Matnum PI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:59 am
MDlaxfan76 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 11, 2023 9:40 amBut the right wing ideologues in Israel really aren't looking for peace and prosperity for Palestinians, they are solely focused on suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. And that's who is in power in this coalition.
I don't believe that to be true. I think there are Israeli politicians with less than idealistic goals (e.g. Wealth, power, etc.) but with rare exceptions, even amongst the far left and far right, they want peace. They may believe that peace can be attained through suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement. But they want peace. And, to be fair, they're not wrong. For example, if realistically, Peace won't happen for another few decades, another generation or more, how do you stay safe until real Peace can be attained? One might argue that this top gap measure is delaying peace and this may very well be true. But you gotta protect your kids...
mmm, I've been to Israel several times, invested there, had shabbat dinner with various families...the extremists, typically Orthodox but not solely (nor are all Orthodox extremists), definitely want to simply move all Palestinians out of Israel (as they broadly define it) by whatever means necessary. Force. They want a wholly Jewish state governed by Jewish laws and practices and they believe their land should extend well beyond current borders...they are in conflict with secular Israeli Jews, Christians, Muslims in these objectives.
The "peace" they wish for is solely for themselves, certainly not for Palestinians. And whether we like it or not, the Palestinians and neighbors all have a say in whether "peace" is actually sustained.
What you're talking about as 'reasonable' is SECURITY from violence (not peace). No society is immune from violence, all governments seek to limit/reduce it...though in different ways. And security is indeed an essential and "reasonable" objective.
What they differ on is not about how to actually achieve peace, it's rather how to achieve "security".
And right now the Israeli government is dominated by these right wing ideologues, many of them religiously-fascist in nature. That doesn't mean everyone in power is a right wing fascist, but the Netanyahu faction has found common cause and power through adoption of their tactics and goals...which is "suppression, elimination, subjugation, replacement" of the Palestinians.
Not a great analogy, but this in not unlike what has happened with the GOP with the rise of extremist populism, imbued with religious fundamentalism, conspiracies, bigotry and the like...it needn't be "all" to radically alter the shape of resulting policies. (I think the analogy fails in that I don't think the Dems or immigrants or fentanyl whatever shibboleth of the day represent the sort of real threat to America's very existence that Israel actually faces.)
The right wing extremists are NOT the majority in either country, but we see analogous moves to alter the rules of the system to lock in political gains, avoid or control constitutional restrictions and judicial outcomes, and we see a similar willingness to flaunt the rule of law.
Highly problematic.
People of good conscience can reasonably disagree on how to create and maintain security. But not all are fairly described as of "good conscience", IMO.
Nor is Hamas, obviously, lest tech think I'm soft on Hamas!!
The challenge seems to be finding peace whilst trying to have a low impact on the world and the people around you. Using that criteria, I agree. Elements of Bibi's current coalition, including Bibi, are not concerned about being low impact.
