Is Lacrosse an "Aristocrat Sport?"

[Typical Lax Dad]

$100K in West Genny will feel a whole lot smaller if you take that and move to LI.

So, comparisons are hard.

What % of folks in Syracuse area are making individually north of $100K? I know it was incredibly low 15-20yrs ago. And housing got relatively stupid in upstate NY as well.

I have seen a lot of players from Skaneateles….is that a working class town? I don’t know upstate that well but given how often I see the name associated with lacrosse, my guess is that it is a nice town.

That’s one of the nicer areas. Nice Lake as well. Was last on it 3yrs ago.

Turns out a lot of lacrosse players….. Bronxville may turn out more Lacrosse players per capita than any community in the country….the only resemblance to the Bronx is the name…..maybe lacrosse is a middle class sport but a disproportionate number of players that make it to a college roster are from affluent communities. I am not complaining. Just pointing out a fact…..Not that all of the players that do well are from wealthy families.

I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this thread yet (I apologize if it has), but the growth of the importance of summer leagues and travel teams also reduces the opportunities for kids who aren't at least from upper middle income families.

It's indeed been mentioned, though I agree that it's importance as a factor should be emphasized.

In the "old days", playing for your high school rarely meant coming out of pocket, and playing for your town rec program was cheap, unpaid, volunteer coaches. And that extended into high school, in my area, the old Hero's league...cheap, basically the cost of the tee shirt, maybe a couple dollars more...affordable from your own summer job. Couple of evenings a week of play. Equipment was really the only significant factor.

And there was almost no travel. Of course, that was in hot bed areas...no need for a lot of travel.

But as the sport grew, some folks realized there were dollars to be made by upping the ante...gotta make that all-star team, gotta get on the better club team, gotta travel, gotta get extra training, gotta play fall and winter some too...everybody making a buck.

It’s predatory….but the “victims” are generally from affluent communities. I see it almost everyday right down the street. I will never forget some Jabroni that played D3 lacrosse gushing over it…. Basically said “X-town & Y-town moms with husbands working in NYC all day will pay well for private training”….he probably should have expanded his offerings….. but he was a meatball Jabroni….

[Farfromgeneva]

$100K in West Genny will feel a whole lot smaller if you take that and move to LI.

So, comparisons are hard.

What % of folks in Syracuse area are making individually north of $100K? I know it was incredibly low 15-20yrs ago. And housing got relatively stupid in upstate NY as well.

I have seen a lot of players from Skaneateles….is that a working class town? I don’t know upstate that well but given how often I see the name associated with lacrosse, my guess is that it is a nice town.

That’s one of the nicer areas. Nice Lake as well. Was last on it 3yrs ago.

Turns out a lot of lacrosse players….. Bronxville may turn out more Lacrosse players per capita than any community in the country….the only resemblance to the Bronx is the name…..maybe lacrosse is a middle class sport but a disproportionate number of players that make it to a college roster are from affluent communities. I am not complaining. Just pointing out a fact…..Not that all of the players that do well are from wealthy families.

I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this thread yet (I apologize if it has), but the growth of the importance of summer leagues and travel teams also reduces the opportunities for kids who aren't at least from upper middle income families.

It's indeed been mentioned, though I agree that it's importance as a factor should be emphasized.

In the "old days", playing for your high school rarely meant coming out of pocket, and playing for your town rec program was cheap, unpaid, volunteer coaches. And that extended into high school, in my area, the old Hero's league...cheap, basically the cost of the tee shirt, maybe a couple dollars more...affordable from your own summer job. Couple of evenings a week of play. Equipment was really the only significant factor.

And there was almost no travel. Of course, that was in hot bed areas...no need for a lot of travel.

But as the sport grew, some folks realized there were dollars to be made by upping the ante...gotta make that all-star team, gotta get on the better club team, gotta travel, gotta get extra training, gotta play fall and winter some too...everybody making a buck.

It’s predatory….but the “victims” are generally from affluent communities. I see it almost everyday right down the street. I will never forget some Jabroni that played D3 lacrosse gushing over it…. Basically said “X-town & Y-town moms with husbands working in NYC all day will pay well for private training”….he probably should have expanded his offerings….. but he was a meatball Jabroni….

