2019 Bracketology Thread

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Homer
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Homer »

Cooter wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:13 am
admin wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:01 am
reLAX wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 10:56 amHow does ND, with an 8-6 record get an automatic pass in?
I don't think people, in general, are saying they do. SU, ND, Cornell, JHU, and UMD are all in the discussion about whose season is over.
I haven seen few mentioning Notre Dame being on the bubble.
Notre Dame and Hopkins are very directly comparable in an apples-to-apples kind of way, maybe more so than any other pair of teams in this group. Similar records, SOS, a bunch of common opponents... and ND to me clearly shows a bit better with their wins over Duke and Syracuse. JHU > ND would be the hardest choice for me to fathom of any pairwise comparison between any two of these teams. So if the assumption is that only one team is getting left out, I'd put a very low probability on that being Notre Dame.

Put another way: Hopkins has the insanely tough SOS, but not a lot of high-end wins; Maryland and Syracuse have the 4+ QWs but played a relatively weaker schedule. Notre Dame is the one team that has both, 5 QWs and a top-3 SOS.
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HopFan16
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by HopFan16 »

Homer wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:56 am
Cooter wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:13 am
admin wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:01 am
reLAX wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 10:56 amHow does ND, with an 8-6 record get an automatic pass in?
I don't think people, in general, are saying they do. SU, ND, Cornell, JHU, and UMD are all in the discussion about whose season is over.
I haven seen few mentioning Notre Dame being on the bubble.
Notre Dame and Hopkins are very directly comparable in an apples-to-apples kind of way, maybe more so than any other pair of teams in this group. Similar records, SOS, a bunch of common opponents... and ND to me clearly shows a bit better with their wins over Duke and Syracuse. JHU > ND would be the hardest choice for me to fathom of any pairwise comparison between any two of these teams. So if the assumption is that only one team is getting left out, I'd put a very low probability on that being Notre Dame.

Put another way: Hopkins has the insanely tough SOS, but not a lot of high-end wins; Maryland and Syracuse have the 4+ QWs but played a relatively weaker schedule. Notre Dame is the one team that has both, 5 QWs and a top-3 SOS.
I actually agree with this. I do not really think ND is on the bubble, in fact I think they're quite likely to get a home game.

I believe it is going to come down to Maryland vs. Cornell. Been saying that all along and nothing has changed my mind. Hope I'm right.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by keno in reno »

Notre Dame is safe because of their wins, but a win over Notre Dame (a 6 loss team) should not mean as much as beating a more consistent 2-3 loss team. Maryland also played them on a basketball court; it counts but it also was not normal lacrosse rules.

Bottom line is that every coach guaranteed a spot in this tournament would prefer to play Cornell because they are an easier opponent than Maryland.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by admin »

Who Should Go Home and Why

Image

At the bottom of this page are the bubble teams in order of FanLax Ranking. Like any ranking, teams can be moved up and down based on the powers given to Ws, Ls, Game Scores, or otherwise. Though factored in, FanLax doesn't emphasize game scores. We emphasize Ws and Ls.

1- Head-to-Head - As short-cut seeking human beings, we gravitate towards head-to-head Ws and Ls. But head-to-head is only relevant when there's a tie. e.g. The D1 Women rankings before BC lost to UNC. Their resumes were all but the exact same. Both beat UNC, SU, etc. You look at it and say, They have to play each other! That is not this situation. Their isn't a "tie" among this list. And, to jump to head-to-head before there's a tie is to jump to an inevitable tail chase. e.g. Cornell beat ND who beat SU who beat JHU who beat UMD who didn't beat Cornell so... UMD must be out! It's silly. That logic is awful.  And this same logic, though less egregious, holds true even when there's two teams involved in the tie.
2- Logic First, Numbers Second - You're as good as the teams you beat, as bad as the teams you lose to. That's good logic. So if a team beats #6, #5, #4, and #3, and loses to #1, it stands to reason that they should be #2. Usually the numbers aren't this neat but the reasoning is meaningful. With this in mind, this is the logic (and numbers) that were used to rank the teams below. Cornell lost 5 games but as those games were against Top Teams, it didn't hurt them very much. The loss that hurt them the most was vs. SU and, coupled with Ws vs. ND and Towson, they have a pretty good ranking. Alternatively, SU has 3 quality Ws and only 4 losses but three of those losses are to #11 ND... and #14 UNC... and #41 Colgate. That's a problem. Not a season ending problem necessarily but, in terms of our teams-you-beat-teams-you-lose-to logic, it's a problem.
3- Some Broad Brushstrokes, Some Decision Making - From where we're sitting, from our logical perspective, Cornell and UMD are the safest, JHU is relatively safe, and... ND and SU are fighting for that last spot. And we can easily list 5 reasons why ND should go home as well as 5 reasons why SU should go home. Heck, look at the Points. This is basically a tie. And, with a tie, we should go with head-to-head... which favors Notre Dame. But we already discussed "ties" and head-to-head.  Instead, remembering our mantra, you're as good as the teams you beat, as bad as the teams you lose to, and... It's really close. Wipe away the Colgate loss and Syracuse is easily a Top Team and undeniably in the tournament. But you can't just ignore a game? There is no simple answer. But from where we're sitting, the answer is either Notre Dame or Syracuse.

