The Biden - Harris Era.

[MDlaxfan76]

At least Biden tries to govern, plan and execute policies, and old, out of date stuff like that. On the other side there is Comer, Andy Biggs, Boebert, Greene, Santos, and the invertebrate Speaker, doing literally nothing but perform and prop up the electoral prospects of a moron. Cheney says the root problem is that the country is electing idiots; she's not talking about Democrats.

After how the Dems, MSM, FBI/DOJ have comported themselves over the last few years, what would you expect?

The first part of your sentence is silly, of course, but I expect a political party to attempt to govern. Roll out proposed bills, negotiate in good faith aimed at consensus. The GOP appears to have stopped doing this.

Ha! I'm being silly... You cast blame in one direction only. That's beyond silly.

Tell me the things for which you blame Democrats. Maybe we’ll agree on some of them.

oh please... I've stated many times that there is plenty of blame to go around and bad actors on both sides.

How about we cut to the chase and not waste time/effort and avoid getting to the point where you say nasty things?

If you care to, you go ahead and list what you blame Dems for. With your admitted bias, it should be a short list, if any at all.

That's quite the cop out tech.

[tech37]

You don't come off as "centered," at least not on fanlax.

That's because on many issues, you're to the right of me. And like all partisans, you think anyone that's one step to the left of you is a liberal, and there's no such thing as the middle.
Ha! unreal... no, it's because you rarely if ever take the libs, progs, Dems on here to task for positions or sh!t they say but are super quick to jump on anyone to the right of you, you don't happen to agree with. Don't believe I'm the first to mention it.

Mocking you? That's revisionist history. As I recall, you were the mocker as some of us optimistically, wanted to see/hoped for, higher GDP #s based on the new admin and their policies.

I'm not revising doodly. You told me to "be patient", and asked how I could possibly know that a massive tax cut wouldn't pay for itself? My response then as it is now is the same: Math. That's how I know.

Guess who was right? We're now blowing more on interest paid on debt than we are on educating our children. Neat. I'm shocked that cutting taxes and increasing Federal spending by over 60% in four years didn't "pay for itself".

Sorry man, but you didn't want to hear 1+1=2. And if you're not a partisan? Where's this "optimism" of yours when it comes to Biden's policies? It's nowhere to be found...replaced, instead, by skepticism that the Infrastructure bill will add infrastructure. This is your idea of centrism?
Haha!... there you go with your mocking condescension, thanks for proving my point.

Sorry, if you didn't notice, a lot of sh!t has gone down since I was last optimistic about anything re govt or politics. Hopefully that could/will change, we'll see.

[tech37]

I also have to agree with those who say, the weakness/stupidity shown with the impulsive/reckless Afghan departure, emboldened Putin to move on Ukraine.

Alright, I'll bite: if this is your idea.....tell me how this math of yours works. What is it that Putin was thinking before Biden pulled us out of Afghanistan?

Was he thinking "boy, that Biden is a tough guy, and if I invade Ukraine, he'll surely send US Troops"??

And then what was he thinking after we left Afghanistan that changed his calculus to invade Ukraine.

I really want to hear this, because this Afghanistan=Ukraine theory has been sold as truth by right wing media for months now, and I want you to explain what you think happened in Putin's mind.

Well a fan, if it's been "sold as truth by right wing media for months now," an informed guy like you must know all the details. What's the point of going on and on about it?

[a fan]

Ha! unreal... no, it's because you rarely if ever take the libs, progs, Dems on here to task for positions or sh!t they say but are super quick to jump on anyone to the right of you, you don't happen to agree with. Don't believe I'm the first to mention it

That's YOUR interpretation.

Want the reality?

We don't have REAL conservatives on the national level anymore. They're gone. So the problem there? I'm to the RIGHT of these *ssclowns. I'm hitting them from the RIGHT. You aren't paying attention to what I actually write, and ASSUME that because I'm criticizing the Republican party, it HAS to be because I'm to the left of them. This is wrong, sorry. I can, and HAVE shown you repeatedly that I'm to the right of both you, and Republicans in Federal leadership.

Want a list? Happy to give one. Again.

Haha!... there you go with your mocking condescension, thanks for proving my point.

You think that telling me that I'm labelling everything and implying you aren't isn't condescending?

I returned your fire, my man. Pay a little more attention to how YOU come across here. I'm HAPPY to turn it down, and I have done so with OS. I PREFER that. Want to play nice? YOU start. Or, as I offered, I can leave you alone entirely. But you don't get to throw around a patronizing attitude and expect me to not return the favor, sorry.

