SCOTUS

[Farfromgeneva]

...... so Biden tosses one to the far left who think fairness means not honoring contracts.

Yeah, thats a REALLY annoying worldview. "Contracts are for me, not for thee".

How do we feel about PPP?

Does it make a difference that there was a pandemic?
Was that money not only useful to keep employees employed and for their $ to recirculate?
Beneficial to the economy?

And if small businesses, why not students who studies show are delaying families, delaying home purchases, etc?

Or was all of it an error because not everyone benefited directly from each program?

PPP was a terrible way to provide stimulus liquidity to the system. Running it through the banks was clearly a mistake. And I still believe govt spending has a weaker effect on M2 than private. And let’s not forget PPP was related to a (reasonable but) required shutdown of business.

I’m sure you’re not comparing pandemic “emergency” (like in 08) stimulus to people who took out loans fully aware of what they were agreeing to and living with the consequences. I don’t see the comparison or the reality of your last sentence. Used to need min 20% down and folks waited longer to buy homes I don’t think those things are rights. It’s a mistake to conflate homeownership with a right.

I may not have been clear. I don't hear folks saying, or at least not the same folks saying, that forgiveness of PPP loans was unfair as are saying that forgiveness of student debt is unfair.

Was PPP necessary? Yikes, hard to know...we were definitely at a precipice.
Was it effectively administered? Well, in the luxury of not urgent hindsight, obviously not.
The fraud involved was off the charts!

But if one (not you) is to argue that PPP was reasonable, taking advantage of such, voting for such, themselves, and yet clearly not benefiting everyone the same...how can they reasonably argue that a decision to release the demographic power of family formation and home ownership this way is unfair?

The M2 argument, private versus public, is interesting but not actually relevant when there's an extreme shock to the system, including the government decisions made to address that shock...and no way to ensure that private response will be sufficient given the realities of dispersed incentives.

In the short term.

This of course is only discussing whether it's a sound idea with economic benefit (yup, releasing private investment and decision making) or simply a sop to gain votes. It can of course be both, but then not only about political benefit.

And then there's the accrual of power of the Courts through this newly created "major questions doctrine" that is being used to ignore any actual standing, any actual facts of damage, to simply step and replace the judgments of elected legislatures and POTUS.

In this instance, various states claimed standing that had zero basis, no plausible damage claim, and Missouri claimed standing because of a company they claimed would lose $44 million if the policy went through and they didn't get the service fees. And thus the state would lose tax revenue. Put aside that the company refused to claim damages themselves, refused to be a party to the suit, and subsequent analysis showed they'd actually make more money if they didn't have to service the loans anymore (it's been a money loser for them, apparently)...

But hey, this SCOTUS needs to step in because they have their own "feelings" that this might be "unfair"...yikes.

If M2 isn’t relevant because one is a temporary shock then it means the comparison doesn’t work. And I raised it because you argue that there’s a net positive economic impact to letting folks skate from their loan receivable contracts that didn’t have a shock/exogenous event. Effectively arguing having the govt absorb college costs is a net positive to the economy. I don’t see how that argument can be made without making all higher ed 100% public. Incongruous you be on both side of that.

I don’t believe it’s an economic benefit net of all costs fully loaded with the effect of latency to see the impacts and stripping other considerations.

And again comparing PPP where we told them they couldn’t be open and the funds paid to keep employees (still need to certify retention of employees not for general funds though it’s fungible once received clearly) when they govt forced a shutdown. They haven’t stopped anyone from earning an income, even strictly speaking during Covid, so yes this is clearly throwing a bone for votes. Anyone who really believes it’s good policy on it’s own merit in isolation I can’t agree with here.

As I said, M2 is irrelevant when the shock to the system is huge. Private decisions can't act sufficiently, are overwhelmed.

It IS relevant when such doesn't exist, or at least is a factor most of the time. It doesn't mean that government spending as no multiplier effect, just that when all else is equal, it just can be less than a comparable set of private decisions can be.

However, a social safety net and various strategic choices in a world in which are not alone may well be more effective through government as private decision making doesn't have the same individual incentives to achieve public good...moreover, those government spends provide a more stable environment in which private decision making can actually thrive. (We have a legislative and executive process to make those decisions.)

So, it ain't as simple as private = good, public = bad.

I think it's an entirely reasonable argument to make that many of the businesses which received loans that were forgiven were impacted directly by government public health mandates (albeit very few businesses were prevented from being open by the federal government, so when we say "government" we're muddying). But not all who were hurt received free money, and there was immense fraud among those who didn't deserve it.

But sure, this student loan forgiveness concept is designed to provide a benefit to a specific group of people (44 million voters...and their families). Can it be justified by long term economic benefit of encouraging more young people to have children sooner? Purchase houses and furnishings sooner?

Versus M2 arguments, maybe not but on its own, it's not as if it has no merit.

And yeah, there are those who would indeed argue to make public college education and technical school education free for all. Private schools would likely try to continue to differentiate and some would close or be acquired by others. Those who are able to maintain special brand status would continue.