Could he smelllll what the rock was cookin?

https://youtu.be/f0SQTQ-pkwY

[Typical Lax Dad]

$100K in West Genny will feel a whole lot smaller if you take that and move to LI.

So, comparisons are hard.

What % of folks in Syracuse area are making individually north of $100K? I know it was incredibly low 15-20yrs ago. And housing got relatively stupid in upstate NY as well.

I have seen a lot of players from Skaneateles….is that a working class town? I don’t know upstate that well but given how often I see the name associated with lacrosse, my guess is that it is a nice town.

That’s one of the nicer areas. Nice Lake as well. Was last on it 3yrs ago.

Turns out a lot of lacrosse players….. Bronxville may turn out more Lacrosse players per capita than any community in the country….the only resemblance to the Bronx is the name…..maybe lacrosse is a middle class sport but a disproportionate number of players that make it to a college roster are from affluent communities. I am not complaining. Just pointing out a fact…..Not that all of the players that do well are from wealthy families.

I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this thread yet (I apologize if it has), but the growth of the importance of summer leagues and travel teams also reduces the opportunities for kids who aren't at least from upper middle income families.

It's indeed been mentioned, though I agree that it's importance as a factor should be emphasized.

In the "old days", playing for your high school rarely meant coming out of pocket, and playing for your town rec program was cheap, unpaid, volunteer coaches. And that extended into high school, in my area, the old Hero's league...cheap, basically the cost of the tee shirt, maybe a couple dollars more...affordable from your own summer job. Couple of evenings a week of play. Equipment was really the only significant factor.

And there was almost no travel. Of course, that was in hot bed areas...no need for a lot of travel.

But as the sport grew, some folks realized there were dollars to be made by upping the ante...gotta make that all-star team, gotta get on the better club team, gotta travel, gotta get extra training, gotta play fall and winter some too...everybody making a buck.

It’s predatory….but the “victims” are generally from affluent communities. I see it almost everyday right down the street. I will never forget some Jabroni that played D3 lacrosse gushing over it…. Basically said “X-town & Y-town moms with husbands working in NYC all day will pay well for private training”….he probably should have expanded his offerings….. but he was a meatball Jabroni….

Could he smelllll what the rock was cookin?

https://youtu.be/f0SQTQ-pkwY

[MDlaxfan76]

$100K in West Genny will feel a whole lot smaller if you take that and move to LI.

So, comparisons are hard.

What % of folks in Syracuse area are making individually north of $100K? I know it was incredibly low 15-20yrs ago. And housing got relatively stupid in upstate NY as well.

I have seen a lot of players from Skaneateles….is that a working class town? I don’t know upstate that well but given how often I see the name associated with lacrosse, my guess is that it is a nice town.

That’s one of the nicer areas. Nice Lake as well. Was last on it 3yrs ago.

Turns out a lot of lacrosse players….. Bronxville may turn out more Lacrosse players per capita than any community in the country….the only resemblance to the Bronx is the name…..maybe lacrosse is a middle class sport but a disproportionate number of players that make it to a college roster are from affluent communities. I am not complaining. Just pointing out a fact…..Not that all of the players that do well are from wealthy families.

I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this thread yet (I apologize if it has), but the growth of the importance of summer leagues and travel teams also reduces the opportunities for kids who aren't at least from upper middle income families.

It's indeed been mentioned, though I agree that it's importance as a factor should be emphasized.

In the "old days", playing for your high school rarely meant coming out of pocket, and playing for your town rec program was cheap, unpaid, volunteer coaches. And that extended into high school, in my area, the old Hero's league...cheap, basically the cost of the tee shirt, maybe a couple dollars more...affordable from your own summer job. Couple of evenings a week of play. Equipment was really the only significant factor.

And there was almost no travel. Of course, that was in hot bed areas...no need for a lot of travel.

But as the sport grew, some folks realized there were dollars to be made by upping the ante...gotta make that all-star team, gotta get on the better club team, gotta travel, gotta get extra training, gotta play fall and winter some too...everybody making a buck.

It’s predatory….but the “victims” are generally from affluent communities. I see it almost everyday right down the street. I will never forget some Jabroni that played D3 lacrosse gushing over it…. Basically said “X-town & Y-town moms with husbands working in NYC all day will pay well for private training”….he probably should have expanded his offerings….. but he was a meatball Jabroni….

or, the "victims" are those squeezed out, right?