#5 Cornell: Beat Notre Dame and Towson, Lost to numerous top teams with a worst loss of Syracuse.
#7 Maryland: Beat Penn and UNC/Villanova, Lost to PSU as well as 2 almost top teams: Notre Dame and JHU x2.
#9 JHU: Beat UMD x2 and UNC, Lost to 2 top teams, 3 almost top teams, and a worst loss to #16 OSU.
#11 Notre Dame: Beat #4 Duke, #7 UMD, and #12 SU, Lost to 3 top teams as well as Cornell, #16 OSU, and #23 Richmond.
#12 SU: Beat #4 Duke, #5 Cornell, #9 JHU, Lost to UVA, ND, UNC, and a worst loss of #41 Colgate.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by stupefied »

Syracuse will be in and could host . Played in the strongest conference with no weak teams . Lost four games by total deficit of eight .Thrashed both Hopkins and Cornell .Big Red lost five by -22. Hopkins has lost seven games with a total deficit of 37 goals. Should Rutgers get in because they lost to PSU by one? Hopkins aint out of the woods by any means
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Big Dog »

laxreference wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 5:11 am Here is a quick statistical comparison of the teams that the committee is going to be discussing today:



BubbleComp_Johns_Hopkins_Notre_Dame_Syracuse_Maryland_Cornell_20190505.png



Obviously, everyone has at least one argument in their favor. Here are the full SOR ratings as well.
Even with my Blue eyeglasses, I put 'Cuse in over Hopkins. (but then I'd put them both in).
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by admin »

With SOR, High Point, Army, Denver, Ohio State, and Georgetown are all ranked above Notre Dame and Hopkins...
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by DocBarrister »

runrussellrun wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:53 am
a fan wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 11:21 am
Cooter wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 10:33 am On the other hand, with respect to Syracuse and Maryland, how often has a team with 5 top 20 RPI wins and 1 in the top 5 been left out of the tournament.
I've never seen it with 4 wins. 5 just isn't going to happen. The committee will ignore RPI and SOS before they deny bids to teams with 5 top 20 wins.

Meade is on the committee. No chance he'd let that happen. Syracuse and Md are vying for home games, if you ask me.
It's a form of gerry mandering, IMHO. What else can you say about a system, primarily based on opponents records, but doesnt account for "top" rpi teams having never playing ANY team from 40-50% of the 9 conferences. Or even only one team playing one team from a conference, primarily for geographic reasons (Navy, Loyola.......but rarely to never Bucknell, Lehigh, BU....or......who from the BIG EAST has anyone from the B1G played??? )
Yeah, but has Bucknell, BU, or Lehigh ever given FREE STUFF to ACC or B1G team coaches? Even a Starbucks gift card?!?

No? ‘Nuff said. No gift cards, no games. Way the world works, pal.

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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Hawkeye »

HopFan16 wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 12:01 pm I believe it is going to come down to Maryland vs. Cornell. Been saying that all along and nothing has changed my mind. Hope I'm right.
This is it right here. I'll have my final projected bracket up as soon as these two games go final. This is the bubble.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Cooter »

HopFan16 wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 12:01 pm
I believe it is going to come down to Maryland vs. Cornell. Been saying that all along and nothing has changed my mind. Hope I'm right.
That probably would not be good for Cornell. Maryland has 5 top 20 RPI wins to Cornell's 2. Maryland has 4 losses to Cornell's 5, in either case all to top 10 RPI times. Maryland's RPI is slightly higher.

The Hopkins-Cornell comparision is closer, and in my opinion more likely to happen. Hopkins has 3 top 20 RPI wins to Cornell's 2, but both of Cornell's are in the top 10, while none of Hopkins' 3 wins are top 10. Cornell has 5 losses to Hopkins 7, and Cornell's losses are all to top 10 RPI teams, while one of Hopkins' losses is to #14 OSU. Hopkins does have a higher RPI.
I think Cornell wins this match-up.

All these teams have their little flaws, but the thing I think Hopkins' fans like you tend to overlook is that Hopkins is 8-7, and if this glaring void of being 0-6 against top 10 RPI teams.

