Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Brooklyn]

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm

I thought I was clear: the majority of Americans and the very clear policies of the current US government have full throatily decried Hamas' actions and are actively supporting Israel's right and duty to defend themselves, including the destruction of Hamas.

''majority'' ??

Please supply a link for proof. According to Quinnipiac, 50% approve with with the balance disapproving or of no opinion:


https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3882



Meanwhile 84% of Americans fear that this furtherance of conflict will draw the USA into yet another war (op cit). Additionally, Biden's approval ratings are dropping:


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/bi ... al-rating/

55% disapproval



"the damn is breaking" for Biden because of his policy ~ note that the news source is conservative:





If more violence breaks out and Americans are forced into combat, those numbers will get even worse for Biden.

I was just watching the liberal WCCO news this evening and it also acknowledged that tRump is ahead in state popularity ratings. The mess in Israel is a no win situation for Biden. Not that anything that goes on in that region is any of our business anyway. Perhaps if he would realize that he is president of the USA, not of some foreign power, and prioritized fixing domestic problems, his numbers would be a lot better for him.


Perhaps it would also help if those in the pro war camp would trouble themselves to enlist in the IDF. Let them make the war their problem, not ours.

[OCanada]

McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d

What did the 1st world do after 9/11? We invaded Afghanistan. Troops from all over the world. NATO went in. Even I, the biggest peacenik ever, understood that when you get attacked, you have to defend yourself.


What we're telling the Israelis in 2023 after a massive terrorist attack (still ongoing, btw) is: shut up and take it, and you better have a cease fire soon.

Pretty obvious from where I sit that Israel is going in to Gaza just like we did in Afghanistan...and ain't gonna leave.

We (Americans) do NOT hold the moral high ground here, folks. How many civilians did we kill over there over 20 years? Estimates are at 40K+, with no real number known.

You skipped Iraq and the War on Terrror. The cost of that war is about $8 trillion and close to 1 million people killed most of whom were innocents.

The world has a responsibility to make decisions and act to resolve this long intractable problem. I have read positions saying it is no longer possible to have a two state solution and ppditions arguing there can be no single state solution. Both parties for the situation the world currently faces. Failure to resolve that issue is not an option.

[old salt]

McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d

What did the 1st world do after 9/11? We invaded Afghanistan. Troops from all over the world. NATO went in. Even I, the biggest peacenik ever, understood that when you get attacked, you have to defend yourself.


What we're telling the Israelis in 2023 after a massive terrorist attack (still ongoing, btw) is: shut up and take it, and you better have a cease fire soon.

Pretty obvious from where I sit that Israel is going in to Gaza just like we did in Afghanistan...and ain't gonna leave.

We (Americans) do NOT hold the moral high ground here, folks. How many civilians did we kill over there over 20 years? Estimates are at 40K+, with no real number known.

... I would guess a significantly smaller % of Afghan civilians were killed as collateral damage than Gazan civilians. This is not to justify what we did in Afghanistan. Just calls out the fact that the situation was cleaner. Bigger country with bigger population.

Would we do the same thing in Gaza if it was ours to do, you betcha, probably worse! Would it be right?

What Israel is doing is similar to what the US, ISF & Kurdish allies did to ISIS in Iraq & Syria. Mosul ? Aleppo ?

20% of Israel's citizens are Muslim Arabs. The single state system is working for them.

[old salt]

A confused Palestinian woman crashed her car into TLD's club house.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news/cri ... 470102007/

https://www.jta.org/2023/11/06/united-s ... -be-jewish

https://www.jta.org/2023/11/06/united-s ... -be-jewish

[Farfromgeneva]

McConnell: https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov ... pIjCvOdu3d

What did the 1st world do after 9/11? We invaded Afghanistan. Troops from all over the world. NATO went in. Even I, the biggest peacenik ever, understood that when you get attacked, you have to defend yourself.


What we're telling the Israelis in 2023 after a massive terrorist attack (still ongoing, btw) is: shut up and take it, and you better have a cease fire soon.

Pretty obvious from where I sit that Israel is going in to Gaza just like we did in Afghanistan...and ain't gonna leave.

