Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Baducchi]

who is your Bob Probert, mr Domi?

should be obvious.

[Farfromgeneva]

... we're all imperfect and evil can exist among us at times...

If you commit a violent act and feel and express regret, that's not evil. that's a mistake. that is not what were looking at with hamas (who was duly elected by the gazans), some palestinians, and other terrorist groups. evil does not exist under my roof and i'm going to guess it doesn't exist under your roof either. evil is a big word. a terrible word. and it is very real.

I have to express skepticism about Netanyahu with respect to the definition above. At a minimum his sense of proportionality leaves a world to be desired.

[PizzaSnake]

1.yes And that's why I'm trying to get to the truth. If you can help me. I understand Hamas didn't cut of their heads. That's a truth casualty. But how did Hamas kill the Jewish babies? If you know...
2.I don't know if that's the best example. The Jews went to war repeatedly and they didn't murder babies, nor women and animals, which is why G-d telling Saul to do this was so unique. A unique demand from G-d because the Amalakites were a unique people. To this day, Jews have enemies from the past through to the present and then there's amalek. totally different animal. so G-d wanted Saul to 100% remove amalek from this world. And even with this explicit demand, Saul didn't do it. And he's punished for it. Loses his kingship. brooklyn, what i'm saying is that your example is an example of the opposite of what you're proposing. an example of the jews inability to kill babies. i might be missing something but it seems like the jews using non-jewish babies' blood for their matza is as credible as... the Jewish bible permits the killing of non-jewish babies. but wehatever. potato, potahto. beheaded a baby, slitting a baby's throat (but not beheading it). but, brooklyn, i do have to say, it strikes me as odd that *very recently*, hamas has performed innumerable atrocities, including murdering a baby and, to this, you say, Casualties of the truth! And then you quickly follow-up with a thousands year old text (that you're misinterpretting) to accuse the Jews of literally the same atrocity that was just done by hamas. does this not strike you as starnge?

I only know as much as you do. Sadly, we don't know (and may possibly never know) the full truth.

Re the killing of babies, you might recall that Saddam allegedly did so in incubators. The story was discredited but the myth of his doing so remained a topic of conversation for years to come. Yes we know Hamas is far from innocent. But this is equally true of Israel's government. As for that matza blood libel myth, yuck, not an issue but a stereotype that should be erased from history forever. Regarding the Bible I posted that just to prove a point that it was permitted back then. However, Koranic law is eminently clear that killing infants is strictly prohibited ("Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man."

So...obviously, "Islamic" terrorists regularly violate that particular passage in the Koran.
...As these Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists did as well...on purpose, specifically, civilians. All ages, genders, etc. Brutal murder.

Pretty sure there are strong prohibitions against murder in the Old Testament too.

While I'd agree that the Israeli government is not "innocent", I don't believe that as a policy matter the Israeli government nor Israeli citizens as a rule countenance or celebrate the intentional murder of civilians or any background.

There IS a moral difference.

IMO, that matters, though is not sufficient.

re Saddam, I'd never heard that rumor, but in our age of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies, I'm not surprised that such would circulate among some.

My wife and I bought tickets to a speaking event back in August and the event was last night. There were 3 or 4 events I was interested in and incredibly, the guy that spoke last night could not have been more timely in his discussion….. the speaker was Art Spiegelman. It was a fantastic discussion. He talked about misinformation….he talked about his book Maus being banned in a Tennessee school district….he talked about the conflict in Israel….he talked about the “othering” of people. A very provocative discussion and so timely.

Interestingly, the human tendency to "sort," i.e. observe and make distinction, is a key to our success as a species. The downside is when it is used indiscriminately and without self-reflection and correction it can result in horrific consequences.

The fruits of our greatness contain the seeds of our destruction.

