Israel and West Bank Settlements

[Farfromgeneva]

I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Thanks for posting this, and I mean that sincerely. I will give it a better listen this evening after work. I got about 7 or 8 minutes into it, and found myself wondering how helpful, really, it is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, and the Crown's obligations after WW1.

As an American, I try not to be an apologist for either "side" in this mess. But the die is long cast now, Israel was formed and accepted into the international community in 1948. Much of the trauma we witness today seems -- and I am generalizing, which is probably a bad idea -- to be the outgrowth of the Arab world's inability and unwillingness to accept that Israel is a proper and legitimate nation state, with the right to its own self-determination and security. Israeli excesses or, if you want, "crimes" against the Palestinians derives from this decades-long unwillingness to accept the fact that Israel also has a legitimate claim to the territory, and that that claim precedes the Balfour Declaration by centuries.

And separate from all of this talk of historical antecedents and territorial primacy, I always ask myself: is Hamas the legitimate agent of the "Palestinian people"? Count me as doubtful.

Thanks seacoaster, sincerely as well.

It is a lot to take in and I'm going to listen a second time later when I'm more focused. At first glance, to me this women's historical POV seems legit. But of course this coming from someone whose extent of Jewish history was reading Leon Uris books a long time ago, a good read at the time

Me too: Mila-18 and Exodus, a long time ago.

Not to mention that EXODUS was historical FICTION.
Having listened to this discussion IMHO It's never a good idea to oversimplify complex issues in the name of "understanding". I'm afraid that Understanding complex issues requires complex understanding.

Understood; agreed.

The problem, of course, is that she's telling one side of the story. Where's the other side's view?

The thing that's always made me angry is that Egypt gets a pass, and could do so much to help the situation.

That is why I am asking, about this clip and generally, how helpful it really is to canvas the ancient history and territorial occupation of "Palestine," the Balfour Declaration, Britain's obligations after WW1, etc., because those sorts of debates generally get you to a dead heat of competing histories -- as I think they probably do here. I am suggesting that it may be best to jettison the historical territorial competitions, and focus on the reality on the ground: Israel received statehood and recognition from other nations, starting in 1948, and even Egypt in 1980. Palestinians were at the same time displaced and made into a subjugated minority in their own homeland. This is where we are.

My sister who’s a 20yr convert that goes to a Synagogue in Berkeley with a scent free section and hand twinkling instead of clapping (my Brother in Laws brother who used to Run ropes gray in Boston and did harvard/yale, finished summa and magna, has a joint in Kennebunkport Etc is horrified by compare with his type of synagogue). She and her whole crew has hated Netanyahu for years. They’re all Rodney Kings though-“why can’t they all just get along like in a commune”. But they long ago stopped blaming the Palestinians for this mess.

[Farfromgeneva]

I'm not posting this podcast to make any personal statement but to promote honest discussion

https://twitter.com/triggerpod/status/1 ... 7432035724

Very interesting opinion. What credibility does she have being a British Jew? Someone correct me here because I never knew that the Romans declared this territory as Palestine to eradicate the memory of the Jewish people. I thought the Palestinians people existed for ions and ions. I need MD lax to tell us he is darn sure her opinion is irrelevant.

... think you mean "eons and eons". Ions are what make the aurora borealis.

I thought that was made with milk and baby fat?!?!

[Farfromgeneva]

Here’s where AOC demonstrates her lack of substance. Of course I’m bringing her up when she’s already been forgotten and nobody cares about her 18mo after she was elected as I guess. To me, Omar and Jaypal are basically the post modern version of the liberal white suburban housewife of the 80s-90s, think their intellectuals but are fighting fights everyone sort of gets and are stuck in positions incapable of change over time as the world changes and it will on them plenty, already has. Just clowns waiving hands and never accomplishing much of anything.

But, while expected this will be interesting to watch on both sides. How many folks care about solving anything vs just a couple of “Mexican shootouts” (OB can use Corcular firing squad, in going good school reference here)

"Squad" comments on Hamas reignite Dems’ Israel tensions

House Democrats’ long-simmering divisions over Israel are bubbling to the surface in the aftermath of Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilians.

