Is Lacrosse an "Aristocrat Sport?"

[coda]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

aristocratic sport and country club sport are pretty much synonyms. I honestly do not know the socio-economic breakdown of participation in lacrosse across those states, I would bet neither does the author. That is kind of the point. The author and you are making a massive assumptions. They are 1509 registered lacrosse teams in Canada. While the highest level of lacrosse is found in private schools in NY, I would bet there are more teams in NY playing in middle class areas than wealthy. This is kind of a survivor bias situation. We are all aware of the successful programs, but there are tons of teams that dont make the polls or win state championships that people are not accounting for in this discussion. This should be about participation, not success.

[NNELax]

I would think barrier to entry is experienced far more in sports like rowing and sailing??....fencing and squash also come to mind...but there have been strides to make squash more inclusive...

[ohmilax34]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

He used the term "middle class" a few posts ago, which I bolded and underlined. These conversations might be aided by definitions of these things, or examples.

Interestingly I think the decline in population and economic issues with CNY/WNY correlate to the general perceived decline of HS lacrosse in those areas. Cue someone pointing out a Victor or J-D/BVille, but section 4 is basically dead compared with the Elmira/Corning region 20-30yrs ago. Same with the browsers Syracuse and Roch areas. I see some green shoots in the Buffalo region economically but otherwise there’s a correlation there that’s fairly obvious to folks who know upstate NY beyond Middletown.

Agreed. I'm wondering if players from Syracuse are not staying in CNY or other upstate areas, because of a lack of economic opportunities, and instead moving to NYC, Boston, etc. This in turn diminishes the lacrosse culture in upstate since the families for whom lacrosse is important are not staying there.

[Typical Lax Dad]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

aristocratic sport and country club sport are pretty much synonyms. I honestly do not know the socio-economic breakdown of participation in lacrosse across those states, I would bet neither does the author. That is kind of the point. The author and you are making a massive assumptions. They are 1509 registered lacrosse teams in Canada. While the highest level of lacrosse is found in private schools in NY, I would bet there are more teams in NY playing in middle class areas than wealthy. This is kind of a survivor bias situation. We are all aware of the successful programs, but there are tons of teams that dont make the polls or win state championships that people are not accounting for in this discussion.

I will leave it with lacrosse participation being primarily amongst upper middle class and above families. I agree Aristocratic isn’t the right word choice.

[coda]

I would total agree with middle class sport, but that is a very wide classification. My issue is with the term aristocratic. It is a is mischaracterization and was only used to inflame.

[Typical Lax Dad]

I would total agree with middle class sport, but that is a very wide classification. My issue is with the term aristocratic. It is a is mischaracterization and was only used to inflame.

Don’t disagree. I was thinking affluent but it’s not the same thing as aristocrats. Not sure there are enough “aristocrats” to fill the sport. I stick by upper middle class which is designated as $100k in income and above. Not sure how many families are closer to the$65k which is the designation for middle class.

[MDlaxfan76]

I would total agree with middle class sport, but that is a very wide classification. My issue is with the term aristocratic. It is a is mischaracterization and was only used to inflame.

Agreed.

Summers is an old fa-t and undoubtedly has an impression of only hyper wealthy prep schools playing the sport, which would have been true in the Philadelphia Mainline and surrounding Philly region of his early '70's school days attending wealthy public Harriton High, son of two economics professors at Penn. And that's who likely were on MIT's team when he was there.

Harriton plays lax now, at a base cost of $200, plus a big $ for a spring trip to Florida...but I doubt they played lax in his day. Maybe they did...but he didn't... Same league as Conestoga...

But that was never true in the main hotbed areas of Baltimore, LI, and Upstate...but true elsewhere. In the hotbeds, lacrosse was played at the then more 'white' ethnic public schools, e.g. in Baltimore and Anne Arundel counties. "white flight" changed the demographics and the funding support for many of the urban schools. A lot of those same sorts of families that had played lax moved into the Catholic schools, and a smattering into the other privates...and into the publics in the counties...which played excellent lacrosse. Basketball and football became the exit path for top black athletes in the urban schools Baltimore area. A few other sports were offered, but lax took an increasingly back seat...there have been ongoing efforts to change this, but uphill climb.