You MOCKED me for telling you that it was 100% certain that the tax cuts wouldn't pay for itself. So here I am, returning fire.

And YOU interpret this to mean I'm condescending.....while ignoring that YOU were the one who mocked me in our discussion of tax cuts.

Protip: tax cuts have NEVER paid for themselves. What idiots like Laffer do is explode spending in addition to the cuts. Remember the analogy I gave you? This tax cut coupled with spending game is like Tech coming home from work, and taking out a $10k loan, and then arriving at home and gleefully telling Mrs. Tech "I got a $10k raise".....and then basks in the glow of "the economic activity increase" as he blows the $10k.

Forgetting, of course, that he has to pay the freaking $10K back, plus interest.

So that "economic stimulus" you cheered on? Are you sitting down?

We paid $476 billion in freaking interest payments last year. All because fake American conservatives don't want to pay for the cr*p we get.

That's now TWICE what we spent on our kid's education. THAT is your tax cut, coupled with massive spending increases. And the tax cut, as I keep saying, is now on Biden. Biden "forgot" to remove that tax cut...which, again, is yet another reason why real progressives hate Biden, and know he's in the bag for the 1%ers.

Sorry, if you didn't notice, a lot of sh!t has gone down since I was last optimistic about anything re govt or politics.

Like it was all sunshine and roses before Trump arrived? Okay.

[a fan]

I also have to agree with those who say, the weakness/stupidity shown with the impulsive/reckless Afghan departure, emboldened Putin to move on Ukraine.

Alright, I'll bite: if this is your idea.....tell me how this math of yours works. What is it that Putin was thinking before Biden pulled us out of Afghanistan?

Was he thinking "boy, that Biden is a tough guy, and if I invade Ukraine, he'll surely send US Troops"??

And then what was he thinking after we left Afghanistan that changed his calculus to invade Ukraine.

I really want to hear this, because this Afghanistan=Ukraine theory has been sold as truth by right wing media for months now, and I want you to explain what you think happened in Putin's mind.

Well a fan, if it's been "sold as truth by right wing media for months now," an informed guy like you must know all the details. What's the point of going on and on about it?

You're telling me you didn't notice that this claim of yours didn't originate in Chez Tech?

You can't take ten seconds and spell out what Putin was thinking before and after we left Afghanistan, and back up your claim?

[tech37]

I also have to agree with those who say, the weakness/stupidity shown with the impulsive/reckless Afghan departure, emboldened Putin to move on Ukraine.

Alright, I'll bite: if this is your idea.....tell me how this math of yours works. What is it that Putin was thinking before Biden pulled us out of Afghanistan?

Was he thinking "boy, that Biden is a tough guy, and if I invade Ukraine, he'll surely send US Troops"??

And then what was he thinking after we left Afghanistan that changed his calculus to invade Ukraine.

I really want to hear this, because this Afghanistan=Ukraine theory has been sold as truth by right wing media for months now, and I want you to explain what you think happened in Putin's mind.

Well a fan, if it's been "sold as truth by right wing media for months now," an informed guy like you must know all the details. What's the point of going on and on about it?

You're telling me you didn't notice that this claim of yours didn't originate in Chez Tech?

You can't take ten seconds and spell out what Putin was thinking before and after we left Afghanistan, and back up your claim?

First of all a fan, I didn't make a "claim." Go back and read. I said I agreed with others who think or say, so obviously it's not an original idea on my part and I never said otherwise.

Since you care about this much more and are most likely more informed about this than I am, I'll pose a hypothetical question. If we had not left Afghan in the manner (helter skelter/chaotic) we did and still held Bagram with a sufficient force, do you think Putin would have had second thoughts and not acted on his continued threats of invasion?

Already this probably makes little sense and will hit the vortex since the premise of my hypothetical is based on my opinion of how Biden rushed out of Afghan, which you disagree with.

[MDlaxfan76]

I also have to agree with those who say, the weakness/stupidity shown with the impulsive/reckless Afghan departure, emboldened Putin to move on Ukraine.

Alright, I'll bite: if this is your idea.....tell me how this math of yours works. What is it that Putin was thinking before Biden pulled us out of Afghanistan?

Was he thinking "boy, that Biden is a tough guy, and if I invade Ukraine, he'll surely send US Troops"??

And then what was he thinking after we left Afghanistan that changed his calculus to invade Ukraine.

