Israel and West Bank Settlements

[a fan]

Israel attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.

Yes, yes. "Neutrals" are famous for... checks notes... launching rockets and mortars at their neighbors, and funneling munitions from Iran to Hezbollah.

Very neutral behavior, shame on Israel.

Syria has had its own civil war since time immemorial. History shows that it is most unwise to have two different battlefronts.

You want to replace Israel with a "different imperialism" fueled by hate. That's your idea of "fixing the problem".

Gee, Brooks, how come your idea isn't being accepted?

[a fan]

.......I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place.

Yes. And Brooks is admirably consistent with these views on American intervention. Tip of the hat, there.

[Brooklyn]

Should be self explanatory. Just allow citizenship and equal rights to all people within its borders. Had this happened as was proposed 60 years ago, by now Muslims would have been the majority and the country would have been at peace just as in the days of the Spanish Arabic dynasties.

You want no Israel.

You always have to ask this question of the far left pro-Palestinian crowd. You want the Jewish population wiped out from the region, Brookie.

Gee, why are the Israeli's fighting, Brook? Please, by all means, act like they're insane for not wanting to be wiped out.

No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.

[a fan]

Should be self explanatory. Just allow citizenship and equal rights to all people within its borders. Had this happened as was proposed 60 years ago, by now Muslims would have been the majority and the country would have been at peace just as in the days of the Spanish Arabic dynasties.

You want no Israel.

You always have to ask this question of the far left pro-Palestinian crowd. You want the Jewish population wiped out from the region, Brookie.

Gee, why are the Israeli's fighting, Brook? Please, by all means, act like they're insane for not wanting to be wiped out.

No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.

Oh, I read them. What happened 60 years ago-----your words, not mine? 'member the war?

Or more to the point: how many jewish people live in your "0ne State Solutions" in neighboring Egypt or Syria?

[Brooklyn]

.......I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place.

Yes. And Brooks is admirably consistent with these views on American intervention. Tip of the hat, there.

✔

[Brooklyn]

No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.

Oh, I read them. What happened 60 years ago-----your words, not mine? 'member the war?

Or more to the point: how many jewish people live in your "0ne State Solutions" in neighboring Egypt or Syria?

Can't answer for either one. Do they claim to be democratic or are they self proclaimed Islamic states?

[a fan]

No Israel? I have REPEATEDLY stated that I want a one state solution.

Please read my posts again.

Oh, I read them. What happened 60 years ago-----your words, not mine? 'member the war?

Or more to the point: how many jewish people live in your "0ne State Solutions" in neighboring Egypt or Syria?

Can't answer for either one. Do they claim to be democratic or are they self proclaimed Islamic states?

Next to zero for both.

As for claims of "Democracy.....etc." Irrelevant. The point is, the Jewish people are not welcome in those countries. You are pretending like the Muslims would play nicey-nice if the were allowed power in Israel.

I'm not any happier about this mess than you are. But if the Jewish people in the region laid down their arms? You are hopefully not so far gone to understand that it would take maybe a week or two before they'd be wiped out.

The Iranians, Syrians, and Egyptians have no such worries.

Your "one State solution" would wipe out the last remaining Jewish people in the region, Brooks. You're not being realistic, and you know it.

[Brooklyn]

As for claims of "Democracy.....etc." Irrelevant. The point is, the Jewish people are not welcome in those countries. You are pretending like the Muslims would play nicey-nice if the were allowed power in Israel.

I'm not any happier about this mess than you are. But if the Jewish people in the region laid down their arms? You are hopefully not so far gone to understand that it would take maybe a week or two before they'd be wiped out.

The Iranians, Syrians, and Egyptians have no such worries.

Your "one State solution" would wipe out the last remaining Jewish people in the region, Brooks. You're not being realistic, and you know it.

People of Gaza have a right to self defense. Forum right wingers who are so quick to applaud 2d Amendment rights should readily agree.

One state solution is the democratic ideal. Right wingers applauded invading Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq to promote it so why not do the same in this instance?

Just like you said: I am consistent in my ideas. Everyone else should be the same way.

[a fan]

People of Gaza have a right to self defense.

Sure. But that's not all a small, but important, percentage want....they want to wipe out the Jewish population. So.....how do you propose they are prevented from doing that?

One state solution is the democratic ideal.

