NESCAC 2019

[ergit]

Random Midwest cupcakes, as you refer to them, make it in through an AQ.
You would be referring to mid-Atlantic cupcakes...
Wesleyan is most likely in as they have a better resume than the runner-up in either the ODAC or Centennial.

[Nothing But Net]

Random Midwest cupcakes, as you refer to them, make it in through an AQ.
You would be referring to mid-Atlantic cupcakes...
Wesleyan is most likely in as they have a better resume than the runner-up in either the ODAC or Centennial.

Does it matter? pretty much other than York, RIT and the Gulls .... anybody outside the NESCAC are Cupcakes

[ah23]

Unbelievable comeback from Tufts, and brutal loss for Middlebury. Panthers were up 13-8 at 1:40 of the third quarter and were dominated the rest of the way. Thought we were about to see a repeat of 2017, when Middlebury spoiled #1 Bates’ undefeated season on their own field in the NESCAC semis. Tufts still alive for the #1 seed in the north (and Bates keeps their slim NCAA chances alive).

Lots of credit to the Panthers for their improvement over the course of this season - plenty of questions to ask about how this one slipped away and how to avoid their slow starts to seasons, but basically everyone comes back next year. Many reasons to be optimistic up in Vermont.

[pcowlax]

Wow! What a game! I do feel for Midd, there are obviously a changed team from the first half of the year and one that, had they gotten into the tourney, could have done some damage. NESCAC lax is always better when there are some jaunty choruses of Panther Wonderland ringing out. Look forward to seeing what they can do next year. Amherst- Williams 8-7 in 4th, what a year for the top 6 teams in the league, amazingly strong.

[pcowlax]

11-8 Williams, final. What a year for the Ephs, though unlikely they have the talent to actually win a title, which is amazing and gives hope around the league given their years of at best mediocrity. Their future is bright too with their two stud attacks a freshman and sophomore, FOGO a freshman and keeper a sophomore, not to mention their 2 first team all- NESCAC guys, Hoffman and Stewart are juniors. I would love to see 3/4 final 4 teams from CAC, which they probably are this year, but can’t happen with the brackets.

[bullfrog1]

Go bo’s

[ah23]

One of these years the NCAA will not force all the NESCAC teams to play each other in the first few rounds of the tournament. If you can't beat the NESCAC, make them beat each other. Foolproof.

[bullfrog1]

I feel like every time Tufts wins something everyone is silent. Show some respect. I understand they always win and are dominant always but I’d expect some reactions. Sad!

[ergit]

Bullfrog1, I assume your tadpole plays for Tufts, no ...?

[Pitt12]

Should have sent him to Salisbury or Wesleyan maybe the kid would have got a ring.

[NeLax45]

NESCAC appreciation post- I don’t think that there is another conference on the country where Day 1 you are playing for your tournament life. Looking back though Wesleyan doesn’t make it in with out beating Williams. Testament to the quality of the league. Its too bad that we have to watch them cannibalize each other while the centennial gets spread throughout.

[Shock the World]

Wow! What a high quality weekend of lacrosse. Tufts winning not one, but two OT games highlights their poise and confidence in the NESCAC Championship weekend. Having so much success in the past definitely gave them confidence and faith when they needed it. But, I was very impressed with Williams College, showing that do in fact have the firepower and depth to make a run to win the entire thing. It's not easy to go from around a .500 season to championship Sunday and play in OT vs the 21st century powerhouse. I also was surprised by how low scoring the Amherst v Williams game was, but both teams had a week to prepare for the contest so there is no surprise they found ways to stop each others offenses. Middlebury heated up late in the season but gave them a tough path to the championship due to tough losses early in the season. Amherst will be coming into the tournament hungry and I would not be surprised if they came out of the North on top.

I am shocked that the committee put 3 Nescac teams in the top half of the Northern bracket, Inside Lacrosse reported that Tufts had the toughest schedule to go all the way (granted this is based off of the top teams in the bracket). Should be an exciting and great tournament with so many great teams. The big question is which team is going to start to heat up at the right time?

[HappyGilmore]

One of these years the NCAA will not force all the NESCAC teams to play each other in the first few rounds of the tournament. If you can't beat the NESCAC, make them beat each other. Foolproof.

So you think every year the selection committee says let’s screw the league that every conference should model themselves after.

[ah23]

One of these years the NCAA will not force all the NESCAC teams to play each other in the first few rounds of the tournament. If you can't beat the NESCAC, make them beat each other. Foolproof.

