Israel and West Bank Settlements

[tech37]

But isn’t your complaint more of the sort of whiny stuff that the far right spouts about ‘canceling’ whenever they get pushback? God forbid someone speaks up and calls out unproductive behavior.

Except that, you're the whiner. Look mdlax, everyone is an adult here and in no need of your mother hen strut. You embarrass yourself.

And I'm free to do so!

Of course, I'm actually not at all embarrassed to express my views about unproductive back and forth. Ignore it if you want.

Seriously, I think most on here appreciate constructive discussion of differing views...just don't need the mud.

Controversial issues debate can include mud slinging. It's not always "constructive". Deal with it, especially when you're actually not involved. We're adults here. Nuff said.

[MDlaxfan76]

But isn’t your complaint more of the sort of whiny stuff that the far right spouts about ‘canceling’ whenever they get pushback? God forbid someone speaks up and calls out unproductive behavior.

Except that, you're the whiner. Look mdlax, everyone is an adult here and in no need of your mother hen strut. You embarrass yourself.

And I'm free to do so!

Of course, I'm actually not at all embarrassed to express my views about unproductive back and forth. Ignore it if you want.

Seriously, I think most on here appreciate constructive discussion of differing views...just don't need the mud.

Controversial issues debate can include mud slinging. It's not always "constructive". Deal with it, especially when you're actually not involved. We're adults here. Nuff said.

I had just added: "Especially in threads about war and peace, with hot war occurring, emotions pretty raw."

Mud slinging" sheds no light in such topics.

Yup, I'll "deal with it" by commenting as I see fit on lowering the temperature and tone. You can "deal with" that.

[Farfromgeneva]

Reminder: I'm not on the "right" as you're calling it, and I certainly don't adhere to strict constructionism, original intent etc, and certainly not the far right's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment (se the podcast I linked on the guns thread yesterday)..

Suggestion: Pay attention to whom you are trying to insult.

I have zero desire to enter into any debate with a rabbinical scholar. I am merely observing that the specific interpretations you have presented are tiny minority views in the history of rabbinical midrash and current teaching as well. That's enough for me to dismiss your pronouncements of a singular interpretation as "truth" with "ya und ?" as my Swiss friend would say.

On the Constitutional argument, I hear the argument, but I will again maintain that SCOTUS has never expanded such concerns to our foreign aid support or treaty alliances with other nations. Quite the contrary, those decisions are powers understood to be held by the Legislative and Executive.

And I will again maintain that your desire to expand such as never found any serious foothold in Constitutional jurisprudence and scholarship...makes for good TP, that's all.

Ok, if you fall back position is that there are some small percentage of Jews who are actually anti-zionist and some are not Orthodox, fine by me. Communism, marxism, also have their adherents among a small percentage...indeed, considerable overlap, but we're still talking small.

Finally, I'll cast no broad aspersions on CCNY and its graduates.

What the heck is "insulting" you? Like "rock throwing" that is uncalled for.

Again, not a tiny amount of people but a significant amount. We will never have the actual numbers but large Orthodox anti Israel rallies have appeared in NY and I gave you an organization whose membership is well over 400,000. Kindly stop repeating yourself.

As for jurisprudence, yeah that's too bad that it has not been tested in the courts. But you know how the SC is ~ just another political institution in itself.

CCNY = # 1. No school has ever championed the cause of the poor and under privileged more than it has. Back in the day in New York some folks use to say that there is New York University and Jew York University meaning CCNY because of all the liberal Jews it had so many of whom fought for those in need.

Again, far be it from me to cast any aspersions at CCNY or its grads, indeed I wouldn't at anyone's favorite school. I just wanted to know what you meant; I'm sure there are many CCNY alums who feel similarly, albeit not all who 'judge' such would agree. I put very little stock in the accuracy of Us News, for instance, but they rank CCNY just outside the top 100 national universities, #51 in public universities...and that's a rise in the rankings.

But hey, I love my small college too...

As to insulting, look at what I objected to...I consider it insulting to be lumped with people with whom I disagree rather vehemently.

I think you exaggerate the degree of actual anti-zionism in the overall Jewish community, perhaps conflating those who have empathy for the innocent Palestinians and concern about the policies of right wing Israeli politics. I'm not Jewish, but you can put me in a similar camp among Christians.

I'm quite concerned with the after shocks of the current response, as well as see considerable fault with prior policies that have exacerbated the plight of Palestinians...on the other hand I hold Hamas fully responsible for the atrocities they have committed and the response they have incited. and I hold considerable responsibility as well, not just with Israel, but also the neighboring states who have failed to sufficiently assist the innocents among the Palestinians achieve a measure of prosperity and self-determination through peaceful means.

