NCAA reorg imminent

[Essexfenwick]

I remember the arrogant ACC attitude when UMD defected. Some people even said that Louisville was a more valuable member. Then Duke said they would never play UMD again. They all got together in a huge meeting and developed / signed the ironclad GOR and smugly waxed secure and superior.

I remember thinking “ What’s FSU doing signing that thing? Are they stupid or do they know something that is secret and not totally obvious?”

Well it turns out that FSU must be run by stupid administrators and that doesn’t say much for the education quality. Everybody else wouldn’t definitely have a landing spot due to a number of factors so they have some excuses.

At any rate the loss of its most valuable member really did a number on the ACC. I feel bad for those schools.

[wgdsr]

I remember the arrogant ACC attitude when UMD defected. Some people even said that Louisville was a more valuable member. Then Duke said they would never play UMD again. They all got together in a huge meeting and developed / signed the ironclad GOR and smugly waxed secure and superior.

I remember thinking “ What’s FSU doing signing that thing? Are they stupid or do they know something that is secret and not totally obvious?”

Well it turns out that FSU must be run by stupid administrators and that doesn’t say much for the education quality. Everybody else wouldn’t definitely have a landing spot due to a number of factors so they have some excuses.

At any rate the loss of its most valuable member really did a number on the ACC. I feel bad for those schools.

pretty sure there's a little bias there on labelling umd it's most valuable member. no matter, though, i agree that individually a 20 year deal for many of these schools seemed really stupid. especially as the b1g and sec were having success on shorter contracts.

the "problem" was @ that time there had already been exponential increases in $$ over the previous decade, there were already questions about the longstanding nature of linear cable's future, and the thought that we might be nearing a high-water mark. still, 20 years is a long effin' time.

[Essexfenwick]

I remember the arrogant ACC attitude when UMD defected. Some people even said that Louisville was a more valuable member. Then Duke said they would never play UMD again. They all got together in a huge meeting and developed / signed the ironclad GOR and smugly waxed secure and superior.

I remember thinking “ What’s FSU doing signing that thing? Are they stupid or do they know something that is secret and not totally obvious?”

Well it turns out that FSU must be run by stupid administrators and that doesn’t say much for the education quality. Everybody else wouldn’t definitely have a landing spot due to a number of factors so they have some excuses.

At any rate the loss of its most valuable member really did a number on the ACC. I feel bad for those schools.

pretty sure there's a little bias there on labelling umd it's most valuable member. no matter, though, i agree that individually a 20 year deal for many of these schools seemed really stupid. especially as the b1g and sec were having success on shorter contracts.

the "problem" was @ that time there had already been exponential increases in $$ over the previous decade, there were already questions about the longstanding nature of linear cable's future, and the thought that we might be nearing a high-water mark. still, 20 years is a long effin' time.

Sorry I’m just talking most valuable in money terms. All the acc folks are good enough, smart enough and doggone… people like them.

[wgdsr]

I remember the arrogant ACC attitude when UMD defected. Some people even said that Louisville was a more valuable member. Then Duke said they would never play UMD again. They all got together in a huge meeting and developed / signed the ironclad GOR and smugly waxed secure and superior.

I remember thinking “ What’s FSU doing signing that thing? Are they stupid or do they know something that is secret and not totally obvious?”

Well it turns out that FSU must be run by stupid administrators and that doesn’t say much for the education quality. Everybody else wouldn’t definitely have a landing spot due to a number of factors so they have some excuses.

At any rate the loss of its most valuable member really did a number on the ACC. I feel bad for those schools.

pretty sure there's a little bias there on labelling umd it's most valuable member. no matter, though, i agree that individually a 20 year deal for many of these schools seemed really stupid. especially as the b1g and sec were having success on shorter contracts.

the "problem" was @ that time there had already been exponential increases in $$ over the previous decade, there were already questions about the longstanding nature of linear cable's future, and the thought that we might be nearing a high-water mark. still, 20 years is a long effin' time.