Democracy in the Western sense won't work there, Brooks.

Again: how many Jewish people live in Egypt? What does that tell you?

What you are suggesting won't work. Full stop.

I'd love if was that simple, Brooks. Sadly, it ain't.

[youthathletics]

Wonder if South Park's prediction comes true:

https://www.tiktok.com/@cal6853/video/7 ... _6R5KrCjJs

[MDlaxfan76]

Quick question: are you Satmar or other Orthodox sect?
More importantly, what makes you an expert in sacred texts much less on God's will?

Or asked a little gentler, what makes you more knowledgeable than the millions of Jews who disagree with you and these interpretations?

No, you've not remotely come close to "proving" anything at all except your own ideological zealotry. But we already knew that, didn't we?

Can you provide a citation on the "hundreds of thousands" of "Jewish progressives". etc? Is being "openly sympathetic to Palestinians and other victimized groups" make one anti-zionist??? Does that mean I'm anti-zionist because I'm openly sympathetic to the plight of innocent Palestinian civilians? Which I am.

I don't think so.

I was wondering about the views of Jews regarding Israel, how they breakdown, knowing darn well this is not a monolithic group. Couldn't find much about these Jewish progressives" who are anti-zionist...but views do indeed vary as to degree of support, sense of connection, etc.

Here's some PEW research on the question: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... on-israel/

Everything else I found also made pretty darn clear that the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist are almost all Orthodox, mostly just the two groups we've discussed representing less than 6% of all Orthodox...themselves a minority of Jews.

But hey, surely there are some other Jews who are anti-zionist as well...gotta be a couple here and there...

On your other arguments, they're interesting, though I disagree with your absolutist statements about what the Constitution allows or doesn't allow...clearly a whole heck of a lot of Constitutional scholars and SCOTUS Justices don't agree with you, but that's ok, you have a pattern of declaring absolute certainty of your views being superior to those of most anyone who is actually more expert than you. Par for the course.

I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place.

"experts on Jewish texts"

Never said I was. But they claim to be and openly discuss their views all over the Internet. Don't argue with me, argue with them if you're so smart.

Don't do Torah. Never have.


"hundreds of thousands" of Jewish progressives

over 400K + members ~ never has been a secret, pal. That doesn't even include the readers of its articles such as myself > so much more than the "couple here and there". And there are plenty more groups like it. If you want to know who they are you need to do your homework. example:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-tear-in ... massacres/



As for disestablishment, the Constitution is perfectly clear. Many others who are far more intelligent than I have come to the same conclusion over the years:

https://www.amazon.com/SURPRISE-Millita ... B01MQVR7XI


I have not read this book so I cannot say for certain whether it can be understood by laymen. But give it a look so that you can learn the truth.



"I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place."


That, at least, is well stated.

Glad you appreciate the last...

ok, so you find compelling the arguments from people who have a tiny minority view of how to read the exact same text. And yet, you're not an expert yourself, not a scholar...so, what makes it so compelling, that it seems to support your own ideology?

It's interesting that you use the same logic about the Constitutionality of support for Israel, a terribly small minority of people would find that interesting (well, some people find the Protocols of Zion "interesting, so who knows...), let's just say that the vast majority of Constitutional scholars and SCOTUS Justices over the decades have not agreed with that tiny minority view among actual scholars...

Pretty obviously you find the same aspects compelling...they support your own predilections and ideology.

But hey, 400k of Jews are among the Jewish progressives you say are anti-zionist...what's that 2.5% of Jews? Seriously?

Big difference between having empathy for the plight of Palestinians and being anti-zionist or do you equate those things? That would be a much bigger percentage, indeed my hunch would be that a majority of Jewish people have such empathy and concern...not all, but most.

[Brooklyn]

People of Gaza have a right to self defense.

Sure. But that's not all a small, but important, percentage want....they want to wipe out the Jewish population. So.....how do you propose they are prevented from doing that?

One state solution is the democratic ideal.

Democracy in the Western sense won't work there, Brooks.

Again: how many Jewish people live in Egypt? What does that tell you?

What you are suggesting won't work. Full stop.

I'd love if was that simple, Brooks. Sadly, it ain't.

~ wipe out ~

Certain Israelis want no less for Arabs:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/1 ... ian-pogrom



~ Egypt ~

Irrelevant


~ won't work ~

Hasn't been tried.