As a fierce rival of a few schools for football in my day I will cast some aspersions.

1. Ithaca College BLOWS

2. RPI eats satans a** after a Chinese buffet in central Jersey.

3. Union can like my PROBISCUS!

*Probably should’ve left the ranking part unsaid. Feels like a heuristic bait laid for you…

[Farfromgeneva]

No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.

Oh, I read them. What happened 60 years ago-----your words, not mine? 'member the war?

Or more to the point: how many jewish people live in your "0ne State Solutions" in neighboring Egypt or Syria?

Can't answer for either one. Do they claim to be democratic or are they self proclaimed Islamic states?

Next to zero for both.

As for claims of "Democracy.....etc." Irrelevant. The point is, the Jewish people are not welcome in those countries. You are pretending like the Muslims would play nicey-nice if the were allowed power in Israel.

I'm not any happier about this mess than you are. But if the Jewish people in the region laid down their arms? You are hopefully not so far gone to understand that it would take maybe a week or two before they'd be wiped out.

The Iranians, Syrians, and Egyptians have no such worries.

Your "one State solution" would wipe out the last remaining Jewish people in the region, Brooks. You're not being realistic, and you know it.

Israel has always wanted a one state solution. In the last decade or so they have been trying normalizing w several middle eastern states. That is one reason for the attack. They were alerted by Egypt. If they believe it can be done as it appears it can w Egypt and Jordan and developing w the Saudis then i think we can.

Israel has been a nuclear power since at least the 50. Militarily it is difficult to see how they could lose. Asymetric warfare produces strange outputs sometimes. Vietnam comes to mind. We lost

Apartheid produces civilian unrest. So does great disparities in wealth. Both are present there.

Israel broke the truce shortly after state hood as has been breaking it ever since. They began pushing Palestinians off their land ever before statehood. It is long past time to cha ge the trajectory

So that justifies Hamas murdering children and babies?? Why didn't Hamas bring this fight to the Israeli military?? Maybe if you pour enough maple syrup on the problem it will be sweet enough for you. The creep from the creeps is moving even faster than I anticipated.

... for all you tough guys who think .... actually who don't think period.

Conversely…

https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stan ... 1850922505

[Farfromgeneva]

But isn’t your complaint more of the sort of whiny stuff that the far right spouts about ‘canceling’ whenever they get pushback? God forbid someone speaks up and calls out unproductive behavior.

Except that, you're the whiner. Look mdlax, everyone is an adult here and in no need of your mother hen strut. You embarrass yourself.

And I'm free to do so!

Of course, I'm actually not at all embarrassed to express my views about unproductive back and forth. Ignore it if you want.

Seriously, I think most on here appreciate constructive discussion of differing views...just don't need the mud.

Controversial issues debate can include mud slinging. It's not always "constructive". Deal with it, especially when you're actually not involved. We're adults here. Nuff said.

I had just added: "Especially in threads about war and peace, with hot war occurring, emotions pretty raw."

Mud slinging" sheds no light in such topics.

Yup, I'll "deal with it" by commenting as I see fit on lowering the temperature and tone. You can "deal with" that.

“Deal with it” just represents his stupid hypocrisy given where he started with you….

[Brooklyn]

... for all you tough guys who think .... actually who don't think period.


Conversely…

https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stan ... 1850922505

‘The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That



That's what's called being called politically correct.

[Farfromgeneva]

Lobbing this one into the mix.

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/15/china-israel-hamas-war

In claiming neutrality, China picks a side in Israel-Hamas war

Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian
Beijing is trying to use the outbreak of violence between Israel and Hamas to curry favor among Arab states and gain their support for China's global agenda.

Why it matters: The Chinese government is seeking to legitimize authoritarian practices and erode human rights protections on the international stage.

"China is trying to promote alternative norms in global politics, and China sees Arab states as a natural constituency for China to try to attract," said Jonathan Fulton, a senior non-resident fellow at the Atlantic Council.
"By appealing to Arab countries, they'll get more support for the reforms they want to push through in the international system," Fulton said.
What's happening: China's foreign ministry condemned the violence against civilians in the Israel-Hamas war but did not denounce Hamas by name. China's immediate statements after the attack, which included calling for an independent state of Palestine, disappointed Israeli officials.

"When people are being murdered, slaughtered in the streets, this is not the time to call for a two-state solution," said Yuval Waks, an Israeli official in Beijing, adding that Israel expected China to offer "stronger condemnation" of the attacks.
By not condemning Hamas, "China is looking to score points with the Arab countries," Mor Sobol, an assistant professor at Tamkang University in Taiwan who focuses on China-Israel relations, told Axios.
Meanwhile, commentary in Chinese state media and heavily censored social media platforms has blamed U.S. involvement in the Middle East as the underlying cause of the violence gripping Israel and Gaza after Hamas' deadly attack over the weekend.