I really want to hear this, because this Afghanistan=Ukraine theory has been sold as truth by right wing media for months now, and I want you to explain what you think happened in Putin's mind.

Well a fan, if it's been "sold as truth by right wing media for months now," an informed guy like you must know all the details. What's the point of going on and on about it?

You're telling me you didn't notice that this claim of yours didn't originate in Chez Tech?

You can't take ten seconds and spell out what Putin was thinking before and after we left Afghanistan, and back up your claim?

nope, all hit and run...
never a direct answer to a straight question.

[a fan]

If we had not left Afghan in the manner (helter skelter/chaotic) we did and still held Bagram with a sufficient force, do you think Putin would have had second thoughts and not acted on his continued threats of invasion?

My answer is that it's patently clear to me that at no point did that have a thing to do with Putin's decision to invade.

And for the life of me, I haven't the foggiest idea why you think one has ANYTHING to do with the other. Can't even guess.

Why won't you spell it out, so I can understand your reasoning?



The reason he chose to invade is painfully obvious to me. And what actually happened reinforces my belief.

[MDlaxfan76]

I also have to agree with those who say, the weakness/stupidity shown with the impulsive/reckless Afghan departure, emboldened Putin to move on Ukraine.

Alright, I'll bite: if this is your idea.....tell me how this math of yours works. What is it that Putin was thinking before Biden pulled us out of Afghanistan?

Was he thinking "boy, that Biden is a tough guy, and if I invade Ukraine, he'll surely send US Troops"??

And then what was he thinking after we left Afghanistan that changed his calculus to invade Ukraine.

I really want to hear this, because this Afghanistan=Ukraine theory has been sold as truth by right wing media for months now, and I want you to explain what you think happened in Putin's mind.

Well a fan, if it's been "sold as truth by right wing media for months now," an informed guy like you must know all the details. What's the point of going on and on about it?

You're telling me you didn't notice that this claim of yours didn't originate in Chez Tech?

You can't take ten seconds and spell out what Putin was thinking before and after we left Afghanistan, and back up your claim?

First of all a fan, I didn't make a "claim." Go back and read. I said I agreed with others who think or say, so obviously it's not an original idea on my part and I never said otherwise.

Since you care about this much more and are most likely more informed about this than I am, I'll pose a hypothetical question. If we had not left Afghan in the manner (helter skelter/chaotic) we did and still held Bagram with a sufficient force, do you think Putin would have had second thoughts and not acted on his continued threats of invasion?

Already this probably makes little sense and will hit the vortex since the premise of my hypothetical is based on my opinion of how Biden rushed out of Afghan, which you disagree with.

Regardless of whether one agrees with the characterization of "rushed" or not, clearly it was a complete withdrawal and the Taliban took over swiftly.

But answer a fan's direct questions above.

I'd be interested as well in the logic...it's been clear as mud when I've heard right wing media suggesting it. Maybe you can clarify.

At least as to the logic that makes sense to you...in specific.

[tech37]

If we had not left Afghan in the manner (helter skelter/chaotic) we did and still held Bagram with a sufficient force, do you think Putin would have had second thoughts and not acted on his continued threats of invasion?

My answer is that it's patently clear to me that at no point did that have a thing to do with Putin's decision to invade.

Huh. Well we'll need to agree to disagree I guess. To me it seems like common sense. IMO it showed absolute weakness and incompetence and presented opportunity. If I recall correctly Biden and his admin then were inconsistent with their responses/messaging to Putin's build up and threats of invasion, showing more weakness.

What should have happened and maybe you'll agree, is the Biden admin should have done everything humanly possible to defuse the situation through diplomacy and concessions/compromises for both sides as threats of invasion were being made.

[a fan]

If we had not left Afghan in the manner (helter skelter/chaotic) we did and still held Bagram with a sufficient force, do you think Putin would have had second thoughts and not acted on his continued threats of invasion?

My answer is that it's patently clear to me that at no point did that have a thing to do with Putin's decision to invade.

Huh. Well we'll need to agree to disagree I guess. To me it seems like common sense. IMO it showed absolute weakness and incompetence and presented opportunity. If I recall correctly Biden and his admin then were inconsistent with their responses/messaging to Putin's build up and threats of invasion, showing more weakness.

If this is what you think, then you're on the hook for explaining why Putin didn't invade under Trump.

Because you do remember what Trump's policy was toward "stupid wars", right? America First ring a bell?