So far, everything else has been tried and failed.

[Brooklyn]

That, at least, is well stated.
*****

Glad you appreciate the last...

ok, so you find compelling the arguments from people who have a tiny minority view of how to read the exact same text. And yet, you're not an expert yourself, not a scholar...so, what makes it so compelling, that it seems to support your own ideology?

It's interesting that you use the same logic about the Constitutionality of support for Israel, a terribly small minority of people would find that interesting (well, some people find the Protocols of Zion "interesting, so who knows...), let's just say that the vast majority of Constitutional scholars and SCOTUS Justices over the decades have not agreed with that tiny minority view among actual scholars...

Pretty obviously you find the same aspects compelling...they support your own predilections and ideology.

But hey, 400k of Jews are among the Jewish progressives you say are anti-zionist...what's that 2.5% of Jews? Seriously?

Big difference between having empathy for the plight of Palestinians and being anti-zionist or do you equate those things? That would be a much bigger percentage, indeed my hunch would be that a majority of Jewish people have such empathy and concern...not all, but most.

~ not an expert ~

But as a literary scholar (BA with honors from the greatest college in the USA), I am able to read and to discern what I'm reading. As to the actual merits of Hebrew translations and the analyses given by those scholars, I'll allow experts to debate them at greater length.

As for constitutional considerations, I only have a doctorate in the field which makes me qualified to call myself "expert" on law and their interpretation/application.

400+K subscribers? Good number. But, of course, only a small amount of that group's supporters. There are millions more.

[old salt]

I certainly don't think YOU are qualified to defend or critique Israel's intel services in any absolute certainty sense.

I'm doing neither. Can you say the same ?

Sheesh, everything I said had caveats and "I don't know" and "supposition" and "IMO"...saying something is reasonable, but that there are other reasonable explanations as well, and still others I find less plausible is a darn far cry for absolutism.

Contrast that with your total, absolute dismissal of Friedman's "supposition" and then attack on me personally for even saying it was "reasonable", and telling me I have no right to consider Israel's obvious intelligence miss and operational problems explainable the way these articles have suggested...man, what arrogance.

Let me ask you straight, is there any possibility that Friedman's assessment has merit?

And how the F would you know otherwise?

Friedman is doing what he usually does. He has friends in Israel who he agrees with, then he parrots their political bias.
Friedman offered no caveats. He was even more unhinged on MSNBC. He's too politically biased to offer objective analysis.

man, what hypocrisy from someone who posts all sorts of claptrap from supposed experts and commentators whose biases ooze out of every paragraph...

I'm fine with taking Friedman with a grain of salt. He has a perspective that IMO is worthy of consideration, not blind acceptance or adherence. I called the bit someone posted a "reasonable" take, but that there are other "reasonable" explanations for the intelligence and operational failure...and some that I think are less reasonable but not impossible.

I asked a straight pair of questions above. I don't think you answered them.

Too soon for Friedman to make that assessment without the evidence to back it up.
How does he know if/how much Israeli military officers & intel officials were distracted by Israeli domestic politics.
That's an insult to their professionalism.
Friedman, Anne Appelbaum, the Morninbg Joe crowd & you all started harping on this with no basis other than your own political agenda.
Wait for the investigation to account for what happened & why. This is not the time for that divisive, partisan nonsense.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Israel attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.

Yes, yes. "Neutrals" are famous for... checks notes... launching rockets and mortars at their neighbors, and funneling munitions from Iran to Hezbollah.

Very neutral behavior, shame on Israel.

Syria has had its own civil war since time immemorial. History shows that it is most unwise to have two different battlefronts.

And? Syria is fractured, and Syria defense forces or Iranian / Iranian backed militias have been firing rockets and mortars into Israel from Syria for years. And Syria has been letting or helping Iran funnel weapons to Hezbollah through Syria. There was a plane likely full of weapons flying into Syria at the time of the attacks that turned back around to Tehran.

This ain't some "neutral" country my man. It's obviously complicated, but your holier than thou act here doesn't hold water.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Wait for the investigation to account for what happened & why. This is not the time for that divisive, partisan nonsense.

It would help your cause if you took this stance consistently instead of only when it fits your agenda.

