tax posture of the deed restriction reducing Mar A Lago's value to its cash earning potential had sound basis and precedent. But you gotta stick with that posture if you want the tax benefit of the lower valuation. You can't turn around and argue that the property has a real value 25X, 75X of what you'd claimed to tax authorities should be the assessment. It's one thing for a property to be actually worth on re-sale 50% higher than its prior assessed value, which is an 'oops' for the assessors, but we're talking enormous tax underpayment if the assessors accept Trump's own claims under oath. IMO, reality is probably that the property would trade higher, maybe even double what the assessors had assessed using cash flows, but not 25X.

So, that case would need to be brought in Florida. Trump may well have friends in high places in Florida who will shield him from those unpaid taxes, but if the case can be brought in Palm Beach County, it should be. That County is not GOP dominated.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Trump had some other properties in other jurisdictions which had various deed restrictions that limited their development potential and thus lowered his tax basis, but which he inflated the value for business loans, as if they had much greater development potential. If that's the case, then the inflated values were fraudulent. That fraud can be brought in NYS. But if the local jurisdictions pursue underpaid taxes, they can use Trump's under oath statements now to change their assessments, and perhaps do a look back as well.

But these cases are all weaker than the inflated value case, as the lower valuations based on deed restrictions were actually in the reasonable range. But Trump can't have it both ways...now that he's been caught and hauled into court.

I own 18 acres of land that is in permanent environmental trust, connected to the 3 acres on which my home sits. They provide a beautiful view and are part of a total of 36 acres of permanent conservation, Maryland Environmental Trust, the overall acreage shared with my sister whose 1850's original house is next door. But other than the driveway through my own 18 acres, I can only add a small barn or similar structure, no housing or other development. I can farm it which I do for 12 of the 18 acres, have a lawn and sports field area, etc, forest area, but no development potential, and I have environmental obligations to the two streams that run through it, forest buffer etc. So, our assessed value is way, way lower than if it wasn't in MET. And the resale value will undoubtedly reflect that loss of development potential if I went to sell it.

Much of my sister's land is forest and stream, below the 100 year flood area, and is undevelopable for that reason as well as MET. She shares our view of the Valley.

Trump, on the other hand, went to banks and told them a value as if there were no deed restrictions, no environmental or other practical restrictions, and obtained loans and interest rates based upon those misrepresentations. He ain't dumb, he's dishonest.

Most folks get a fat appraisal valuation for the undevelopable land like so many that use conservation easement tax credits. I find that evaluation the appriasers do to be beyond ludicrously wrong and really illegal, but they are so balls deep into it they don't care. Land value is derived from the present value of future cash flows net of expenditures (development and related). If a property is in a 100yr flood zone or of little market value how they get to $5 - $50k/ac is insane. The carry of taxes and insurance should pull those assets towards zero realistically.

I'm attacking the system. One I've utilized a few times to help friends monetize some RE basically that they didn't want to sell or leverage. (selling the tax credit is a form of leverage though) But man sometimes they make it easy to take nickels and dimes off the table. But Trump is wrong and broke laws and anyone who doesn't see that isn't being honest. Which ones and how to adjudicate it is all that matters.

And calling the GA case bogus is just fraudulent or stupid. This IS a binary situation as you posed.

Yes, another form of potential tax fraud is to drastically overstate the value of an asset prior to restricting it through a deed restriction, including environmental easements that qualify for an immediate tax deduction. When my dad did this back in the '80's it was part of negotiated settlement with a developer who wanted to develop 60 houses on a 150 acre horse farm most of which was across the street from our 6 acre home. I don't think the 60 units were feasible in reality, at least not without water and sewer introduced to the Valley (which had been and still is fiercely opposed) but certainly it could have been 30+ homes, including multiple in the area of land we own above the 100 year flood plain. Many, many across the street for sure. The negotiation knocked it back to 5 homes with ~20 acres each in specifically circumscribed building envelopes well away from the road and clustered in two groupings, with the rest of the land either purchased by my dad or two other neighbors and put into conservation or restricted by deed from any further development in perpetuity. Whatever he paid for those 36 acres was what he was able to use for the deduction calc, not higher. My sister bought the original home and half the overall acreage, we bought the other half plus 3 of the original 6 acres and connected them to the 18, built our home to include a 2 bedroom, kitchen, living room, patio etc for my parents, which looks like part of our house but has separate entrance, and connects to basement, main entrance, etc. but has privacy. Worked out great for my parents, who had their grandkids all around them, half of dinners made on our side of house, and they could close up and go to Florida for the winter.