It's fair to say that over the decades the sport was predominantly lower middle to upper middle class, leaning upper sure, but it was never the exclusive domain of the "aristocrat rich"...sure, the top 1% ers had easy access as well, but most of the lax played was in those dense hotbeds. And yes, in all sorts of towns in Canada, Six Nations, etc...that latter group just didn't make up much of what Larry Summers would have seen in the pipeline in his era as President of Harvard.

It's also fair to say that as the sport has grown geographically in the US, it's done so first at wealthy private, then wealthy public schools in each region, then increasingly found in some less well of publics...but not in those which struggle to provide other amenities and opportunities.

AND it's fair to say that our sport has been stubbornly mostly white, though more and more stellar exceptions have been emerging...that said, there were always some exceptions, whether guys like Jim Brown or the great Morgan State teams. But still only 3% at the D1 level.

And that's probably the biggest challenge in a situation where trying to reduce the ways white kids get advantaged over others is a bigger priority, at least at the most selective schools.

Especially well off white kids...

[tmast33]

Despite the constant rants on ESPN continually referring to "The Creator's Game" (no dispute that it is), the fact is that if lacrosse hadn't been kept alive in the Private Schools in Balt/DC, New England West, Mass and NE, there would be no lacrosse explosion and the game would probably still be exclusive to upstate NY reservations, Balt., and LI. When I grew up during the 50s/60s in Westchester County, NY (now considered a hot bed) I only knew of 3 public school programs, Yorktown, Scarsdale and Rye (the last two being essentially the private school demographic).

Unfortunately, too many people equate "Private School" with "aristocracy". Most Private Schools have made themselves very, very accessible to all levels of society when a candidate shows talent as opposed to bloodline.

I must admit that when I raised my son in Northern Westchester (2000s through early 2010s) the town lacrosse was filled with kids who played lacrosse like they had a "birth right" to play while the club was continually blown out in tourneys by club teams from neighboring "blue collar" towns.

[mdk01]

I would total agree with middle class sport, but that is a very wide classification. My issue is with the term aristocratic. It is a is mischaracterization and was only used to inflame.

Agreed.

Summers is an old fa-t and undoubtedly has an impression of only hyper wealthy prep schools playing the sport, which would have been true in the Philadelphia Mainline and surrounding Philly region of his early '70's school days attending wealthy public Harriton High, son of two economics professors at Penn. And that's who likely were on MIT's team when he was there.

Harriton plays lax now, at a base cost of $200, plus a big $ for a spring trip to Florida...but I doubt they played lax in his day. Maybe they did...but he didn't... Same league as Conestoga...

Hilarious you should say that. The cover of the 1975 Lacrosse Guide featured George Braun, from Lower Merion who went to MIT. Harriton did have a team.

[Farfromgeneva]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

aristocratic sport and country club sport are pretty much synonyms. I honestly do not know the socio-economic breakdown of participation in lacrosse across those states, I would bet neither does the author. That is kind of the point. The author and you are making a massive assumptions. They are 1509 registered lacrosse teams in Canada. While the highest level of lacrosse is found in private schools in NY, I would bet there are more teams in NY playing in middle class areas than wealthy. This is kind of a survivor bias situation. We are all aware of the successful programs, but there are tons of teams that dont make the polls or win state championships that people are not accounting for in this discussion. This should be about participation, not success.

Have you seen the decline in Class A and Class B in NYS?

[Farfromgeneva]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

He used the term "middle class" a few posts ago, which I bolded and underlined. These conversations might be aided by definitions of these things, or examples.

Interestingly I think the decline in population and economic issues with CNY/WNY correlate to the general perceived decline of HS lacrosse in those areas. Cue someone pointing out a Victor or J-D/BVille, but section 4 is basically dead compared with the Elmira/Corning region 20-30yrs ago. Same with the browsers Syracuse and Roch areas. I see some green shoots in the Buffalo region economically but otherwise there’s a correlation there that’s fairly obvious to folks who know upstate NY beyond Middletown.