[Typical Lax Dad]

1.yes And that's why I'm trying to get to the truth. If you can help me. I understand Hamas didn't cut of their heads. That's a truth casualty. But how did Hamas kill the Jewish babies? If you know...
2.I don't know if that's the best example. The Jews went to war repeatedly and they didn't murder babies, nor women and animals, which is why G-d telling Saul to do this was so unique. A unique demand from G-d because the Amalakites were a unique people. To this day, Jews have enemies from the past through to the present and then there's amalek. totally different animal. so G-d wanted Saul to 100% remove amalek from this world. And even with this explicit demand, Saul didn't do it. And he's punished for it. Loses his kingship. brooklyn, what i'm saying is that your example is an example of the opposite of what you're proposing. an example of the jews inability to kill babies. i might be missing something but it seems like the jews using non-jewish babies' blood for their matza is as credible as... the Jewish bible permits the killing of non-jewish babies. but wehatever. potato, potahto. beheaded a baby, slitting a baby's throat (but not beheading it). but, brooklyn, i do have to say, it strikes me as odd that *very recently*, hamas has performed innumerable atrocities, including murdering a baby and, to this, you say, Casualties of the truth! And then you quickly follow-up with a thousands year old text (that you're misinterpretting) to accuse the Jews of literally the same atrocity that was just done by hamas. does this not strike you as starnge?

I only know as much as you do. Sadly, we don't know (and may possibly never know) the full truth.

Re the killing of babies, you might recall that Saddam allegedly did so in incubators. The story was discredited but the myth of his doing so remained a topic of conversation for years to come. Yes we know Hamas is far from innocent. But this is equally true of Israel's government. As for that matza blood libel myth, yuck, not an issue but a stereotype that should be erased from history forever. Regarding the Bible I posted that just to prove a point that it was permitted back then. However, Koranic law is eminently clear that killing infants is strictly prohibited ("Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man."

So...obviously, "Islamic" terrorists regularly violate that particular passage in the Koran.
...As these Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists did as well...on purpose, specifically, civilians. All ages, genders, etc. Brutal murder.

Pretty sure there are strong prohibitions against murder in the Old Testament too.

While I'd agree that the Israeli government is not "innocent", I don't believe that as a policy matter the Israeli government nor Israeli citizens as a rule countenance or celebrate the intentional murder of civilians or any background.

There IS a moral difference.

IMO, that matters, though is not sufficient.

re Saddam, I'd never heard that rumor, but in our age of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies, I'm not surprised that such would circulate among some.

My wife and I bought tickets to a speaking event back in August and the event was last night. There were 3 or 4 events I was interested in and incredibly, the guy that spoke last night could not have been more timely in his discussion….. the speaker was Art Spiegelman. It was a fantastic discussion. He talked about misinformation….he talked about his book Maus being banned in a Tennessee school district….he talked about the conflict in Israel….he talked about the “othering” of people. A very provocative discussion and so timely.

Interestingly, the human tendency to "sort," i.e. observe and make distinction, is a key to our success as a species. The downside is when it is used indiscriminately and without self-reflection and correction it can result in horrific consequences.

The fruits of our greatness contain the seeds of our destruction.

This is true. Our differences is what makes us great. It’s also what makes us “American”. “Othering” as a means to dehumanize is problematic.

[Brooklyn]

...But you must understand that it exists because of foreign invasion and imperialism. After all, if some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own, What the heck would you do? Just sit there and applaud him?...

foreign invasion and imperialism. hahahahah the Jews were living in israel in the same way that the palestinians were living in israel. the brits were the owners of this house that the jews "broke into". not the palestinians. and this happened 75 years ago. israel is a nation. a real nation. a jewish state. get over it. move on.

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Albert%20E ... 0Nakba.htm

[Baducchi]

...But you must understand that it exists because of foreign invasion and imperialism. After all, if some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own, What the heck would you do? Just sit there and applaud him?...

foreign invasion and imperialism. hahahahah the Jews were living in israel in the same way that the palestinians were living in israel. the brits were the owners of this house that the jews "broke into". not the palestinians. and this happened 75 years ago. israel is a nation. a real nation. a jewish state. get over it. move on.