Sounds like nice horse country. Had a friend in college, unfortunately never grew up but is now the scariest pediatric dentist I could imagine in Colorado, lived somewhere in MD North of Balt in horse country but somehow parents claimed NH for tax purposes. Boys Latin kid. He’s into the aristocratic outdoor activities. Not sure the current money hit family was purportedly related too Smithwicks beer.

[MDlaxfan76]

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

...what taxing authority allows the property owner to assess the value of the property for tax purposes ?

Which case against Trump includes charges of tax fraud ?

You conveniently cut the rest of my post.

But to answer your question, every jurisdiction I know of has a property tax appeals process that allows the property owner to submit their argument as to what the valuation should be.

Apparently Trump signed a deed restriction in 2002 that restricts the usage to a club, not a residence. Common practice for valuation of club properties is cash flows generated. Which Trump submitted as his argument for a low valuation. Palm Beach County accepted that argument based upon the valid deed restriction and the cash flows submitted by Trump. Nothing wrong with that...if that's all there was to it.

This is why he thinks he's 'smart'. He spends a great deal of time at his own club, yet operates it as a club so as to both generate some profits AND to avoid taxes that would be due if valued as a residence (it still wouldn't be worth what he's claimed, but that's another matter).

And that's all legal, or would be...except that he can't also righteously claim that the property has hundreds of millions of value for other purposes. (Much less $1-1.5 BILLION in value) As I wrote, he could have stuck with the notion that he'd made a mistake, hadn't been paying attention, his accountants didn't tell him the right thing, whatever BS story...the judge has already ruled it to be fraud based on the hard, cold facts, so that case was already lost...why open up the possibility of an unpaid taxes claim?

If he's going to full throatily now make the argument that the deed restriction isn't real, doesn't actually restrict the property's usage, is essentially a sham, indeed it actually increases the value to a buyer rather than decreases it,(and yes, that was his argument yesterday) then Palm Beach County can open up an unpaid tax case. They haven't done so yet, but perhaps they will do so now. I sure as heck would if I was the tax authority in Palm Beach County. That's serious jack, pays for lots of street lights during Xmas...

Trump's issue is that he's bragging about having pulled one over the tax authorities. He's "smart"...

I shortened your post so there'd be no confusion about what I was addressing.

So why is this being adjudicated in NYC rather than Palm Beach County ?

Please tell me you aren't dense and are just trolling.

Ok...The over reporting of asset value fraud has occurred in NY State. Banks and insurers provided beneficial terms based on this fraud (actually set of frauds over numerous years). The judge has already adjudicated that this fraud occurred and has removed business licenses to operate in NY State.

The case in NY is now in the damages and penalties phase. An expert for the AG's office says Trump and Trump Org received $168 million in excess value through lower interest rates due these overvaluations suggesting lower risk. I haven't look hard at that analysis, but presumably Trump's legal team will try to argue that damages should be less than the expert claims. The judge will decide what he believes and then he'll decide whether and how much to assess for punitive damages. Punitive has two purposes, to dissuade the offender from further offenses and to dissuade other potential offenders from such as well. Trump will undoubtedly appeal, but the argument of bias they are currently claiming is likely to fail miserably on appeal. Their best chance to minimize the economic consequences is to argue that they should be less to this judge...but most of Trump's response so far has been to attack the judge, his staff, the prosecutors, the State of New York, Joe Biden...none of which is likely to earn him favor in the judge's determination.