I'd note that very few of those loans that were scheduled to be forgiven were for kids like my son, whose loan was not eligible for forgiveness. Most of them are with kids with Pell status or private technical schools set up to attract kids but which don't deliver solid jobs thereafter...and former students whose college path was interrupted by death in family, children, etc...some are 4 year school but with career paths that don't pay well, teachers, social workers, etc...but we need teachers and social workers...

Now, do I think the concept could have been even more targeted? sure. And are there better uses for that money? sure. More efficient usage? sure...

However, we then we get back to how our system is supposed to work. Congress passed a law granting discretion to Administration (Secretary of Education) to make a decision like this during an emergency (which is when the decision was made); SCOTUS is saying, "no, we can overrule the Administration, and we can over rule Congress' authority to legislate"...and they did so without any legitimate plaintiff with harm to be addressed...yikes, that ain't how it's supposed to work.

We want to vote for a different Congress, different President, because we disagree with how they're spending taxpayer money? THAT is how it's supposed to work.

BTW, how do we feel about those huge grants made to large corporate farms because they were hurt during the trade wars under Trump? Free money, mostly taken advantage of by the largest farming interests...

I didn’t see any case really strongly made in here and while this is a scotus thread the question posed or hypothesis was specific to whether it made sense or had net value over not doing it.

Social safety net case - no way. Not when considering other social safety nets that should be addressed first (unless buying votes)

As to legality it’s not clear this passed the smell test it wasn’t a nasty arbitraging of codified language over spirit and essence of the rule set intended - ir its pulling a fast one at best and dubious that it is being done this way vs a more open and transparent agenda so hard for me to get so upset in arms about scotus on this given the underlying behavior isn’t exactly ethical as to how it’s attempted to being executed.

If it’s helping families that’s incongruous with your original claim the benefit comes in part from faster or more household formation. Maybe we improve immigration and open the borders more than social engineering this way?

I didn’t see anything above making a compelling case that there’s actual ent value (net vs the cost which I don’t see you addressing and it’s hard to quantify but you know full well it’s massive and in ways we can’t even contemplate to the negative side of the g/l. As far as justifying it? I’m a smart guy and you are. We both could justify rape and murder if we wanted to do being able to make a case/justification sound plausible doesn’t pass any test for me. Would need a far more quantitative and second, their order considered modeling and forecasting wit various scenarios on the table for me to buy it being anything more than a cookie from the wish list being tossed to people who don’t actually care about the societal good and are being selfish. It’s on the rest of us to push back so as to maintain some palatable equilibrium.

As for Trump and farms? Of course it’s nonsense. A. I am making this case in isolation of what others do but yes that’s buying votes as well. B. That’s a very low benchmark when we’re inside a year from the primaries and; C. Please don’t forget I’m an extreme form of libertarian in many ways who would get rid of fdic insurance, mortgages interest deduction, fan/Fred, ag subsidies, trade barriers etc which you know so asking me how I feel about trumps farm giveaway, or even PPP, seems a bit redundant.

[Farfromgeneva]

The Supreme Court falls to Earth

Sam Baker
The Supreme Court is falling off the pedestal it built for itself, down into the muck of normal politics.

Why it matters: That's increasingly how the public sees it. That's how the rest of the political system treats it. And it's getting harder and harder to believe the justices aren't interested in wielding that power.

The big picture: The justices tried very hard, for a very long time, to cultivate a perception that they existed on an elevated, erudite plane far above the petty concerns that occupy elected politicians.

They said the court's work was wholly separate from considerations like public opinion. Even when they had to take up a case with political implications, they approached it only as a question of legal scholarship, not sullied by ideology or policy preferences.
That image is all but dead.

When history looks back on the term that just ended, what stands out the most may not be any particular ruling, but rather its place in the trend — long-simmering, but quickly accelerating — toward seeing the court for what it is: the single most powerful weapon in U.S. politics.
Driving the news: At every turn, the court looks more like run-of-the-mill, outcomes-driven, raw-power politics.

The unprecedented leak of a draft opinion in last year's abortion case was very much the type of leak that has historically only happened in other parts of the government.
For that matter, so were the leaks about Chief Justice John Roberts switching his vote to save Obamacare in 2012.
ProPublica uncovered ethics issues this year that would be a real controversy for anyone who had to get reelected to their powerful job: Wealthy GOP donors with interests before the court paid for luxury vacations for Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, who didn't disclose those gifts, ProPublica reported. Thomas also reportedly sold a family home to GOP donor Harlan Crow.
The justices' reactions to controversy haven't helped.

Alito, borrowing a page from any decent political operative's playbook, tried to get ahead of the story, pre-butting ProPublica's investigation with a Wall Street Journal op-ed.
Alito is probably the most willing of all the justices to speak his mind in public. He delivered a speech in 2021 dismissing criticism of the court's "shadow docket" as "rank nonsense," and has used public speeches to criticize COVID restrictions and the broad cultural acceptance of same-sex marriage.
Confirmation hearings are a circus. Start the clock on that trend wherever you want — Robert Bork, Merrick Garland, take your pick. But we've ended up in a place where the Senate treats the process like the prize fight it is — not neutral intellectual pursuit, as it was once framed.

