The Hate Directed at the LGBTQ+

[a fan]

So where does the counselor go if it is serious? Bypass the parents and straight to the State? Nope.....not advised.

There is a lot of innuendo flying around, without any cited facts on what School Counselors are 'legally/ethically' obligated to do.

I cited the same source several posts ago, my man.

And whether intentional or not, you're leaving out the ENTIRE section on confidentiality.

Section A.6.a clearly states to collaborate with all parties. And when serious A.9.A spells it out.

No. It doesn't. The word that it DOES use, and clearly uses, is RELEVANT stakeholders.

What does that "clearly" mean? It means: the Counselor gets to decide who is 'relevant' in a particular situation, placing the power in the hands of the counselor to figure it out, not the parents.

It's always a judgement call on the part of the counselor. Hence the disagreement I'm having with Tech, who believes the Parents are the customer, not the Child. Counselors' ethics as well as the law says no, sorry......student is the customer.

Read the section on Confidentiality, and you'll see I'm not just making this stuff up. You'll find sections like:

d. Are aware that even though attempts are made to obtain informed consent, it is not always possible. When needed, school counselors make decisions on students’ behalf that promote students’ welfare.

That sound like Parents are in charge?

Or how about this one:

g. Recognize their primary ethical obligation for confidentiality is to the students but balance that obligation with an understanding of parents’/guardians’ legal and inherent rights to be the guiding voice in their children’s lives.
School counselors understand the need to balance students’ ethical rights to make choices, their capacity to give consent or assent, and parental or familial legal rights and responsibilities to make decisions on their child’s behalf.


Student first. Parents, second.

Good counselors know when to inform and work with parents, and when not to. But THEY get to make that call, not parents. Although....and this is what prompted the conversation....laws are being changed in some States that are trying to turn School Counselors into the KGB, which to me? Is PLAINLY not in the best interest of kids.

And the current system, which has been in place since we were kids? It clearly served both Tech and his daughter well, as well as myself and my daughter. I have no interest in changing this setup. Kid first. Everyone else, second.

[MDlaxfan76]

Yes, when things get to a danger stage, the steps change.

But not until then. Hopefully rare.

[youthathletics]

Not intentional...

Read the section on Confidentiality, and you'll see I'm not just making this stuff up. You'll find sections like:

d. Are aware that even though attempts are made to obtain informed consent, it is not always possible. When needed, school counselors make decisions on students’ behalf that promote students’ welfare.

That sound like Parents are in charge?

That could be a modicum of things, like there may be no parents....children of the state, already in the system for other reasons, there is a history of concern WRT the parents, signs of abuse.. etc.

Section A.6.a clearly states to collaborate with all parties. And when serious A.9.A spells it out.

No. It doesn't. The word that it DOES use, and clearly uses, is RELEVANT stakeholders.

What does that "clearly" mean? It means: the Counselor gets to decide who is 'relevant' in a particular situation, placing the power in the hands of the counselor to figure it out, not the parents.

It's always a judgement call on the part of the counselor. Hence the disagreement I'm having with Tech, who believes the Parents are the customer, not the Child. Counselors' ethics as well as the law says no, sorry......student is the customer.

Question, How would the counselor know if the parents should or should not be notified if they know nothing about them.....just b/c little johnnie says don't tell my mommy and daddy?

I believe we are all mostly on the same page; common sense prevails. However, as it applies to the theme of this thread, parents and or legal guardians should be notified based on the outcome of the initial consult, otherwise liability is on the counselor/county/school system if something serious or legal gets involved thereafter.

Hypothetical:
A 6th grade boy tells their counselor that they believe they may be transgender, they admit to kissing other boys in the bathroom and like it when other boys touch them, no other adults are aware of this at this point.... How do you handle this as a counselor?