I raised the tax consequence issue of Trump's testimony under oath this week because he has under oath abandoned the notion that Mar A Lago should be valued much lower, as he'd prior argued to the Palm Beach tax authorities. Frankly, the tax posture of the deed restriction reducing Mar A Lago's value to its cash earning potential had sound basis and precedent. But you gotta stick with that posture if you want the tax benefit of the lower valuation. You can't turn around and argue that the property has a real value 25X, 75X of what you'd claimed to tax authorities should be the assessment. It's one thing for a property to be actually worth on re-sale 50% higher than its prior assessed value, which is an 'oops' for the assessors, but we're talking enormous tax underpayment if the assessors accept Trump's own claims under oath. IMO, reality is probably that the property would trade higher, maybe even double what the assessors had assessed using cash flows, but not 25X.

So, that case would need to be brought in Florida. Trump may well have friends in high places in Florida who will shield him from those unpaid taxes, but if the case can be brought in Palm Beach County, it should be. That County is not GOP dominated.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Trump had some other properties in other jurisdictions which had various deed restrictions that limited their development potential and thus lowered his tax basis, but which he inflated the value for business loans, as if they had much greater development potential. If that's the case, then the inflated values were fraudulent. That fraud can be brought in NYS. But if the local jurisdictions pursue underpaid taxes, they can use Trump's under oath statements now to change their assessments, and perhaps do a look back as well.

But these cases are all weaker than the inflated value case, as the lower valuations based on deed restrictions were actually in the reasonable range. But Trump can't have it both ways...now that he's been caught and hauled into court.

I own 18 acres of land that is in permanent environmental trust, connected to the 3 acres on which my home sits. They provide a beautiful view and are part of a total of 36 acres of permanent conservation, Maryland Environmental Trust, the overall acreage shared with my sister whose 1850's original house is next door. But other than the driveway through my own 18 acres, I can only add a small barn or similar structure, no housing or other development. I can farm it which I do for 12 of the 18 acres, have a lawn and sports field area, etc, forest area, but no development potential, and I have environmental obligations to the two streams that run through it, forest buffer etc. So, our assessed value is way, way lower than if it wasn't in MET. And the resale value will undoubtedly reflect that loss of development potential if I went to sell it.

Much of my sister's land is forest and stream, below the 100 year flood area, and is undevelopable for that reason as well as MET. She shares our view of the Valley.

Trump, on the other hand, went to banks and told them a value as if there were no deed restrictions, no environmental or other practical restrictions, and obtained loans and interest rates based upon those misrepresentations. He ain't dumb, he's dishonest.

Most folks get a fat appraisal valuation for the undevelopable land like so many that use conservation easement tax credits. I find that evaluation the appriasers do to be beyond ludicrously wrong and really illegal, but they are so balls deep into it they don't care. Land value is derived from the present value of future cash flows net of expenditures (development and related). If a property is in a 100yr flood zone or of little market value how they get to $5 - $50k/ac is insane. The carry of taxes and insurance should pull those assets towards zero realistically.

I'm attacking the system. One I've utilized a few times to help friends monetize some RE basically that they didn't want to sell or leverage. (selling the tax credit is a form of leverage though) But man sometimes they make it easy to take nickels and dimes off the table. But Trump is wrong and broke laws and anyone who doesn't see that isn't being honest. Which ones and how to adjudicate it is all that matters.

And calling the GA case bogus is just fraudulent or stupid. This IS a binary situation as you posed.