We (Americans) do NOT hold the moral high ground here, folks. How many civilians did we kill over there over 20 years? Estimates are at 40K+, with no real number known.

... I would guess a significantly smaller % of Afghans were killed as collateral damage than in Gaza. This is not to justify what we did in Afghanistan. Just calls out the fact that the situation was cleaner. Bigger country with bigger population.

Would we do the same thing in Gaza if it was ours to do, you betcha, probably worse! Would it be right?

I'm not saying right v. wrong. I'm saying: we have no standing to point fingers at Israel. Nor do all the countries and NATO for participating in the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan.

Frankly, I'd bet we killed a lot more than 40K civilians in Afghanistan. 20 years. Door to door fighting. Bad intel. All the things....

Our standing is as global cop because when we do nothing we’re aholes and aholes when get involved.

But we fund nato, we fund Israel, we keep the Saudi family in power. We choose India over Pakistan strategically etc.

None of this ever had anything to do with moral standing. That’s for Brooklyn and Old Salt to hash out as to morality vs like fact, logic and honesty and get nowhere the slow way. At least with respect to our position. This is all game theory for us. Let’s at least admit that.

[a fan]

You skipped Iraq and the War on Terrror. The cost of that war is about $8 trillion and close to 1 million people killed most of whom were innocents.

And the Gulf War. And Korea. And Vietnam. And, and and and.......

The world has a responsibility to make decisions and act to resolve this long intractable problem. I have read positions saying it is no longer possible to have a two state solution and ppditions arguing there can be no single state solution. Both parties for the situation the world currently faces. Failure to resolve that issue is not an option.

Has been an option for decades. Obvious thing is to do is send in NATO Troops to occupy Gaza. Then pump money into Gaza to build business.

[Brooklyn]

Has been an option for decades. Obvious thing is to do is send in NATO Troops to occupy Gaza. Then pump money into Gaza to build business.

Whose money?

With out homelessness problem, lack of health care, crumbling infrastructure, and mounting debt, don't use any of ours. Let's finance and resolve our own problems, thereafter we worry about anyone else.

[jhu72]

Snopes tells the story of how Gazans feel about Hamas and felt about the 2006 election.

[OCanada]

You skipped Iraq and the War on Terrror. The cost of that war is about $8 trillion and close to 1 million people killed most of whom were innocents.

And the Gulf War. And Korea. And Vietnam. And, and and and.......

The world has a responsibility to make decisions and act to resolve this long intractable problem. I have read positions saying it is no longer possible to have a two state solution and ppditions arguing there can be no single state solution. Both parties for the situation the world currently faces. Failure to resolve that issue is not an option.

Has been an option for decades. Obvious thing is to do is send in NATO Troops to occupy Gaza. Then pump money into Gaza to build business.

In theory but reality is another thing, it is not as dimple as that. Anecdotally my brother in law was a key player in Sarajevo when the UN was there. It is a very complex maze fo negotiate

[PizzaSnake]

You skipped Iraq and the War on Terrror. The cost of that war is about $8 trillion and close to 1 million people killed most of whom were innocents.

And the Gulf War. And Korea. And Vietnam. And, and and and.......

The world has a responsibility to make decisions and act to resolve this long intractable problem. I have read positions saying it is no longer possible to have a two state solution and ppditions arguing there can be no single state solution. Both parties for the situation the world currently faces. Failure to resolve that issue is not an option.

Has been an option for decades. Obvious thing is to do is send in NATO Troops to occupy Gaza. Then pump money into Gaza to build business.

“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.”

— H. L. Mencken

[MDlaxfan76]

Snopes tells the story of how Gazans feel about Hamas and felt about the 2006 election.

Thanks, very interesting. Worth the read!

[MDlaxfan76]

MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:51 pm

I thought I was clear: the majority of Americans and the very clear policies of the current US government have full throatily decried Hamas' actions and are actively supporting Israel's right and duty to defend themselves, including the destruction of Hamas.

''majority'' ??

Please supply a link for proof. According to Quinnipiac, 50% approve with with the balance disapproving or of no opinion:


https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3882



Meanwhile 84% of Americans fear that this furtherance of conflict will draw the USA into yet another war (op cit). Additionally, Biden's approval ratings are dropping:


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/bi ... al-rating/

55% disapproval



"the damn is breaking" for Biden because of his policy ~ note that the news source is conservative:





If more violence breaks out and Americans are forced into combat, those numbers will get even worse for Biden.