As recently as the Obama administration, Supreme Court nominees still got broad bipartisan support. Democrats put an end to that under President Trump, and it's not coming back.
Between the lines: You can even see it, sometimes, in the court's writing.

This past week's affirmative action rulings were highly charged and highly personal — a far cry from dispassionate legal interpretation.
By the numbers: The public is noticing all of this.

Just 18% of Americans said they had a great deal of confidence in the Supreme Court, in a NORC poll that followed last year's abortion ruling.
At the same time, 36% said they have hardly any confidence in the court — an increase of more than 10 percentage points in just a few years.
Reality check: The court has not become political.

An institution with this much power to decide inherently political issues — from voting rights to campaign finance law to matters of life and death, what the federal government can and cannot do, the limits of the First Amendment, even who gets to be the president — is, and has always been, a political institution.
But perception is catching up to that reality.

[Brooklyn]

Interesting how Pence and other right wingers applaud the SC's decision on the student loans with their excuse being that taxpayers should not have to subsidize impoverished former students, some of whom resort to suicide in order to deal with their grief. Yet, these same delusionals have no problem with subsidizing farmers, oil interests, the military industrial complex, other corporate capitalist welfare queens, and pro fascist Zelenskyy who applauded Nazi Stepan Bandera.

[Seacoaster(1)]

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/03/opin ... court.html

“In June 2012, at the end of a contentious Supreme Court term that decided, among other things, the fate of the Affordable Care Act, Chief Justice John Roberts prepared to leave for Malta, to teach a course on the court. “Malta, as you know, is an impregnable island fortress,” he joked on the eve of his trip. “It seemed like a good idea.”

Eleven years later, Malta no doubt retains its allure. The term that just ended must have been a torment for the chief. The court’s popularity has plunged to record lows; its members bicker on and off the bench; calls for the court to be packed are commonplace. Such circumstances would pain any chief justice, this one more than most. From the start of his tenure in 2005, he has painted himself as an institutionalist whose paramount concern is the court’s integrity. He conducts himself accordingly: He is decorous, almost regal; he speaks of moderation and judicial minimalism. He keeps a sovereign’s distance from modern life. In 1867, in a classic book on the English constitution, Walter Bagehot wrote that in times of change, “the most imposing institutions of mankind” maintain influence by demonstrating an “inherent dignity.” It is ironic, perhaps bitterly so, that a collapse in public esteem has become a hallmark of the Roberts court. Rarely, in recent decades, has the institution seemed less worthy of reverence.

The chief justice is portrayed by some as a tragic figure, powerless to save his court from itself. But the tragedy of John Roberts is that he does have the power to restore some measure of the court’s reputation — he just hasn’t used it. He has attempted, here and there, to restrain the court’s crusaders — by siding with liberals in the Alabama voting rights case, for example, and soundly rejecting the “independent state legislature” theory — but mostly, he has suggested that their methods and conduct are above reproach. His idea of integrity, it turns out, is a brittle thing, and self-defeating. It has put the court’s reputation at greater risk; it has made the court more, not less, vulnerable to public scrutiny and to encroachment by Congress and the White House.

This term will likely be remembered as the year the Supreme Court, led by its chief justice, ended race-conscious admissions at the nation’s colleges and universities. But the larger story of this term has been one of ethical rot and official indifference. Justices Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch and Clarence Thomas drew attention — not for the first time — for their close ties to wealthy benefactors who have business before the court. Reports by ProPublica and in The New York Times show justices accepting gifts and blandishments as monarchs might: free vacations at luxury resorts; undisclosed trips on private jets and yachts; and, in Justice Thomas’s case, largess in the form of private-school for a family member, secret real estate deals and donations to pet projects of the justice and his wife, Virginia Thomas. This is hardly a complete list.

As their conduct has grown more unrestrained, so has the tenor of their public statements. Justice Alito’s peremptory, self-exculpatory op-ed in The Wall Street Journal in June, denying even a hint of an appearance of impropriety, was shocking — unless you happen to have caught his comments in the right-wing echo chamber. At conferences and galas, the justice unspools his grievances — against nonbelievers, same-sex marriage, the 21st century — sounding less like a jurist than “a conservative talk-radio host,” as Margaret Talbot wrote in The New Yorker.

This behavior has bled into the business of the court. Observers have seen a new contentiousness during oral arguments; Justice Alito’s after-hours persona is increasingly on display and of a piece with his opinions. Dobbs, last year’s decision on abortion rights, was typical of the genre, notable not only for its results but its biting, indignant and sometimes exultant tone. Even a unanimous ruling can be occasion for cheap shots: In Sackett v. E.P.A., handed down in May, the justice kicked the agency when it was down, suggesting that if it had its way, it would regulate “swimming pools and puddles.” In a similar vein, Justice Gorsuch used a routine court order as a pretext for an eight-page jeremiad, portraying pandemic-era restrictions as a systematic assault on American freedom, and seeing, in the closure of public spaces during the worst of the emergency, creeping signs of “autocracy.”