This who might have had the potential, but never really got the chance to develop and show it...

I think it's still possible to scrabble one's way to access to and up the ladder, but no doubt much harder and one needs to find some help along the way, second hand equipment, a coach who doesn't charge the kid with the single parent who can't afford it, the teammate parent who covers the kid's tournament costs, hotel bill...

[Typical Lax Dad]

$100K in West Genny will feel a whole lot smaller if you take that and move to LI.

So, comparisons are hard.

What % of folks in Syracuse area are making individually north of $100K? I know it was incredibly low 15-20yrs ago. And housing got relatively stupid in upstate NY as well.

I have seen a lot of players from Skaneateles….is that a working class town? I don’t know upstate that well but given how often I see the name associated with lacrosse, my guess is that it is a nice town.

That’s one of the nicer areas. Nice Lake as well. Was last on it 3yrs ago.

Turns out a lot of lacrosse players….. Bronxville may turn out more Lacrosse players per capita than any community in the country….the only resemblance to the Bronx is the name…..maybe lacrosse is a middle class sport but a disproportionate number of players that make it to a college roster are from affluent communities. I am not complaining. Just pointing out a fact…..Not that all of the players that do well are from wealthy families.

I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this thread yet (I apologize if it has), but the growth of the importance of summer leagues and travel teams also reduces the opportunities for kids who aren't at least from upper middle income families.

It's indeed been mentioned, though I agree that it's importance as a factor should be emphasized.

In the "old days", playing for your high school rarely meant coming out of pocket, and playing for your town rec program was cheap, unpaid, volunteer coaches. And that extended into high school, in my area, the old Hero's league...cheap, basically the cost of the tee shirt, maybe a couple dollars more...affordable from your own summer job. Couple of evenings a week of play. Equipment was really the only significant factor.

And there was almost no travel. Of course, that was in hot bed areas...no need for a lot of travel.

But as the sport grew, some folks realized there were dollars to be made by upping the ante...gotta make that all-star team, gotta get on the better club team, gotta travel, gotta get extra training, gotta play fall and winter some too...everybody making a buck.

It’s predatory….but the “victims” are generally from affluent communities. I see it almost everyday right down the street. I will never forget some Jabroni that played D3 lacrosse gushing over it…. Basically said “X-town & Y-town moms with husbands working in NYC all day will pay well for private training”….he probably should have expanded his offerings….. but he was a meatball Jabroni….

or, the "victims" are those squeezed out, right?

This who might have had the potential, but never really got the chance to develop and show it...

I think it's still possible to scrabble one's way to access to and up the ladder, but no doubt much harder and one needs to find some help along the way, second hand equipment, a coach who doesn't charge the kid with the single parent who can't afford it, the teammate parent who covers the kid's tournament costs, hotel bill...

I should have used the word “prey” instead. You are correct.

[Farfromgeneva]

$100K in West Genny will feel a whole lot smaller if you take that and move to LI.

So, comparisons are hard.

What % of folks in Syracuse area are making individually north of $100K? I know it was incredibly low 15-20yrs ago. And housing got relatively stupid in upstate NY as well.

I have seen a lot of players from Skaneateles….is that a working class town? I don’t know upstate that well but given how often I see the name associated with lacrosse, my guess is that it is a nice town.

That’s one of the nicer areas. Nice Lake as well. Was last on it 3yrs ago.

Turns out a lot of lacrosse players….. Bronxville may turn out more Lacrosse players per capita than any community in the country….the only resemblance to the Bronx is the name…..maybe lacrosse is a middle class sport but a disproportionate number of players that make it to a college roster are from affluent communities. I am not complaining. Just pointing out a fact…..Not that all of the players that do well are from wealthy families.

I'm surprised it hasn't come up in this thread yet (I apologize if it has), but the growth of the importance of summer leagues and travel teams also reduces the opportunities for kids who aren't at least from upper middle income families.

It's indeed been mentioned, though I agree that it's importance as a factor should be emphasized.

In the "old days", playing for your high school rarely meant coming out of pocket, and playing for your town rec program was cheap, unpaid, volunteer coaches. And that extended into high school, in my area, the old Hero's league...cheap, basically the cost of the tee shirt, maybe a couple dollars more...affordable from your own summer job. Couple of evenings a week of play. Equipment was really the only significant factor.

