Israel and West Bank Settlements

[MDlaxfan76]

Torah demands Jews to not be zionist

read the Bible and you'll see that it is true:

Old Testament:
https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/ISA.43.4-6 (I'll round up your scattered)
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/ISA.11.11-12.KJV (shall assemble the outcasts)
https://www.biblestudytools.com/jeremiah/30-3.html (I will bring them back)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV (I will reestablish Kingdom)

New Testament:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV (you will not know the day)



Orthodox have used these instructions to condemn Zionism because it is very clear that only the Messiah can reestablish the Kingdom. Had you read the Bible you would readily know these verses. Now let's turn this around: go ahead and "prove" that the Orthodox practitioners are "wrong", show me where these verses do not exist, and show me where anyone is allowed to countermand these instructions on their own without divine authorization.

I'll wait for your "proofs".

So, a small fraction of Orthodox Jews are not pro-zionism, the rest are...so, what, all those other Orthodox Jews are misreading their sacred texts? They just don't understand that zionism is forbidden? They are ignoring God's clear commands? Only the small percentage of Orthodox Jews are correct?

Have you not ever read midrash discussions of sacred text? The most learned and scholarly Rabbis have for many, many generations argued about the meanings of specific words, phrases, texts, connecting various texts with each other in different ways, arguing context, arguing what is not written is as important as what is on the page...the debate between literal and poetic...

Frankly, IMO, it's one of the most admirable aspects of Jewish learning and thought, the importance of constant questioning. It's a search for "truth" and a search for how we should live in this world consistent with God's wishes. The search itself is valued, not simply the 'answer'.

BTW, who is to say that God's hand is not on the zionist movement? Who is to say what the limits are on God's fulfillment of promises? Who is to say that the mind of God cannot change? You? Me? a few Orthodox Jews?

BTW, I think it's equally offensive for some zionists to claim exclusive comprehension of God's will...or all sorts of such exclusive claims in my religious tradition, Christianity...or any religion...IMO, it's highly arrogant and often quite dangerous...

[Matnum PI]

well, for me the rejection of all modernism is indeed "strange", just as I would say the Amish choice is strange...so, for me, is the role of women...and most Jews agree with me on that. I don't find strange all sorts of eating or hair or clothes etc practices particularly "strange" to the point of being something with which I disagree or object, as they're merely observances of traditions they follow. I start having a more serious issue around things like the role of women and how that is enforced.

In general, not a fan of fundamentalism, but that's me.

But back to numbers. I didn't check your numbers, but you said there are 2 million Orthodox Jews and, of these, there are 100,000 Satmar. That's 1/20th or 5%. That is, if the numbers you cited are correct.

That's a small fraction. But I think you're simply misreading your calculator (?) saying 0.05 as not 5%...but that's what that means. 100% would be 1.0. 50% would be 0.5. etc.

Chasidim don't reject modernism. Chasidim own and operate B&H and they use and own the products. there not like the amish. Drive cars, use laptops, go to hospitals, I'm not sure what else would be considered "modern". Chasidim love tech. Programming is a popular chasidic/orthodox career. What is true is that they're, in general, conservative. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, that's very different. As for the role of women, you're not wrong. As said, they're conservative. A handful of Netflix shows and daytime talk shows make the treatment of women seem borderline psychopathic and these shows are about psychopaths. Not chasidim. That's a downside of being insular. You see very little about insular people but what you see becomes what people believe and, often, the people discussing the insular people aren't always so honest or so kind.

Right. 100,000 to 1,000,000 is 10%. So 2,000,000 is 5%. You're right. So the Neturei karta are about 1.25% of all orthodox Jews. It's small.

I'm not so sure that chasidim are any more fundamentalist than you are. For sure they live according to Torah law but, and I'm making a large assumption here, you live according to american law. For the sake of argument, pretty strictly.

[Matnum PI]

Much to your disappointment MD Hamas will lose this struggle. Too bad for you...

There is a definitely a history between you guys (and not just you two)...