I was just watching the liberal WCCO news this evening and it also acknowledged that tRump is ahead in state popularity ratings. The mess in Israel is a no win situation for Biden. Not that anything that goes on in that region is any of our business anyway. Perhaps if he would realize that he is president of the USA, not of some foreign power, and prioritized fixing domestic problems, his numbers would be a lot better for him.


Perhaps it would also help if those in the pro war camp would trouble themselves to enlist in the IDF. Let them make the war their problem, not ours.

https://abcnews.go.com/538/americans-wa ... =104150059

[Brooklyn]

https://abcnews.go.com/538/americans-wa ... =104150059

Oh, I see. The date of that poll was October 24, 2023. The numbers have changed. This is understandable because, if you recall, initially it was reported that Hamas and Muslims were beheading children. People were outraged when they heard this fake news when it was repeated several times by the pro war media. Then when the truth came out that this was pro war propaganda, public sentiments (and those numbers) all changed.

Thanks for helping to clarify.

[MDlaxfan76]

https://abcnews.go.com/538/americans-wa ... =104150059

Oh, I see. The date of that poll was October 24, 2023. The numbers have changed. This is understandable because, if you recall, initially it was reported that Hamas and Muslims were beheading children. People were outraged when they heard this fake news when it was repeated several times by the pro war media. Then when the truth came out that this was pro war propaganda, public sentiments (and those numbers) all changed.

Thanks for helping to clarify.

And that's what I was describing in responding to the question that was asked about why people didn't hit the streets to protest against Hamas terror.

Two full weeks after the attack, those were the strong and clear sentiments, as they had been immediately. The Biden Admin was very strongly condemning the attacks and encouraging a muscular response, though with care.

As more and more Palestinians, including many civilians, have been killed, sentiments have shifted. It's not, however, because a majority of Americans don't continue to be horrified by the Hamas terror attack nor stopped supporting Israel's right to defend itself, but rather more concern for the plight of innocents being killed. Likewise, that's been reflected in the Biden Admin pressing for humanitarian relief.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken Hamas slaughtered children, including babies, raped women, tortured and killed civilians specifically, all with intentionality.

[Brooklyn]

And that's what I was describing in responding to the question that was asked about why people didn't hit the streets to protest against Hamas terror.

Two full weeks after the attack, those were the strong and clear sentiments, as they had been immediately. The Biden Admin was very strongly condemning the attacks and encouraging a muscular response, though with care.

As more and more Palestinians, including many civilians, have been killed, sentiments have shifted. It's not, however, because a majority of Americans don't continue to be horrified by the Hamas terror attack nor stopped supporting Israel's right to defend itself, but rather more concern for the plight of innocents being killed. Likewise, that's been reflected in the Biden Admin pressing for humanitarian relief.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken Hamas slaughtered children, including babies, raped women, tortured and killed civilians specifically, all with intentionality.

FactCheck:
Unsupported Claim of 40 Beheaded Babies

The narrator of the video says that “no evidence has been provided” for the viral claim that “40 babies” were “beheaded” by Hamas. That is true.


Unsupported Claims of Suspected Rapes

The video says that allegations of rape by Hamas militants are “false,” adding, “There is no evidence of this whatsoever.”

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what- ... ar-claims/




As always, in war truth is the first casualty.

[MDlaxfan76]

And that's what I was describing in responding to the question that was asked about why people didn't hit the streets to protest against Hamas terror.

Two full weeks after the attack, those were the strong and clear sentiments, as they had been immediately. The Biden Admin was very strongly condemning the attacks and encouraging a muscular response, though with care.

As more and more Palestinians, including many civilians, have been killed, sentiments have shifted. It's not, however, because a majority of Americans don't continue to be horrified by the Hamas terror attack nor stopped supporting Israel's right to defend itself, but rather more concern for the plight of innocents being killed. Likewise, that's been reflected in the Biden Admin pressing for humanitarian relief.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken Hamas slaughtered children, including babies, raped women, tortured and killed civilians specifically, all with intentionality.