Yes, another form of potential tax fraud is to drastically overstate the value of an asset prior to restricting it through a deed restriction, including environmental easements that qualify for an immediate tax deduction. When my dad did this back in the '80's it was part of negotiated settlement with a developer who wanted to develop 60 houses on a 150 acre horse farm most of which was across the street from our 6 acre home. I don't think the 60 units were feasible in reality, at least not without water and sewer introduced to the Valley (which had been and still is fiercely opposed) but certainly it could have been 30+ homes, including multiple in the area of land we own above the 100 year flood plain. Many, many across the street for sure. The negotiation knocked it back to 5 homes with ~20 acres each in specifically circumscribed building envelopes well away from the road and clustered in two groupings, with the rest of the land either purchased by my dad or two other neighbors and put into conservation or restricted by deed from any further development in perpetuity. Whatever he paid for those 36 acres was what he was able to use for the deduction calc, not higher. My sister bought the original home and half the overall acreage, we bought the other half plus 3 of the original 6 acres and connected them to the 18, built our home to include a 2 bedroom, kitchen, living room, patio etc for my parents, which looks like part of our house but has separate entrance, and connects to basement, main entrance, etc. but has privacy. Worked out great for my parents, who had their grandkids all around them, half of dinners made on our side of house, and they could close up and go to Florida for the winter.

When you have a contemporary sale/“print” it’s hard to maneuver around but if the asset/land has been owned more than like 12-18 mo you get into appreciation territory which opens up the barn door. The developers I see sit on it while doing other work wit th the cash on hand then backfill their capital needs after some curb cuts and land infrastructure is built-pvc farm and beyond, so that’s 12-24mo or more from acquisition of the land and they can go get a new appraisal and the appraisers all know the game.

Another good idea that’s been so bastardized that it just needs to go away.

yes, again, if there's no one sophisticated to challenge the deduction being made based on a grossly over puffed valuation, the tax authorities are at a disadvantage to this dishonest game. Sure, a little stretch might be defensible, but I agree that those doing it grossly should be brought up short and hard.

[MDlaxfan76]

The tax rate in Palm Beach county is 1.11%.
Taking the low end of Trump's estimate of value, that's more than $10 million in unpaid taxes per year.
High end, more than $15 million per year.

...what taxing authority allows the property owner to assess the value of the property for tax purposes ?

Which case against Trump includes charges of tax fraud ?

You conveniently cut the rest of my post.

But to answer your question, every jurisdiction I know of has a property tax appeals process that allows the property owner to submit their argument as to what the valuation should be.

Apparently Trump signed a deed restriction in 2002 that restricts the usage to a club, not a residence. Common practice for valuation of club properties is cash flows generated. Which Trump submitted as his argument for a low valuation. Palm Beach County accepted that argument based upon the valid deed restriction and the cash flows submitted by Trump. Nothing wrong with that...if that's all there was to it.

This is why he thinks he's 'smart'. He spends a great deal of time at his own club, yet operates it as a club so as to both generate some profits AND to avoid taxes that would be due if valued as a residence (it still wouldn't be worth what he's claimed, but that's another matter).

And that's all legal, or would be...except that he can't also righteously claim that the property has hundreds of millions of value for other purposes. (Much less $1-1.5 BILLION in value) As I wrote, he could have stuck with the notion that he'd made a mistake, hadn't been paying attention, his accountants didn't tell him the right thing, whatever BS story...the judge has already ruled it to be fraud based on the hard, cold facts, so that case was already lost...why open up the possibility of an unpaid taxes claim?

If he's going to full throatily now make the argument that the deed restriction isn't real, doesn't actually restrict the property's usage, is essentially a sham, indeed it actually increases the value to a buyer rather than decreases it,(and yes, that was his argument yesterday) then Palm Beach County can open up an unpaid tax case. They haven't done so yet, but perhaps they will do so now. I sure as heck would if I was the tax authority in Palm Beach County. That's serious jack, pays for lots of street lights during Xmas...

Trump's issue is that he's bragging about having pulled one over the tax authorities. He's "smart"...

I shortened your post so there'd be no confusion about what I was addressing.

So why is this being adjudicated in NYC rather than Palm Beach County ?