Whatever Chief Justice Roberts thinks of their behavior, it is plain that judicial independence on his court has come to mean judicial license: a freedom to do and say what a justice pleases. In May, at an American Law Institute gala, the chief sought to “assure people that I am committed to making certain that we as a court adhere to the highest standards of conduct.” Yet he acknowledged no lapse, announced no new policy, made no promise to keep Congress or the public informed.

What he did do was note the judiciary’s “status as an independent branch of government.” This — the separation of powers — has always been his trump card. He cited it in April when he refused to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee on the issue of ethics. He cited it in 2012, brushing aside calls for the court to adopt the code of conduct that binds other federal judges. At a time when the justices have lost the public’s trust, Chief Justice Roberts has reaffirmed that they will continue to serve as their own judges and jury, their own inspectors general and ombudsmen. They will ask themselves for leniency, and are sure to bestow it. Justice Alito brought this home in his op-ed: There is no appearance of impropriety, because he tells us there is not. Justice Alito has cleared Justice Alito.

But the appearance of impropriety cannot simply be waved away. It cannot be ruled inadmissible in the court of public opinion. To paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, we know it when we see it — and indeed, we have seen a good deal of it. Perhaps, behind the scenes, the chief is working toward reform. Perhaps he has admonished his colleagues, urged restraint. If so, he has failed. To redeem the reputation of his court, he must do more to put his house in order. “This is something that the court itself needs to come to grips with,” Senator John Cornyn of Texas said as the term was ending. “I hope that John Roberts will do that.”

Republicans like Senator Cornyn want the chief justice to take the matter in hand before Congress does; the effort to impose an ethics code on the court has gained momentum. No such legislation is likely to make it through the House, but Chief Justice Roberts should take Senator Cornyn’s friendly advice. He should adopt a more assertive posture, and publicly. A chief justice, it is often said, is merely first among equals. But in that role, he can speak for — and to — his court with an authority no associate justice can match. It is well past time to commit himself and his colleagues to clearer, stricter, enforceable standards of conduct. The gravest danger the court faces today is not congressional oversight, but its own sense of impunity.“

[Brooklyn]

Impoverished former students don't quite rate with tRump:


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/lende ... 1603844181


Since 2010, lenders have forgiven President Donald Trump about $287 million in debt that he had failed to repay, the New York Times reported ...



Too bad we can't all be such privileged welfare receiving capitalist welfare Queens like him.

[MDlaxfan76]

Impoverished former students don't quite rate with tRump:


https://www.marketwatch.com/story/lende ... 1603844181


Since 2010, lenders have forgiven President Donald Trump about $287 million in debt that he had failed to repay, the New York Times reported ...



Too bad we can't all be such privileged welfare receiving capitalist welfare Queens like him.

As well as the possible tax fraud, and that's he such a clear bum, the open question remains why some financial institutions gave him so many breaks.

Most real estate developers, including those with much better reputations, wouldn't get cut such slack. They'd have to make good or else collateral sold at auction.

I'm very skeptical that he sweet talked them or 'strong-armed' them all on his lonesome. Repeatedly.

Have to be either decisions getting made corruptly by individuals, or external pressures brought to bear on his behalf, corruptly.

DB, in particular, helped launder Russian money:https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016 ... on-scandal

https://www.dw.com/en/deutsche-banks-5- ... a-46510219

Maybe all unrelated...

[DocBarrister]

Harvard is now being sued to end its legacy preferences.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... sions/amp/

One recent study showed the legacy admission rate to be around 34%, more than 5x the regular admission rate. Overwhelmingly helped White applicants.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/educatio ... complaint/

The elimination of legacy preferences at Johns Hopkins decreased the legacy percentage of the class from about 12% to 3.5% and increased diversity.

https://www.diverseeducation.com/home/a ... -it-worked

DocBarrister

[jhu72]

... frankly I think their monied bosses are spooked, panicked! These decisions were really bone head moves from a political perspective. You already have the Dobbs disaster and that is getting worse for the republiCONs. You throw on top of that the affirmative action decision which is disagreed with by 65+ % of the country. You throw on top of that the two decisions today; the debt forgiveness ruling at minimum massively excites the democratic base and I am told there are poor blue collar MAGA voters that are also ticked by the decisions, the dems may pick off some of these voters moving this towards a 60% issue (from the 50% today) much like the abortion issue moved significantly after Dobbs. The religious freedom (web designer) case is so clearly a put up job this will also strongly motivate the democratic base and could pull more voters to the dems when the issue is recast as a SCOTUS corruption issue could, which is a layup to make that argument when their polling numbers are sitting at 30%. This one may have been the religious fascists forcing them to make that decision by threatening withholding of support.