[cradleandshoot]

Much to your disappointment MD Hamas will lose this struggle. Too bad for you...

There is a definitely a history between you guys (and not just you two) that I'm only learning about now...

The simple history is I use to respect him. That is no longer the case. He is use to bullchitting people and lying to them. I'm still waiting for the lifetime conservative republican to sound like something other than a liberal Democrat suckass... When I want some actual conservative perspective I will read OS.

[PizzaSnake]

I'll need that article posted here to read it...was it already? The thread is moving fast and I have a 'day job'!

pg 49, this thread, lengthy quote, posted by Kismet. Good detailed analysis.

Reasonable analysis, some open questions certainly, of what appears to be both intelligence and operational failures. It ignores the over arching strategic failure, but didn't purport to be discussing that aspect.

and sure, Hamas apparently gave some head fakes over the past months that led the intelligence is wrongly assume that Hamas wasn't preparing to take any particular actions, certainly not on any such mass, coordinated scale.

But that's a far cry from thinking that Hamas wanted peace or that Netanyahu and the right wing so wanted peace that they were fooled into thinking Hamas wanted that too...If that had actually been true, how stupid are they???

That NYT analysis makes many of the same points as the Dennis Ross interview you posted.
Both make the point that Bibi tried to work with Hamas, & neither makes the same hate filled, over-the-top, politically biased accusations against him that you & Friedman make.

Did I quote or parrot Friedman???

Did I post a Dennis Ross interview???

Perhaps you're mixing me up with someone else.

I read the article you pointed to and it definitely doesn't suggest that Netanyahu "wanted peace"; it only suggests that Israeli intelligence was fooled by Hamas' head fakes that they weren't preparing for immediate aggression, certainly nothing along the lines of this scale.

sure, it was what they "wanted to hear", given their focus on Israel's own aggressive actions in the West Bank...they 'wanted to hear' that Hamas was weak and passive, that subjugation was working in that quarter...clearly it wasn't.

That's why I said the article didn't address the errors in strategy, only focused on the operational and intelligence failures.

The strategy has been completely broken; it was just a matter of time.

An entirely new strategy is being put into play. I bet you won't like it one damn bit.

Like? Dislike? Who cares?

Without speaking for others here, what I would "like" is for this situation to improve. As it is, the policies and strategies that have been in place are singularly ineffective, presuming the desired end result is a lasting peace. Now, if the endgame is genocide or dissolution, then, keep on keepin' on.

48% of Gaza population is under 18. Think about that. Their entire existence spent under those conditions in that "open-air" prison. What is the likelihood any of them will be capable of non-violent, cooperative behavior? So, keep "mowing the lawn" and let me know how that works out as a mechanism for deterring the rise of the successor generation imbued with the same anti-social tendencies.

Forget what we "like" and we "want" to happen, let's look at what is most likely.

[Brooklyn]

So, a small fraction of Orthodox Jews are not pro-zionism, the rest are...so, what, all those other Orthodox Jews are misreading their sacred texts? They just don't understand that zionism is forbidden? They are ignoring God's clear commands? Only the small percentage of Orthodox Jews are correct?

Have you not ever read midrash discussions of sacred text? The most learned and scholarly Rabbis have for many, many generations argued about the meanings of specific words, phrases, texts, connecting various texts with each other in different ways, arguing context, arguing what is not written is as important as what is on the page...the debate between literal and poetic...

Frankly, IMO, it's one of the most admirable aspects of Jewish learning and thought, the importance of constant questioning. It's a search for "truth" and a search for how we should live in this world consistent with God's wishes. The search itself is valued, not simply the 'answer'.

BTW, who is to say that God's hand is not on the zionist movement? Who is to say what the limits are on God's fulfillment of promises? Who is to say that the mind of God cannot change? You? Me? a few Orthodox Jews?

BTW, I think it's equally offensive for some zionists to claim exclusive comprehension of God's will...or all sorts of such exclusive claims in my religious tradition, Christianity...or any religion...IMO, it's highly arrogant and often quite dangerous...