Sorry I’m just talking most valuable in money terms. All the acc folks are good enough, smart enough and doggone… people like them.

yes, i know what u meant. it's both cute and entertaining when terp (and rutgers) fans talk about how exclusively valuable they were. it's a bit more complicated.

on a similar note, here's a good article q&a with delany. the king of all of this for a very long time as far as being ahead of folks.. lot of history and how they and other conferences were acting, reacting. the acc had a predator role as u say, and i have no sympathy for them. this is about money (and maybe power) and they have made their own beds. my hope is that nc$$ sports inclusive of uva is watchable as it all schusses out.
https://theathletic.com/4676257/2023/07 ... ed-article
paywall (athletic is worth it) but probably too long to copy and paste.

[ggait]

At the time, the acc was the hunter having just off-ed the big east. And having just seen the big 12 (without any gor protection) get raided by the pac 10, the big 10 and the sec.

So locking down the members for stability made total sense.

What didn’t make sense was doing a 20 year media deal. Which was kinda like locking in a great sale price for your house in 2016. Because it could never ever go higher.

Funny how things change. The big 12 was teetering having lost Colorado Missouri nebraska and Tamu. And the pac 10 and acc were all that.

[Farfromgeneva]

I remember the arrogant ACC attitude when UMD defected. Some people even said that Louisville was a more valuable member. Then Duke said they would never play UMD again. They all got together in a huge meeting and developed / signed the ironclad GOR and smugly waxed secure and superior.

I remember thinking “ What’s FSU doing signing that thing? Are they stupid or do they know something that is secret and not totally obvious?”

Well it turns out that FSU must be run by stupid administrators and that doesn’t say much for the education quality. Everybody else wouldn’t definitely have a landing spot due to a number of factors so they have some excuses.

At any rate the loss of its most valuable member really did a number on the ACC. I feel bad for those schools.

pretty sure there's a little bias there on labelling umd it's most valuable member. no matter, though, i agree that individually a 20 year deal for many of these schools seemed really stupid. especially as the b1g and sec were having success on shorter contracts.

the "problem" was @ that time there had already been exponential increases in $$ over the previous decade, there were already questions about the longstanding nature of linear cable's future, and the thought that we might be nearing a high-water mark. still, 20 years is a long effin' time.

Bias or brain damage? It’s not even close to accurate. TNT execs were talking about the triple and quadruple play in 2005. The arguments made about subs is so anachronistic as to be worthless.

The assets they finance like stadiums are paid off in 20-30yr periods. It’s a good thing to match assets (contract receivables) with liabilities (debt obligations on fixed assets). Second guessing market rates in the future isn’t what good Mgt does.

[ggait]

Hey Doc -- here's what one of your "Magnificent 7" ACC leavers is saying these days:

On August 2, 2023, University of North Carolina Athletic Director Bubba Cunningham reacted to the comments from President McCullough [of FSU] in an interview with 99.9 - The Fan - in Raleigh, North Carolina.

"I don't think it's good for our league for them to be out there barking like that,” stated Cunningham. "I'd rather see them be a good member of the league, support the league and if they have to make a decision, then so be it. Pay for the exit fee, wait for your grant of rights that you've given and then in 2036, when those rights return to you, do whatever you want.”

If the UNC President and BOT were really planning to leave anytime soon, do you think they'd be having their AD say stuff like this? Seems like UNC thinks the GOR is solid.

Or maybe the AD is spreading smoke screen disinformation to cover for the plot that UNC is hatching with the other Magnificents? Let me know your thoughts on that. Since conspiracy theories seem to be your core competency.

Exploring "what if" scenarios isn't anywhere close to actually deciding to leave and then actually doing something about it. It is just good management and being prepared.

I think you only have a Magnificent 1 or 2. At most. We'll see if FSU does anything by 8/15/2023. And if any other school joins them.

[Essexfenwick]

Not hearing much from the “Ollies Bargain Outlet 7” these days.

[wgdsr]

Not hearing much from the “Ollies Bargain Outlet 7” these days.

by these days do u mean the last 2 hours?
thamel reporting they're vetting cal and stanford.

[wgdsr]

Hey Doc -- here's what one of your "Magnificent 7" ACC leavers is saying these days:

On August 2, 2023, University of North Carolina Athletic Director Bubba Cunningham reacted to the comments from President McCullough [of FSU] in an interview with 99.9 - The Fan - in Raleigh, North Carolina.