Agreed. I'm wondering if players from Syracuse are not staying in CNY or other upstate areas, because of a lack of economic opportunities, and instead moving to NYC, Boston, etc. This in turn diminishes the lacrosse culture in upstate since the families for whom lacrosse is important are not staying there.

If you’re from W Genny or Corning East and can go to hop, UNC, UVA or an IVY (or others making a point) and have job offers form industry and Wall Street in primary and secondary markets where there’s a larger pool of girls and more money to be made than in Liverpool or Elmira it’s kind of a no brainer. Only guys who marry girls from upstate and/or can make enough staying in lacrosse come back.

[Farfromgeneva]

I would total agree with middle class sport, but that is a very wide classification. My issue is with the term aristocratic. It is a is mischaracterization and was only used to inflame.

Agreed.

Summers is an old fa-t and undoubtedly has an impression of only hyper wealthy prep schools playing the sport, which would have been true in the Philadelphia Mainline and surrounding Philly region of his early '70's school days attending wealthy public Harriton High, son of two economics professors at Penn. And that's who likely were on MIT's team when he was there.

Harriton plays lax now, at a base cost of $200, plus a big $ for a spring trip to Florida...but I doubt they played lax in his day. Maybe they did...but he didn't... Same league as Conestoga...

But that was never true in the main hotbed areas of Baltimore, LI, and Upstate...but true elsewhere. In the hotbeds, lacrosse was played at the then more 'white' ethnic public schools, e.g. in Baltimore and Anne Arundel counties. "white flight" changed the demographics and the funding support for many of the urban schools. A lot of those same sorts of families that had played lax moved into the Catholic schools, and a smattering into the other privates...and into the publics in the counties...which played excellent lacrosse. Basketball and football became the exit path for top black athletes in the urban schools Baltimore area. A few other sports were offered, but lax took an increasingly back seat...there have been ongoing efforts to change this, but uphill climb.

It's fair to say that over the decades the sport was predominantly lower middle to upper middle class, leaning upper sure, but it was never the exclusive domain of the "aristocrat rich"...sure, the top 1% ers had easy access as well, but most of the lax played was in those dense hotbeds. And yes, in all sorts of towns in Canada, Six Nations, etc...that latter group just didn't make up much of what Larry Summers would have seen in the pipeline in his era as President of Harvard.

It's also fair to say that as the sport has grown geographically in the US, it's done so first at wealthy private, then wealthy public schools in each region, then increasingly found in some less well of publics...but not in those which struggle to provide other amenities and opportunities.

AND it's fair to say that our sport has been stubbornly mostly white, though more and more stellar exceptions have been emerging...that said, there were always some exceptions, whether guys like Jim Brown or the great Morgan State teams. But still only 3% at the D1 level.

And that's probably the biggest challenge in a situation where trying to reduce the ways white kids get advantaged over others is a bigger priority, at least at the most selective schools.

Especially well off white kids...

Ahem

https://www.usalaxmagazine.com/college/ ... oul-patrol

[ohmilax34]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

He used the term "middle class" a few posts ago, which I bolded and underlined. These conversations might be aided by definitions of these things, or examples.

Interestingly I think the decline in population and economic issues with CNY/WNY correlate to the general perceived decline of HS lacrosse in those areas. Cue someone pointing out a Victor or J-D/BVille, but section 4 is basically dead compared with the Elmira/Corning region 20-30yrs ago. Same with the browsers Syracuse and Roch areas. I see some green shoots in the Buffalo region economically but otherwise there’s a correlation there that’s fairly obvious to folks who know upstate NY beyond Middletown.

Agreed. I'm wondering if players from Syracuse are not staying in CNY or other upstate areas, because of a lack of economic opportunities, and instead moving to NYC, Boston, etc. This in turn diminishes the lacrosse culture in upstate since the families for whom lacrosse is important are not staying there.