Chinese critics identified U.S.-brokered normalization of relations between Israel and several Arab nations, and ongoing U.S. support for the Israeli government, as the source of unbearable pressure for Palestinians.
"It's a very cost-effective strategy in the Middle East. They are calling the U.S. a biased actor, they are trying to decrease American influence in the region. They are playing the long game," Sobol said.
What they're saying: "They are trying to portray themselves as neutral but it's very clear which side they support," Fulton said.

"Beijing looks at the Israel-Palestine conflict and realizes that Israel is never going to be swayed from the U.S. camp."
Driving the news: China's special envoy for Middle East affairs Zhai Jun said this week that China wants to coordinate with Egypt to broker a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.

The Chinese government is presenting itself as a better peacemaker than the U.S. on the heels of its successful role in brokering a deal between Saudi Arabia and Iran earlier this year.
State media described Beijing's recent role in brokering the normalization of diplomatic relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran as an "exemplary role in solving Palestine-Israel conflicts."
Flashback: Chinese President Xi Jinping welcomed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to Beijing for a state visit in June and offered to mediate between Israel and Palestine, saying that he supports "the just cause of the Palestinian people to restore their legitimate national rights."

The two leaders also said they had agreed to a strategic partnership, and Abbas signed on to China's Belt and Road Initiative.
The same month, Xi also invited Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to Beijing.
In the 1960s and '70s, the Chinese government openly supported the Palestinian cause as a fellow liberation movement and did not have diplomatic relations with Israel. In later decades, it changed that stance and now maintains warm ties with both Israel and Palestine.

[old salt]

Putting aside OS's compulsive need to set aside judgment only when the exercise of judgment doesn't involve US Democrats, there is little doubt among the punditocracy and even among scholars focused on Israel that this was a colossal intelligence failure, and an astounding "success" by Hamas. The analysis in the aftermath will decide whether this was a failure of collection, or analysis of what was collected, or both.

Nice strawman. I never said or implied that this was anything other than a massive intel failure.
I pushed back on the unfounded assertion that it was because the Israeli military & intel services were distracted by internal politics.
They are more patriotic & professional than that, as will be demonstrated again as they follow & support their unity govt.

[old salt]

As for me? The only thing I can come up with is to funnel billions into Gaza, and make it a regional employment center. That's it. That's all I've got: make Gaza a nice place to live, bringing much (but not all) of the tension to a halt.

Yep ! The optimum outcome would be for the Saudis to lead the rest of the moderate Arab &/or Muslim nations into the Abraham Accords & form a multinational organization to first occupy, then develop, Gaza & the West Bank into prosperous autonomous entities.

[jhu72]

America's Best

[Brooklyn]

Anybody here ready to lace up the combat boots, march off to yet another war, and finance all the war profiteering that's going to take place soon?

[Typical Lax Dad]

America's Best

He just loves his country…..this isn’t a hate crime.

[Seacoaster(1)]

As for me? The only thing I can come up with is to funnel billions into Gaza, and make it a regional employment center. That's it. That's all I've got: make Gaza a nice place to live, bringing much (but not all) of the tension to a halt.

Yep ! The optimum outcome would be for the Saudis to lead the rest of the moderate Arab &/or Muslim nations into the Abraham Accords & form a multinational organization to first occupy, then develop, Gaza & the West Bank into prosperous autonomous entities.

Looks like Blinken is doing more to encourage security and aid to Palestinians than Hamas leadership. Arab states likely won’t buy in. Palestinians just pawns in their games. It’s just unbearably sad.

[Farfromgeneva]

America's Best

So I have to ask, bc it’s me.

Is that herpes?

[MDlaxfan76]

I don't think elements of Bibi's current coalition want peace. I suspect if they had their way they' favor escalation...

I don't think you're wrong. But they want escalation so that... They can have peace. They want to make bold, violent moves to end this thing once and for all so that they can have peace. And, I guess, you can say the same for Hamas, Hitler, and many others. They want to wipe the Jews off the map so that... They can have peace. In theory, everybody wants peace. Everyone wants to resolve their internal issue. The challenge seems to be finding peace whilst trying to have a low impact on the world and the people around you. Using that criteria, I agree. Elements of Bibi's current coalition, including Bibi, are not concerned about being low impact.

security...not actual peace.

Peace means both sides have an interest in each other's happiness and prosperity and will not threaten such for either.