"I don't think it's good for our league for them to be out there barking like that,” stated Cunningham. "I'd rather see them be a good member of the league, support the league and if they have to make a decision, then so be it. Pay for the exit fee, wait for your grant of rights that you've given and then in 2036, when those rights return to you, do whatever you want.”

If the UNC President and BOT were really planning to leave anytime soon, do you think they'd be having their AD say stuff like this? Seems like UNC thinks the GOR is solid.

Or maybe the AD is spreading smoke screen disinformation to cover for the plot that UNC is hatching with the other Magnificents? Let me know your thoughts on that. Since conspiracy theories seem to be your core competency.

Exploring "what if" scenarios isn't anywhere close to actually deciding to leave and then actually doing something about it. It is just good management and being prepared.

I think you only have a Magnificent 1 or 2. At most. We'll see if FSU does anything by 8/15/2023. And if any other school joins them.

doc still has espn owning the acc's grant of rights, which might be the dumbest thing i've seen in this thread. and that's saying something.

[ggait]

Not hearing much from the “Ollies Bargain Outlet 7” these days.

by these days do u mean the last 2 hours?
thamel reporting they're vetting cal and stanford.

Might as well take OSU and WSU while your are at it. It makes as much/little sense as any of the other recent moves.

Maybe rename to the Great Atlantic & Pacific Coast Conference (unless there's a trademark issue). And then go ahead and pick up Gonzaga for hoops. ACC hoops isn't quite at the level it used to be.

[Essexfenwick]

Oh Noes!! The “Ollies Bargain Outlet 7” is angling to make their 40 million payout go down to 35 million. That’ll show everybody that the “Fredo Corleone conference of misfit toys” is smart.

The FCC conference is on the move.

[DocBarrister]

Doc, Doc, Doc, Doc -- Stop with the fantasy conspiracy theories. Sheesh.

Please show us the language/theory as to how the rights grants disappear if the ACC conference dissolves. I see nothing to that effect. Also, the GOR says this:

Each of the Member Institutions covenants and agrees that (x) it will not enter into any agreement that is inconsistent with the provisions of this Agreement, and (y) it will not take any action, or permit any action to be taken by others subject to its control, including licensees, or fail to take any action, that would affect the validity and enforcement of the Rights granted to the Conference under this Agreement.

So I think ESPN has a clear breach if a majority of the ACC schools collude to dissolve the conference. Which collusion would be done SOLELY for the purpose of breaching the GOR and the ESPN agreement. TLDR -- the ACC schools have zero ability on their own to do what you suggest. ZERO.

Sure, if ESPN wants to rip up its sweetheart agreement 13 years early (and if they are actually allowed to do that -- unproven, questionable), then all bets are off. But going that route would require an unworkable multi-party negotiation among ESPN, B10, SEC, the leaver schools and the left behind schools. Good luck with that one, buddy.

The idea that FSU would be able to keep and use its rights so long as it lands in another ESPN conference? Boy that's contractual crazy talk.

As we've been through 20 times before, the ACC leavers would never do any of this stuff unless they had first secured their landing spots in their new conferences. The B10 and SEC will not go anywhere near FSU or any of the other leavers so long as they are toxic with lingering legal issues. You don't burn down your current house until after you've bought a new house to live in. Duh.

Also, exactly why would ESPN want to tear up its current agreement with the SEC and start a big legal shirt show? Just so they can get access to FSU and Clemson games (which rights they already own on the cheap fyi)? Just so they can pay more for stuff they already own when those teams go to the SEC???? If you haven't noticed, Disney and ESPN are sucking wind these days -- plummeting revenues, plummeting stock price, layoffs, etc. Same goes for all the other media companies, including Comcast. So now would be the absolutely worst time ever for someone to try to get ESPN (whether still owned by Disney or others) to engage in this convoluted scheme that would result in them increase their costs related to something they already own.

Also, you only have 7 "potential" leavers. That is not enough to dissolve the conference. Who is number 8? And I'd bet that many of the current Mag 7 would back down from launching the nuke on this. Maybe the FSU folks want to go scorched earth -- vaya con dios amigo. But few/none of the very smart lawyers who are presidents, GCs or trustees of the other ACC schools are going to authorize starting a land war in Asia. Exploring potential exit scenarios is not even close to being an actual leaver.

