Sensible Gun Safety

[Seacoaster(1)]

The way this country is headed- with these shootings, crime up, police response down, the general civil unrest, and the forever memory/legacy of actions by BLM, proud boys, KKK, Black Panthers, and Antifa, no one is giving up their guns anytime soon.

And unless the government wants to ramp up civil unrest even more, they have no good way to confiscate.

Completely agree. As noted, the only thing that changes after each "incident" is that the clock goes back to zero and starts counting to the next one. Aint nuthin' gonna change.
Thoughts and prayers.

Some relevant facts in this case -
Suspect was institutionalized for two weeks this past summer. Claimed to be "hearing voices"
Suspect and family were known vocal 2nd amendment supporters. I'll wager authorities will find LOTS of firearms and ammo at his residence and in possession of other family members.

Police questioned suspect over recent threats to shoot up a national guard facility in Saco ME.

It should not be a surprise to anyone at the way this unfolded.

NOTHING was done (or likely possible given current state of law in this country) and now we have 18 dead people and searching locations which may include multiple adjacent states and even Canada whose border is 2 hours away.

Welcome to the USA where there are more firearms than people where we CHOOSE in this manner and keep electing people who wish to perpetuate this insanity.

How do the elected perpetuate it? Seems like there are plenty of criminal murder and firearm control laws on the books that are bent at deterring these things. Seems like an enforcement issue to me. People who commit these crimes and others are often mentally ill. Prisons are full of people who know there are serious consequences and act bad anyway. What additional laws do you propose Maine and other states add to the books that will suddenly stop this?

Federal Law
Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”

Maine
Under 15 M.R.S. § 393, a person may not own, possess, or have under that person’s control a firearm, unless that person has obtained a permit under this section, if that person: Has been found not criminally responsible by reason of insanity of committing certain enumerated crimes.

https://www.ncsl.org/civil-and-criminal ... al-illness

I think we have to create a legal regime in which there are serious consequences for getting a gun into the hands of a mentally ill person. We need Red Flag laws. Etc. Etc. We are not disarming people.

You've written a decent amount here about your disdain for extreme authoritarianism and "fascism" under Trump.

This sounds like it's in conflict with those thoughts. And perhaps leaning towards the "thought police."

There are a lot in place. What type of red flags do you propose could work better??

And more importantly, How do you make this work under the constitution? And who is going to enforce and do the disarming? The defunded police? A smooth-talking de-escalator or mental-health-conscious social worker? It also is highly likely to fail because it relies mostly on "see something, say something."

https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/g ... g-gun-law/

I think you missed something; look above. I said "We are not disarming people." I am suggesting a perfectly reasonable legal regime akin to selling and owning and driving and being responsible for a car.

[kramerica.inc]

I was thinking of the red flag laws out there that rely on temporary removal of possession.
You mean more strict rules for ownership or to purchase/transfer?

I agree that illegal ownership/transfer and possession should be enforced and havily penalized. As well as ensuring
ghost guns are not a thing. But that doesn't jibe with either side's politics.

[PizzaSnake]

How many years with this same discussion?
The only change will be that the clock begins
anew and counts down to the next bloodbath.
We love our guns and are willing to have an
occasional massacre in the name of the 2nd
amendment to keep 'em. Proof is in the pudding.
Thoughts and prayers.

“Tots and pears.”

[youthathletics]

Yesterday in California:

[Seacoaster(1)]

I was thinking of the red flag laws out there that rely on temporary removal of possession.
You mean more strict rules for ownership or to purchase/transfer?

I agree that illegal ownership/transfer and possession should be enforced and havily penalized. As well as ensuring
ghost guns are not a thing. But that doesn't jibe with either side's politics.

Maybe the problem is so extreme that the solution has to be post-political. I get it; you guys don't want to solve the problems in the direction that impeded unfettered ownership. Great; we will all be armed and sitting in our homes with guns to hand in every room. Terrific.