Deuteronomy 4:2 Moses declares, “You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commands of the Lord your God which I command you.” The only way to rightly “keep” God's commands is to not add or subtract from his word.

Hundreds of thousands of Jews believe it and that's why they oppose zionist ideology. Of course, many thousands more despise it from their political standpoint.

BTW, still waiting for anyone to prove to me that the Bible's teaching on this is incorrect.

[Farfromgeneva]

... Indeed, according to this link, a minority of fundamentalist Jews, though Satmar are the largest such sect of anti-zionist Orthodox Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism... Most Orthodox Jews at least accept zionism and Israel according to these citations. They read the same Torah... Satmar, at least by ideology, do not accept zionism, vehemently at times. That doesn't mean that all Satmar are necessarily uniform in their adherence to this or any other part of the ideology, but probably fair to paint with that brush generally speaking.

When you say "Satmar, at least by ideology, do not accept zionism, vehemently at times" what do you mean? My experience is very different. During the foundation of the state of Israel, Satmar thought Jews replacing the British mandate was a mistake but numerous decades later, Satmar chasidim recognize that the toothpaste is out of the tube and have a very different perspective. They personally may not want to live in Israel but they 100% support Israel's right to exist. They most certainly do not support Hamas and the anti-zionistic causes. (The Neturei Karta is a different story.) That said, even if you want to call Satmar Chasidim "anti-zionists" which, again, is simply inaccurate, there are 100,000 Satmar chasidim. (The Neturei Karta are a fraction of this, a much smaller group.) There are 2 million orthodox Jews. That means Satmar Chasidim are 0.05% of the orthodox jewish population. That's not a minority. That's an insignificant minority. And, again, Satmar Chasidim aren't even anti-zionists in the way that most americans discuss anti-zionists. i.e. They do not want the Jews out of Israel. That would be the Neturei Karta who would be around 0.01% of the orthodox population. Again, very small, not significant. 99.99% of orthodox Jews accept/support zionism and Israel... which I guess is "most" as you're saying but... You see what I'm saying. One would not be wrong to say "all".

there are many valid ways to 'read' and argue about the meaning of these sacred texts, rabbinic midrash. Eye-opening to this Christian used to having the priest or minister tell us what the Bible says and not really questioning it...but it's all open to question, indeed that may be the point!

What you're pointing at is a unique aspect of Judaism. People tend to look at observant (orthodox) Jews, Jews who live Torah-based lives as uniform, monolithic and there is some truth to this. Orthodox Jews can dress similarly, vacation similarly, go to similar schools, etc. and... So do all people. This is the nature of anthropology, sociology. i.e. Satmar chasidim point at Roland Park and their kids going to MIAA schools and wearing Vineyard Vines and etc. in a similar way to the Roland Park people point at the Satmar Chasidim. That aside, a unique aspect of Judaism is Jews don't have a, so to speak, pope. Jews live according to Jewish law and while there are universal laws, the laws are different for each, so to speak, jurisdiction. Very democratic, very subjective, very community-centered, very individual-centered. Jews question everything and encouraged to do so because the answer needs to be the answer for that individual. A unique thing, a good thing.

5% not 0.05% but otherwise proceed.

(100,000/2,000,000 = .05 or 1/20th)

[Matnum PI]

5% not 0.05% but otherwise proceed.

(100,000/2,000,000 = .05 or 1/20th)

phpBB3 needs a like button.

[PizzaSnake]

Torah demands Jews to not be zionist

read the Bible and you'll see that it is true:

Old Testament:
https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/ISA.43.4-6 (I'll round up your scattered)
https://www.bible.com/bible/1/ISA.11.11-12.KJV (shall assemble the outcasts)
https://www.biblestudytools.com/jeremiah/30-3.html (I will bring them back)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV (I will reestablish Kingdom)

New Testament:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV (you will not know the day)



Orthodox have used these instructions to condemn Zionism because it is very clear that only the Messiah can reestablish the Kingdom. Had you read the Bible you would readily know these verses. Now let's turn this around: go ahead and "prove" that the Orthodox practitioners are "wrong", show me where these verses do not exist, and show me where anyone is allowed to countermand these instructions on their own without divine authorization.