Why it matters: The overwhelmingly pro-Israel Democratic Caucus tends to tolerate the high-profile, left-wing "Squad," which generally is more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause — but Squad members' comments about the attacks have sparked a swift internal backlash.

Driving the news: To the dismay of some of their Democratic colleagues, Squad members' reactions to Hamas' attack included decrying the "cycle of violence" between Israelis and Palestinians and demanding an end to U.S. military assistance to Israel.

"I was pained to read those comments," Rep. Steve Cohen (D-Tenn.) told Axios.
What they're saying: Squad Reps. Cori Bush (D-Mo.) and Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) called for an end to U.S. aid to Israel, and Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.) said that "this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue" unless the funds are cut off.

Tlaib, a Palestinian American, did not mention Hamas and made only a passing reference to the recent violence in her statement, which decried the "Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day."
Other Squad members offered more cautious responses. Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) criticized Hamas' attacks and urged "de-escalation" between the two sides.
The other side: "I think that it's unfortunate that they made [these statements] at this time," Cohen said. "There's a time and a place ... but this is a time to reflect on the horrific, animalistic butchery of Hamas."

"There should have been reflection on the horrors that were caused to Israeli victims," he added. "I think it's a political mistake, and a moral mistake. It's morally wrong not to reflect on the atrocities."
Rep. Ritchie Torres (D-N.Y.) told Axios that "everyone in politics should clearly condemn" the attacks. "No one should blame the victim, no one should explain or excuse the terrorism."
Rep. Josh Gottheimer (D-N.J.), in a statement obtained by Axios, said of Bush and Tlaib's comments: "It sickens me that while Israelis clean the blood of their family members ... they believe Congress should strip U.S. funding to our democratic ally and allow innocent civilians to suffer."
The intrigue: The Squad members' comments even got pushback from the White House, with Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre telling reporters, "We believe they are wrong, we believe they are repugnant and we believe they are disgraceful."

"There are not two sides here," Jean-Pierre added.
President Biden delivered a speech Tuesday that was steadfastly supportive of Israel. He plans to ask Congress to provide additional military aid to the country, Axios' Barak Ravid reported.
The big picture: For House Democrats, this cycle — moderates disavowing anti-Israel comments from their left-leaning colleagues — is familiar.

The caucus was in a similar position just a few months ago, when many Democrats condemned Progressive Caucus chair Pramila Jayapal's (D-Wash.) for calling Israel a "racist state."
The bottom line: Democrats' broad support of Israel was reflected by House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries (D-N.Y.), who called on Congress to "stand with Israel until the invasion by Hamas has been crushed."

"Being loud does not make you right, nor does it make you strong, it just makes you loud," said Rep. Brad Schneider (D-Ill.), who cited the 390 co-sponsors on a bipartisan pro-Israel resolution first reported by Axios.
"Support to Israel is not a question. I mean, it just isn't," said another House Democrat. "Yes, there are these tweets from a couple members, but the rest of the United States Congress ... [is] fully there."
In an unusual show of unity, all 24 Jewish House Democrats — including some staunch progressives — signed onto a statement Saturday saying they "are united in standing with and supporting our ally Israel as it responds to terrorist attacks from Gaza."

[OCanada]

What Hamas has done is unspeakable and unpardonable. What Israel will likely do in response will be most likely also unspeakable and unpardonable. When and if it occurs I will condemn them as I have Hamas.

Your perspective that both sides should just be peaceful towards each other is not real, is not tenable. Also, FWIW, what happened this weekend is unspeakable, unpardonable. Bombing Gaza with to destroy military assets after giving civilians fair warning what is going to happen. I dunno. That seems like a very different level of unspeakable, unpardonable. Rape, murder, beheadings, kidnappings, etc. explicitly to civilians vs. a military operation in response with a forewarning of this operation so civilians can get out of harm's way. I dunno. The two seem very different to me.

I worked with a guy... he couldn't live in Israel because the residents didn't even understand how abnormal their existence was...