[njbill]

How many years with this same discussion?
The only change will be that the clock begins
anew and counts down to the next bloodbath.
We love our guns and are willing to have an
occasional massacre in the name of the 2nd
amendment to keep 'em. Proof is in the pudding.
Thoughts and prayers.

I'm just sick and tired of the 2A excuse. The 21st repealed the 18th. Let's have a 28th repeal, or at least revise, the 2nd.

Australia revised their gun laws and murders/suicides plummeted. We can do the same.

We don’t need to repeal the Second Amendment, which is simply not politically possible. What we need is for the Supreme Court to reverse Heller. Yes, won’t happen under this court, but I am confident it will happen at some point in the future. It is as wrong, and as bad, a decision as the Supreme Court has ever made, absent a couple of racially motivated ones.

That would only be a start, but a big one. States and communities could enact very strict gun laws if that is what the citizens in those places wanted. If New Jersey wanted to have extremely strict laws, they should be able to enact them. If, say, Texas, wants less restrictive laws, OK.

Over top of that, Congress should be able to enact any laws they want to apply to the country as a whole.

[ggait]

2A is not an actual legal problem.

It is just a forking BS fake rallying cry for fat white bubbas who like to cling to their AR-15s to make up for their small dicks and loser lives. Those guys are such dopes they can't figure out how badly they get played by NRA, gun makers and the MAGAs. Totally brainwashed idiots.

We had an AWB in place for 10 years. Bi-partisan support. Including Ronald Reagan, who almost died because of a nut job with a gun. GWB supported the AWB as part of his 2000 election platform. No legal or political problems back then.

But you know, a crazy guy like this could do just as much damage with a knife. Or a baseball bat. And he could always make his own ghost hand gun with a 3D printer. GMAFB.

TBD how many kids were killed -- the bowling alley was having a youth night.

Fork all of you needle dick AR 15 jerk owners. You're fine with this unless/until the shooter comes for you or your kids. Disgraceful.

[PizzaSnake]

2A is not an actual legal problem.

It is just a forking BS fake rallying cry for fat white bubbas who like to cling to their AR-15s to make up for their small dicks and loser lives. Those guys are such dopes they can't figure out how badly they get played by NRA, gun makers and the MAGAs. Totally brainwashed idiots.

We had an AWB in place for 10 years. Bi-partisan support. Including Ronald Reagan, who almost died because of a nut job with a gun. GWB supported the AWB as part of his 2000 election platform. No legal or political problems back then.

But you know, a crazy guy like this could do just as much damage with a knife. Or a baseball bat. And he could always make his own ghost hand gun with a 3D printer. GMAFB.

TBD how many kids were killed -- the bowling alley was having a youth night.

Fork all of you needle dick AR 15 jerk owners. You're fine with this unless/until the shooter comes for you or your kids. Disgraceful.

The men are a lost cause. Deplorable, even.

Hope rests on women coming to their senses and not voting Magat. After all, it is their children that are dying.

[Kismet]

Rep. Jared Golden of ME (who represents Lewiston and has been a long-time anti-gun control advocate) just announced he has had a change of heart and will now actively support an assault weapons ban. Wimpy Sen. Collins doesn't support same but thinks banning high capacity magazines is the answer.

[ggait]

Rep. Jared Golden of ME (who represents Lewiston and has been a long-time anti-gun control advocate) just announced he has had a change of heart and will now actively support an assault weapons ban. Wimpy Sen. Collins doesn't support same but thinks banning high capacity magazines is the answer.

Golden is a Dem. So his late conversion is pretty pathetic. What -- you never thought about this until some whacko shoots up your district with an AR 15? You think ARs are fine so long as they are used to slaughter people in CA, TX, NY, CO and elsewhere? Fork you loser.

And Collins is just a pathetic profile in cowardice. A disgraceful weasel. "Oh I'm sooo very concerned. But I never do shirt. And Brent Kavanaugh lied to me!!" Fork her too.

