College hazing

[MVPiccoli]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

The Northwestern coach was giving the code red…..

[wgdsr]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

The Northwestern coach was giving the code red…..

good pull.

[Farfromgeneva]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

The Northwestern coach was giving the code red…..

There is no code red

[Typical Lax Dad]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

The Northwestern coach was giving the code red…..

There is no code red

You damn right there is!!

[xxxxxxx]

This type of hazing unfortunately goes on everywhere and the coaches have very little control over what 20-year-olds do in the basement of the lacrosse house. Personally, I have no problem with freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag. Where it crosses the line in forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse. I am also confident every coach talks about no hazing every year, with consequences.

[DMac]

This type of hazing unfortunately goes on everywhere and the coaches have very little control over what 20-year-olds do in the basement of the lacrosse house. Personally, I have no problem with freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag. Where it crosses the line in forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse. I am also confident every coach talks about no hazing every year, with consequences.

Completely agree, cleaning up, carrying balls, etc, no big deal. Trouble with the rest is there's always someone who has to get carried away and the rest will go along with it. Hazing is bullschidt, tough guys given a no retaliation situation to do really stupid and degrading stuff to classmates, teammates, brothers/sisters in uniform. Been on the receiving end, never dished any out, military or otherwise. Never felt like a cool thing to do to me. JMHO.

[MDlaxfan76]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

Whoa, "commonplace in every program"?...my high school and college programs had NO hazing, no special duties, much less embarrassments, of forced drinking, for first years on the team. Same for my son in high school and college.

Fraternity...yes. Mine was well out of bounds, in retrospect.

And I don't agree with the various commenters that coaches can't influence the potential for a hazing culture to persist or thrive, or not.

First, they can make darn clear that there will be no tolerance of such, clear consequences, and they can work directly and closely with the captain or captains in that regard...or not.

Second, they can make clear that there are no special duties for freshmen expected or tolerated. Indeed, the healthiest cultures have upperclassmen take on those duties and/or lead full team involvement....conversely, they, as coaches, can create those duties for freshmen, a green light for other such.

These choices can directly impact the culture such that it is either conducive to hazing..or rejects hazing.

Back to healthy culture, when freshmen are welcomed as full members of the team, they can be expected to pull their weight as team mates, empowered to perform at their best...this encourages faster progression to contributions to winning, not the opposite. They earn respect first by being chosen, second by their efforts on the field and weight room, and then in competition... how they handle fans, how they handle their school work, how they treat women, etc, etc......not their willingness to undergo embarrassments or drinking or...

Culture.

Coaches, IMO, should have as their very most important priority the health and wellbeing of the players, individually as well as collectively. No short term objective should ever get in the way of that priority. And in no way should that be thought of as sacrificing "winning". The program will attract, keep, develop... and bring to the moments of truth in competition...the best potential outcomes if the players trust the coaches and trust each other.

I have less of an issue "team-building" events that put all the players through stressful conditions together, as these can be positive IF they are about the teammates helping and encouraging each other. But a lot of this stuff is not well managed and smart players see through the nonsense of some ex-Marine yelling in their ear for a few hours...that stuff is pretty worthless and can even be detrimental...some coaches don't really know what the right objectives should be, they just know other programs are doing it...

[MVPiccoli]

This type of hazing unfortunately goes on everywhere and the coaches have very little control over what 20-year-olds do in the basement of the lacrosse house. Personally, I have no problem with freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag. Where it crosses the line in forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse. I am also confident every coach talks about no hazing every year, with consequences.

Completely agree, cleaning up, carrying balls, etc, no big deal. Trouble with the rest is there's always someone who has to get carried away and the rest will go along with it. Hazing is bullschidt, tough guys given a no retaliation situation to do really stupid and degrading stuff to classmates, teammates, brothers/sisters in uniform. Been on the receiving end, never dished any out, military or otherwise. Never felt like a cool thing to do to me. JMHO.

The line is so very grey. This is not limited to lacrosse. Or sports. Go to any fraternity/sorority. Go to any marching band. The concept of initiation is universal. If I were running a program, I might be inclined to formalize a set of activities to put guardrails and purpose behind what would happen anyway.