[Brooklyn]

And? Syria is fractured, and Syria defense forces or Iranian / Iranian backed militias have been firing rockets and mortars into Israel from Syria for years. And Syria has been letting or helping Iran funnel weapons to Hezbollah through Syria. There was a plane likely full of weapons flying into Syria at the time of the attacks that turned back around to Tehran.

This ain't some "neutral" country my man. It's obviously complicated, but your holier than thou act here doesn't hold water.

Israel sent drones to attack Iran and have yet to prove that Tehran had any actual role in attacking Israel.

All this talk that Iran is out to conquer the world is total bullschitt created by drugged up war profit seeking delusionals and their supporters. Syria is Sunni which means it, too, is at war with Iran. We've had several threads on this forum (and LP) in which you delusionals continue to insist upon launching a war on Iran. To this day you have yet to present so much as a shred of evidence to support or to justify your pro war claims.

[Farfromgeneva]

yup, a very small percentage of Jews, even smaller the group you describe, holding quite fundamentalist, exclusive views of these texts. Many millions of Jews disagree about the reading of the text. I guess they're all wrong according to you? That's a heck of a lot of generations of rabbis and scholars...and you're right, they're wrong?

I'm not Jewish, but that's in my Bible as well and I don't remotely come to that conclusion any more than I come to the conclusion that you must be a Christian to get to heaven based on Jesus' teachings according to certain later writers...doesn't stop some of my brethren quoting scripture as if "proof" of their claims...

BTW, can you prove that that reading is the "only way" to properly understand it?...have you literally spoken to God, because otherwise, I'm pretty sure there is no absolute proof of any interpretation.

If you're so smart why don't you go ahead and have a debate with those rabbis? Show them how "smart" you are. I'll be very interested to see how great your knowledge of Hebrew is compared to them.

Did I claim to be "smart", much less "so smart"?

Heck, did I claim to be a scholar of sacred texts?

Did I claim to be personally equipped to engage in scholarly rabbinic midrash?

Did I even claim to claim to read Hebrew???

No, I did not. Dumb challenge.

My point, stated again, is simply that the vast majority of other Jewish scholars strongly disagree with the views you state. They're neither stupid nor ignorant of these sacred texts and their history of interpretation.

Again, can YOU "prove" you're right and these many millions of Jews and rabbis over the millennia are wrong in their interpretation of these sacred texts and passages? Maybe God speaks to you so clearly...I dunno... but that's the only way I know of to "prove" such a claim.

Look, you're free to hold what ever beliefs you may have, and to state them clearly if you wish, but most of us are here to have reasonable discussions based in some semblance of logic and facts, not simply articles of faith.

IMO you have all sorts of reasonable (IMO) arguments to make supporting your views about international affairs and the proper role for the US, but trying to tell us that the views of a very small minority of Jews are superior to and should supercede the views of the vast majority of Jews is very poor logic and, again IMO, NOT reasonable or helpful to your other arguments. It only diminishes them to bolster the impression that you are a rabid ideologue incapable of reasonable logic. That's too bad as some of your other arguments IMO are worth consideration.

His is the first time you’ve considered that?

My mistake long ago was indexing Dis and Brooklyn and similar (long ago, that’s migrated now).

Hey, I’m an ideologue too, for hot and open societies, clothing optional!

[Farfromgeneva]

Israel attacking neutrals in their continued campaign of aggression, imperialism, and hate. As always, such evils are met with silence from the international community.

Yes, yes. "Neutrals" are famous for... checks notes... launching rockets and mortars at their neighbors, and funneling munitions from Iran to Hezbollah.

Very neutral behavior, shame on Israel.

Can one be neutral and also a habitual line stepper?

Asking for a friend, or something…

[Farfromgeneva]