So you think every year the selection committee says let’s bag the league that every conference should model themselves after.

I think the NCAA selection committee should in a vacuum seek to have national championship contenders or highly ranked teams play as late as possible in the tournament. Year after year, the NESCAC has multiple highly-ranked teams with aspirations of playing on championship weekend. Having those teams play before the quarters (or in some cases even the semis) is contrary to the nature of the NCAA tournament, as it knocks contenders out early while artificially creating "parity". Yet the selection committee often does just this, crowding multiple top 10/15 NESCAC programs in one section of the bracket and ensuring that NESCAC contenders will be knocked out earlier rather than later.

As an example of this being both a solvable problem and one fairly limited to the NESCAC, look at how the selection committee dealt with other conferences in 2019. The Centennial has three teams in, and the ODAC and Capital each have two. Yet no team from any of those conferences can face a conference opponent before the national semifinals. The Liberty League is the only league with multiple (it has two) tourney teams that can have its schools meet before the national semifinals, and in that case Union is not good enough to have an argument about being unfairly denied a run deep into the tournament. Even so, I still think the selection committee should have tried to avoid a Union-RIT matchup that early.

I suppose there are two main counters. One is: "but geography!!!!" I do not think this argument is a serious one. St. John Fisher is being sent 6+ hours to play Gettysburg in the opening round; Elizabethtown has the same drive to face Amherst. John Carroll will drive five hours to play RIT; so will SUNY-Maritime to play Salisbury (Grove City would have had closer to a seven hour drive if they had won). Hamilton College might as well be on the moon, yet those players (and the rest of the NESCAC) manage to not fall to pieces or beg on the street to pay for hotel rooms when driving 4-8 hours every weekend to play conference games. Long distances between opponents is not something that is new or uncommon, and I don't think it's a valid excuse.

The second is that the tournament is also about "growing the game". This is a clear focus of the NCAA tournament. Look no further than the AQ system, which gives AQ slots to an increasingly long list of horrendous conferences in order to boost interest and spread D3 lacrosse to new regions*. Goosing the bracket to ensure that one or two conferences with multiple contenders don't dominate is in the same idea. It technically "grows the game" by ensuring a wider variety of teams make multi-game runs each year and thus increases interest in places that otherwise might not have a viable path to a deep tourney run.

So I dunno. I obviously don't think some shadowy cabal sits in a dark room at NCAA HQ laughing as they schedule Amherst and Williams to play a first-round game. I do think that they group NESCAC teams together so that they knock each other out earlier and there can be more conference parity in the later rounds of the tournament. Maybe that makes me a D3 lacrosse selection committee conspiracy theorist, in which case I will begrudgingly accept my title as "worse than flat earthers".

*FWIW I'm not against AQ system itself - the NCAA should always try to grow the game in new regions. I just think there need to be more Pool C spots so teams deserving of a bid (ex. St Lawrence, Bates, RPI) are not excluded just because Southern Tennessee College of Pottery won the "lose by a hundred goals to Salisbury" raffle.

[ergit]

How many of you googled the Southern Tennessee College of Pottery...?
I know I did.

[Atticus]

One of these years the NCAA will not force all the NESCAC teams to play each other in the first few rounds of the tournament. If you can't beat the NESCAC, make them beat each other. Foolproof.

So you think every year the selection committee says let’s bag the league that every conference should model themselves after.

I think the NCAA selection committee should in a vacuum seek to have national championship contenders or highly ranked teams play as late as possible in the tournament. Year after year, the NESCAC has multiple highly-ranked teams with aspirations of playing on championship weekend. Having those teams play before the quarters (or in some cases even the semis) is contrary to the nature of the NCAA tournament, as it knocks contenders out early while artificially creating "parity". Yet the selection committee often does just this, crowding multiple top 10/15 NESCAC programs in one section of the bracket and ensuring that NESCAC contenders will be knocked out earlier rather than later.

As an example of this being both a solvable problem and one fairly limited to the NESCAC, look at how the selection committee dealt with other conferences in 2019. The Centennial has three teams in, and the ODAC and Capital each have two. Yet no team from any of those conferences can face a conference opponent before the national semifinals. The Liberty League is the only league with multiple (it has two) tourney teams that can have its schools meet before the national semifinals, and in that case Union is not good enough to have an argument about being unfairly denied a run deep into the tournament. Even so, I still think the selection committee should have tried to avoid a Union-RIT matchup that early.