Please tell me you aren't dense and are just trolling.

Ok...The over reporting of asset value fraud has occurred in NY State. Banks and insurers provided beneficial terms based on this fraud (actually set of frauds over numerous years). The judge has already adjudicated that this fraud occurred and has removed business licenses to operate in NY State.

The case in NY is now in the damages and penalties phase. An expert for the AG's office says Trump and Trump Org received $168 million in excess value through lower interest rates due these overvaluations suggesting lower risk. I haven't look hard at that analysis, but presumably Trump's legal team will try to argue that damages should be less than the expert claims. The judge will decide what he believes and then he'll decide whether and how much to assess for punitive damages. Punitive has two purposes, to dissuade the offender from further offenses and to dissuade other potential offenders from such as well. Trump will undoubtedly appeal, but the argument of bias they are currently claiming is likely to fail miserably on appeal. Their best chance to minimize the economic consequences is to argue that they should be less to this judge...but most of Trump's response so far has been to attack the judge, his staff, the prosecutors, the State of New York, Joe Biden...none of which is likely to earn him favor in the judge's determination.

I raised the tax consequence issue of Trump's testimony under oath this week because he has under oath abandoned the notion that Mar A Lago should be valued much lower, as he'd prior argued to the Palm Beach tax authorities. Frankly, the tax posture of the deed restriction reducing Mar A Lago's value to its cash earning potential had sound basis and precedent. But you gotta stick with that posture if you want the tax benefit of the lower valuation. You can't turn around and argue that the property has a real value 25X, 75X of what you'd claimed to tax authorities should be the assessment. It's one thing for a property to be actually worth on re-sale 50% higher than its prior assessed value, which is an 'oops' for the assessors, but we're talking enormous tax underpayment if the assessors accept Trump's own claims under oath. IMO, reality is probably that the property would trade higher, maybe even double what the assessors had assessed using cash flows, but not 25X.

So, that case would need to be brought in Florida. Trump may well have friends in high places in Florida who will shield him from those unpaid taxes, but if the case can be brought in Palm Beach County, it should be. That County is not GOP dominated.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Trump had some other properties in other jurisdictions which had various deed restrictions that limited their development potential and thus lowered his tax basis, but which he inflated the value for business loans, as if they had much greater development potential. If that's the case, then the inflated values were fraudulent. That fraud can be brought in NYS. But if the local jurisdictions pursue underpaid taxes, they can use Trump's under oath statements now to change their assessments, and perhaps do a look back as well.

But these cases are all weaker than the inflated value case, as the lower valuations based on deed restrictions were actually in the reasonable range. But Trump can't have it both ways...now that he's been caught and hauled into court.

I own 18 acres of land that is in permanent environmental trust, connected to the 3 acres on which my home sits. They provide a beautiful view and are part of a total of 36 acres of permanent conservation, Maryland Environmental Trust, the overall acreage shared with my sister whose 1850's original house is next door. But other than the driveway through my own 18 acres, I can only add a small barn or similar structure, no housing or other development. I can farm it which I do for 12 of the 18 acres, have a lawn and sports field area, etc, forest area, but no development potential, and I have environmental obligations to the two streams that run through it, forest buffer etc. So, our assessed value is way, way lower than if it wasn't in MET. And the resale value will undoubtedly reflect that loss of development potential if I went to sell it.

Much of my sister's land is forest and stream, below the 100 year flood area, and is undevelopable for that reason as well as MET. She shares our view of the Valley.

Trump, on the other hand, went to banks and told them a value as if there were no deed restrictions, no environmental or other practical restrictions, and obtained loans and interest rates based upon those misrepresentations. He ain't dumb, he's dishonest.

Most folks get a fat appraisal valuation for the undevelopable land like so many that use conservation easement tax credits. I find that evaluation the appriasers do to be beyond ludicrously wrong and really illegal, but they are so balls deep into it they don't care. Land value is derived from the present value of future cash flows net of expenditures (development and related). If a property is in a 100yr flood zone or of little market value how they get to $5 - $50k/ac is insane. The carry of taxes and insurance should pull those assets towards zero realistically.