[MVPiccoli]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

Whoa, "commonplace in every program"?...my high school and college programs had NO hazing, no special duties, much less embarrassments, of forced drinking, for first years on the team. Same for my son in high school and college.

Fraternity...yes. Mine was well out of bounds, in retrospect.

And I don't agree with the various commenters that coaches can't influence the potential for a hazing culture to persist or thrive, or not.

First, they can make darn clear that there will be no tolerance of such, clear consequences, and they can work directly and closely with the captain or captains in that regard...or not.

Second, they can make clear that there are no special duties for freshmen expected or tolerated. Indeed, the healthiest cultures have upperclassmen take on those duties and/or lead full team involvement....conversely, they, as coaches, can create those duties for freshmen, a green light for other such.

These choices can directly impact the culture such that it is either conducive to hazing..or rejects hazing.

Back to healthy culture, when freshmen are welcomed as full members of the team, they can be expected to pull their weight as team mates, empowered to perform at their best...this encourages faster progression to contributions to winning, not the opposite. They earn respect first by being chosen, second by their efforts on the field and weight room, and then in competition... how they handle fans, how they handle their school work, how they treat women, etc, etc......not their willingness to undergo embarrassments or drinking or...

Culture.

Coaches, IMO, should have as their very most important priority the health and wellbeing of the players, individually as well as collectively. No short term objective should ever get in the way of that priority. And in no way should that be thought of as sacrificing "winning". The program will attract, keep, develop... and bring to the moments of truth in competition...the best potential outcomes if the players trust the coaches and trust each other.

I have less of an issue "team-building" events that put all the players through stressful conditions together, as these can be positive IF they are about the teammates helping and encouraging each other. But a lot of this stuff is not well managed and smart players see through the nonsense of some ex-Marine yelling in their ear for a few hours...that stuff is pretty worthless and can even be detrimental...some coaches don't really know what the right objectives should be, they just know other programs are doing it...

Being welcomed as full members, and having that initiation experience are not mutually exclusive. I played soccer, basketball and lacrosse in HS. Lax in college. In every team, the freshmen were responsible for the blocking and tackling before and after practice. Water jugs. Ball collection, etc. Would some of the upper classmen help out? Of course. But there was always an element of responsibility inherent. Do I think that was the "correct" way things should have been done? No. That's not what I wrote.

[MDlaxfan76]

This type of hazing unfortunately goes on everywhere and the coaches have very little control over what 20-year-olds do in the basement of the lacrosse house. Personally, I have no problem with freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag. Where it crosses the line in forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse. I am also confident every coach talks about no hazing every year, with consequences.

Completely agree, cleaning up, carrying balls, etc, no big deal. Trouble with the rest is there's always someone who has to get carried away and the rest will go along with it. Hazing is bullschidt, tough guys given a no retaliation situation to do really stupid and degrading stuff to classmates, teammates, brothers/sisters in uniform. Been on the receiving end, never dished any out, military or otherwise. Never felt like a cool thing to do to me. JMHO.

The line is so very grey. This is not limited to lacrosse. Or sports. Go to any fraternity/sorority. Go to any marching band. The concept of initiation is universal. If I were running a program, I might be inclined to formalize a set of activities to put guardrails and purpose behind what would happen anyway.

see my comments above re a sports team.

I see zero benefit of "initiation" beyond what the new guys are expected to do alongside the upperclassmen...the "initiation" is keeping up with the pace of play, the expectations in the weight room, the extra practices, film, and of course the real "initiation" is when they step on the field in competition in team colors.

I agree re grey line otherwise...so zero. Just keep up. Pitch in.

[MDlaxfan76]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

Whoa, "commonplace in every program"?...my high school and college programs had NO hazing, no special duties, much less embarrassments, of forced drinking, for first years on the team. Same for my son in high school and college.

Fraternity...yes. Mine was well out of bounds, in retrospect.

And I don't agree with the various commenters that coaches can't influence the potential for a hazing culture to persist or thrive, or not.

First, they can make darn clear that there will be no tolerance of such, clear consequences, and they can work directly and closely with the captain or captains in that regard...or not.