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Albert%20E ... 0Nakba.htm

yes. einstein and other jews wanted the brits to continue to be the purveyors of israel. it easn't a bad idea. the problem was the large number of (especially post-holocaust) jews that needed somewhere to go and the brits weren't allowing them into israel. this doesn't change anything i said above. again, the house you speak of was the brits, not the palestinians. the jews needed a home. they fought. the brits walked away. the jews/israelis took over. again, the jews and the brits. how does a group of jews wanting the brits to continbue to hold onto and govern the land translate to "some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own"?

[Seacoaster(1)]

...But you must understand that it exists because of foreign invasion and imperialism. After all, if some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own, What the heck would you do? Just sit there and applaud him?...

foreign invasion and imperialism. hahahahah the Jews were living in israel in the same way that the palestinians were living in israel. the brits were the owners of this house that the jews "broke into". not the palestinians. and this happened 75 years ago. israel is a nation. a real nation. a jewish state. get over it. move on.

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Albert%20E ... 0Nakba.htm

yes. einstein and other jews wanted the brits to continue to be the purveyors of israel. it easn't a bad idea. the problem was the large number of (especially post-holocaust) jews that needed somewhere to go and the brits weren't allowing them into israel. this doesn't change anything i said above. again, the house you speak of was the brits, not the palestinians. the jews needed a home. they fought. the brits walked away. the jews/israelis took over. again, the jews and the brits. how does a group of jews wanting the brits to continbue to hold onto and govern the land translate to "some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own"?

Respectfully, this stuff just demonstrates the lack of usefulness of this sort of debate. Israel is a nation, a collection of people under a recognized government, who deserve to be free from harm, to say nothing of the atrocities visited upon them in the last weeks. Palestinians are a people, ill-served by the folks purporting to lead them. But a people nonetheless, with a right of self-determination and everything else that humanity offers. We are in the here and now, whatever happened with Balfour or Abraham or Pharaoh or Moses.

[PizzaSnake]

...But you must understand that it exists because of foreign invasion and imperialism. After all, if some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own, What the heck would you do? Just sit there and applaud him?...

foreign invasion and imperialism. hahahahah the Jews were living in israel in the same way that the palestinians were living in israel. the brits were the owners of this house that the jews "broke into". not the palestinians. and this happened 75 years ago. israel is a nation. a real nation. a jewish state. get over it. move on.

http://www.thehypertexts.com/Albert%20E ... 0Nakba.htm

yes. einstein and other jews wanted the brits to continue to be the purveyors of israel. it easn't a bad idea. the problem was the large number of (especially post-holocaust) jews that needed somewhere to go and the brits weren't allowing them into israel. this doesn't change anything i said above. again, the house you speak of was the brits, not the palestinians. the jews needed a home. they fought. the brits walked away. the jews/israelis took over. again, the jews and the brits. how does a group of jews wanting the brits to continbue to hold onto and govern the land translate to "some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own"?

Respectfully, this stuff just demonstrates the lack of usefulness of this sort of debate. Israel is a nation, a collection of people under a recognized government, who deserve to be free from harm, to say nothing of the atrocities visited upon them in the last weeks. Palestinians are a people, ill-served by the folks purporting to lead them. But a people nonetheless, with a right of self-determination and everything else that humanity offers. We are in the here and now, whatever happened with Balfour or Abraham or Pharaoh or Moses.

Exactly. Enough with the coulda, woulda, shoulda. What is to be done to further this objective, which should be relatively easy for everyone to agree on: "But a people nonetheless, with a right of self-determination and everything else that humanity offers."?

The US has a lot of space and a need to balance the demographic "books" by means other than "forced birth" mandates. How about we "shut up and put up" and welcome the Palestinian people to join the "United States" and give them territory within the vast Federal holdings? Not as a separate political entity, but as part of the happy, heterogeneous amalgamation that is the US.