Did I claim to be "smart", much less "so smart"?
Heck, did I claim to be a scholar of sacred texts?
Did I claim to be personally equipped to engage in scholarly rabbinic midrash?
Did I even claim to claim to read Hebrew???
No, I did not. Dumb challenge.
My point, stated again, is simply that the vast majority of other Jewish scholars strongly disagree with the views you state. They're neither stupid nor ignorant of these sacred texts and their history of interpretation.
Again, can YOU "prove" you're right and these many millions of Jews and rabbis over the millennia are wrong in their interpretation of these sacred texts and passages? Maybe God speaks to you so clearly...I dunno... but that's the only way I know of to "prove" such a claim.
Look, you're free to hold what ever beliefs you may have, and to state them clearly if you wish, but most of us are here to have reasonable discussions based in some semblance of logic and facts, not simply articles of faith.
IMO you have all sorts of reasonable (IMO) arguments to make supporting your views about international affairs and the proper role for the US, but trying to tell us that the views of a very small minority of Jews are superior to and should supercede the views of the vast majority of Jews is very poor logic and, again IMO, NOT reasonable or helpful to your other arguments. It only diminishes them to bolster the impression that you are a rabid ideologue incapable of reasonable logic. That's too bad as some of your other arguments IMO are worth consideration.

'' not reasonable ... ideologue "

But you sure spend a lot of time reading my posts. As for "proving" anything, I have already provided links which conclusively prove the positions taken by anti zionist Jews. Over the years I have seen Orthodox scholars challenge other Jewish scholars on the merits of zionist ideology and how it conflicts with biblical teaching but the latter have been hesitant to accept such challenges. Too bad. It would be quite a treat to see zionists get verbally whipped in public. It would equally pleasing to see American zionist apologists like yourself embarrassed by those truths.

To suggest that anti zionist Jews are a small minority is absurd in view of the many hundreds of thousands of Jewish progressives who are openly sympathetic to Palestinians and other victimized groups. This is a point discussed before so that it need not be repeated.

Furthermore, if you can set aside your snobbery, let's bear in mind that none of that schitt that does on overseas is any of our godd@mn business. There simply is no excuse or justification for using our tax dollars to kill or to repress innocents abroad when we have so many problems going on at home. We continue to finance Israel's health care while denying it to the poor at home. To me, that's a political crime. The Constitution calls for disestablishment or what is commonly called separation of church and state. Israel is a self acknowledged religious state. As such, our federal dollars cannot legally be used to advance any religious institution whether that be a school, temple, or government. Therefore, the government is complicit in the crimes committed against Palestinians and others. This needs to end once and for all.

There simply is no excuse for Americans to send dollars overseas to Israel, Ukraine, or anywhere else. Our dollars belong here. Anything less is unpatriotic.

Quick question: are you Satmar or other Orthodox sect?
More importantly, what makes you an expert in sacred texts much less on God's will?

Or asked a little gentler, what makes you more knowledgeable than the millions of Jews who disagree with you and these interpretations?

No, you've not remotely come close to "proving" anything at all except your own ideological zealotry. But we already knew that, didn't we?

Can you provide a citation on the "hundreds of thousands" of "Jewish progressives". etc? Is being "openly sympathetic to Palestinians and other victimized groups" make one anti-zionist??? Does that mean I'm anti-zionist because I'm openly sympathetic to the plight of innocent Palestinian civilians? Which I am.

I don't think so.

I was wondering about the views of Jews regarding Israel, how they breakdown, knowing darn well this is not a monolithic group. Couldn't find much about these Jewish progressives" who are anti-zionist...but views do indeed vary as to degree of support, sense of connection, etc.

Here's some PEW research on the question: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads ... on-israel/

Everything else I found also made pretty darn clear that the very few Jews who are actually anti-zionist are almost all Orthodox, mostly just the two groups we've discussed representing less than 6% of all Orthodox...themselves a minority of Jews.

But hey, surely there are some other Jews who are anti-zionist as well...gotta be a couple here and there...

On your other arguments, they're interesting, though I disagree with your absolutist statements about what the Constitution allows or doesn't allow...clearly a whole heck of a lot of Constitutional scholars and SCOTUS Justices don't agree with you, but that's ok, you have a pattern of declaring absolute certainty of your views being superior to those of most anyone who is actually more expert than you. Par for the course.

I find your argument about American priorities at least more rational and I assume coming from a good place.

Yeah the argument made about separation in this instance isn’t even close to intellectually compelling, certainly not as the slam dunk presented here.

I was going to ask my BIL who’s degree from Berkeley is in Jewish Studies and works in the social sciences Dept surrounded by their folks focused on this to read through these pages and opine for me (presumably I’d share) then I realized maybe I’ll ask for thoughts but there is no point in sharing because some here don’t want to hear anything and then turn shrill thisfast when their assertions, declarations and statements are at all questions as if the word of god herself.