That being said, as we all know Cornell would not be selected, because it's Hopkins.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Hawkeye »

Cooter wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:28 pm That being said, as we all know Cornell would not be selected, because it's Hopkins.
And so the spin begins.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by HopFan16 »

Hawkeye wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:33 pm
Cooter wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:28 pm That being said, as we all know Cornell would not be selected, because it's Hopkins.
And so the spin begins.
Coots is nervous, as he should be.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Stopper Harley »

I think people are putting way too much emphasis comparing quality wins and not enough on bad losses. When analyzing these top teams the SOS/RPI has to be taken with a grain of salt unless a team schedules nothing but cupcakes out of conference. Pretty much any team from the ACC, B1G and IVY play tough schedules.

If the selection committee is anything like the the CFP committee then overall record should be the most important aspect when comparing schools from these and other top conferences (when applicable.) From there you then look at head to head, quality wins, conference titles won, SOS etc.

In my opinion the last spot should come down to ND and JHU. With two blowout losses and a record that is one game over .500, I don't think JHU is deserving. They looked great the past two weeks with two wins over MD but when looking at their entire body of work I don't think that is enough. Two weeks ago their alumni/fans were ready to run Petro out of town. They should be proud of the heart and leadership their team showed but you can't just give them the benefit of the doubt now because of the name on their jersey.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by reLAX »

Stopper Harley wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:40 pm I think people are putting way too much emphasis comparing quality wins and not enough on bad losses. When analyzing these top teams the SOS/RPI has to be taken with a grain of salt unless a team schedules nothing but cupcakes out of conference. Pretty much any team from the ACC, B1G and IVY play tough schedules.

If the selection committee is anything like the the CFP committee then overall record should be the most important aspect when comparing schools from these and other top conferences (when applicable.) From there you then look at head to head, quality wins, conference titles won, SOS etc.

In my opinion the last spot should come down to ND and JHU. With two blowout losses and a record that is one game over .500, I don't think JHU is deserving. They looked great the past two weeks with two wins over MD but when looking at their entire body of work I don't think that is enough. Two weeks ago their alumni/fans were ready to run Petro out of town. They should be proud of the heart and leadership their team showed but you can't just give them the benefit of the doubt now because of the name on their jersey.
Excellent post. Finally some rational thinking!
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by DocBarrister »

HopFan16 wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:35 pm
Hawkeye wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:33 pm
Cooter wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:28 pm That being said, as we all know Cornell would not be selected, because it's Hopkins.
And so the spin begins.
Coots is nervous, as he should be.
I think Patrick Stevens at US Lacrosse may be right. Avg RPI Wins is definitely a selection factor. Hopkins has an Avg RPI Win of 23, better than Loyola, Virginia, Yale, Penn, and Maryland. Cornell is a clear outlier here with 35.

Plus, if B1G and Ivy are two-bid leagues (in total), then Hopkins is in the conversation as the second best B1G team while Cornell is not.

Plus Rule 13 of the NCAA Lacrosse Tournament Selection Handbook clearly states “Cornell must be scr*w*d.”

Can we all agree that Cornell should be left out in the cold of Ithaca? I think that would promote world peace. :ugeek:

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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by HopFan16 »

Stopper Harley wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:40 pm I think people are putting way too much emphasis comparing quality wins and not enough on bad losses. When analyzing these top teams the SOS/RPI has to be taken with a grain of salt unless a team schedules nothing but cupcakes out of conference. Pretty much any team from the ACC, B1G and IVY play tough schedules.

If the selection committee is anything like the the CFP committee then overall record should be the most important aspect when comparing schools from these and other top conferences (when applicable.) From there you then look at head to head, quality wins, conference titles won, SOS etc.

In my opinion the last spot should come down to ND and JHU. With two blowout losses and a record that is one game over .500, I don't think JHU is deserving. They looked great the past two weeks with two wins over MD but when looking at their entire body of work I don't think that is enough. Two weeks ago their alumni/fans were ready to run Petro out of town. They should be proud of the heart and leadership their team showed but you can't just give them the benefit of the doubt now because of the name on their jersey.
If Hopkins gets in, it's not because they're "getting the benefit of the doubt." It's because given the selection criteria, their resume will have been worthy. They are going to finish as either the #7 or #8 RPI team.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by DocBarrister »

reLAX wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:43 pm
Stopper Harley wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:40 pm I think people are putting way too much emphasis comparing quality wins and not enough on bad losses. When analyzing these top teams the SOS/RPI has to be taken with a grain of salt unless a team schedules nothing but cupcakes out of conference. Pretty much any team from the ACC, B1G and IVY play tough schedules.