Agreed. Israel isn't for everyone. Especially as a home. Not a simple place to live. Lots of Jews like your friend.

As I said before, the endgame here, the eventual elimination of the Palestinian population, is abhorrent.

If that was the endgame for the Jews, they would've done it by now. It clearly isn't. Meir Kahane and his followers had this vision and he was sidelined and castigated. This is clearly not the Jews endgame. For Hamas and a huge percentage of the Palestinian population, this is precisely and openly what they aspire to. Nothing short of wiping the Israelis off the map will suffice. I recognize that it's harsh to couch the conflict in these terms but this is simply the reality.

Make no mistake Israel wants sll the land going back before statehood they fo not want statehood in a two state solution. They have also murdered Palestinians with no recourse.

As i have posted before it is a deep seated issue witj irreconcilable objectives

[OCanada]

What Hamas has done is unspeakable and unpardonable. What Israel will likely do in response will be most likely also unspeakable and unpardonable. When and if it occurs I will condemn them as I have Hamas.

Your perspective that both sides should just be peaceful towards each other is not real, is not tenable. Also, FWIW, what happened this weekend is unspeakable, unpardonable. Bombing Gaza with to destroy military assets after giving civilians fair warning what is going to happen. I dunno. That seems like a very different level of unspeakable, unpardonable. Rape, murder, beheadings, kidnappings, etc. explicitly to civilians vs. a military operation in response with a forewarning of this operation so civilians can get out of harm's way. I dunno. The two seem very different to me.

I worked with a guy... he couldn't live in Israel because the residents didn't even understand how abnormal their existence was...

Agreed. Israel isn't for everyone. Especially as a home. Not a simple place to live. Lots of Jews like your friend.

As I said before, the endgame here, the eventual elimination of the Palestinian population, is abhorrent.

If that was the endgame for the Jews, they would've done it by now. It clearly isn't. Meir Kahane and his followers had this vision and he was sidelined and castigated. This is clearly not the Jews endgame. For Hamas and a huge percentage of the Palestinian population, this is precisely and openly what they aspire to. Nothing short of wiping the Israelis off the map will suffice. I recognize that it's harsh to couch the conflict in these terms but this is simply the reality.

Make no mistake Israel wants sll the land going back before statehood they fo not want statehood in a two state solution. They have also murdered Palestinians with no recourse.

As i have posted before it is a deep seated issue witj irreconcilable objectives

By the way who has the authority to delete posts? I ask bcs i find some of mine missing

[Farfromgeneva]

Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

[cradleandshoot]

What Hamas has done is unspeakable and unpardonable. What Israel will likely do in response will be most likely also unspeakable and unpardonable. When and if it occurs I will condemn them as I have Hamas.

Your perspective that both sides should just be peaceful towards each other is not real, is not tenable. Also, FWIW, what happened this weekend is unspeakable, unpardonable. Bombing Gaza with to destroy military assets after giving civilians fair warning what is going to happen. I dunno. That seems like a very different level of unspeakable, unpardonable. Rape, murder, beheadings, kidnappings, etc. explicitly to civilians vs. a military operation in response with a forewarning of this operation so civilians can get out of harm's way. I dunno. The two seem very different to me.

I worked with a guy... he couldn't live in Israel because the residents didn't even understand how abnormal their existence was...

Agreed. Israel isn't for everyone. Especially as a home. Not a simple place to live. Lots of Jews like your friend.

As I said before, the endgame here, the eventual elimination of the Palestinian population, is abhorrent.

If that was the endgame for the Jews, they would've done it by now. It clearly isn't. Meir Kahane and his followers had this vision and he was sidelined and castigated. This is clearly not the Jews endgame. For Hamas and a huge percentage of the Palestinian population, this is precisely and openly what they aspire to. Nothing short of wiping the Israelis off the map will suffice. I recognize that it's harsh to couch the conflict in these terms but this is simply the reality.

Make no mistake Israel wants sll the land going back before statehood they fo not want statehood in a two state solution. They have also murdered Palestinians with no recourse.