Bibi & Israel's other leaders wanted peace so badly, they were tricked into thinking they could trust Hamas.
They were fooled by a very sophisticated disinfo op (see the NYT analyis posted earlier).

Pretty stupid 'take' if you ask me...

Nobody wanting peace was green lighting settlements in the West Bank by Orthodox Jews...

Read the NYT analysis posted earlier on how & why Israel was surprised. It won't seem so stupid.

I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

But no, Netanyahu has never been seeking peace; he's promised Israelis a false sense of security through subjugation of Palestinians in ghettos and technology defenses, but that's a far, far cry from 'peace'.

As to how and why Israel was surprised, I've read a lot of conflicting 'takes' ranging all the way to Netanyahu and the hardliners wanted this set of atrocities to occur, knew it was coming, etc, etc...that seems far fetched to me...but so does the notion that they so badly wanted peace they were bamboozled into thinking Hamas wanted peace too.

Now, if the article is saying they were lulled into a false sense of security because Hamas was careful to keep their cards close to their vests, indeed pretended to have far less capacity than coordination that they actually had, that's certainly plausible.

and it's pretty clear that the priorities for this government has been on the violence occurring in areas with Orthodox settlements displacing Palestinians...big shift in personnel. that's been where the hot violence has been occurring, instigated by these settlers and the predictable reaction to displacement.

and, of course, there's the immense disaffection in both defense and intelligence security forces with regard to this government and it extrajudicial 'coup' efforts.

This was one of the earliest exchanges, Salty.
I've bolded in red what your explanation was for the intel failure...Netanyahu wanted peace so badly that he trusted Hamas...

[MDlaxfan76]

I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

And then this

[MDlaxfan76]

And then this:

Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Perhaps. I'm sure you read it but here's Friedman's take again:

"I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball."

That's a reasonable supposition, as is the supposition that what resources and attention they did have were focused on West Bank violence with the settlements.

Egypt may well have human sources closer to Hamas than Israel's and the US' largely technology based monitoring. It is a little "mind boggling" that the listing apparatus didn't pick up chatter...or was it there and they were just understaffed, no one taking sufficiently seriously, "eye off the ball"? Or was Hamas just really smart in how they communicated the plans, trained, etc such that the technical listening wouldn't pick anything up? Were they sophisticated in a disinformation campaign to suggest a false calm? Or a combination?

But Egypt would have been focused on Gaza.

Doesn't mean they were complicit, but then again Egypt is run by a terrible, corrupt regime and there are factions within it who see profit in Hamas...so, can't simply rule it out that they were 'consulted'...

That is not a reasonable supposition by Friedman. It is pure biased conjecture. He's purporting to speak for Israel's officer corps.
...& you're not qualified to disparage Israel's intel services.

And YOU are definitely not qualified to disparage the US FBI, Salty. Nor the US IC.

Nope, I have opinions which I'm sure will evolve as we learn more over time. I merely said that Friedman's "supposition" is "reasonable...IMO, based on the little we know so far, all of which is subject to ongoing review. Note that I added other possible explanations which I think are plausible as well...but also note I didn't suggest a nefarious, purposeful avoidance of preparing to swiftly respond to such an event. That's something some critics think actually plausible, but I think that's pretty far-fetched and I'm not big on such conspiracies. I could be wrong...

I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense. We simply don't know how the intel services didn't see this coming, why with all the effort they undoubtedly put into surveillance (or we've been told they put into it) they could have missed it...but, hey, maybe Hamas did a superior job of evading detection. Or the intel services were preoccupied and did 'take their eye off the ball'...but I think it's incredibly implausible that they (and "Bibi") were so overwhelmed by their desire for peace that they thought that was Hamas' objective as well...these are not stupid, naive people the way you seem to want to suggest.

[MDlaxfan76]

As for me? The only thing I can come up with is to funnel billions into Gaza, and make it a regional employment center. That's it. That's all I've got: make Gaza a nice place to live, bringing much (but not all) of the tension to a halt.

Yep ! The optimum outcome would be for the Saudis to lead the rest of the moderate Arab &/or Muslim nations into the Abraham Accords & form a multinational organization to first occupy, then develop, Gaza & the West Bank into prosperous autonomous entities.

Agreed. Destroy terror networks, but provide a real opportunity for Palestinians to enjoy prosperity and dignity...peacefully.

Unfortunately, that's not very likely if past is prologue, but that does appear to be what Biden was alluding to last night on 60 Minutes as well.

Certainly worth going for.