All of these are losing political issues! So why do it?? They could have waited, roll this sh*t out over a number of terms. Perhaps the good old boys pulling the strings are feeling real worried, this had to get done before the next election, where it was already looking real good for the dems, not just Biden.

Roberts has to know his ass is going to look like raw meat in the coming weeks. The dems are going to be setting the court up as a whipping boy and proxy for the republiCONs. Hence his self-serving press release this afternoon trying to get out ahead of the whipping he expects.

I still can’t get there on student loan forgiveness. Want to create parity in BK laws and make it dischargeable that’s fine but there has to be consequences still.

The ONLY reason it makes a little sense is that for many of these loans, the principle was paid back.....and we're talking about the Federal .gov asking for MORE than they actually loaned out. So: who cares?

But yeah, I agree 100% that in principle, there's far better places to provide relief and/or help.

Example? What about current students taking out these same stupid loans? F them, right?

... there is a bigger picture not being considered. In the US today, if you look across all of society, the types of debt carried by the public, home mortgage as would be guessed is the #1 load on the system, by a large margin. #2 is student debt again by a wide margin is the next biggest load by $ volume. Credit Card, automobile debt, and other consumer debts are farther down the list. Some interesting facts about these debts, student loans, in terms of numbers participating are fewer than Credit Card, automobile and other consumer loans. The value of debt per participant is only rivaled by home mortgages and healthcare. The effect of this on the economy is huge. You have a large segment of society that due to student debt will be delayed from entering the home market at best and at worst barred from entry forever!!

It is also interesting that the student loan debt is the only one of the consumer debts that can't be discharged by bankruptcy. You go bankrupt because of credit card debt - the credit card balance is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of home debt, you lose the home and the debt is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of student debt, the debt is not wiped out. No matter what you are saddled with this debt!

While the borrows are not blameless neither is society. The federal government (republiCONs pushed for it) allowed for student loans to be taken to attend unscrupulous educational enterprises (grifters) (Betsy Devos' constituency). Those advertising the moon and delivering a debt trap. This is a scam designed to trap the poor and ignorant. This is not to say that some otherwise legitimate colleges and universities have also not been bad actors.

[a fan]

... there is a bigger picture not being considered. In the US today, if you look across all of society, the types of debt carried by the public, home mortgage as would be guessed is the #1 load on the system, by a large margin. #2 is student debt again by a wide margin is the next biggest load by $ volume. Credit Card, automobile debt, and other consumer debts are farther down the list. Some interesting facts about these debts, student loans, in terms of numbers participating are fewer than Credit Card, automobile and other consumer loans. The value of debt per participant is only rivaled by home mortgages and healthcare. The effect of this on the economy is huge. You have a large segment of society that due to student debt will be delayed from entering the home market at best and at worst barred from entry forever!!

It is also interesting that the student loan debt is the only one of the consumer debts that can't be discharged by bankruptcy. You go bankrupt because of credit card debt - the credit card balance is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of home debt, you lose the home and the debt is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of student debt, the debt is not wiped out. No matter what you are saddled with this debt!

While the borrows are not blameless neither is society. The federal government (republiCONs pushed for it) allowed for student loans to be taken to attend unscrupulous educational enterprises (grifters) (Betsy Devos' constituency). Those advertising the moon and delivering a debt trap. This is a scam designed to trap the poor and ignorant. This is not to say that some otherwise legitimate colleges and universities have also not been bad actors.

Oh, I agree with the economic drag part. And the absurd bankruptcy rule. But let's say we wash all this away. Now kids entering college in 2023 start the whole mess all over again.

What I want? Free college or vocational training at any State run college/training center.

All "paid for" with community service, just like the GI Bill was.

The fact that we're doing NOTHING about this obvious problem is infuriating. My dad paid for Syracuse on a mix of scholarships and construction over the summer. That financial math is LAUGHABLE in 2023....and no one in Congress is smart enough to fix this obvious problem.

[jhu72]

... there is a bigger picture not being considered. In the US today, if you look across all of society, the types of debt carried by the public, home mortgage as would be guessed is the #1 load on the system, by a large margin. #2 is student debt again by a wide margin is the next biggest load by $ volume. Credit Card, automobile debt, and other consumer debts are farther down the list. Some interesting facts about these debts, student loans, in terms of numbers participating are fewer than Credit Card, automobile and other consumer loans. The value of debt per participant is only rivaled by home mortgages and healthcare. The effect of this on the economy is huge. You have a large segment of society that due to student debt will be delayed from entering the home market at best and at worst barred from entry forever!!

It is also interesting that the student loan debt is the only one of the consumer debts that can't be discharged by bankruptcy. You go bankrupt because of credit card debt - the credit card balance is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of home debt, you lose the home and the debt is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of student debt, the debt is not wiped out. No matter what you are saddled with this debt!

While the borrows are not blameless neither is society. The federal government (republiCONs pushed for it) allowed for student loans to be taken to attend unscrupulous educational enterprises (grifters) (Betsy Devos' constituency). Those advertising the moon and delivering a debt trap. This is a scam designed to trap the poor and ignorant. This is not to say that some otherwise legitimate colleges and universities have also not been bad actors.