[Baducchi]

Respectfully, this stuff just demonstrates the lack of usefulness of this sort of debate. Israel is a nation, a collection of people under a recognized government, who deserve to be free from harm, to say nothing of the atrocities visited upon them in the last weeks. Palestinians are a people, ill-served by the folks purporting to lead them. But a people nonetheless, with a right of self-determination and everything else that humanity offers. We are in the here and now, whatever happened with Balfour or Abraham or Pharaoh or Moses.

sea, amen. i have no interest in discussing what happened almost a century ago. my interest is what happened last week. my interest is today. but when a poster is using a letter to the editor from 75 years ago as a justification for over-the-top, deplorable behaviors that happened last week, what is anyone supposed to do. it's a relationship where one person says, you murdered my baby last week! and the other says, yeah but 75 years ago! it's insane...

[Baducchi]

...How about we "shut up and put up" and welcome the Palestinian people to join the "United States" and give them territory within the vast Federal holdings? Not as a separate political entity, but as part of the happy, heterogeneous amalgamation that is the US.

pizza, before you sign anything, be aware that hamas hates the west, hates america, almost as much as they hate the jews. and that hamas currently is entwined with the palestinians. buyer beware.

[Brooklyn]

yes. einstein and other jews wanted the brits to continue to be the purveyors of israel. it easn't a bad idea. the problem was the large number of (especially post-holocaust) jews that needed somewhere to go and the brits weren't allowing them into israel. this doesn't change anything i said above. again, the house you speak of was the brits, not the palestinians. the jews needed a home. they fought. the brits walked away. the jews/israelis took over. again, the jews and the brits. how does a group of jews wanting the brits to continbue to hold onto and govern the land translate to "some one broke into your house, usurped and proclaimed it as his own"?

"Brits"

It wasn't their land to give.

We've had all those old "Columbus discovered America" (as if there hadn't been anyone else here before him) arguments in the past but it doesn't quite wash. Aside from all those arguments, the rejected one state solution still stands as it has for the past 60 years. That is why peace doesn't exist there.

[Baducchi]

"Brits" It wasn't their land to give. We've had all those old "Columbus discovered America" (as if there hadn't been anyone else here before him) arguments in the past but it doesn't quite wash. Aside from all those arguments, the rejected one state solution still stands as it has for the past 60 years. That is why peace doesn't exist there.

if it's not the brits, it's the palestinians, why is it any more the palistinians than the jews or any of the other peoples lving on the land? why is it specifically the palestinians?

hamas is not fighting for rightsg fo the palestinians. hamas' expressed mission is the destruction of israel. that being the case, how is there a two state solution?

[PizzaSnake]

...How about we "shut up and put up" and welcome the Palestinian people to join the "United States" and give them territory within the vast Federal holdings? Not as a separate political entity, but as part of the happy, heterogeneous amalgamation that is the US.

pizza, before you sign anything, be aware that hamas hates the west, hates america, almost as much as they hate the jews. and that hamas currently is entwined with the palestinians. buyer beware.

Who said anything about welcoming Hamas? They have proven, shall we say, to be untrustworthy and irredeemable.

No, the offer is for the Palestinian people, most specifically the children. Want to obviate the Hamas problem? Solve it demographically and let justice and age take it’s course with the embittered “adults.”

Kill the ideology of hate with kindness, ‘cause the current approach ain’t working. Time to try something new if we don’t like the results thus far.

[Baducchi]

Who said anything about welcoming Hamas? They have proven, shall we say, to be untrustworthy and irredeemable. No, the offer is for the Palestinian people, most specifically the children...

Not so simple. hamas and palestinians are not the same but most certainly entwined.

[PizzaSnake]

Who said anything about welcoming Hamas? They have proven, shall we say, to be untrustworthy and irredeemable. No, the offer is for the Palestinian people, most specifically the children...