[MDlaxfan76]

Putting aside OS's compulsive need to set aside judgment only when the exercise of judgment doesn't involve US Democrats, there is little doubt among the punditocracy and even among scholars focused on Israel that this was a colossal intelligence failure, and an astounding "success" by Hamas. The analysis in the aftermath will decide whether this was a failure of collection, or analysis of what was collected, or both.

Nice strawman. I never said or implied that this was anything other than a massive intel failure.
I pushed back on the unfounded assertion that it was because the Israeli military & intel services were distracted by internal politics.
They are more patriotic & professional than that, as will be demonstrated again as they follow & support their unity govt.

Your logic has some potential holes, seems to me.

You now seem to agree there was a "massive intel failure".

I agree as to professionalism and patriotism of Israel's defense and security forces. Top of the line. Just as I would describe the US services.

Not without flaws and mistakes and human error, but highly professional and patriotic.

But "distracted by internal politics" is pretty irrefutable...whether that's the best, much less total, explanation for the intelligence and operational failures is another matter.

Reportedly the forces have been focused on West Bank violence in the settlements. Both personnel and attention. How much did that shift attention away from Gaza? did it reduce personnel, time and focus? West Bank violence has very much been an Israeli internal politics issue, with the current government green lighting primarily Orthodox settlements physically displacing Palestinians, with the inevitable blowback.

Were the operational failures due to understaffing? Was there far less military resources allocated to the region because they were shifted to the West Bank?

Did the massive protests, including many in the military and reserves, distract? How much?

What I find highly unlikely is that policy makers purposely took attention away from Hamas in order to entice such strikes...nah, that's super remote, conspiracy nonsense.

I also don't think Netanyahu wanted peace...security and quiet, sure, but the government's policies have been subjugation and ghettoization, suppression and, in the West Bank, displacement...none of that could be considered wanting "peace".

But were they lulled to sleep because of excellent disinformation tactics by Hamas? Certainly there seems to be at least some element there. But these are highly professional and patriotic intelligence personnel, with extremely sophisticated monitoring capabilities and best in the world HumInt as well. Not easily "fooled". And we now read that there were warning signs that Israel knew. And yet still lulled...if not "distracted" then what?

To me, these are at least "reasonable" questions.

[Farfromgeneva]

Putting aside OS's compulsive need to set aside judgment only when the exercise of judgment doesn't involve US Democrats, there is little doubt among the punditocracy and even among scholars focused on Israel that this was a colossal intelligence failure, and an astounding "success" by Hamas. The analysis in the aftermath will decide whether this was a failure of collection, or analysis of what was collected, or both.

Nice strawman. I never said or implied that this was anything other than a massive intel failure.
I pushed back on the unfounded assertion that it was because the Israeli military & intel services were distracted by internal politics.
They are more patriotic & professional than that, as will be demonstrated again as they follow & support their unity govt.

Your logic has some potential holes, seems to me.

You now seem to agree there was a "massive intel failure".

I agree as to professionalism and patriotism of Israel's defense and security forces. Top of the line. Just as I would describe the US services.

Not without flaws and mistakes and human error, but highly professional and patriotic.

But "distracted by internal politics" is pretty irrefutable...whether that's the best, much less total, explanation for the intelligence and operational failures is another matter.

Reportedly the forces have been focused on West Bank violence in the settlements. Both personnel and attention. How much did that shift attention away from Gaza? did it reduce personnel, time and focus? West Bank violence has very much been an Israeli internal politics issue, with the current government green lighting primarily Orthodox settlements physically displacing Palestinians, with the inevitable blowback.

Were the operational failures due to understaffing? Was there far less military resources allocated to the region because they were shifted to the West Bank?

Did the massive protests, including many in the military and reserves, distract? How much?

What I find highly unlikely is that policy makers purposely took attention away from Hamas in order to entice such strikes...nah, that's super remote, conspiracy nonsense.

I also don't think Netanyahu wanted peace...security and quiet, sure, but the government's policies have been subjugation and ghettoization, suppression and, in the West Bank, displacement...none of that could be considered wanting "peace".

But were they lulled to sleep because of excellent disinformation tactics by Hamas? Certainly there seems to be at least some element there. But these are highly professional and patriotic intelligence personnel, with extremely sophisticated monitoring capabilities and best in the world HumInt as well. Not easily "fooled". And we now read that there were warning signs that Israel knew. And yet still lulled...if not "distracted" then what?

To me, these are at least "reasonable" questions.

Wait until the faux intellectuals and wanna bes at the modern version of the National review (who couldn’t hold the jockstraps of the older ones) write a piece about how it’s plausible Israel allowed this to happen at behest of US Jews to demonstrate the risk of electing Trump again as a conspiracy. Thrown out with the strained veneer of agnostic intellectualism wrapped around filth.