I'm attacking the system. One I've utilized a few times to help friends monetize some RE basically that they didn't want to sell or leverage. (selling the tax credit is a form of leverage though) But man sometimes they make it easy to take nickels and dimes off the table. But Trump is wrong and broke laws and anyone who doesn't see that isn't being honest. Which ones and how to adjudicate it is all that matters.

And calling the GA case bogus is just fraudulent or stupid. This IS a binary situation as you posed.

Yes, another form of potential tax fraud is to drastically overstate the value of an asset prior to restricting it through a deed restriction, including environmental easements that qualify for an immediate tax deduction. When my dad did this back in the '80's it was part of negotiated settlement with a developer who wanted to develop 60 houses on a 150 acre horse farm most of which was across the street from our 6 acre home. I don't think the 60 units were feasible in reality, at least not without water and sewer introduced to the Valley (which had been and still is fiercely opposed) but certainly it could have been 30+ homes, including multiple in the area of land we own above the 100 year flood plain. Many, many across the street for sure. The negotiation knocked it back to 5 homes with ~20 acres each in specifically circumscribed building envelopes well away from the road and clustered in two groupings, with the rest of the land either purchased by my dad or two other neighbors and put into conservation or restricted by deed from any further development in perpetuity. Whatever he paid for those 36 acres was what he was able to use for the deduction calc, not higher. My sister bought the original home and half the overall acreage, we bought the other half plus 3 of the original 6 acres and connected them to the 18, built our home to include a 2 bedroom, kitchen, living room, patio etc for my parents, which looks like part of our house but has separate entrance, and connects to basement, main entrance, etc. but has privacy. Worked out great for my parents, who had their grandkids all around them, half of dinners made on our side of house, and they could close up and go to Florida for the winter.

Sounds like nice horse country. Had a friend in college, unfortunately never grew up but is now the scariest pediatric dentist I could imagine in Colorado, lived somewhere in MD North of Balt in horse country but somehow parents claimed NH for tax purposes. Boys Latin kid. He’s into the aristocratic outdoor activities. Not sure the current money hit family was purportedly related too Smithwicks beer.

We're the first valley north of the Beltway in a series of valleys. Greenspring Valley. 20 minutes to downtown, Inner Harbor, if not at high traffic. Used to be 'horse country', still was when we got there in '69, with folks freely riding across each other's properties, but very few horses still kept in this valley, though we do have a neighbor who continues to ride the paths in the woods and occasionally across our field...out two valleys to Shawan Valley, another matter, lots of horses, Hunt Cup, Shawan Downs, steeplechase etc.. And to the east of there, Monkton and beyond, lots of horse farms. But a whole lot of corn fields now in McMansions too.

[Kismet]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

[ggait]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

Or VDH.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Hunter Biden picking up a few items in advance of his meeting with the Big Guy….Joe has him running deals for him.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyoP_cAu ... BiNWFlZA==

[MDlaxfan76]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

[old salt]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

There is nothing to tell. As I predicted, Weiss said nothing new, hiding behind his SC status.
Weiss has yet to explain why he allowed the SOL's on the early years to expire & if he ever intends to prosecute on any tax charges before all the SOL's expire. Now that he's a SC, he's not required to provide any information until he completes his investigation.

The WB's testified that the cases were ready to go before their Oct 2020 meeting with Weiss.
Weiss has yet to say why did not proceed by then, or by now.
Meanwhile, the SOL tick-tok runs.

[MDlaxfan76]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

There is nothing to tell. As I predicted, Weiss said nothing new, hiding behind his SC status.
Weiss has yet to explain why he allowed the SOL's on the early years to expire & if he ever intends to prosecute on any tax charges before all the SOL's expire. Now that he's a SC, he's not required to provide any information until he completes his investigation.