NFW that Jim Ryan (former law professor) at UVA is going to torch his reputation and the reputation of his school (new tag line -- "a great and good university") by signing onto a scheme that would brand them as sleazy contract violators. The concept is absolutely preposterous. Besides, most of the ACC schools (UVA, UNC, Duke, BC, Syracuse etc.) generally suck at football. Always have and always will. They'd all be even worse off competitively in the B10. So long as they can continue to fund their hoops programs (cheap as compared to what football costs)f, there's really no incentive for them to go nuclear just so that they can get steamrolled by Michigan, OSU, PSU, etc.

Let's see if FSU actually gives its exit notice on 8/15/2023. I guess there's a tiny possibility of that. But who else would walk that plank with them?

One good thing though. You appear to have been convinced that all of your prior conspiracy theories (no choice of law!; sovereign immunity defense!; CRCA being over-ruled by SCOTUS!, etc.) were bull shirt.

But I do agree that the ACC GOR is not completely ironclad. If Putin launches the nukes and the world goes up in flames, then yeah -- the GOR won't be enforced.

Why would you think ESPN considers the current ACC agreement a “sweetheart deal?”

Right now, ESPN pays ACC schools over $400 million a year.

Ask yourself this, would ESPN, which has been seeking ways to cut costs, prefer to keep paying schools like Boston College and Wake Forest more than $30 million a year or would ESPN prefer to pay $120 million each year for just FSU and Clemson in the SEC? They get the top two ACC football programs, and save $300 million a year in payouts to the rest of the ACC. Do you really believe that ESPN likes paying hundreds of millions of dollars each year to the ACC’s “filler” schools?

The “rights” that FSU (and Clemson) gave to the ACC were specifically designated for fulfillment of the ACC agreement with ESPN. In other words, FSU and Clemson gave ESPN the rights to broadcast their home games. If both move to the SEC, ESPN still gets to broadcast their home games, because ESPN also owns the right to SEC games.

Now, would ESPN ever maneuver to steal a conference’s two most valuable teams for the SEC?

Yes. In fact, ESPN maneuvered Texas and Oklahoma to join the SEC, nearly destroying the Big 12.

https://trojanswire.usatoday.com/2021/0 ... o-the-sec/

So, ESPN maneuvering to “steal” FSU and Clemson for the SEC is not some fantasy scenario … ESPN has actually done something similar before. And the ACC GOR is no problem, because ESPN still gets to broadcast FSU and Clemson games, but as part of the SEC, not ACC.

I can imagine ESPN maneuvering FSU and Clemson to the SEC, and then using those two defections to cancel the rest of the deal with the ACC remnants. Their SEC package is boosted in value and they get to save $300 million in payments to the ACC leftovers.

Now, just how Machiavellian is ESPN? After nearly destroying the Big 12, the Big 12 bounced back, aggressively expanded, and then jumped the gun and signed an early new media contract … with Fox, but also ESPN.

So, unless you’re convinced that ESPN is determined to broadcast Boston College and Wake Forest sports, you might want to keep and eye open on the doings of ESPN.

DocBarrister

[wgdsr]

Doc, Doc, Doc, Doc -- Stop with the fantasy conspiracy theories. Sheesh.

Please show us the language/theory as to how the rights grants disappear if the ACC conference dissolves. I see nothing to that effect. Also, the GOR says this:

Each of the Member Institutions covenants and agrees that (x) it will not enter into any agreement that is inconsistent with the provisions of this Agreement, and (y) it will not take any action, or permit any action to be taken by others subject to its control, including licensees, or fail to take any action, that would affect the validity and enforcement of the Rights granted to the Conference under this Agreement.

So I think ESPN has a clear breach if a majority of the ACC schools collude to dissolve the conference. Which collusion would be done SOLELY for the purpose of breaching the GOR and the ESPN agreement. TLDR -- the ACC schools have zero ability on their own to do what you suggest. ZERO.

Sure, if ESPN wants to rip up its sweetheart agreement 13 years early (and if they are actually allowed to do that -- unproven, questionable), then all bets are off. But going that route would require an unworkable multi-party negotiation among ESPN, B10, SEC, the leaver schools and the left behind schools. Good luck with that one, buddy.

The idea that FSU would be able to keep and use its rights so long as it lands in another ESPN conference? Boy that's contractual crazy talk.