As i have posted before it is a deep seated issue witj irreconcilable objectives

It is a deep seated political issue for sure. Hamas did the one thing I didn't think was possible. They just united all of Israel against them. I suppose murdering young people at a music festival is right up there with your inane comparison with people Israel has killed. It's the same only different. Even in the midst of being bombed to rubble the Hamas folks are still launching rockets at Israel. They don't give a chit about collateral damage now do they? As to the carnage being rained down on the Gaza strip... It sucks to be them doesn't it. This is barbarism 101 in action. The same barbarism is taking place in Ukraine. We just don't have the privilege of a front seat as to what is happening there. Mans inhumanity to man on full display. The killing fields grow larger every day.

[cradleandshoot]

Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

That was the Iron Sheik dude. And who didn't get their jollies watching Sgt Slaughter pile driving him headfirst into the canvass? He was Iranian by birth but the iron sheik sounded more bad ass.

[Farfromgeneva]

Antisemitism - peace.

How does all this square with: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/10/09 ... ppression/

The writer blames Israel and it's Apartheid that is the cause. I see it that way as well. All those progressives Jews who advocated for Palestinian causes that I knew in NY all wanted Peace. Not one was ever a Jew hater.

I don't know how to reply to this except to say, It's simply not true. To say that the Israelis are like the bigoted South African whites while Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians are like the blacks in South Africa is... It's just nonsensical. I don't even know where to start. For starters, the arabs wanted to wipe the Jews off the map well before Israel had even created a state. By definition, there was zero "apartheid" and still, the arabs were going to war with the Jews. That was not apartheid. That was antisemitism. Lest we forget, during WW2, these same people wanted to partner with Hitler because they had shared enemies: communists, English, and the Jews. (Hitler had no use for them so he moved on.) The apartheid narrative plays well for some, especially emotionally. But it simply isn't true.

As for progressive Jews who advocate for Palestine, I agree, it's a strange thing. And I believe that they want Peace. But they know not of what they speak. These are NY Jews. They may even be NY Jews who have traveled to Israel. And I'll challenge any of those NY Jews to walk into innumerable Palestinian areas. Not quickly in-and-out with a Palestinian tour guide who knows where to go to avoid being kidnapped. Just walk into one of these areas like Palestinians do in Israel. Without being kidnapped. Without being beaten, spit on, etc. And we can go full circle and say, Yes! But they do this because the Jews are oppressors! and... I just don't know what to say. (For the record, if an arab walks through any area of Israel, and they do, they will not be kidnapped, beaten, spit on, etc. If they put down a backpack and walk away from it, there'll be a reaction but that is very different from bigotry. Especially in Israel.) No intellectual honest person can look at the history of the arabs, well before the state of Israel through today and say, *That* is the reason why the arabs hate the Jews. There is no *that*. The only *that* that makes even a modicum of sense is pure unadultered antisemitism. And, sadly, without their even knowing it, many, many of these NY Jews, especially the assimilated Jews, are horribly antisemitic. Horribly.

Some folks forget or pretend “from the river to the sea” wasn’t expressed…

[MDlaxfan76]

... If they can't figure out a way to channel civilians out safely, it's going to be very, very ugly...

Palestinians can leave the West Bank, leave Gaza, they just can't walk freely into Israel. Israel, for obvious reasons, has security measures established. e.g. Palestinians have jobs in Israel. It's just that it's a hassle to get to work in the AM due to security measures. They need to wake up earlier. In other words, the Palestinians can move themselves away from harms way. I'm not saying leaving one's home is a pleasant experience. No more pleasant than the Jews from southern Israel who are also being forced to move. Bottomline, what's about to happen is not going to be a brief skirmish. This is going to be a full-blown war. Palestinians, especially in Gaza, are capable of moving themselves from harm's way. And they'd be foolish not to.

I think that's 100% incorrect at present.

At this hot moment, moving anywhere is extremely difficult.
Egypt is a closed border, as is Israel now. The sea isn't a viable option, either. Boats are being destroyed.
There are zero Palestinians from Gaza allowed to come into Israel at this time; this is full scale warfare.