[cradleandshoot]

Rep. Jared Golden of ME (who represents Lewiston and has been a long-time anti-gun control advocate) just announced he has had a change of heart and will now actively support an assault weapons ban. Wimpy Sen. Collins doesn't support same but thinks banning high capacity magazines is the answer.

Golden is a Dem. So his late conversion is pretty pathetic. What -- you never thought about this until some whacko shoots up your district with an AR 15? You think ARs are fine so long as they are used to slaughter people in CA, TX, NY, CO and elsewhere? Fork you loser.

And Collins is just a pathetic profile in cowardice. A disgraceful weasel. "Oh I'm sooo very concerned. But I never do shirt. And Brent Kavanaugh lied to me!!" Fork her too.

You need to put down the crack pipe counselor.

[cradleandshoot]

The way this country is headed- with these shootings, crime up, police response down, the general civil unrest, and the forever memory/legacy of actions by BLM, proud boys, KKK, Black Panthers, and Antifa, no one is giving up their guns anytime soon.

And unless the government wants to ramp up civil unrest even more, they have no good way to confiscate.

Completely agree. As noted, the only thing that changes after each "incident" is that the clock goes back to zero and starts counting to the next one. Aint nuthin' gonna change.
Thoughts and prayers.

Some relevant facts in this case -
Suspect was institutionalized for two weeks this past summer. Claimed to be "hearing voices"
Suspect and family were known vocal 2nd amendment supporters. I'll wager authorities will find LOTS of firearms and ammo at his residence and in possession of other family members.

Police questioned suspect over recent threats to shoot up a national guard facility in Saco ME.

It should not be a surprise to anyone at the way this unfolded.

NOTHING was done (or likely possible given current state of law in this country) and now we have 18 dead people and searching locations which may include multiple adjacent states and even Canada whose border is 2 hours away.

Welcome to the USA where there are more firearms than people where we CHOOSE in this manner and keep electing people who wish to perpetuate this insanity.

How do the elected perpetuate it? Seems like there are plenty of criminal murder and firearm control laws on the books that are bent at deterring these things. Seems like an enforcement issue to me. People who commit these crimes and others are often mentally ill. Prisons are full of people who know there are serious consequences and act bad anyway. What additional laws do you propose Maine and other states add to the books that will suddenly stop this?

Federal Law
Under 18 U.S.C. § 922(d), it is unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person “has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution.”

Maine
Under 15 M.R.S. § 393, a person may not own, possess, or have under that person’s control a firearm, unless that person has obtained a permit under this section, if that person: Has been found not criminally responsible by reason of insanity of committing certain enumerated crimes.

https://www.ncsl.org/civil-and-criminal ... al-illness

I think we have to create a legal regime in which there are serious consequences for getting a gun into the hands of a mentally ill person. We need Red Flag laws. Etc. Etc. We are not disarming people.

The devil is in the details. This now involves an individuals doctor and how you circumvent HIPAA laws. If an individual is found mentally unstable to own a firearm what are his/her legal remedy to prove they now possess the legal faculty to own a weapon? Are red flag laws only designed to be one directional? The government can revoke your 2nd amendment rights with no intention of giving them back.

As I said before-----move to single payer healthcare, and invest in mental health.

Separate the person from the guns, not the guns from the person. Easier to do, legally. We just have to have places to put these people who need help.

Right now? America doesn't have that. It's worth the spend.

Other than that? These shootings will simply get more frequent. We had 2 mass shootings a day this year. Don't know what needs to happen to get Congress do act.

Still doesn't address the problem with violating Federal HIPAA laws. Doctors are being put into a bad situation. Their patients expect confidentiality on what they discuss as doctor/patient.

Change the laws.

This is the only viable solution at hand. The guns will go nowhere....we have to address the problem somewhere else.