And there was almost no travel. Of course, that was in hot bed areas...no need for a lot of travel.

But as the sport grew, some folks realized there were dollars to be made by upping the ante...gotta make that all-star team, gotta get on the better club team, gotta travel, gotta get extra training, gotta play fall and winter some too...everybody making a buck.

It’s predatory….but the “victims” are generally from affluent communities. I see it almost everyday right down the street. I will never forget some Jabroni that played D3 lacrosse gushing over it…. Basically said “X-town & Y-town moms with husbands working in NYC all day will pay well for private training”….he probably should have expanded his offerings….. but he was a meatball Jabroni….

or, the "victims" are those squeezed out, right?

This who might have had the potential, but never really got the chance to develop and show it...

I think it's still possible to scrabble one's way to access to and up the ladder, but no doubt much harder and one needs to find some help along the way, second hand equipment, a coach who doesn't charge the kid with the single parent who can't afford it, the teammate parent who covers the kid's tournament costs, hotel bill...

I should have used the word “prey” instead. You are correct.

Shark food

[Brooklyn]

Is lacrosse "an aristocrat sport?"

Fascinating issue for a forum discussion.


Just recently I watched the Henley Regatta on you tube. Rowing is certainly viewed as an elitist sport by many whether it be in the UK, Continental Europe, or among East Coast Yankees. Yet, when you read The Boys In the Boat (DJ Brown) you see that the rowers back then were from poor or middle class backgrounds.

In the UK and elsewhere cricket is viewed an elitist sport. But in India, Pakistan, and the West Indies it is viewed as the poor man's and working man's sport.

Impoverished Pakistani Hashim Khan was a barefooted ball boy at an elite British business club. One day he picked up a broken squash racquet and proceeded to defeat every elite British player in sight. Though untrained he eventually became world champ as did several of his relatives whom he trained. To this day the sport once thought to be elitist is viewed as the poor man's sport in the Indian subcontinent.

Gymnastics? We've all seen the story of the highly gifted Suni Lee (South St Paul High School) who won a Gold Medal during the Olympics. Her background is very modest. Sadly her father never fully recovered from a terrible injury he got at work though he always inspired her to do her best. I understand that over the years many girls from poor backgrounds were among the best who performed in countries that comprised the old Soviet bloc.

Is lacrosse aristocratic? Well, it certainly isn't so in the res. Some of my classmates on the lax squad at CCNY way back in 1970s were from very modest backgrounds. A dude I know from my neighborhood and who works as a youth sports attendant came from a very modest background as well. He learned to play while in college at North Dakota and had a blast doing so. Many of his teammates were farm boys who never saw the inside of a big city.

Some of these sports may be viewed as aristocratic or elitist. But those with modest backgrounds can and often excel in them because they are so athletically gifted. I'd say that only those sports which are unaffordable should be viewed that way.

Aside from dressage, horse jumping, eventing, sailing, competition aerobatics, and fox hunting I can't honestly think of a sport that is aristocratic. To me, lax just isn't one of them.

[OCanada]

Exiting the Mohawk Res it was exciting to have stones thrown at the bus

[Typical Lax Dad]

Exiting the Mohawk Res it was exciting to have stones thrown at the bus

You sure you weren’t existing Columbus Marion Franklin High School!! I rode all the home (1.5 hours) on our team bus with my windows broken out and glass in my seat. It was cold too!!

[MVPiccoli]

I only really know SE PA ball well enough to have an opinion. Public school kids in these parts, of all means, play. You ask for a stick for your birthday or Christmas. You steal a couple balls. You go use your school's wall. You buy equipment from PlayItAgain, or now, something like SidelineSwap. You make garbage cans defenders to practice dodges. Is there another level of coaching available for those with the desire and parental wallet? Absolutely. Is there a group of ritzy private schools that have great teams? Again, yes. But that didn't stop kids like me in the late 90's. There's still plenty of off season leagues to join on the cheap; and, ways to develop with youtube, etc., that didn't even exist back then. I played higher level DIII. I couldn't afford cleats until the Christmas before my freshman season, and I saw plenty of kids worse off than me play D1.