I'll wait for your "proofs".

So, a small fraction of Orthodox Jews are not pro-zionism, the rest are...so, what, all those other Orthodox Jews are misreading their sacred texts? They just don't understand that zionism is forbidden? They are ignoring God's clear commands? Only the small percentage of Orthodox Jews are correct?

Have you not ever read midrash discussions of sacred text? The most learned and scholarly Rabbis have for many, many generations argued about the meanings of specific words, phrases, texts, connecting various texts with each other in different ways, arguing context, arguing what is not written is as important as what is on the page...the debate between literal and poetic...

Frankly, IMO, it's one of the most admirable aspects of Jewish learning and thought, the importance of constant questioning. It's a search for "truth" and a search for how we should live in this world consistent with God's wishes. The search itself is valued, not simply the 'answer'.

BTW, who is to say that God's hand is not on the zionist movement? Who is to say what the limits are on God's fulfillment of promises? Who is to say that the mind of God cannot change? You? Me? a few Orthodox Jews?

BTW, I think it's equally offensive for some zionists to claim exclusive comprehension of God's will...or all sorts of such exclusive claims in my religious tradition, Christianity...or any religion...IMO, it's highly arrogant and often quite dangerous...

Any claims of the effability of Dog's will are suspect. I don't credit the Jesuits with much, but at least they recognize ineffability.

[PizzaSnake]

Much to your disappointment MD Hamas will lose this struggle. Too bad for you...

There is a definitely a history between you guys (and not just you two)...

The frisson of friction. What does the subtitle of the politics section say?

What need it is being met for those who post here?

[Matnum PI]

Max Abrahms @MaxAbrahms 4h
Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists and the massacre of Israel's South, a new poll released on Thursday found.
https://twitter.com/MaxAbrahms/status/1 ... 5317124234

[Kismet]

Breaking news: U.S. and Qatar agree to stop Iran from tapping $6 billion humanitarian fund as authorities probe Hamas attack in Israel.

Meantime, Orange Fatso declared the terrorists as "very smart" and derided Netanyahu - what a complete moron - Maybe we can trade HIM for a few hostages

[Matnum PI]

As of last Saturday, Hamas=Al Qaeda=ISIS.

[Matnum PI]

Interesting. Didn't think about this.

[NattyBohChamps04]

Max Abrahms @MaxAbrahms 4h
Four out of five Jewish Israelis believe the government and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu are to blame for the mass infiltration of Hamas terrorists and the massacre of Israel's South, a new poll released on Thursday found.
https://twitter.com/MaxAbrahms/status/1 ... 5317124234

Being weak on security has been about the only thing to knock Netanyahu out of power in the past.

[Matnum PI]

Max Abrahms @MaxAbrahms Oct 9
Hamas has Israeli hostages but also Palestinian hostages called the Gaza population.

[MDlaxfan76]

well, for me the rejection of all modernism is indeed "strange", just as I would say the Amish choice is strange...so, for me, is the role of women...and most Jews agree with me on that. I don't find strange all sorts of eating or hair or clothes etc practices particularly "strange" to the point of being something with which I disagree or object, as they're merely observances of traditions they follow. I start having a more serious issue around things like the role of women and how that is enforced.

In general, not a fan of fundamentalism, but that's me.

But back to numbers. I didn't check your numbers, but you said there are 2 million Orthodox Jews and, of these, there are 100,000 Satmar. That's 1/20th or 5%. That is, if the numbers you cited are correct.

That's a small fraction. But I think you're simply misreading your calculator (?) saying 0.05 as not 5%...but that's what that means. 100% would be 1.0. 50% would be 0.5. etc.