Your talking common sense in a world where HIPAA is the medical law of the land. Any medical professional that knowingly violates HIPAA is in a world of chit. If these folks don't have the same privacy rights as any other patient they won't confide in their doctors. You tell me what a doctor is suppose to do? The army docs had this shooter in a mental hospital. Two weeks later and he was good to go.

[ggait]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

[cradleandshoot]

Dealing with mental health issues is really hard. If you have had that in your family and life, you know how intractable those issues are. Even with treatment, which this guy had.

But you know what is really forking easy?

Get rid of the forking mssa rifles. Just don’t be a creepy coward a hole in congress bought and paid for by the nihilist creeps of the nra.

I don’t see anyone slaughtering 18 innocents with a hand gun or butcher knives.

JFC — Ronald forking Reagan thought the awb was a good idea.

PS — you know, they have crazy people in other countries too. But they don’t have mass shootings like we do. Why? Because they don’t have the forking MSSAs floating around like we do. Duh.

We have mass shootings in this country every god damn night. The numbers don't grab headlines with fat ass white liberals. If a few young black kids are shot to death with ILLEGAL WEAPONS every night NBD. BTW there you pint size legal beagle...explain how confiscating legally purchased rifles will be easy?? It would be about as easy as getting ILLEGAL WEAPONS off of the streets.

[youthathletics]

Coming to a town near you, or your town. It's not a question of the size or location of the city or town; it is a question of a mentally ill person's access to weapons...in a country in which access to weapons is essentially unhindered. Lewiston is a town of about 34,000, includes Bates College. Over 20 dead and 60 injured are numbers that will reverberate in nearly every home there. The Second Amendment has been overrun any kind of balance against the right to just go bowling, go to church, the movies, Walmart, high school, college, the workplace. What on earth is wrong with us?

Not picking a fight here. Just exercising more futility. Is your deduction that b/c we have so many mentally ill people in the world that we do not know what to do with them, then we should abolish all firearms? It really comes down to that decision, then if you want to build back out from there, you have to pick and choose how to maintain & balance the two equations.

Identifying, treating, and following up with the mentally ill infringes on so many more personal rights, far outweighing the simple 2A infringement discussions. Follow that up with simple mental health definitions of trauma, where personal trauma is received in our brains the very same way in each of us, regardless of significance, how we respond is then uniquely different in each of us. Some want vengeance, another may simply grieve and forgive, and another may laugh it off. As an aside, I spend a great deal of time listening to podcasts on psychology, philosophy, and the life of military operators. And what I have come to learn is that there are upwards of 50 military suicides/day, compared to ~130 total for the entire US. And when you listen to many of these ex-military folks speak, there is very little mental support given to them during their time serving, and essentially none upon separation....other than written prescriptions which often exacerbates the problem. There are now many non-profits of ex-military folks offering these services on their own to support vets....as the VA just pushes pills.

Full circle, how do we help the mentally ill in our country?

More on the military suicide rates, just came out yesterday: https://news.usni.org/2023/10/26/marine ... ore-106542

[Typical Lax Dad]

Coming to a town near you, or your town. It's not a question of the size or location of the city or town; it is a question of a mentally ill person's access to weapons...in a country in which access to weapons is essentially unhindered. Lewiston is a town of about 34,000, includes Bates College. Over 20 dead and 60 injured are numbers that will reverberate in nearly every home there. The Second Amendment has been overrun any kind of balance against the right to just go bowling, go to church, the movies, Walmart, high school, college, the workplace. What on earth is wrong with us?

Not picking a fight here. Just exercising more futility. Is your deduction that b/c we have so many mentally ill people in the world that we do not know what to do with them, then we should abolish all firearms? It really comes down to that decision, then if you want to build back out from there, you have to pick and choose how to maintain & balance the two equations.