If you’re from W Genny or Corning East and can go to hop, UNC, UVA or an IVY (or others making a point) and have job offers form industry and Wall Street in primary and secondary markets where there’s a larger pool of girls and more money to be made than in Liverpool or Elmira it’s kind of a no brainer. Only guys who marry girls from upstate and/or can make enough staying in lacrosse come back.

Sure, but is this a new development? Tom and Dan Hardy, Matt Abbott, Kenny Nims grew up in CNY and had dads who played at Syracuse. Where do the younger generation live now? Are they helping the CNY lacrosse culture or did they move out? I'm not blaming anyone for anything, but the culture is important.

[Farfromgeneva]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

He used the term "middle class" a few posts ago, which I bolded and underlined. These conversations might be aided by definitions of these things, or examples.

Interestingly I think the decline in population and economic issues with CNY/WNY correlate to the general perceived decline of HS lacrosse in those areas. Cue someone pointing out a Victor or J-D/BVille, but section 4 is basically dead compared with the Elmira/Corning region 20-30yrs ago. Same with the browsers Syracuse and Roch areas. I see some green shoots in the Buffalo region economically but otherwise there’s a correlation there that’s fairly obvious to folks who know upstate NY beyond Middletown.

Agreed. I'm wondering if players from Syracuse are not staying in CNY or other upstate areas, because of a lack of economic opportunities, and instead moving to NYC, Boston, etc. This in turn diminishes the lacrosse culture in upstate since the families for whom lacrosse is important are not staying there.

If you’re from W Genny or Corning East and can go to hop, UNC, UVA or an IVY (or others making a point) and have job offers form industry and Wall Street in primary and secondary markets where there’s a larger pool of girls and more money to be made than in Liverpool or Elmira it’s kind of a no brainer. Only guys who marry girls from upstate and/or can make enough staying in lacrosse come back.

Sure, but is this a new development? Tom and Dan Hardy, Matt Abbott, Kenny Nims grew up in CNY and had dads who played at Syracuse. Where do the younger generation live now? Are they helping the CNY lacrosse culture or did they move out? I'm not blaming anyone for anything, but the culture is important.

I’m a five year class of 01 grad and all my friends who played lacrosse are in LA, Boston, NYC, Denver, Hong Kong, etc. Very few stayed/went back to upstate from my generation and more recent. I think the guys you reference, the dads from the 80s into early 90s, were the last ones to commit to the region. At least anecdotally. When my I sold my mothers house two years ago in binghamton I realized id never likely come back unless it’s to take the kids through on a finger Lakes/Hobart trip. Had great times growing up there but by 2000 it all had changed.

As an example, heres Binghamton’s population over time. Not the strongest area for lacrosse in section 4 but the largest city and hub of southern tier.

1940 78,309 2.1%
1950 80,674 3.0%
1960 75,941 −5.9%
1970 64,123 −15.6%
1980 55,860 −12.9%
1990 53,008 −5.1%
2000 47,380 −10.6%
2010 47,376 0.0%
2020 47,969 1.3%

[ohmilax34]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

He used the term "middle class" a few posts ago, which I bolded and underlined. These conversations might be aided by definitions of these things, or examples.

Interestingly I think the decline in population and economic issues with CNY/WNY correlate to the general perceived decline of HS lacrosse in those areas. Cue someone pointing out a Victor or J-D/BVille, but section 4 is basically dead compared with the Elmira/Corning region 20-30yrs ago. Same with the browsers Syracuse and Roch areas. I see some green shoots in the Buffalo region economically but otherwise there’s a correlation there that’s fairly obvious to folks who know upstate NY beyond Middletown.

Agreed. I'm wondering if players from Syracuse are not staying in CNY or other upstate areas, because of a lack of economic opportunities, and instead moving to NYC, Boston, etc. This in turn diminishes the lacrosse culture in upstate since the families for whom lacrosse is important are not staying there.