[MDlaxfan76]

We were earlier discussing the potential pressures on sports in highly selective college admissions:

I disagree with the conclusions and some of the logic of this former tennis and squash player, but here they come...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/09/opinions ... index.html

[mdk01]

We were earlier discussing the potential pressures on sports in highly selective college admissions:

I disagree with the conclusions and some of the logic of this former tennis and squash player, but here they come...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/09/opinions ... index.html

I think he is ignoring that neither "athlete" and "non-athlete" are protected classes under the Constitution and 14th amendment. And why would you look at specific sports with respect to athletes as opposed to athletes in general as a class? And the racial makeup certainly is not one of white domination. With respect to donors, it could well be a different story.

[MDlaxfan76]

We were earlier discussing the potential pressures on sports in highly selective college admissions:

I disagree with the conclusions and some of the logic of this former tennis and squash player, but here they come...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/09/opinions ... index.html

I think he is ignoring that neither "athlete" and "non-athlete" are protected classes under the Constitution and 14th amendment. And why would you look at specific sports with respect to athletes as opposed to athletes in general as a class? And the racial makeup certainly is not one of white domination. With respect to donors, it could well be a different story.

I obviously agree with your first point, though I don't think the pressure will be based from the courts.

Yes, I do think the pressure will be across sports, albeit those which tend to have fewer minorities will likely face the chopping block sooner than others.

But the fundamental argument is that sports are no different from, no more valuable than, any other passion that a student may bring to campus and yet it's the only one that has a 'quota system' that guarantees slots for them. And it's the easiest to identify a gap between the academic #'s based on that quota. No so easy to say that musicians have lower test scores, I guess, than those who spend all their time and energy studying...though that's likely also a reality, just a smaller gap. Being 'world class' at music takes a huge # of hours, as well as talent.

My issue with the premise is that raw academic scores alone are the best predictor of life success and likely impact in the world, and, moreover, that the highest scores should always be preferred over those which are lower. I reject that premise.

And, btw, looking solely at prior academic scores, there's a huge boost is for males over females...and gender actually is a protected class...uhh ohh...

[OCanada]

Exiting the Mohawk Res it was exciting to have stones thrown at the bus

You sure you weren’t existing Columbus Marion Franklin High School!! I rode all the home (1.5 hours) on our team bus with my windows broken out and glass in my seat. It was cold too!!

I am pretty sure bit i will revisit my memory banks. It was a nice spring day though. I was frankly in shock to see a guy my age winding up to throw.

[pcowlax]

We were earlier discussing the potential pressures on sports in highly selective college admissions:

I disagree with the conclusions and some of the logic of this former tennis and squash player, but here they come...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/09/opinions ... index.html

I think he is ignoring that neither "athlete" and "non-athlete" are protected classes under the Constitution and 14th amendment. And why would you look at specific sports with respect to athletes as opposed to athletes in general as a class? And the racial makeup certainly is not one of white domination. With respect to donors, it could well be a different story.

I obviously agree with your first point, though I don't think the pressure will be based from the courts.

Yes, I do think the pressure will be across sports, albeit those which tend to have fewer minorities will likely face the chopping block sooner than others.

But the fundamental argument is that sports are no different from, no more valuable than, any other passion that a student may bring to campus and yet it's the only one that has a 'quota system' that guarantees slots for them. And it's the easiest to identify a gap between the academic #'s based on that quota. No so easy to say that musicians have lower test scores, I guess, than those who spend all their time and energy studying...though that's likely also a reality, just a smaller gap. Being 'world class' at music takes a huge # of hours, as well as talent.

My issue with the premise is that raw academic scores alone are the best predictor of life success and likely impact in the world, and, moreover, that the highest scores should always be preferred over those which are lower. I reject that premise.

And, btw, looking solely at prior academic scores, there's a huge boost is for males over females...and gender actually is a protected class...uhh ohh...