The WB's testified that the cases were ready to go before their Oct 2020 meeting with Weiss.
Weiss has yet to say why did not proceed by then, or by now.
Meanwhile, the SOL tick-tock runs.

Yeah, that's what happened today.

[old salt]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

There is nothing to tell. As I predicted, Weiss said nothing new, hiding behind his SC status.
Weiss has yet to explain why he allowed the SOL's on the early years to expire & if he ever intends to prosecute on any tax charges before all the SOL's expire. Now that he's a SC, he's not required to provide any information until he completes his investigation.

The WB's testified that the cases were ready to go before their Oct 2020 meeting with Weiss.
Weiss has yet to say why did not proceed by then, or by now.
Meanwhile, the SOL tick-tok runs.

Yeah, that's what happened today.

There is still no indication that Weiss intends to charge Hunter with anything related to his tax cases.

https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/news/davi ... im-jordan/
Before Shapley and Ziegler came forward, Weiss reportedly considered ending the probe without charging Hunter Biden with any crimes.

Weiss ultimately approved a probation-only plea deal, which dramatically imploded at a July 26 court hearing over a dispute with defense attorneys about the scope of immunity for past conduct.

Weiss in September charged Hunter Biden in Delaware with three felonies related to gun possession, but he has not yet refiled tax charges, which could also come with related counts such as money laundering and alleged violations of the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

[a fan]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

There is nothing to tell. As I predicted, Weiss said nothing new, hiding behind his SC status.
Weiss has yet to explain why he allowed the SOL's on the early years to expire & if he ever intends to prosecute on any tax charges before all the SOL's expire. Now that he's a SC, he's not required to provide any information until he completes his investigation.

The WB's testified that the cases were ready to go before their Oct 2020 meeting with Weiss.
Weiss has yet to say why did not proceed by then, or by now.
Meanwhile, the SOL tick-tok runs.

Yeah, that's what happened today.

There is still no indication that Weiss intends to charge Hunter with anything related to his tax cases.

So....you're happy, right? All these charges are politically motivated craziness from your Deep State, right?

We've lost track, OS: is it ok with you that that DoJ is investigating Hunter for breaking laws, or not?

The one thing I DO know, is that you're against this unjust "weaponization" by your Deep State to go after poor ol' Hunter Biden.

Glad you set us all straight that laws don't count for politicians and their sons. Thanks for that!

[old salt]

Gee - no bloviating today on Weiss testifying before Gym Jordan's committee?

Wonder why that is? Maybe because he denied any of the fantasies some have been speculating here for months now.


I guess that's the way the Saltine crumbles

I don't think Andy McCarthy has had time yet to tell Salty what to think.

There is nothing to tell. As I predicted, Weiss said nothing new, hiding behind his SC status.
Weiss has yet to explain why he allowed the SOL's on the early years to expire & if he ever intends to prosecute on any tax charges before all the SOL's expire. Now that he's a SC, he's not required to provide any information until he completes his investigation.

The WB's testified that the cases were ready to go before their Oct 2022 meeting with Weiss.
Weiss has yet to say why did not proceed by then, or by now.
Meanwhile, the SOL tick-tok runs.

Yeah, that's what happened today.

There is still no indication that Weiss intends to charge Hunter with anything related to his tax cases.

So....you're happy, right? All these charges are politically motivated craziness from your Deep State, right?

We've lost track, OS: is it ok with you that that DoJ is investigating Hunter for breaking laws, or not?

The one thing I DO know, is that you're against this unjust "weaponization" by your Deep State to go after poor ol' Hunter Biden.

Glad you set us all straight that laws don't count for politicians and their sons. Thanks for that!

I'm not happy, just realistic. Once Weiss was elevated to SC, I never expected anything until Weiss either charges Hunter for tax related crimes or announces that he's done & will submit his report. Weiss can drag this out indefinitely until he finishes up or an AG tells him to wrap it up.