[DMac]

I don't think tech and youth are wrong in their areas/reasons for concern. This is not to say I disagree with you, a fan, but you're real quick to put all of your trust in these counselors. Ethics? What kind does your (collectively) school counselor have? What does a parent know about them? How good are they? How much trust did the gymnasts parents put in Dr. Nassar? Definitely room for concern here, kids'll undoubtedly lie/fib/exaggerate/twist stories to counselors too.

[a fan]

Question, How would the counselor know if the parents should or should not be notified if they know nothing about them.....just b/c little johnnie says don't tell my mommy and daddy?

Years of training and experience, and the very code of ethics you just cited.

This is the problem with the "the parents are in charge of Public Schools" nonsense we've had, and I'm borrowing parlance here----crammed down our throats. These folks think that they're on even footing with paid, educated, and experienced professionals. They're not.

I believe we are all mostly on the same page; common sense prevails. However, as it applies to the theme of this thread, parents and or legal guardians should be notified based on the outcome of the initial consult.....(snip)

The law and code of ethics disagree with you, YA.

It's a judgement call for the Counselor, YA. And yes, their common sense coupled their professional training should prevail.

(snip)....otherwise liability is on the counselor/county/school system if something serious or legal gets involved thereafter.

Depends on the State. But that's why school districts carry insurance. Sports Coaches make judgement calls that can be life changing, too. You want them liable, too? This new "the parents are in charge of Public Schools" group sure thinks so. You wanna get sued because Johnny didn't start? Or violated a team rule that had consequences that were ENTIRELY your judgement call as a Coach?

Hypothetical:
A 6th grade boy tells their counselor that they believe they may be transgender, they admit to kissing other boys in the bathroom and like it when other boys touch them, no other adults are aware of this at this point.... How do you handle this as a counselor?

Haven't the slightest idea. But then I'm not a trained professional counselor, my man. Which is, in my view, the whole point here.

Some folks want to take that power away, and put Parents in front of Children. That's a hard pass from me, for all the reasons given.

Question right back at you: if you're that counselor, and you are FORCED to tell parents about that meeting? And the kid gets the sh(t beat out of him, and thrown out of the house.....you good with that outcome?

Ever hear of the work Bea Arthur did to provide for this very situation? I have ZERO interest in the State stepping in, and making more 15 year old kids homeless. Thanks, but no thanks.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bea-arth ... 117627e650

[a fan]

I don't think tech and youth are wrong in their areas/reasons for concern. This is not to say I disagree with you, a fan, but you're real quick to put all of your trust in these counselors.

Well, A, I have benefitted from them, and so has my family....

And B. What's the alternative?

You wanna vet the counselors more, ask for more education/training etc? I'm 100% fine with that. Raise the bar. They're generally HORRIBLY underpaid.

My production assistant's wife is a HS Counselor, holds an MA, 20 years of experience.

[Farfromgeneva]

May be, maybe not. Obviously we've reached an impasse. Basically within the context of public school, you want to empower children and I want to empower parents. (tax-paying parents I'd add)

Some HS students work and pay taxes. I know I did.

To be clear: you want to change the current system, and the ONLY way to do that is to pass laws. You can't compel a professional to violate their code of ethics. And their code of ethics includes following the law. Therefore changing the laws are the only way to get them to serve parents first, and children second.

And I'm telling you, that if you pass these laws, the coach I mentioned will now be on the hook to tell parents EVERYTHING. They don't get to decide for themselves what they do and don't tell you.....or risk firing, lawsuits, and in some cases that folks are trying to put on the book....criminal prosecution.

The current system protects the student in every State I'm aware of today. Respectfully, you were clearly a great and involved parent. Not every kid gets that, tech. Picture that, and walk through what you are asking. I was a smart enough kid in HS to ask counselors what they had to report to my parents. There is NO WAY I would open up in that setting if I knew the counselor would legally compel them to rat me out to my parents.

THAT is why I don't like what you're suggesting we do, Tech. Your proposed laws (again, that's the only path to get what you're asking for here) will make it so that kids won't use counselors. Because the FIRST thing out of a Counselor's mouth in session #1 is: "I'm legally compelled to tell your parents about every word you utter in here".