Identifying, treating, and following up with the mentally ill infringes on so many more personal rights, far outweighing the simple 2A infringement discussions. Follow that up with simple mental health definitions of trauma, where personal trauma is received in our brains the very same way in each of us, regardless of significance, how we respond is then uniquely different in each of us. Some want vengeance, another may simply grieve and forgive, and another may laugh it off. As an aside, I spend a great deal of time listening to podcasts on psychology, philosophy, and the life of military operators. And what I have come to learn is that there are upwards of 50 military suicides/day, compared to ~130 total for the entire US. And when you listen to many of these ex-military folks speak, there is very little mental support given to them during their time serving, and essentially none upon separation....other than written prescriptions which often exacerbates the problem. There are now many non-profits of ex-military folks offering these services on their own to support vets....as the VA just pushes pills.

Full circle, how do we help the mentally ill in our country?

More on the military suicide rates, just came out yesterday: https://news.usni.org/2023/10/26/marine ... ore-106542

I had mentioned a few times that my wife’s cousin was hired to study military suicides. DoD was so concerned that the department commissioned a study. She told us these families were devastated and it was very depressing work.

[MDlaxfan76]

Here's a study which ignores contribution of gun differential by nation, focuses on healthcare spending:
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/press- ... ng-wealthy

Note, the US is in the top 10 in suicides per 100k, the only developed country, the only "Western" nation.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

The only Western nation awash in guns.

And we spend much, more per capita on healthcare.
However, we don't spend on prevention, whether disease or mental health, we spend on high tech...

[kramerica.inc]

I was thinking of the red flag laws out there that rely on temporary removal of possession.
You mean more strict rules for ownership or to purchase/transfer?

I agree that illegal ownership/transfer and possession should be enforced and havily penalized. As well as ensuring
ghost guns are not a thing. But that doesn't jibe with either side's politics.

Maybe the problem is so extreme that the solution has to be post-political. I get it; you guys don't want to solve the problems in the direction that impeded unfettered ownership. Great; we will all be armed and sitting in our homes with guns to hand in every room. Terrific.

Do you also "get" that "you guys" don't want to REALLY enforce the laws that are on the books, take a harder stance, OR increase penalties for illegal activity, use, ownership and transfer?

Great; shootings will continue unfettered in every home and community around the country. Terrific.

[youthathletics]

I was thinking of the red flag laws out there that rely on temporary removal of possession.
You mean more strict rules for ownership or to purchase/transfer?

I agree that illegal ownership/transfer and possession should be enforced and havily penalized. As well as ensuring
ghost guns are not a thing. But that doesn't jibe with either side's politics.

Maybe the problem is so extreme that the solution has to be post-political. I get it; you guys don't want to solve the problems in the direction that impeded unfettered ownership. Great; we will all be armed and sitting in our homes with guns to hand in every room. Terrific.

Do you also "get" that "you guys" don't want to REALLY enforce the laws that are on the books, take a harder stance, OR increase penalties for illegal activity, use, ownership and transfer?

Great; shootings will continue unfettered in every home and community around the country. Terrific.

+1

The revolving door only perpetuates bad behavior and continued missed opportunities to treat mental health.

[MDlaxfan76]

I was thinking of the red flag laws out there that rely on temporary removal of possession.
You mean more strict rules for ownership or to purchase/transfer?

I agree that illegal ownership/transfer and possession should be enforced and havily penalized. As well as ensuring
ghost guns are not a thing. But that doesn't jibe with either side's politics.

Maybe the problem is so extreme that the solution has to be post-political. I get it; you guys don't want to solve the problems in the direction that impeded unfettered ownership. Great; we will all be armed and sitting in our homes with guns to hand in every room. Terrific.

Do you also "get" that "you guys" don't want to REALLY enforce the laws that are on the books, take a harder stance, OR increase penalties for illegal activity, use, ownership and transfer?

Great; shootings will continue unfettered in every home and community around the country. Terrific.

can't speak for seacoaster, but I imagine he agrees that the right wing doesn't want to enforce existing law against themselves and the lobbyists who fund their campaigns. Nor tougher laws, even the most reasonable such.

This is a 70+% issue in America, yet the 30% have the reins.