Oh, I agree with the economic drag part. And the absurd bankruptcy rule. But let's say we wash all this away. Now kids entering college in 2023 start the whole mess all over again.

What I want? Free college or vocational training at any State run college/training center.

All "paid for" with community service, just like the GI Bill was.

The fact that we're doing NOTHING about this obvious problem is infuriating. My dad paid for Syracuse on a mix of scholarships and construction over the summer. That financial math is LAUGHABLE in 2023....and no one in Congress is smart enough to fix this obvious problem.

... you and I are on the same page as far as you go. Frankly I want retribution on the grifters who have caused a large part of this and those who knew better and just went along because there was a dollar in it.

[cradleandshoot]

... there is a bigger picture not being considered. In the US today, if you look across all of society, the types of debt carried by the public, home mortgage as would be guessed is the #1 load on the system, by a large margin. #2 is student debt again by a wide margin is the next biggest load by $ volume. Credit Card, automobile debt, and other consumer debts are farther down the list. Some interesting facts about these debts, student loans, in terms of numbers participating are fewer than Credit Card, automobile and other consumer loans. The value of debt per participant is only rivaled by home mortgages and healthcare. The effect of this on the economy is huge. You have a large segment of society that due to student debt will be delayed from entering the home market at best and at worst barred from entry forever!!

It is also interesting that the student loan debt is the only one of the consumer debts that can't be discharged by bankruptcy. You go bankrupt because of credit card debt - the credit card balance is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of home debt, you lose the home and the debt is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of student debt, the debt is not wiped out. No matter what you are saddled with this debt!

While the borrows are not blameless neither is society. The federal government (republiCONs pushed for it) allowed for student loans to be taken to attend unscrupulous educational enterprises (grifters) (Betsy Devos' constituency). Those advertising the moon and delivering a debt trap. This is a scam designed to trap the poor and ignorant. This is not to say that some otherwise legitimate colleges and universities have also not been bad actors.

Oh, I agree with the economic drag part. And the absurd bankruptcy rule. But let's say we wash all this away. Now kids entering college in 2023 start the whole mess all over again.

What I want? Free college or vocational training at any State run college/training center.

All "paid for" with community service, just like the GI Bill was.

The fact that we're doing NOTHING about this obvious problem is infuriating. My dad paid for Syracuse on a mix of scholarships and construction over the summer. That financial math is LAUGHABLE in 2023....and no one in Congress is smart enough to fix this obvious problem.

... you and I are on the same page as far as you go. Frankly I want retribution on the grifters who have caused a large part of this and those who knew better and just went along because there was a dollar in it.

Would those grifters include all the colleges and universities that raised their rates exorbitantly every year knowing so many of these younguns would sell their souls to the devil for that degree from a prestigious college not having any idea what they want to do in life. I applied and was accepted to St Bonaventure in 1976. I backed out for those same reasons. There was no way I was going to take out those kind of loans knowing how much I disliked school after 12 years.

[Farfromgeneva]

... frankly I think their monied bosses are spooked, panicked! These decisions were really bone head moves from a political perspective. You already have the Dobbs disaster and that is getting worse for the republiCONs. You throw on top of that the affirmative action decision which is disagreed with by 65+ % of the country. You throw on top of that the two decisions today; the debt forgiveness ruling at minimum massively excites the democratic base and I am told there are poor blue collar MAGA voters that are also ticked by the decisions, the dems may pick off some of these voters moving this towards a 60% issue (from the 50% today) much like the abortion issue moved significantly after Dobbs. The religious freedom (web designer) case is so clearly a put up job this will also strongly motivate the democratic base and could pull more voters to the dems when the issue is recast as a SCOTUS corruption issue could, which is a layup to make that argument when their polling numbers are sitting at 30%. This one may have been the religious fascists forcing them to make that decision by threatening withholding of support.

All of these are losing political issues! So why do it?? They could have waited, roll this sh*t out over a number of terms. Perhaps the good old boys pulling the strings are feeling real worried, this had to get done before the next election, where it was already looking real good for the dems, not just Biden.

Roberts has to know his ass is going to look like raw meat in the coming weeks. The dems are going to be setting the court up as a whipping boy and proxy for the republiCONs. Hence his self-serving press release this afternoon trying to get out ahead of the whipping he expects.

I still can’t get there on student loan forgiveness. Want to create parity in BK laws and make it dischargeable that’s fine but there has to be consequences still.

The ONLY reason it makes a little sense is that for many of these loans, the principle was paid back.....and we're talking about the Federal .gov asking for MORE than they actually loaned out. So: who cares?

But yeah, I agree 100% that in principle, there's far better places to provide relief and/or help.

Example? What about current students taking out these same stupid loans? F them, right?