If the selection committee is anything like the the CFP committee then overall record should be the most important aspect when comparing schools from these and other top conferences (when applicable.) From there you then look at head to head, quality wins, conference titles won, SOS etc.

In my opinion the last spot should come down to ND and JHU. With two blowout losses and a record that is one game over .500, I don't think JHU is deserving. They looked great the past two weeks with two wins over MD but when looking at their entire body of work I don't think that is enough. Two weeks ago their alumni/fans were ready to run Petro out of town. They should be proud of the heart and leadership their team showed but you can't just give them the benefit of the doubt now because of the name on their jersey.
Excellent post. Finally some rational thinking!
Except that the committee isn’t going to take Maryland over Hopkins.

If they take Maryland, which I believe they will, they’ll find a way to take Hopkins as well.

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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by DocBarrister »

HopFan16 wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:49 pm
Stopper Harley wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:40 pm I think people are putting way too much emphasis comparing quality wins and not enough on bad losses. When analyzing these top teams the SOS/RPI has to be taken with a grain of salt unless a team schedules nothing but cupcakes out of conference. Pretty much any team from the ACC, B1G and IVY play tough schedules.

If the selection committee is anything like the the CFP committee then overall record should be the most important aspect when comparing schools from these and other top conferences (when applicable.) From there you then look at head to head, quality wins, conference titles won, SOS etc.

In my opinion the last spot should come down to ND and JHU. With two blowout losses and a record that is one game over .500, I don't think JHU is deserving. They looked great the past two weeks with two wins over MD but when looking at their entire body of work I don't think that is enough. Two weeks ago their alumni/fans were ready to run Petro out of town. They should be proud of the heart and leadership their team showed but you can't just give them the benefit of the doubt now because of the name on their jersey.
If Hopkins gets in, it's not because they're "getting the benefit of the doubt." It's because given the selection criteria, their resume will have been worthy. They are going to finish as either the #7 or #8 RPI team.
Yep. RPI of 8. SOS of 1 or 2. Avg RPI Wins 23, as good as Duke’s. Plus, clearly the second best team in B1G.

Am I certain Hopkins will get in? Nope. But they have a very strong case.

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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by NoLeft »

DocBarrister wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:59 pm
HopFan16 wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:49 pm
Stopper Harley wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 1:40 pm I think people are putting way too much emphasis comparing quality wins and not enough on bad losses. When analyzing these top teams the SOS/RPI has to be taken with a grain of salt unless a team schedules nothing but cupcakes out of conference. Pretty much any team from the ACC, B1G and IVY play tough schedules.

If the selection committee is anything like the the CFP committee then overall record should be the most important aspect when comparing schools from these and other top conferences (when applicable.) From there you then look at head to head, quality wins, conference titles won, SOS etc.

In my opinion the last spot should come down to ND and JHU. With two blowout losses and a record that is one game over .500, I don't think JHU is deserving. They looked great the past two weeks with two wins over MD but when looking at their entire body of work I don't think that is enough. Two weeks ago their alumni/fans were ready to run Petro out of town. They should be proud of the heart and leadership their team showed but you can't just give them the benefit of the doubt now because of the name on their jersey.
If Hopkins gets in, it's not because they're "getting the benefit of the doubt." It's because given the selection criteria, their resume will have been worthy. They are going to finish as either the #7 or #8 RPI team.
Yep. RPI of 8. SOS of 1 or 2. Avg RPI Wins 23, as good as Duke’s. Plus, clearly the second best team in B1G.

Am I certain Hopkins will get in? Nope. But they have a very strong case.

DocBarrister 8-)
You know better than that, Doc. If JHU finishes above .500, they get in the NCAA tournament. Done deal.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by 44WeWantMore »

Copying from the Big Red forum:
laxfan1313 wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 10:29 pm The key appears to be adding the RPI ranking to the Quality Win ranking plus half the strength of schedule ranking. The lower the number the better. At this point, after PSU defeated JHU, the numbers for the final 2 at large spots are:

Cornell: 20.50
Notre Dame: 21.00
JHU: 24.50
Maryland: 24.50
Syracuse: 27.00
Seems to match LaxBytes.

Code: Select all

  13 Cornell               94.42
  14 Notre Dame            87.52
  15 Johns Hopkins         68.83
  16 Maryland              68.83
  18 Syracuse              53.02
Apparent separation between the top two and bottom three. Cornell and ND seem safer, and JHU, UMD, and SU need to worry. If it is strictly by the numbers above, JHU and UMD are safe. If the committee says the numbers of the bottom three are within the margin of error, and goes to H2H, then SU claims the H2H over JHU, and JHU claims the H2H over UMD, leaving UMD out.
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