Right, I meant "example" not analogy. All of this is beyond a coach's purview and not relevant, IMO. If a coach senses a kid is in trouble, the coach needs to share that with a school counselor.

Again, I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. If you pass the laws you're asking for, Coaches will have to announce on the first day of practice that they're legally compelled to tell their parents every private, non-lacrosse utterance. Think about what will happen the first summer after your law passes: School District lawyers will brief EVERYONE who works at the school. And lay out what makes them liable.

This happened after the shoddily written "Don't Say Gay" law in Florida......lawyers come in, and brief employees as to what they can and can't say. Sadly, that law was written by monkeys with typewriters, so the message was: "we truly have no idea what you can and can't say, and we'll get back to you later"......and never got back to them. It's a mess.

Who would know? I trust that the counselor and psychologist shared all relevant info with me. More than one time, I was contacted re something I already knew about.

The good news, whether you agree or not, is that my approach/thinking on this has worked for us.

Gotta run... busy weekend.

Tells me that you were and are a wonderful parent, and that the professional felt they weren't violating their code by working with you and your daughter as a team, sharing some of the information they received from her. Not every kid gets parents like you, and I'm guessing you know that. It's good to remember that when you're asking for sweeping laws, imho. I'm hoping to be as good of a parent as you with my own daughter.

That said, the odds that they told you EVERYTHING your daughter said is close to zero.

Schools are funded by a mix of property, sales and income taxes so everyone pays in effectively. In some states we could argue home renters don’t get a say where the property tax funding component is high by the argument that tax paying is a factor. In most NE states it’s over 50% property tax funded. Georgia by comparison is 30% property tax funded.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indica ... ol-revenue

[tech37]

Tells me that you were and are a wonderful parent, and that the professional felt they weren't violating their code by working with you and your daughter as a team, sharing some of the information they received from her. Not every kid gets parents like you, and I'm guessing you know that. It's good to remember that when you're asking for sweeping laws, imho. I'm hoping to be as good of a parent as you with my own daughter.
Well that's very kind of you to say, but honestly, many times I went with gut instinct only. I'm certain I didn't handle everything as well as could have and certainly not according to current child psychology orthodoxy!

A couple other things helped immensely... a child therapist outside of school and the fact that we moved to a small school district for HS (it's not for everyone of course but picture a public school that feels and operates like a private school...15 kids in her graduating class). That way I had more access and she got more attention, whereas she could easily have fallen through the cracks in the much larger school system we had been in.

Most of all, be grateful for your wife and their involvement, especially if mom is very invested in your child's education.

That said, the odds that they told you EVERYTHING your daughter said is close to zero.
As mentioned, I'm sure I heard everything that mattered.

[a fan]

Well that's very nice of you to say, but honestly, many times I went with gut instinct only. I'm certain I didn't handle everything as well as could have and certainly not according to current child psychology orthodoxy!

A couple other things helped immensely... a child therapist outside of school and the fact that we moved to a small school district for HS (it's not for everyone of course but picture a public school that feels and operates like a private school...15 kids in her graduating class). That way I had more access and she got more attention, whereas she could easily have fallen through the cracks in the much larger school system we had been in.

Even more proof what a great parent you are. Cool stuff to hear, tech.

Most of all, be grateful for your wife and their involvement, especially if mom is very invested in your child's education.

Amen to that. I'm particularly lucky because her field gives her insights that I don't have, outside or reading parenting books and, yes, going with my gut. Always marry "up", and out of your league. I'm still toiling in the minors.

As mentioned, I'm sure I heard everything that mattered.

Yes. And that was because we gave the power of choice to these professionals. The vast majority call balls and strikes just fine, and work with and inform parents just fine.

Sometimes, the parents/guardians aren't acting in the child's best interest. That's why the State gives trained professionals the power to call balls and strikes. As a taxpayer? I have no interest in giving the evil people in this world more leeway to do their worst to children. Have heard FAR too many stories from friends about these sorts of childhoods.