Chasidim don't reject modernism. Chasidim own and operate B&H and they use and own the products. there not like the amish. Drive cars, use laptops, go to hospitals, I'm not sure what else would be considered "modern". Chasidim love tech. Programming is a popular chasidic/orthodox career. What is true is that they're, in general, conservative. But, as I'm sure you'll agree, that's very different. As for the role of women, you're not wrong. As said, they're conservative. A handful of Netflix shows and daytime talk shows make the treatment of women seem borderline psychopathic and these shows are about psychopaths. Not chasidim. That's a downside of being insular. You see very little about insular people but what you see becomes what people believe and, often, the people discussing the insular people aren't always so honest or so kind.

Right. 100,000 to 1,000,000 is 10%. So 2,000,000 is 5%. You're right. So the Neturei karta are about 1.25% of all orthodox Jews. It's small.

I'm not so sure that chasidim are any more fundamentalist than you are. For sure they live according to Torah law but, and I'm making a large assumption here, you live according to american law. For the sake of argument, pretty strictly.

There are numerous Hasidic groups, right?

In the US alone more than 180,000.

I certainly agree that not all are as anti modernism as the Satmar.

I have multiple observant Orthodox friends and I’d agree that while they are more “observant “ in their religious practices than I am, I would not call them fundamentalists.

What I am uncomfortable with is those in any religious tradition which are anti modernism, demanding an adherence to a fundamentalist ideology and practice wholly out of context in a modern, pluralistic world. I’m also uncomfortable with anyone and any group that claims exclusive access to religious truth, god’s grace so to speak. Lot of that to be found in various religions!

[Farfromgeneva]

Bibi & Israel's other leaders wanted peace so badly, they were tricked into thinking they could trust Hamas. They were fooled by a very sophisticated disinfo op (see the NYT analyis posted earlier).

That first sentence is the most disingenuously mis-guided thing you may have ever said, and there is a large body of work to choose from there.

"Peace" to Bibi means "stay in your cage and keep your mouth shut." He's radically right-wing, you understand that, right? Always has been, always will be.

The news is all about how Israel "left" Gaza, left it to the Palestinians and well, they got what THEY wanted, so why would they pull off the sort of barbaric atrocities we saw last weekend?

Why indeed.

Read this recent Report which makes pretty darn clear that Hamas is overly militant and has suppressed political change in Gaza. They need to go. Hamas needs to be vilified and run out of Gaza on a rail, if not outright eliminated. These heinous atrocities need to be prosecuted vigorously.

But by a ground war with door-to-door fighting? Bombing with huge munitions? How will they tell Hamas members from "regular" citizens of Gaza? Do they care to differentiate?

The Israeli blockade of Gaza has effectively stopped Palestinians from evolving their society in Gaza. No airport, control of their water, electricity, imports and exports...it is a PRISON controlled by the guy you think is so desirous of peace. Peace on his terms no doubt, and just WHAT do you think are his terms?

He himself will NEVER allow a two-state solution. Saying he could be "fooled" by Hamas is just ignorant.

..

Everyone is tricked and stupid except him with his third eye wide open.

[Farfromgeneva]

Sure they do, but seems as though Egypt may have received different more specific intel than Israel/US? "Mind boggling" to me how this could have happened?

My guess is that when Hamas was sorting out strategies to do what they did, they had some obviously clandestine conversations with Egypt.

Perhaps. I'm sure you read it but here's Friedman's take again:

"I promise you that if and when there’s an inquiry into how the Israeli Army could have so missed this Hamas buildup, investigators will discover that the Israeli Army leadership had to spend so much time just keeping its air force pilots and reserve officers from boycotting their service to protest Netanyahu’s judicial coup — not to mention the time, attention and resources they had to devote to preventing extremist settlers and religious zealots from doing crazy things in Jerusalem and the West Bank — that they took their eyes off the ball."

May explain why populism as some kind of political advantage strategy isn't the best idea. Might be instructional for us Americans but likely lost on many. Look at the current dysfunction in the House and why they cannot elect a new speaker.

As for the Egyptian intell miss, likely explainable by the same problem. Political dysfunction and argument precludes paying attention to intelligence.

Where I one until definitive information otherwise

[Matnum PI]

...Lot of that to be found in various religions!

What's the difference between anti modern and conservative?