Not so simple. hamas and palestinians are not the same but most certainly entwined.

Don't like my plan? Then what is yours? Keep on keepin' on?

I'll pass on that course of action, thank you.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Who said anything about welcoming Hamas? They have proven, shall we say, to be untrustworthy and irredeemable. No, the offer is for the Palestinian people, most specifically the children...

Not so simple. hamas and palestinians are not the same but most certainly entwined.

Who else should not be welcomed here?

[Farfromgeneva]

1.yes And that's why I'm trying to get to the truth. If you can help me. I understand Hamas didn't cut of their heads. That's a truth casualty. But how did Hamas kill the Jewish babies? If you know...
2.I don't know if that's the best example. The Jews went to war repeatedly and they didn't murder babies, nor women and animals, which is why G-d telling Saul to do this was so unique. A unique demand from G-d because the Amalakites were a unique people. To this day, Jews have enemies from the past through to the present and then there's amalek. totally different animal. so G-d wanted Saul to 100% remove amalek from this world. And even with this explicit demand, Saul didn't do it. And he's punished for it. Loses his kingship. brooklyn, what i'm saying is that your example is an example of the opposite of what you're proposing. an example of the jews inability to kill babies. i might be missing something but it seems like the jews using non-jewish babies' blood for their matza is as credible as... the Jewish bible permits the killing of non-jewish babies. but wehatever. potato, potahto. beheaded a baby, slitting a baby's throat (but not beheading it). but, brooklyn, i do have to say, it strikes me as odd that *very recently*, hamas has performed innumerable atrocities, including murdering a baby and, to this, you say, Casualties of the truth! And then you quickly follow-up with a thousands year old text (that you're misinterpretting) to accuse the Jews of literally the same atrocity that was just done by hamas. does this not strike you as starnge?

I only know as much as you do. Sadly, we don't know (and may possibly never know) the full truth.

Re the killing of babies, you might recall that Saddam allegedly did so in incubators. The story was discredited but the myth of his doing so remained a topic of conversation for years to come. Yes we know Hamas is far from innocent. But this is equally true of Israel's government. As for that matza blood libel myth, yuck, not an issue but a stereotype that should be erased from history forever. Regarding the Bible I posted that just to prove a point that it was permitted back then. However, Koranic law is eminently clear that killing infants is strictly prohibited ("Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man."

So...obviously, "Islamic" terrorists regularly violate that particular passage in the Koran.
...As these Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists did as well...on purpose, specifically, civilians. All ages, genders, etc. Brutal murder.

Pretty sure there are strong prohibitions against murder in the Old Testament too.

While I'd agree that the Israeli government is not "innocent", I don't believe that as a policy matter the Israeli government nor Israeli citizens as a rule countenance or celebrate the intentional murder of civilians or any background.

There IS a moral difference.

IMO, that matters, though is not sufficient.

re Saddam, I'd never heard that rumor, but in our age of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies, I'm not surprised that such would circulate among some.

My wife and I bought tickets to a speaking event back in August and the event was last night. There were 3 or 4 events I was interested in and incredibly, the guy that spoke last night could not have been more timely in his discussion….. the speaker was Art Spiegelman. It was a fantastic discussion. He talked about misinformation….he talked about his book Maus being banned in a Tennessee school district….he talked about the conflict in Israel….he talked about the “othering” of people. A very provocative discussion and so timely.

Interestingly, the human tendency to "sort," i.e. observe and make distinction, is a key to our success as a species. The downside is when it is used indiscriminately and without self-reflection and correction it can result in horrific consequences.

The fruits of our greatness contain the seeds of our destruction.