... there is a bigger picture not being considered. In the US today, if you look across all of society, the types of debt carried by the public, home mortgage as would be guessed is the #1 load on the system, by a large margin. #2 is student debt again by a wide margin is the next biggest load by $ volume. Credit Card, automobile debt, and other consumer debts are farther down the list. Some interesting facts about these debts, student loans, in terms of numbers participating are fewer than Credit Card, automobile and other consumer loans. The value of debt per participant is only rivaled by home mortgages and healthcare. The effect of this on the economy is huge. You have a large segment of society that due to student debt will be delayed from entering the home market at best and at worst barred from entry forever!!

It is also interesting that the student loan debt is the only one of the consumer debts that can't be discharged by bankruptcy. You go bankrupt because of credit card debt - the credit card balance is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of home debt, you lose the home and the debt is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of student debt, the debt is not wiped out. No matter what you are saddled with this debt!

While the borrows are not blameless neither is society. The federal government (republiCONs pushed for it) allowed for student loans to be taken to attend unscrupulous educational enterprises (grifters) (Betsy Devos' constituency). Those advertising the moon and delivering a debt trap. This is a scam designed to trap the poor and ignorant. This is not to say that some otherwise legitimate colleges and universities have also not been bad actors.

I’ve considered it which is why I keep using “net” benefit. Cost/benefit. I don’t buy the social investment aspect because then you have to a Tory social debts and debt service of that.

Housing prices are a function of monetary policy. Wr subsidized housing and higher Ed. So what. It’s what everyone wanted. Here’s the bill foe it.

People used to have to hve larger down payments and couldn’t order food out every night-I know tons of kids in their 20s who never cook and make less than $100k/yr and still have college debt.

Allow for it to be discharged in Bk. That’s the social safety net here not wiping out the debt.

Maybe more hazard and slippery slope hve been overused but there’s a massive cost to not having consequences for actions.0

[DocBarrister]

I don’t understand why President Biden and the Democrats aren’t choosing to make federal student loans interest free. That would still require borrowers to repay the full loan amount but would markedly reduce monthly payments while substantially shortening the time required to pay off the loan. It would also emphasize the fact that federal loans are an investment in the nation’s future rather than a profit-making government program.

I can imagine private student loan programs protesting, but f*ck them.

DocBarrister

[Farfromgeneva]

I don’t understand why President Biden and the Democrats aren’t choosing to make federal student loans interest free. That would still require borrowers to repay the full loan amount but would markedly reduce monthly payments while substantially shortening the time required to pay off the loan. It would also emphasize the fact that federal loans are an investment in the nation’s future rather than a profit-making government program.

I can imagine private student loan programs protesting, but f*ck them.

DocBarrister

You do understand money has a cost even to our US govt right? And frankly for years the principal amortization is much larger than the interest service right? 20yr loan, free prepayment option means avg life well inside 10yrs so avg prin repayment is more like 10%+ which interest hasn’t seen 10% since long before I was in college.

Further subsidizing cost will only push tuitions up, that exactly why we saw the last 25yrs.

[Brooklyn]

Years ago when I was a corporate bookkeeper, the company I worked for hired the sons of the executive for absentee jobs. Then they would send them to Columbia University business college. The company then deducted tuition on the corporate 1120 form and got a big write off. That's also a form of legacy/affirmative action for the wealthy. Nobody ever objects to any of that.

[DMac]

... there is a bigger picture not being considered. In the US today, if you look across all of society, the types of debt carried by the public, home mortgage as would be guessed is the #1 load on the system, by a large margin. #2 is student debt again by a wide margin is the next biggest load by $ volume. Credit Card, automobile debt, and other consumer debts are farther down the list. Some interesting facts about these debts, student loans, in terms of numbers participating are fewer than Credit Card, automobile and other consumer loans. The value of debt per participant is only rivaled by home mortgages and healthcare. The effect of this on the economy is huge. You have a large segment of society that due to student debt will be delayed from entering the home market at best and at worst barred from entry forever!!

It is also interesting that the student loan debt is the only one of the consumer debts that can't be discharged by bankruptcy. You go bankrupt because of credit card debt - the credit card balance is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of home debt, you lose the home and the debt is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of student debt, the debt is not wiped out. No matter what you are saddled with this debt!

While the borrows are not blameless neither is society. The federal government (republiCONs pushed for it) allowed for student loans to be taken to attend unscrupulous educational enterprises (grifters) (Betsy Devos' constituency). Those advertising the moon and delivering a debt trap. This is a scam designed to trap the poor and ignorant. This is not to say that some otherwise legitimate colleges and universities have also not been bad actors.

Talking with three girls on the porch of the watering hole for a couple of hours yesterday, all three up to their eyeballs in student loan debt. One $90K in debt, the other two $130K, all three 28 year old SU grads. This student loan scam is a horrible thing, none of these girls had any idea how they were ever going to pay these loans back and that debt is killing them right now. Buy a car, buy a house? Aint gonna happen, no bank is going to touch them, debt to income ratio knocks 'em outta the game. There is nfw 18-19 year olds should be given these kind of loans with no credit history or any kind of indicators of means to repay these loans (graduation and the sheepskin is not an indicator in my book). These kids should not be led down this path, no way they understand the magnitude of that debt. It's a horrible scam.
One of the three was this gal, Ranine (with a rolling guttural R which this German boy could pronounce perfectly). Pretty sharp gal (well, not sharp enough to keep herself out of $90K of debt), really enjoyed talking with her (striking features and gorgeous smile didn't hurt either). Looks as if she's had some rough days. Gonna buy the book to check it out.
https://www.amazon.com/Yumas-Smile-Rani ... 1543963579

[youthathletics]

.....to this topic at hand.