FactCheck:
Unsupported Claim of 40 Beheaded Babies

The narrator of the video says that “no evidence has been provided” for the viral claim that “40 babies” were “beheaded” by Hamas. That is true.


Unsupported Claims of Suspected Rapes

The video says that allegations of rape by Hamas militants are “false,” adding, “There is no evidence of this whatsoever.”

https://www.factcheck.org/2023/10/what- ... ar-claims/




As always, in war truth is the first casualty.

Are you claiming that on Oct 7 Hamas terrorists didn't slaughter children?
Didn't target civilians specifically to kill, rape, torture, take hostage?
Purposely, intentionally?

Did you bother to read that second link?

The video also claimed that the 250 young people at the concert weren't killed...you believe that one too???

[Brooklyn]

Are you claiming that on Oct 7 Hamas terrorists didn't slaughter children?
Didn't target civilians specifically to kill, rape, torture, take hostage?
Purposely, intentionally?

Did you bother to read that second link?

The video also claimed that the 250 young people at the concert weren't killed...you believe that one too???

It's the old story quoting Will Rogers, all I know is what I read in the newspapers. Truth is always the first casualty.
As you can see there is no evidence of rape or of child beheadings. As for what constitutes facts, not being there I cannot answer your queries. It would be best of your directed your questions to that source.

[MDlaxfan76]

Are you claiming that on Oct 7 Hamas terrorists didn't slaughter children?
Didn't target civilians specifically to kill, rape, torture, take hostage?
Purposely, intentionally?

Did you bother to read that second link?

The video also claimed that the 250 young people at the concert weren't killed...you believe that one too???

It's the old story quoting Will Rogers, all I know is what I read in the newspapers. Truth is always the first casualty.
As you can see there is no evidence of rape or of child beheadings. As for what constitutes facts, not being there I cannot answer your queries. It would be best of your directed your questions to that source.

It's your link, Brooklyn, did you actually read it? or just find one or two sentences repeating a quite debunked video's 'claims' before addressing each in turn?

Yes, there's evidence of rapes. Yes there's evidence of the slaughter of children.
Even beheadings, apparently, though, as explained in the text, the "40" was an incorrect conflation with another report. Not clear exactly how many, but not zero. Likewise, there's no confirmed exact number of rapes, but multiple eyewitnesses, film of attacks, etc. Non-zero.

The video makes multiple false claims, some easily proven as false, eg the slaughter at the concert. It is easily discarded as a credible source of truth.

And yet you are choosing to take it as credible, denying the reality of the intentional, specific slaughter of civilians by Hamas terrorists?

[a fan]

You skipped Iraq and the War on Terrror. The cost of that war is about $8 trillion and close to 1 million people killed most of whom were innocents.

And the Gulf War. And Korea. And Vietnam. And, and and and.......

The world has a responsibility to make decisions and act to resolve this long intractable problem. I have read positions saying it is no longer possible to have a two state solution and ppditions arguing there can be no single state solution. Both parties for the situation the world currently faces. Failure to resolve that issue is not an option.

Has been an option for decades. Obvious thing is to do is send in NATO Troops to occupy Gaza. Then pump money into Gaza to build business.

In theory but reality is another thing, it is not as dimple as that. Anecdotally my brother in law was a key player in Sarajevo when the UN was there. It is a very complex maze fo negotiate

Yes, it's very complex. Anyone have any better ideas?

Because if you all haven't figure it out yet, Israel is in the first stage of the Afghan war........they intend to occupy Gaza like we did in Afgahanistan.

[a fan]

You skipped Iraq and the War on Terrror. The cost of that war is about $8 trillion and close to 1 million people killed most of whom were innocents.

And the Gulf War. And Korea. And Vietnam. And, and and and.......

The world has a responsibility to make decisions and act to resolve this long intractable problem. I have read positions saying it is no longer possible to have a two state solution and ppditions arguing there can be no single state solution. Both parties for the situation the world currently faces. Failure to resolve that issue is not an option.

Has been an option for decades. Obvious thing is to do is send in NATO Troops to occupy Gaza. Then pump money into Gaza to build business.

“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.”

— H. L. Mencken

Got any better ideas? I don't.