Some may prefer Bad Religion. That’s fine too but generational.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygl3X5dSleU

[PizzaSnake]

1.yes And that's why I'm trying to get to the truth. If you can help me. I understand Hamas didn't cut of their heads. That's a truth casualty. But how did Hamas kill the Jewish babies? If you know...
2.I don't know if that's the best example. The Jews went to war repeatedly and they didn't murder babies, nor women and animals, which is why G-d telling Saul to do this was so unique. A unique demand from G-d because the Amalakites were a unique people. To this day, Jews have enemies from the past through to the present and then there's amalek. totally different animal. so G-d wanted Saul to 100% remove amalek from this world. And even with this explicit demand, Saul didn't do it. And he's punished for it. Loses his kingship. brooklyn, what i'm saying is that your example is an example of the opposite of what you're proposing. an example of the jews inability to kill babies. i might be missing something but it seems like the jews using non-jewish babies' blood for their matza is as credible as... the Jewish bible permits the killing of non-jewish babies. but wehatever. potato, potahto. beheaded a baby, slitting a baby's throat (but not beheading it). but, brooklyn, i do have to say, it strikes me as odd that *very recently*, hamas has performed innumerable atrocities, including murdering a baby and, to this, you say, Casualties of the truth! And then you quickly follow-up with a thousands year old text (that you're misinterpretting) to accuse the Jews of literally the same atrocity that was just done by hamas. does this not strike you as starnge?

I only know as much as you do. Sadly, we don't know (and may possibly never know) the full truth.

Re the killing of babies, you might recall that Saddam allegedly did so in incubators. The story was discredited but the myth of his doing so remained a topic of conversation for years to come. Yes we know Hamas is far from innocent. But this is equally true of Israel's government. As for that matza blood libel myth, yuck, not an issue but a stereotype that should be erased from history forever. Regarding the Bible I posted that just to prove a point that it was permitted back then. However, Koranic law is eminently clear that killing infants is strictly prohibited ("Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man."

So...obviously, "Islamic" terrorists regularly violate that particular passage in the Koran.
...As these Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists did as well...on purpose, specifically, civilians. All ages, genders, etc. Brutal murder.

Pretty sure there are strong prohibitions against murder in the Old Testament too.

While I'd agree that the Israeli government is not "innocent", I don't believe that as a policy matter the Israeli government nor Israeli citizens as a rule countenance or celebrate the intentional murder of civilians or any background.

There IS a moral difference.

IMO, that matters, though is not sufficient.

re Saddam, I'd never heard that rumor, but in our age of misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies, I'm not surprised that such would circulate among some.

My wife and I bought tickets to a speaking event back in August and the event was last night. There were 3 or 4 events I was interested in and incredibly, the guy that spoke last night could not have been more timely in his discussion….. the speaker was Art Spiegelman. It was a fantastic discussion. He talked about misinformation….he talked about his book Maus being banned in a Tennessee school district….he talked about the conflict in Israel….he talked about the “othering” of people. A very provocative discussion and so timely.

Interestingly, the human tendency to "sort," i.e. observe and make distinction, is a key to our success as a species. The downside is when it is used indiscriminately and without self-reflection and correction it can result in horrific consequences.

The fruits of our greatness contain the seeds of our destruction.

Some may prefer Bad Religion. That’s fine too but generational.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygl3X5dSleU

“No one here gets out alive.”
― Jim Morrison

[Baducchi]

Who said anything about welcoming Hamas? They have proven, shall we say, to be untrustworthy and irredeemable. No, the offer is for the Palestinian people, most specifically the children...

Not so simple. hamas and palestinians are not the same but most certainly entwined.

Who else should not be welcomed here?

of course palestinians are welcome here. just not in a wholesale way.

[Baducchi]

Don't like my plan? Then what is yours? Keep on keepin' on? I'll pass on that course of action, thank you.

for israel, there are no easy solutions. this will take time. i have thoughts and ideas but i'm not so arrogant to believe that my ideas are better than the people of israel's. they live this situation, they breath it, and they're smart. i trust the people of israel. i don't trust every individual in israel. especially the politicians. i don't trust any politicians. but i trust the people of israel and i trust the universe.