Will Egypt allow refugees across, vetting them in some way? Not clear, but sure hope so.

[Matnum PI]

To say that NYC Jewish progressives, or the Jewish Voice for Peace, or that Albert Einstein and that roster of scholarly Jewish liberals are/were anti Semitic is the greatest lunacy I have ever seen.

Brooklyn, to support Hamas is to be anti-Semitic. With this said, feel free. There's a rally this weekend in Times Square. Go and wave a Palestinian flag. You won't be alone.

Everyone (including Brooklyn), I thought today's NY Times Daily podcast was very good. 27 minutes. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/podc ... hamas.html

[Farfromgeneva]

Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

That was the Iron Sheik dude. And who didn't get their jollies watching Sgt Slaughter pile driving him headfirst into the canvass? He was Iranian by birth but the iron sheik sounded more bad ass.

Yes mistyped. Actually met him before he died he lived in the suburbs of Atlanta like many wrestlers. He didn’t really enjoy the character personally. He made that clear. But was very proud of getting Hogan over after beating Bob Backlund for the title and being at the start of what became the dominant international wrestling business that he effectively ushered in w Andre, Hogan, Steamboat, JYD, Macho, Diabase and a few others.

You forget how Slaughter turned into an POS. Perhaps a warning for what was to come in our real world ironically.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o9us_aw0nQc

[OCanada]

To say that NYC Jewish progressives, or the Jewish Voice for Peace, or that Albert Einstein and that roster of scholarly Jewish liberals are/were anti Semitic is the greatest lunacy I have ever seen.

Brooklyn, to support Hamas is to be anti-Semitic. With this said, feel free. There's a rally this weekend in Times Square. Go and wave a Palestinian flag. You won't be alone.

Everyone (including Brooklyn), I thought today's NY Times Daily podcast was very good. 27 minutes. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/podc ... hamas.html

Then it follows that Benjie is antisemitic.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/1 ... medium=web

[Farfromgeneva]

Antisemitism - peace.

How does all this square with: https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2023/10/09 ... ppression/

The writer blames Israel and it's Apartheid that is the cause. I see it that way as well. All those progressives Jews who advocated for Palestinian causes that I knew in NY all wanted Peace. Not one was ever a Jew hater.

I don't know how to reply to this except to say, It's simply not true. To say that the Israelis are like the bigoted South African whites while Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians are like the blacks in South Africa is... It's just nonsensical. I don't even know where to start. For starters, the arabs wanted to wipe the Jews off the map well before Israel had even created a state. By definition, there was zero "apartheid" and still, the arabs were going to war with the Jews. That was not apartheid. That was antisemitism. Lest we forget, during WW2, these same people wanted to partner with Hitler because they had shared enemies: communists, English, and the Jews. (Hitler had no use for them so he moved on.) The apartheid narrative plays well for some, especially emotionally. But it simply isn't true.

As for progressive Jews who advocate for Palestine, I agree, it's a strange thing. And I believe that they want Peace. But they know not of what they speak. These are NY Jews. They may even be NY Jews who have traveled to Israel. And I'll challenge any of those NY Jews to walk into innumerable Palestinian areas. Not quickly in-and-out with a Palestinian tour guide who knows where to go to avoid being kidnapped. Just walk into one of these areas like Palestinians do in Israel. Without being kidnapped. Without being beaten, spit on, etc. And we can go full circle and say, Yes! But they do this because the Jews are oppressors! and... I just don't know what to say. (For the record, if an arab walks through any area of Israel, and they do, they will not be kidnapped, beaten, spit on, etc. If they put down a backpack and walk away from it, there'll be a reaction but that is very different from bigotry. Especially in Israel.) No intellectual honest person can look at the history of the arabs, well before the state of Israel through today and say, *That* is the reason why the arabs hate the Jews. There is no *that*. The only *that* that makes even a modicum of sense is pure unadultered antisemitism. And, sadly, without their even knowing it, many, many of these NY Jews, especially the assimilated Jews, are horribly antisemitic. Horribly.