As we've been through 20 times before, the ACC leavers would never do any of this stuff unless they had first secured their landing spots in their new conferences. The B10 and SEC will not go anywhere near FSU or any of the other leavers so long as they are toxic with lingering legal issues. You don't burn down your current house until after you've bought a new house to live in. Duh.

Also, exactly why would ESPN want to tear up its current agreement with the SEC and start a big legal shirt show? Just so they can get access to FSU and Clemson games (which rights they already own on the cheap fyi)? Just so they can pay more for stuff they already own when those teams go to the SEC???? If you haven't noticed, Disney and ESPN are sucking wind these days -- plummeting revenues, plummeting stock price, layoffs, etc. Same goes for all the other media companies, including Comcast. So now would be the absolutely worst time ever for someone to try to get ESPN (whether still owned by Disney or others) to engage in this convoluted scheme that would result in them increase their costs related to something they already own.

Also, you only have 7 "potential" leavers. That is not enough to dissolve the conference. Who is number 8? And I'd bet that many of the current Mag 7 would back down from launching the nuke on this. Maybe the FSU folks want to go scorched earth -- vaya con dios amigo. But few/none of the very smart lawyers who are presidents, GCs or trustees of the other ACC schools are going to authorize starting a land war in Asia. Exploring potential exit scenarios is not even close to being an actual leaver.

NFW that Jim Ryan (former law professor) at UVA is going to torch his reputation and the reputation of his school (new tag line -- "a great and good university") by signing onto a scheme that would brand them as sleazy contract violators. The concept is absolutely preposterous. Besides, most of the ACC schools (UVA, UNC, Duke, BC, Syracuse etc.) generally suck at football. Always have and always will. They'd all be even worse off competitively in the B10. So long as they can continue to fund their hoops programs (cheap as compared to what football costs)f, there's really no incentive for them to go nuclear just so that they can get steamrolled by Michigan, OSU, PSU, etc.

Let's see if FSU actually gives its exit notice on 8/15/2023. I guess there's a tiny possibility of that. But who else would walk that plank with them?

One good thing though. You appear to have been convinced that all of your prior conspiracy theories (no choice of law!; sovereign immunity defense!; CRCA being over-ruled by SCOTUS!, etc.) were bull shirt.

But I do agree that the ACC GOR is not completely ironclad. If Putin launches the nukes and the world goes up in flames, then yeah -- the GOR won't be enforced.

Why would you think ESPN considers the current ACC agreement a “sweetheart deal?”

Right now, ESPN pays ACC schools over $400 million a year.

Ask yourself this, would ESPN, which has been seeking ways to cut costs, prefer to keep paying schools like Boston College and Wake Forest more than $30 million a year or would ESPN prefer to pay $120 million each year for just FSU and Clemson in the SEC? They get the top two ACC football programs, and save $300 million a year in payouts to the rest of the ACC. Do you really believe that ESPN likes paying hundreds of millions of dollars each year to the ACC’s “filler” schools?

The “rights” that FSU (and Clemson) gave to the ACC were specifically designated for fulfillment of the ACC agreement with ESPN. In other words, FSU and Clemson gave ESPN the rights to broadcast their home games. If both move to the SEC, ESPN still gets to broadcast their home games, because ESPN also owns the right to SEC games.

Now, would ESPN ever maneuver to steal a conference’s two most valuable teams for the SEC?

Yes. In fact, ESPN maneuvered Texas and Oklahoma to join the SEC, nearly destroying the Big 12.

https://trojanswire.usatoday.com/2021/0 ... o-the-sec/

So, ESPN maneuvering to “steal” FSU and Clemson for the SEC is not some fantasy scenario … ESPN has actually done something similar before. And the ACC GOR is no problem, because ESPN still gets to broadcast FSU and Clemson games, but as part of the SEC, not ACC.

I can imagine ESPN maneuvering FSU and Clemson to the SEC, and then using those two defections to cancel the rest of the deal with the ACC remnants. Their SEC package is boosted in value and they get to save $300 million in payments to the ACC leftovers.

Now, just how Machiavellian is ESPN? After nearly destroying the Big 12, the Big 12 bounced back, aggressively expanded, and then jumped the gun and signed an early new media contract … with Fox, but also ESPN.