If you’re from W Genny or Corning East and can go to hop, UNC, UVA or an IVY (or others making a point) and have job offers form industry and Wall Street in primary and secondary markets where there’s a larger pool of girls and more money to be made than in Liverpool or Elmira it’s kind of a no brainer. Only guys who marry girls from upstate and/or can make enough staying in lacrosse come back.

Sure, but is this a new development? Tom and Dan Hardy, Matt Abbott, Kenny Nims grew up in CNY and had dads who played at Syracuse. Where do the younger generation live now? Are they helping the CNY lacrosse culture or did they move out? I'm not blaming anyone for anything, but the culture is important.

I’m a five year class of 01 grad and all my friends who played lacrosse are in LA, Boston, NYC, Denver, Hong Kong, etc. Very few stayed/went back to upstate from my generation and more recent. I think the guys you reference, the dads from the 80s into early 90s, were the last ones to commit to the region. At least anecdotally. When my I sold my mothers house two years ago in binghamton I realized id never likely come back unless it’s to take the kids through on a finger Lakes/Hobart trip. Had great times growing up there but by 2000 it all had changed.

As an example, heres Binghamton’s population over time. Not the strongest area for lacrosse in section 4 but the largest city and hub of southern tier.

1940 78,309 2.1%
1950 80,674 3.0%
1960 75,941 −5.9%
1970 64,123 −15.6%
1980 55,860 −12.9%
1990 53,008 −5.1%
2000 47,380 −10.6%
2010 47,376 0.0%
2020 47,969 1.3%

Thanks for the info!

[wgdsr]

upstate, while still fertile, had fallen back well before just recently. there are still a sh*t-ton of guys in central that stayed back. it can be a lot of things, including a changing and wider landscape, but having youth coaches and on up isn't one of them.

in the numbers game, yes. not enough athletes around vs. what's now the competition.

[MDlaxfan76]

I would total agree with middle class sport, but that is a very wide classification. My issue is with the term aristocratic. It is a is mischaracterization and was only used to inflame.

Agreed.

Summers is an old fa-t and undoubtedly has an impression of only hyper wealthy prep schools playing the sport, which would have been true in the Philadelphia Mainline and surrounding Philly region of his early '70's school days attending wealthy public Harriton High, son of two economics professors at Penn. And that's who likely were on MIT's team when he was there.

Harriton plays lax now, at a base cost of $200, plus a big $ for a spring trip to Florida...but I doubt they played lax in his day. Maybe they did...but he didn't... Same league as Conestoga...

Hilarious you should say that. The cover of the 1975 Lacrosse Guide featured George Braun, from Lower Merion who went to MIT. Harriton did have a team.

Great detail; I hadn't known that they did back in that era...Mainline of Philly. Thanks for the correction; I wasn't able to find that using google.

Lower Merion is quite nice...

I was intrigued by the reference to George Braun and I seem to recall that guide, that would have been my junior year in HS.

Googled George, and found a reference to him at MIT...in Sport Illustrated article. https://vault.si.com/vault/1975/05/26/b ... brains-out

comically written.

He won MIT's top athlete award that year too.

[MDlaxfan76]

I would total agree with middle class sport, but that is a very wide classification. My issue is with the term aristocratic. It is a is mischaracterization and was only used to inflame.

Agreed.

Summers is an old fa-t and undoubtedly has an impression of only hyper wealthy prep schools playing the sport, which would have been true in the Philadelphia Mainline and surrounding Philly region of his early '70's school days attending wealthy public Harriton High, son of two economics professors at Penn. And that's who likely were on MIT's team when he was there.

Harriton plays lax now, at a base cost of $200, plus a big $ for a spring trip to Florida...but I doubt they played lax in his day. Maybe they did...but he didn't... Same league as Conestoga...