I suppose there are two main counters. One is: "but geography!!!!" I do not think this argument is a serious one. St. John Fisher is being sent 6+ hours to play Gettysburg in the opening round; Elizabethtown has the same drive to face Amherst. John Carroll will drive five hours to play RIT; so will SUNY-Maritime to play Salisbury (Grove City would have had closer to a seven hour drive if they had won). Hamilton College might as well be on the moon, yet those players (and the rest of the NESCAC) manage to not fall to pieces or beg on the street to pay for hotel rooms when driving 4-8 hours every weekend to play conference games. Long distances between opponents is not something that is new or uncommon, and I don't think it's a valid excuse.

The second is that the tournament is also about "growing the game". This is a clear focus of the NCAA tournament. Look no further than the AQ system, which gives AQ slots to an increasingly long list of horrendous conferences in order to boost interest and spread D3 lacrosse to new regions*. Goosing the bracket to ensure that one or two conferences with multiple contenders don't dominate is in the same idea. It technically "grows the game" by ensuring a wider variety of teams make multi-game runs each year and thus increases interest in places that otherwise might not have a viable path to a deep tourney run.

So I dunno. I obviously don't think some shadowy cabal sits in a dark room at NCAA HQ laughing as they schedule Amherst and Williams to play a first-round game. I do think that they group NESCAC teams together so that they knock each other out earlier and there can be more conference parity in the later rounds of the tournament. Maybe that makes me a D3 lacrosse selection committee conspiracy theorist, in which case I will begrudgingly accept my title as "worse than flat earthers".

*FWIW I'm not against AQ system itself - the NCAA should always try to grow the game in new regions. I just think there need to be more Pool C spots so teams deserving of a bid (ex. St Lawrence, Bates, RPI) are not excluded just because Southern Tennessee College of Pottery won the "lose by a hundred goals to Salisbury" raffle.

Great post. Agreed 100%. Early matchups between Top 10 teams are ridiculous.

[sguy9]

I agree with most of your post ah23. But one area that I am not sure most are clear about:

So I dunno. I obviously don't think some shadowy cabal sits in a dark room at NCAA HQ laughing as they schedule Amherst and Williams to play a first-round game. I do think that they group NESCAC teams together so that they knock each other out earlier and there can be more conference parity in the later rounds of the tournament. Maybe that makes me a D3 lacrosse selection committee conspiracy theorist, in which case I will begrudgingly accept my title as "worse than flat earthers".

The selection committee is not made up of NCAA employees, yes there is a rep on the committee, but the rest is made up of current diii coaches. They have a specific set of rules that they follow when seeding and scheduling.

[PicLax]

ah23 is spot on. The north and south brackets in general are lopsided, with north bracket significantly more challenging. In the south, Salisbury and York the clear favorites to make ff, and it would be a significant upset for either of them to lose before then. Believe the highest ranked team outside of Salisbury and York is Cabrini, which has 1 top 20 win this year. Not to say that other teams in the south besides Salisbury and York don’t have a shot, just that Salisbury and York are clearly favored.
Contrast with the north bracket where there are five teams that are viable contenders. While Tufts and RIT likely favored, Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan would not be surprises to make the ff. Again, other schools have a shot as well, just saying that it would not be a surprise upset for either of the five mentioned to make it.
The upper half of the north bracket particularly loaded with Tufts, Amherst and Wesleyan. All three well inside top 8 in the country, yet one will be out no later than the round of 16 (Amherst or Wesleyan). To make seedlings correct, either Wesleyan or Amherst should have been placed in the southern bracket.
As ah23 pointed out, Centennial has three teams, each within different quadrants. Instead of placing the four NESCAC schools in two quadrants (and thee if the schools in one quadrant), why not spread out as with Centennial?
While I am not necessarily a NESCAC devote, I do think that this year they have several very strong contenders, and it is wrong not to seed the brackets correctly to give the highest ranked teams the similar highest seedings and opportunity to make ff. I would make this same argument with any other conference. In fact, an argument can also be made to move either Salisbury or York to the north bracket (for example, swap with Tufts or RIT) and give the Capital conference a chance to have two teams in the finals.

[LibertyL]

Only a shadowy cabal would put Amherst v Wes. Come on let's at least admit that

[sguy9]

Only a shadowy cabal would put Amherst v Wes. Come on let's at least admit that

Well.... Coach MacCormack (Williams) is on the RAC. Maybe he wanted to be sure his Little 3 Trophy stays in Williamstown a bit longer by eliminating Wes or Amh?