So, unless you’re convinced that ESPN is determined to broadcast Boston College and Wake Forest sports, you might want to keep and eye open on the doings of ESPN.

DocBarrister

i'm dumber for having read this a 2nd time. espn cannot just take fsu and clem broadcasts elsewhere. fsu and clem granted them to the acc, not espn. are you on a bender?

[Essexfenwick]

Texas and Oklahoma aren’t moving until the iron clad Big 12 GOR expires in 2024. The ACC GOR lasts until 2036.

[Farfromgeneva]

Hey Doc -- here's what one of your "Magnificent 7" ACC leavers is saying these days:

On August 2, 2023, University of North Carolina Athletic Director Bubba Cunningham reacted to the comments from President McCullough [of FSU] in an interview with 99.9 - The Fan - in Raleigh, North Carolina.

"I don't think it's good for our league for them to be out there barking like that,” stated Cunningham. "I'd rather see them be a good member of the league, support the league and if they have to make a decision, then so be it. Pay for the exit fee, wait for your grant of rights that you've given and then in 2036, when those rights return to you, do whatever you want.”

If the UNC President and BOT were really planning to leave anytime soon, do you think they'd be having their AD say stuff like this? Seems like UNC thinks the GOR is solid.

Or maybe the AD is spreading smoke screen disinformation to cover for the plot that UNC is hatching with the other Magnificents? Let me know your thoughts on that. Since conspiracy theories seem to be your core competency.

Exploring "what if" scenarios isn't anywhere close to actually deciding to leave and then actually doing something about it. It is just good management and being prepared.

I think you only have a Magnificent 1 or 2. At most. We'll see if FSU does anything by 8/15/2023. And if any other school joins them.

To me UNC may be the most valuable asset left in the ACC today. Competitive enough in football on a regular basis and kind of is the preeminent program in the CLT market as opposed to Duke, Wake or Clemson. Clemson smaller market, FSU no better in football and pathetic market. Ga Tech looks good to guys in my profession (banker, looks good in a pitch deck but reality isn’t value add with respect to atlanta).

[ggait]

Why would you think ESPN considers the current ACC agreement a “sweetheart deal?”

Um...if the current contract was a good deal for the schools, they why all the complaining about it?

If it is a below market deal for the schools...that means it is a sweet deal for ESPN. Duh!

Of course at some point, it might make sense for ESPN to consider a renegotiation to preserve the long term value of the asset they already own. Maybe. And years from now.

Since ESPN and Disney are tanking financially and doing crazy lay-offs, gonna be pretty far down the CEO's to-do list to volunteer to pay more for what they already own. But if there is a re-negotiation, it will be with the ACC collectively.

ESPN has smart lawyers too. They know the GOR is solid. So solid that they would, OF COURSE!!!!!, insist on all the schools extending the GOR as a condition of a new deal. Which is EXACTLY what happened in 2016.

TLDR (again): FSU holding 2-7 off suit.

[Farfromgeneva]

Not hearing much from the “Ollies Bargain Outlet 7” these days.

by these days do u mean the last 2 hours?
thamel reporting they're vetting cal and stanford.

Spoke to someone who works in Stanford athletics recently. They need a solution that doesn’t leave them figuring out how to pay for work done in 2014…

[Farfromgeneva]

Not hearing much from the “Ollies Bargain Outlet 7” these days.

by these days do u mean the last 2 hours?
thamel reporting they're vetting cal and stanford.

Might as well take OSU and WSU while your are at it. It makes as much/little sense as any of the other recent moves.

Maybe rename to the Great Atlantic & Pacific Coast Conference (unless there's a trademark issue). And then go ahead and pick up Gonzaga for hoops. ACC hoops isn't quite at the level it used to be.

Cal, Stanford, ND, BYU and what can be done with the Big12. That’s the only play left long term.

[Essexfenwick]

Not hearing much from the “Ollies Bargain Outlet 7” these days.

by these days do u mean the last 2 hours?
thamel reporting they're vetting cal and stanford.

Spoke to someone who works in Stanford athletics recently. They need a solution that doesn’t leave them figuring out how to pay for work done in 2014…

Huh? They have a 36 billion endowment. Why have it if you never use it?