Second, they can make clear that there are no special duties for freshmen expected or tolerated. Indeed, the healthiest cultures have upperclassmen take on those duties and/or lead full team involvement....conversely, they, as coaches, can create those duties for freshmen, a green light for other such.

These choices can directly impact the culture such that it is either conducive to hazing..or rejects hazing.

Back to healthy culture, when freshmen are welcomed as full members of the team, they can be expected to pull their weight as team mates, empowered to perform at their best...this encourages faster progression to contributions to winning, not the opposite. They earn respect first by being chosen, second by their efforts on the field and weight room, and then in competition... how they handle fans, how they handle their school work, how they treat women, etc, etc......not their willingness to undergo embarrassments or drinking or...

Culture.

Coaches, IMO, should have as their very most important priority the health and wellbeing of the players, individually as well as collectively. No short term objective should ever get in the way of that priority. And in no way should that be thought of as sacrificing "winning". The program will attract, keep, develop... and bring to the moments of truth in competition...the best potential outcomes if the players trust the coaches and trust each other.

I have less of an issue "team-building" events that put all the players through stressful conditions together, as these can be positive IF they are about the teammates helping and encouraging each other. But a lot of this stuff is not well managed and smart players see through the nonsense of some ex-Marine yelling in their ear for a few hours...that stuff is pretty worthless and can even be detrimental...some coaches don't really know what the right objectives should be, they just know other programs are doing it...

Being welcomed as full members, and having that initiation experience are not mutually exclusive. I played soccer, basketball and lacrosse in HS. Lax in college. In every team, the freshmen were responsible for the blocking and tackling before and after practice. Water jugs. Ball collection, etc. Would some of the upper classmen help out? Of course. But there was always an element of responsibility inherent. Do I think that was the "correct" way things should have been done? No. That's not what I wrote.

yes, those activities are indeed benign...I'm just saying that it signals that special, adverse treatment is ok...what, just don't go too far? We obviously agree that beyond the benign is dangerous stuff.

Again, what has impressed me is when the "responsibilities' are flipped...it's the upper classmen, including the "stars" who shoulder it. Freshmen can be expected to pitch in to help, as they see the opportunity to do so and give a good impression. And culture is built...

I agree that the flipped is the exception as most coaches experienced what you describe themselves and never really thought about it as an opportunity to set a different tone.

[MVPiccoli]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

Whoa, "commonplace in every program"?...my high school and college programs had NO hazing, no special duties, much less embarrassments, of forced drinking, for first years on the team. Same for my son in high school and college.

Fraternity...yes. Mine was well out of bounds, in retrospect.

And I don't agree with the various commenters that coaches can't influence the potential for a hazing culture to persist or thrive, or not.

First, they can make darn clear that there will be no tolerance of such, clear consequences, and they can work directly and closely with the captain or captains in that regard...or not.

Second, they can make clear that there are no special duties for freshmen expected or tolerated. Indeed, the healthiest cultures have upperclassmen take on those duties and/or lead full team involvement....conversely, they, as coaches, can create those duties for freshmen, a green light for other such.

These choices can directly impact the culture such that it is either conducive to hazing..or rejects hazing.

Back to healthy culture, when freshmen are welcomed as full members of the team, they can be expected to pull their weight as team mates, empowered to perform at their best...this encourages faster progression to contributions to winning, not the opposite. They earn respect first by being chosen, second by their efforts on the field and weight room, and then in competition... how they handle fans, how they handle their school work, how they treat women, etc, etc......not their willingness to undergo embarrassments or drinking or...

Culture.

Coaches, IMO, should have as their very most important priority the health and wellbeing of the players, individually as well as collectively. No short term objective should ever get in the way of that priority. And in no way should that be thought of as sacrificing "winning". The program will attract, keep, develop... and bring to the moments of truth in competition...the best potential outcomes if the players trust the coaches and trust each other.

I have less of an issue "team-building" events that put all the players through stressful conditions together, as these can be positive IF they are about the teammates helping and encouraging each other. But a lot of this stuff is not well managed and smart players see through the nonsense of some ex-Marine yelling in their ear for a few hours...that stuff is pretty worthless and can even be detrimental...some coaches don't really know what the right objectives should be, they just know other programs are doing it...