But that was never true in the main hotbed areas of Baltimore, LI, and Upstate...but true elsewhere. In the hotbeds, lacrosse was played at the then more 'white' ethnic public schools, e.g. in Baltimore and Anne Arundel counties. "white flight" changed the demographics and the funding support for many of the urban schools. A lot of those same sorts of families that had played lax moved into the Catholic schools, and a smattering into the other privates...and into the publics in the counties...which played excellent lacrosse. Basketball and football became the exit path for top black athletes in the urban schools Baltimore area. A few other sports were offered, but lax took an increasingly back seat...there have been ongoing efforts to change this, but uphill climb.

It's fair to say that over the decades the sport was predominantly lower middle to upper middle class, leaning upper sure, but it was never the exclusive domain of the "aristocrat rich"...sure, the top 1% ers had easy access as well, but most of the lax played was in those dense hotbeds. And yes, in all sorts of towns in Canada, Six Nations, etc...that latter group just didn't make up much of what Larry Summers would have seen in the pipeline in his era as President of Harvard.

It's also fair to say that as the sport has grown geographically in the US, it's done so first at wealthy private, then wealthy public schools in each region, then increasingly found in some less well of publics...but not in those which struggle to provide other amenities and opportunities.

AND it's fair to say that our sport has been stubbornly mostly white, though more and more stellar exceptions have been emerging...that said, there were always some exceptions, whether guys like Jim Brown or the great Morgan State teams. But still only 3% at the D1 level.

And that's probably the biggest challenge in a situation where trying to reduce the ways white kids get advantaged over others is a bigger priority, at least at the most selective schools.

Especially well off white kids...

Ahem

https://www.usalaxmagazine.com/college/ ... oul-patrol

Indeed, exceptions. Those were some great Hobart teams!

[coda]

This choice of words by former Harvard President Summers was troubling. More so in that it was tied to legacy admissions. Lacrosse certainly has an image of being an upper middle class sport, although there is plenty of evidence that this image is a debatable one.

Specifically to Harvard, they reported that 15 percent of their class was legacies. This is about 300 students in a class of approximately 2000. I understand that Cornell is approximately the same as a percentage.

There seem to be a lot of lacrosse athletes in the NCAA who were encouraged by their parents to take up lacrosse, and an attack on legacy admissions (which is already being materially phased out) could impact lacrosse recruiting if a legacy is part of the process.

As someone who has taken his kid to play at 6 nations, I am not sure it is accurate to call it aristocratic. I have to admit that I did not see Larry Summers there

There are exceptions.

Its a native American game and heavily played in Canada. Go to a Junior B game and see how aristocratic the fans are. While people tend to associate it with schools on LI and private schools in Maryland, there are plenty of middle class schools in playing Lacrosse in upstate NY and Maryland also. I certainly would not put it on par with rowing.

Those are exceptions. Maryland and LI have a Long history of lacrosse. PAL ran lacrosse on LI in the old days. I have worked in the past with a program in a tough urban market. Those are exceptions. Friend’s son is playing Ontario Junior A this summer, BTW. Another friend’s son played BC Junior A last summer…..

So the areas that represent the largest population of lacrosse players are the exception (like the entire state of NY)? I have no issue saying it is generally an upper middle class sport, but lets not confuse lacrosse with country club sports.

So are saying that across NYS and Maryland, lacrosse is played primarily in working class communities? Not sure anyone said lacrosse is a country club sport such as tennis, golf, polo or possibly squash.

aristocratic sport and country club sport are pretty much synonyms. I honestly do not know the socio-economic breakdown of participation in lacrosse across those states, I would bet neither does the author. That is kind of the point. The author and you are making a massive assumptions. They are 1509 registered lacrosse teams in Canada. While the highest level of lacrosse is found in private schools in NY, I would bet there are more teams in NY playing in middle class areas than wealthy. This is kind of a survivor bias situation. We are all aware of the successful programs, but there are tons of teams that dont make the polls or win state championships that people are not accounting for in this discussion. This should be about participation, not success.

Have you seen the decline in Class A and Class B in NYS?

The question is are there more HS playing lacrosse in NY in rich areas compared to middle class areas?

[44WeWantMore]

$100K in West Genny will feel a whole lot smaller if you take that and move to LI.

So, comparisons are hard.