Trump gave Putin the green light to invade. Still, Putin did nothing.

What should have happened and maybe you'll agree, is the Biden admin should have done everything humanly possible to defuse the situation through diplomacy and concessions/compromises for both sides as threats of invasion were being made.

Yes, he should have, like Obama did. What did he do, instead?

Biden promised more arms and training to Ukraine, bolstering the arms and training that Trump sent a few years earlier. THAT is what prompted the invasion.....Putin invaded before it would be impossible to invade, Tech. Biden's move was the last straw.

THAT makes perfect logical sense. And it also meets your goal of blaming Biden.

And yep, I could be wrong. But I'm sorry, there's NO WAY Afghanistan had anything to do with Putin's choice. That's American right wing "Biden is bad" logic. And hilariously, now that Biden has stood up to Putin and is clearly humiliating him? The Right is STILL whining and complaining about Biden kicking Putin's butt.

And reminder, I do not/did not support Biden or Trump in their choice to arm Ukraine, and get us into yet another intractable mess with tons of unforeseen consequences. I was with Obama, and his choice of diplomacy and economic consequences for Putin's stupidity. And as you'll recall, the American Right mocked Obama for being soft.

[tech37]

Trump gave Putin the green light to invade. Still, Putin did nothing.

Trump sent lethal arms to Ukraine. How is that a green light?

[a fan]

Trump gave Putin the green light to invade. Still, Putin did nothing.

Trump sent lethal arms to Ukraine. How is that a green light?

And Biden had cleared even MORE arms and training to Ukraine. How is that a green light?

See the problem? Respectfully, you're letting your hatred of Biden get in the way of your logic.


Putin invaded before Ukraine was, as OS likes to put it, a porcupine. Clear as day that's what did it. Put yourself in Putin's shoes....if had ANY interest in invading....wouldn't "the Americans are giving them more and more arms" play into your invasion decision math? To me, it's obvious his decision was: it's either invade before Biden sends more stuff, or never.

And again, that's on Biden for promising more arms, building on Trump's mistake (my opinion) to arm Ukraine when Obama didn't.

[MDlaxfan76]

Trump gave Putin the green light to invade. Still, Putin did nothing.

Trump sent lethal arms to Ukraine. How is that a green light?

You're probably right, those few Stingers were a big red light. And Trump obviously was telling Putin to back off in those private meetings he had with him, no note takers for the US side...of course. He's a tough guy, America First.

So, obviously in private he was a tough guy with Putin, while in public he praised him, said in front of him that he believed Putin over his own US intelligence people, including those he appointed.



I don't agree with a fan that the few arms we provided to Ukraine, whether under Trump or Biden, precipitated Putin's thinking that an invasion would be successful, easily, but much harder if he waited, and so Ukraine should not have been supported.

But I do think that under Trump, Putin was thinking that he could achieve his objectives of a greatly weakened and fractured NATO without a direct invasion and likewise that Trump would help him undermine the legitimacy and support for democracy in Ukraine so that he could re-install a puppet instead of Zelensky.

That calculus did change with Biden's election and it was pretty apparent quickly that the Biden admin would bring the NATO states back into alignment and mutual commitment. But that was still in early stages.

It was also clear that the Zelensky government was making progress with corruption reforms, was standing tough in the eastern fighting against the Russian backed and armed "separatists", so it wasn't likely to fall apart.

The trajectory of Ukraine was strengthening its ties with the West and democracy, and that was understood (As Salty tells us), as contrary to Putin's and the Russian "nationalist" right's views of Russian destiny.

So, better sooner than later as there was nothing on the horizon for Putin to think would make his ambitions more likely otherwise.

I don't think Biden's overruling his military advisors in making a firm decision to leave Afghanistan, as previously promised by Trump, factored at all into the decision to invade Ukraine. Biden's resolve on that matter would have been seen by Putin as an exercise of control by the American leader, uncowed by military. That's the Russian mindset. Control and power.

That said, Putin has long believed that the West is feckless and "morally weak", and, moreover, would not only be scared to put their own lives on the line for Ukraine, but also that they would be afraid of the economic effects of trying to sanction Russia in response. Too dependent on Russian energy, etc.

Correct on the first, but big miscalculation on the second.

And of course the miscalculation that the Russian military would swiftly take Kyiv and the war would be over before the West could do anything about it.

However, the Biden Admin sussed out the coming attack and decided to loudly warn the world of the coming invasion, sharing their intelligence with allies.