I’ve heard Lev Leviev of Africa Israel investments talk some trash about the people that funded his empire over the decades. And he literally spent 20yrs issuing bonds in Israel to FUSB real estate and commodities acquisitions in the US and elsewhere.

[Matnum PI]

... but it is also not giving them a pass for their role.

And I don't think they're asking for a pass. No human, no nation is perfect. Israel can be a better partner with Hamas and Gaza. With this said, it is not simple to work with a partner who, from day one, wants to wipe you off the map.

[MDlaxfan76]

QFP.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Iran ‘broadly complicit’ in supporting Palestinian militants, but no evidence seen of a direct role in slaughter, officials say
By Joby Warrick, Ellen Nakashima, Shane Harris and Souad Mekhennet, October 9, 2023

Iranians carry pictures of slain Revolutionary Guard commander Qasem Soleimani as they attend a gathering in Tehran on Saturday to express their solidarity with Palestinians after Hamas militants launched a deadly assault into Israel from the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinian militants behind the surprise weekend attack on Israel began planning the assault at least a year ago, with key support from Iranian allies who provided military training and logistical help as well as tens of millions of dollars for weapons, current and former Western and Middle Eastern intelligence officials said Monday.

While Iran’s precise role in Saturday’s violence remained unclear, the officials said, the assault reflected Tehran’s years-long ambition to surround Israel with legions of paramilitary fighters armed with increasingly sophisticated weapons systems capable of striking deep inside the Jewish state.

Hamas, the Gaza-based Palestinian militant organization that led the attack, has historically maintained a degree of independence from Tehran compared with true Iranian proxy groups such as the Lebanese-based Hezbollah. But in recent years, Hamas has benefited from massive infusions of Iranian cash as well as technical help for manufacturing rockets and drones with advanced guidance systems, in addition to training in military tactics — some of which occurred in camps outside Gaza, the officials said.

U.S. and Israeli officials said they have no firm evidence so far that Iran authorized or directly coordinated the attack that killed more than 900 Israelis and wounded thousands. But current and former intelligence officials said the assault bore hallmarks of Iranian support, and noted officials in Tehran have boasted publicly about the huge sums in military aid provided to Hamas in recent years.

“If you train people on how to use weapons, you expect them to eventually use them,” said a Western intelligence official who, like others interviewed, requested that his name and nationality be withheld to freely discuss the rapidly unfolding events in southern Israel. The official, and a second Western analyst with access to sensitive intelligence, said the analysis conducted in the wake of the attack pointed to many months of preparation by Hamas, beginning at least as early as mid-2022.

In interviews, more than a dozen intelligence analysts and military experts expressed astonishment at the stealth and sophistication of the Hamas assault, which involved coordinated raids across the Israeli border by hundreds of gunmen traveling by land, sea and air — including motorized paragliders. The ground offensive was accompanied by swarms of rockets and drones that began streaking across the border early Saturday, hitting targets with a degree of precision not seen in previous Hamas attacks. While the Palestinian group has a capable militia and indigenous assembly lines for rockets and drones, an attack of Saturday’s scale would have been extremely challenging without considerable outside help, analysts said.

Israel’s military announced Tuesday that it is “moving into the offensive” after securing the country’s border with Gaza. As the death toll rises on both sides

“The amount of training, logistics, communication, personnel, and weapons required provides a massive footprint,” said Marc Polymeropoulos, a former CIA senior operations officer who served in counterterrorism roles in the Middle East. “This suggests both Iranian involvement, given the complexity of the attack, and highlights the colossal intelligence failure.” The use of paragliders — reminiscent of a spectacular 1987 attack by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Israel that killed several soldiers — “surely required training outside of Gaza,” Polymeropoulos said.

Jonathan Finer, the White House’s deputy national security adviser, said in an interview with CBS News: “What I can say without a doubt is that Iran is broadly complicit in these attacks. Iran has been Hamas’s primary backer for decades. They have provided them weapons. They have provided them training. They have provided them financial support. And so, in terms of broad complicity, we are very clear about a role for Iran.”