Being welcomed as full members, and having that initiation experience are not mutually exclusive. I played soccer, basketball and lacrosse in HS. Lax in college. In every team, the freshmen were responsible for the blocking and tackling before and after practice. Water jugs. Ball collection, etc. Would some of the upper classmen help out? Of course. But there was always an element of responsibility inherent. Do I think that was the "correct" way things should have been done? No. That's not what I wrote.

yes, those activities are indeed benign...I'm just saying that it signals that special, adverse treatment is ok...what, just don't go too far? We obviously agree that beyond the benign is dangerous stuff.

Again, what has impressed me is when the "responsibilities' are flipped...it's the upper classmen, including the "stars" who shoulder it. Freshmen can be expected to pitch in to help, as they see the opportunity to do so and give a good impression. And culture is built...

I think that's ideal and I agree.

[MVPiccoli]

Taking it to the feeling out experience in recruiting, man, if one of my kids ends up in a situation where they are looking to play college ball, I would 100% observe a practice with that in mind. Can you identify the classes of players? Are they treated differently? Have your recruit ask during their trip about related stuff to see what that culture is like.

[jersey shore lax]

This type of hazing unfortunately goes on everywhere and the coaches have very little control over what 20-year-olds do in the basement of the lacrosse house. Personally, I have no problem with freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag. Where it crosses the line in forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse. I am also confident every coach talks about no hazing every year, with consequences.

100% agree
freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag ='s acceptable rights of passage
forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse ='s criminal abuse

[MDlaxfan76]

This type of hazing unfortunately goes on everywhere and the coaches have very little control over what 20-year-olds do in the basement of the lacrosse house. Personally, I have no problem with freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag. Where it crosses the line in forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse. I am also confident every coach talks about no hazing every year, with consequences.

100% agree
freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag ='s acceptable rights of passage
forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse ='s criminal abuse

I think we all agree on that differentiation.
The question is what responsibility coaches have to set a culture and how to do it, given they can't police everything away from practice etc themselves.

see above re the "rights of passage" in that context.

[MDlaxfan76]

My point is simply that I think coaches have multiple ways they can influence the culture of the team and that they should be proactively looking for those opportunities.

My hope is that some coach, at whatever level, reads this discussion and starts looking for those opportunities, rather than passively or defensively thinking they shouldn't be responsible 'outside of their control'.

Be creative: Maybe have a daily or weekly rotation of two seniors and two freshman who do the schlepping, making sure to include the stars, not just the scrubs, maybe the two juniors and two sophomores for each post bus ride clean up...

Whatever the routine, do it consciously... not "that's just the way it's always been done"...

Culture matters, both to prevent bad things, but also importantly, to foster trust, a desire to be the best for each other.

[Ezra White]

...

Again, what has impressed me is when the "responsibilities' are flipped...it's the upper classmen, including the "stars" who shoulder it. Freshmen can be expected to pitch in to help, as they see the opportunity to do so and give a good impression. And culture is built...

I think that's ideal and I agree.

+1

[Farfromgeneva]

Every coach at every level of lacrosse is vulnerable to a hazing incident and fallout. It was and is commonplace in every program. Period. How in the world any staff, let alone a staff of 2-4, would be able to physically monitor the activities of 40-50 student athletes to prevent that from happening is beyond me. Looking back at my own experience (and I just had this conversation yesterday with a fellow alum over beers), in the moment, it felt like I was a part of something; in retrospect, it was incredibly stupid. But I can say that about 100 other decisions I made.

The Northwestern coach was giving the code red…..

There is no code red

You damn right there is!!

Apparently at Northwestern it’s more like a code rainbow.

[Farfromgeneva]

This type of hazing unfortunately goes on everywhere and the coaches have very little control over what 20-year-olds do in the basement of the lacrosse house. Personally, I have no problem with freshmen cleaning up after a party or carrying the ball bag. Where it crosses the line in forced alcohol consumption and dangerous activities like blindfolding confinement and physical abuse. I am also confident every coach talks about no hazing every year, with consequences.

Putting your a no liability sign, so to speak, doesn’t remove the liability or accountability though. The job descriptions will literally have components relating to the health and well being of the team members. It is in fact the HCs responsibility regardless of control. No one has complete control over everything their responsible for in their jobs.