[youthathletics]

Have not heard the stats about trans in jail before....: https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/sta ... 40928?s=20

[MDlaxfan76]

Have not heard the stats about trans in jail before....: https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/sta ... 40928?s=20

I'd like to see the source of his "data".
The UK "study"?
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/41 ... 72431.html

I wonder what the percentage of rapists and sexual assaulters are trans?

[NattyBohChamps04]

No no no, let's trust some random dude who "did the research" vs. actual data.

YA, please enlighten us on the stats, and what percentage of trans people are out there raping and abusing vs getting abused and murdered too. And also give us the percentage of Catholic priests involved in abuse allegations from '50-'02 in comparison. You know, for fun.

[youthathletics]

Have not heard the stats about trans in jail before....: https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/sta ... 40928?s=20

I'd like to see the source of his "data".
The UK "study"?
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/41 ... 72431.html

I wonder what the percentage of rapists and sexual assaulters are trans?

When I heard his talk to the school board I had never heard these stats either...which was my comment in the post. Posted it thinking others may have heard or it was discussed elsewhere.

[MDlaxfan76]

Have not heard the stats about trans in jail before....: https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/sta ... 40928?s=20

I'd like to see the source of his "data".
The UK "study"?
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/41 ... 72431.html

I wonder what the percentage of rapists and sexual assaulters are trans?

When I heard his talk to the school board I had never heard these stats either...which was my comment in the post. Posted it thinking others may have heard or it was discussed elsewhere.

me too, which is why I used google.

I had to dig and found this very small 'study' and then critique.

Most of what I found was about the issue of keeping trans women in the men's jails, and the horrific level of abuse they go through in there.

Back to this guy waving "data' "proof" ala Joe McCarthy.

My wife and I happened to watch the movie Denial last evening, the true story of the libel case brought in England by self-taught British "military historian" David Irving against Penguin books and American Professor of Holocaust Studies Deborah Lipstadt. Lipstadt had called Irving a Holocaust denier and Irving claimed libel, seeking more publicity for his theories that the Holocaust was a fiction of Jews to gain sympathy and financial gain. In front of laughing and cheering crowds in the '90's, Irving had claimed Hitler had never ordered the mass extermination of Jews, there was no systematic process of doing so, and that those in camps during the war died of typhus, not gassing. Particularly big laughs and cheers when describing the motivations of Jews... He focused specifically on Auschwitz, saying that it had NOT been an extermination camp and that it was up to Holocaust "believers" to prove it was. In England, the burden of proof is on the defendant to prove their "libel" had been true, not on the plaintiff to prove they're not...as in America.

Turns out Irving had massively falsified his data and analysis in order to fit his virulent racist and anti-Semitic ideology.

Good movie. Amazon Prime.

[DMac]

Trans prisoners, something that should be high on all of our lists of concerns.

[Matnum PI]

This morning's The Daily Podcast was interesting.

[MDlaxfan76]

Trans prisoners, something that should be high on all of our lists of concerns.

DMac, that's what I found when googling trying to find data on trans people in jail...I eventually found what the jerk in the clip was claiming and its refutation.

But I'd never heard about the issue of where trans women are placed in jail...not "shoved down our throats"....not something "high on all of of our lists of concerns"...

High on the list of concerns of trans people in jail though. Serious issue for them, right? For our prison system?

But hey, if we added up all the assaults on trans people for being trans versus the assaults by trans people on non trans...what do you think the proportion would be?

After all, these folks in town meetings seem to think that trans are a huge assault threat that we should all get very worked up about...

[Farfromgeneva]

Trans prisoners, something that should be high on all of our lists of concerns.

Who brought it up? What was the agenda?

[DMac]

This morning's The Daily Podcast was interesting.

Yup, pretty interesting, religious beliefs wins this round.

[DMac]

Trans prisoners, something that should be high on all of our lists of concerns.

Who brought it up? What was the agenda?

Look up the thread a little bit.