Iran denied a direct role in Saturday’s attack, while also praising the Hamas militants who carried it out. “We are not involved in Palestine’s response, as it is taken solely by Palestine itself,” Tehran’s mission to the United Nations said in a statement released Monday. But other Iranian officials publicly celebrated the attack while highlighting their close relationship with Hamas.

“You really made the Islamic Ummah happy with this innovative and victorious operation,” Iran’s official news agency, IRNA, quoted President Ebrahim Raisi as saying, using the Arabic word for the wider Muslim community.

The leader of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, acknowledged in an interview last year that his group received $70 million in military assistance from Iran. According to a State Department report from 2020, Iran provides about $100 million annually to Palestinian terrorist groups, including Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command.

Current and former intelligence officials confirmed that Iran had provided technical help to Hamas in manufacturing the more than 4,000 rockets and armed drones launched into Israel since Saturday. At least some Hamas militants also have undergone training in advanced military tactics, including at Lebanese camps staffed by technical advisers from Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Hezbollah, the officials said.

The Hamas militants who received training were likely elite officers who passed along skills to other fighters inside Gaza itself, said Michael Knights, an expert on Iranian-backed militia groups and founder of the Militia Spotlight blog.

“It’s a ‘train the trainer’ approach,” Knights said. “You don’t have to do a lot to train someone to be capable of operating a drone system, which is not complicated stuff anymore.” On the other hand, he said, the combined-arms breaching capability exhibited during Saturday’s assault “clearly was practiced and carefully planned somewhere. A whole bunch of fortified positions fell to sophisticated combined arms-breaching attacks. And you don’t just wing that.”

For years, Iran’s principal militia ally in Gaza was a different group: Palestinian Islamic Jihad. But gradually Tehran began bolstering its ties with Hamas leaders and increasing its support, said Ray Takeyh, senior fellow for Middle East Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.

“That relationship has deepened in the past few years,” Takeyh said. “It’s financial, political, at some level operational.”

Michael Eisenstadt, director of the Washington Institute’s Military and Security Studies Program, said that the relationship with Iran developed as a result of the Oslo peace process in the early 1990s when Tehran was looking for ways to scuttle efforts to forge a peace deal between the Palestinians and Israel. That was when Iran first provided the know-how for the explosive belts used by Palestinian suicide bombers.

The suicide bombing campaigns by both Hamas and Islamic Jihad had a “significant impact” on the peace process, he said. Hamas launched its first homemade rocket, the Qassam, in 2001 during the second intifada. But it was very rudimentary, using pipes and a homemade fuel mixture derived from sugar and other common components.

“Iran over the years has provided a lot of assistance to Hamas in terms of rocket capability,” Eisenstadt said. “The signature weapon of Iran proxies are rockets, and increasingly missiles. You see that everywhere — with Iraq, Hamas, the Houthis, Hezbollah. That’s very much inspired by Iranian example and advice.”

But other analysts stressed Hamas’s record as an independent actor, capable of carrying out sophisticated terrorism operations without outside instruction or supervision.

“This is a war between Hamas and Israel in which Iran is supporting Hamas, but Hamas is calling the shots,” said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA counterterrorism expert and now senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

While there’s “no doubt” that Hamas coordinates with Iran, the group’s relative independence makes it a harder target for Israeli and Western intelligence agencies, Riedel added.


“They do not routinely provide information to Iranian advisers who then communicate it home. There aren’t any advisers in Gaza,” said Riedel, who noted that it is difficult for ordinary Hamas fighters to leave Gaza for training abroad.

The rockets and missiles launched by Hamas may have been locally produced, but they possess a clear Iranian pedigree, analysts and weapons experts said.

Years ago, Iranian rockets were smuggled from Egypt through Sinai into Gaza. But after President Abdel Fatah El-Sisi came to power, Egypt closed many of the tunnels that connected Sinai to Gaza, and Iran began helping Hamas develop an indigenous capability.

“It’s better to give your proxies the ability to produce this stuff themselves than to have to worry about logistical pipelines that can be interdicted and cut off,” Eisenstadt said.