What is that referring too? Women entering college significantly outnumber men. If men are receiving some kind of boost, it sure isn't evident in admission numbers. mdk01 is absolutely right regarding the unique aspect of "affirmative action". Discriminating based on race is explicitly and clearly against the law and violates the Constitution and thus once the courts took this up there was no way AA, which, whatever you think of its merits, is literally a formal, institution process of discriminating based on race, was going to stand. It is not against the law to favor legacies over non-legacies nor to lower academic standards for athletes. These practices may be unseemly, "unfair" and unpopular but legally, striking down AA has no bearing on them. The court of public opinion is something else. As others have said, for most elite universities, the legacy system is not nearly what it used to be. Not to offend anyone but there is lots of talk about how things were in the 70s. That is as far in the past as the 20s were in the 70s. Threading the needle of removing academic tips for only some sports will be a challenge for schools and open up further lawsuits but, if there is to be a move to reduce athletic admissions, lax is certainly near the front of the chopping line given its demographics and relatively large rosters. I certainly agree with MDlax that a college made up solely of students admitted based only on grades and scores is not one I would want to attend.

[molo]

Having spent more than 40 years in public education, I would submit that women are underrepresented in college and that makes must be getting a break to keep their numbers as high as they are. While there are certainly some excellent make students, females as s group outshine them in elementary, middle, and high school. The more you rely on grades and scores, the higher percentage of females you will admit.

[Farfromgeneva]

Having spent more than 40 years in public education, I would submit that women are underrepresented in college and that makes must be getting a break to keep their numbers as high as they are. While there are certainly some excellent make students, females as s group outshine them in elementary, middle, and high school. The more you rely on grades and scores, the higher percentage of females you will admit.

Need to tell that to my daughter she’s not quite on pace w her older brother yet but hit Covid earlier in grade school (basically half a year of kindergarten then spring five weeks of 2nd and fill their grade in school, her brother had an extra year in school now which I think is massive at their ages heading into rising 4th & 5th grades but 22mo apart in age)

[mdk01]

We were earlier discussing the potential pressures on sports in highly selective college admissions:

I disagree with the conclusions and some of the logic of this former tennis and squash player, but here they come...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/09/opinions ... index.html

I think he is ignoring that neither "athlete" and "non-athlete" are protected classes under the Constitution and 14th amendment. And why would you look at specific sports with respect to athletes as opposed to athletes in general as a class? And the racial makeup certainly is not one of white domination. With respect to donors, it could well be a different story.

I obviously agree with your first point, though I don't think the pressure will be based from the courts.

Yes, I do think the pressure will be across sports, albeit those which tend to have fewer minorities will likely face the chopping block sooner than others.

But the fundamental argument is that sports are no different from, no more valuable than, any other passion that a student may bring to campus and yet it's the only one that has a 'quota system' that guarantees slots for them. And it's the easiest to identify a gap between the academic #'s based on that quota. No so easy to say that musicians have lower test scores, I guess, than those who spend all their time and energy studying...though that's likely also a reality, just a smaller gap. Being 'world class' at music takes a huge # of hours, as well as talent.

My issue with the premise is that raw academic scores alone are the best predictor of life success and likely impact in the world, and, moreover, that the highest scores should always be preferred over those which are lower. I reject that premise.

And, btw, looking solely at prior academic scores, there's a huge boost is for males over females...and gender actually is a protected class...uhh ohh...

Your last sentence raises an interesting question. I think Title IX covers the issues of gender in sports participation. But the question that came to mind: Do female athletes get a break on test scores to get admitted? I would assume so.

[mdk01]

Having spent more than 40 years in public education, I would submit that women are underrepresented in college and that makes must be getting a break to keep their numbers as high as they are. While there are certainly some excellent make students, females as s group outshine them in elementary, middle, and high school. The more you rely on grades and scores, the higher percentage of females you will admit.

Of course the question then comes up "Why?"

[Typical Lax Dad]

Exiting the Mohawk Res it was exciting to have stones thrown at the bus

You sure you weren’t visiting Columbus Marion Franklin High School!! I rode all the home (1.5 hours) on our team bus with my windows broken out and glass in my seat. It was cold too!!

I am pretty sure bit i will revisit my memory banks. It was a nice spring day though. I was frankly in shock to see a guy my age winding up to throw.

It was mostly high school and recently graduated students…..I threw my share of rocks in the 5th and 6th grade when our 8th grade football team lost to a rival school. Never a big rock but just large enough to get some distance on it but nothing big enough to break a window….. we may have lost the game but we weren’t going to lose the fight! I was on the other end of it in high school…..out of town game. Pretty sure one of the guys throwing rocks ended up being one of my best friends in college!