College debt forgiveness is the new social justice give me your vote ploy. Biden knew damned well it wouldn't pass the test, even Pelosi said as much.

Debt forgiveness is not the issue, that is the end game.....remember you can not control what you can not manage, and when people are strung out on debt, you can work the system to your advantage. If we want to put an emphasis on education, that is a no-brainer that the majority can get behind, but the moment you throw in the financial burden, you just lost a large percentage of the percentage willing to go in the first place, and of that group, the decision was made early on that they can not afford it.

If the US has far more (2.5x) college educated students since the 70's, it begs the question, why are we not even in the top 10 for most educated countries in the 25-35 demographic? We are ranked 5, in the 55-64 demo...behind Russia, Canada, Japan, and Israel. And by total population, we are 6th: https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... -countries

[Farfromgeneva]

... there is a bigger picture not being considered. In the US today, if you look across all of society, the types of debt carried by the public, home mortgage as would be guessed is the #1 load on the system, by a large margin. #2 is student debt again by a wide margin is the next biggest load by $ volume. Credit Card, automobile debt, and other consumer debts are farther down the list. Some interesting facts about these debts, student loans, in terms of numbers participating are fewer than Credit Card, automobile and other consumer loans. The value of debt per participant is only rivaled by home mortgages and healthcare. The effect of this on the economy is huge. You have a large segment of society that due to student debt will be delayed from entering the home market at best and at worst barred from entry forever!!

It is also interesting that the student loan debt is the only one of the consumer debts that can't be discharged by bankruptcy. You go bankrupt because of credit card debt - the credit card balance is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of home debt, you lose the home and the debt is wiped out. You go bankrupt because of student debt, the debt is not wiped out. No matter what you are saddled with this debt!

While the borrows are not blameless neither is society. The federal government (republiCONs pushed for it) allowed for student loans to be taken to attend unscrupulous educational enterprises (grifters) (Betsy Devos' constituency). Those advertising the moon and delivering a debt trap. This is a scam designed to trap the poor and ignorant. This is not to say that some otherwise legitimate colleges and universities have also not been bad actors.

Talking with three girls on the porch of the watering hole for a couple of hours yesterday, all three up to their eyeballs in student loan debt. One $90K in debt, the other two $130K, all three 28 year old SU grads. This student loan scam is a horrible thing, none of these girls had any idea how they were ever going to pay these loans back and that debt is killing them right now. Buy a car, buy a house? Aint gonna happen, no bank is going to touch them, debt to income ratio knocks 'em outta the game. There is nfw 18-19 year olds should be given these kind of loans with no credit history or any kind of indicators of means to repay these loans (graduation and the sheepskin is not an indicator in my book). These kids should not be led down this path, no way they understand the magnitude of that debt. It's a horrible scam.
One of the three was this gal, Ranine (with a rolling guttural R which this German boy could pronounce perfectly). Pretty sharp gal (well, not sharp enough to keep herself out of $90K of debt), really enjoyed talking with her (striking features and gorgeous smile didn't hurt either). Looks as if she's had some rough days. Gonna buy the book to check it out.
https://www.amazon.com/Yumas-Smile-Rani ... 1543963579

I worked yesterday. What were they doing at a bar if it was such a struggle?

[DMac]

Well, I think a lot places were closed Monday and Tuesday because of the holiday but I didn't ask them. Are you suggesting that there is no leisure time for these three as they're 24/7 slaves to their student loans?

[Farfromgeneva]

Well, I think a lot places were closed Monday and Tuesday because of the holiday but I didn't ask them. Are you suggesting that there is no leisure time for these three as they're 24/7 slaves to their student loans?

I’m suggesting I worked harder when I borrowed $80k to go to grad school and paid it off in 7yrs despite going through 18mo or so of the financial crisis just 3yrs after leaving grad school.

We have obligations and we have to pay them. When I got stiffed 13mo ago on $80k/$130k fee on a crazy project I executed on and then had some deals get sidelined a because the Fed started raising interest rates I had to dip into retirement money for a few months for various expense for my house and my kids. Take a second job, he’ll I had an MBA and was working 80hr weeks into the crisis which is like two jobs for these kids. I still do. It isn’t slavery it’s actual using what one wants in life. I never once sat in a bar bitching about my debts, let alone unpaid A/R. It’s called life. I work for myself and could take the whole week off but chose to work to move things forward yesterday, good day to get desktop work done, get ahead when not buried in calls and meetings so I cleaned up spreadsheets and put this mini flowchart presentation together on another situation. And could still find time to drink.