Some of the rockets produced by Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas have Farsi terms in the blueprints, Eisenstadt said. And a drone used by Hamas, called the Shahab, is based on the Iranian Ababil-2, a loitering munition which Eisenstadt said is almost identical to a model being used in Yemen by the Houthis, another Iranian proxy.

Though Israel Defense Forces have said there is no evidence of Iranian operational involvement in the attack, the tactics used are very much “in accordance with Iran’s concept of operations,” to create a “crossroads of fire” — launching an attack every few months or years to “undermine Israeli morale, sap Israeli resilience” with the aim of “undermining the long-term viability of Israel,” Eisenstadt said.

This is probably mostly correct.
"broadly complicit", but not directly operational in the slaughter.

As I observed earlier, the signs are that Hamas did not coordinate with anyone else, acted by themselves. Hezbollah would have been the obvious co-actor, with much closer ties to Iran than Hamas, but they were caught off-guard as well.

But sure, "broadly complicit"; you could make the same statement about the US being "broadly complicit" when Israeli ideologues murder Palestinians in the West Bank, creating settlements in their wake against international law. Or the US is "complicit" when Israeli soldiers shoot unarmed civilians, including a journalist. ETC...the difference, of course, is that we would not anticipate our government leaders to applaud such acts. (Trump is a legit concern as to what he will applaud or recommend...just look at his applause of murderous dictators...). It's disgusting that Iran's leaders are applauding this disgusting, horrific terrorism.

[Matnum PI]

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise...

The vast majority of Jews, high 90s percent, want peace. The internal fighting within Israel is how to get it.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Folks don't understand how full on crispy-crackers the hardcore pro-Palestinian faction is in the US... Idiots who would rather feel "right" then actually ending the conflict and body count.

I reserve the right to change my mind about this but... I feel like something similar is happening with Israel as happened with Black Lives Matter and Me Too and Gender Identification and etc. People seem to getting smarter, more nuanced, more empathetic. Obviously not all. But more than I've seen in my lifetime, people seem to be able to see that the conflict in Israel is about antisemitism, plain and simple. Not that Israel is perfect any more than blacks, women, etc. are perfect. But at least the Israelis want Peace. This is not the case for their "partners in peace". Not today, not ever. Plain and simple, they hate the Jews. And, though horrible, this trend makes me feel more optimistic.

Separately, the response from Harvard Professors to the letter sent by multiple Harvard Student Organizations (which I assume you all saw). https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bi ... sokG-1Vu2r

Do you think Netenhatyhu wants peace if not on absolute terms? I generally agree with the above. The regressives are aging out of this world as is the case with humanity. But I’m not sure all Israelis want peace of it means compromise. They wouldn’t have elected that guy. It would be like us electing Sgt Slaughter to get after The Iranian Sheik.

That was the Iron Sheik dude. And who didn't get their jollies watching Sgt Slaughter pile driving him headfirst into the canvass? He was Iranian by birth but the iron sheik sounded more bad ass.

Yes mistyped. Actually met him before he died he lived in the suburbs of Atlanta like many wrestlers. He didn’t really enjoy the character personally. He made that clear. But was very proud of getting Hogan over after beating Bob Backlund for the title and being at the start of what became the dominant international wrestling business that he effectively ushered in w Andre, Hogan, Steamboat, JYD, Macho, Diabase and a few others.

You forget how Slaughter turned into an POS. Perhaps a warning for what was to come in our real world ironically.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o9us_aw0nQc

I loved the Iron Sheik but wasn’t there also a second sheik?

[MDlaxfan76]

... but it is also not giving them a pass for their role.

And I don't think they're asking for a pass. No human, no nation is perfect. Israel can be a better partner with Hamas and Gaza. With this said, it is not simple to work with a partner who, from day one, wants to wipe you off the map.

I don't think Hamas as currently constructed can ever be a "partner" with Israel, but that doesn't mean that there aren't Palestinians in Gaza who could be their successors who could. Looking desperately for a silver lining, perhaps that will be the ultimate outcome.

[Matnum PI]

At this hot moment, moving anywhere is extremely difficult...

I'm sure you're right. Currently. And Gaza is a densely populated area.