In response, Putin lied to the world about his intentions, expecting that the "surprise" attack would make objections swiftly moot.

Trump called it "genius".

He was wrong.

[tech37]

Trump gave Putin the green light to invade. Still, Putin did nothing.

Trump sent lethal arms to Ukraine. How is that a green light?

And Biden had cleared even MORE arms and training to Ukraine. How is that a green light?
And all the more reason to possibly be about the perceived comparative strength of the men and their admins rather than arms build up.

See the problem? Respectfully, you're letting your hatred of Biden get in the way of your logic.
Maybe but I don't like Trump either.

Putin invaded before Ukraine was, as OS likes to put it, a porcupine. Clear as day that's what did it. Put yourself in Putin's shoes....if had ANY interest in invading....wouldn't "the Americans are giving them more and more arms" play into your invasion decision math? To me, it's obvious his decision was: it's either invade before Biden sends more stuff, or never.
Maybe so.

And again, that's on Biden for promising more arms, building on Trump's mistake (my opinion) to arm Ukraine when Obama didn't.

[a fan]

And all the more reason to possibly be about the perceived comparative strength of the men and their admins rather than arms build up.

If that's true, and that's what you think (the ol' trope that all Dems are weak, and all R's are tough guys) the problem now is: looks like both Republicans and Putin got that call REALLY wrong.

You are assuming that Putin and his team views things like a Republican voter, where Biden is weak and bad.

The truth is, we've got decades of evidence that says otherwise. For example, Biden voted to attack Iraq. That sound like someone who doesn't believe in intervention to you?

Now how is it that I knew how Biden would react to this invasion, but Putin didn't? Sorry man, I'm not that smart.

Putin wasn't reacting to who was POTUS. He was reacting to more arms and training headed Ukraine's way.

[tech37]

And all the more reason to possibly be about the perceived comparative strength of the men and their admins rather than arms build up.

If that's true, and that's what you think (the ol' trope that all Dems are weak, and all R's are tough guys) the problem now is: looks like both Republicans and Putin got that call REALLY wrong.
I don't know that it's "true" but is a reasonable assumption. That's what I "think," thank you.

You are assuming that Putin and his team views things like a Republican voter, where Biden is weak and bad.
Yeah, guess he didn't hear Biden's Corn Pop story.

The truth is, we've got decades of evidence that says otherwise. For example, Biden voted to attack Iraq. That sound like someone who doesn't believe in intervention to you?
Biden's been all over the F'ing place. Who knows...

Now how is it that I knew how Biden would react to this invasion, but Putin didn't? Sorry man, I'm not that smart.
No you are... you the man a fan.

Putin wasn't reacting to who was POTUS. He was reacting to more arms and training headed Ukraine's way.
Maybe so.

[old salt]

And again, that's on Biden for promising more arms, building on Trump's mistake (my opinion) to arm Ukraine when Obama didn't.

So to play out your what if. Follow through on your theory. Had Trump & Biden withheld lethal military aid, a la Biden, & Russia's invasion succeeded, taken Kyiv & toppled Zelensky. Would that have been a more favorable outcome. Part or all of Ukraine annexed back into Russia ?

[a fan]

And again, that's on Biden for promising more arms, building on Trump's mistake (my opinion) to arm Ukraine when Obama didn't.

So to play out your what it. Follow through on your theory. Had Trump & Biden withheld lethal military aid, a la Biden, & Russia's invasion succeeded, taken Kyiv & toppled Zelensky. Would that have been a more favorable outcome. Part or all of Ukraine annexed back into Russia ?

If you're asking would I prefer that Putin invade? My answer is no.

If you're asking: am I ok with the consequences of not giving Ukraine Military aid? The answer is a big, fat, unqualified yes.

Does that answer your question?

[old salt]

And again, that's on Biden for promising more arms, building on Trump's mistake (my opinion) to arm Ukraine when Obama didn't.

So to play out your what it. Follow through on your theory. Had Trump & Biden withheld lethal military aid, a la Biden, & Russia's invasion succeeded, taken Kyiv & toppled Zelensky. Would that have been a more favorable outcome. Part or all of Ukraine annexed back into Russia ?

If you're asking would I prefer that Putin invade? My answer is no.

If you're asking: am I ok with the consequences of not giving Ukraine Military aid? The answer is a big, fat, unqualified yes.

Does that answer your question?

You can't uncouple the two. Since Russia did invade & still holds 20% of Ukraine, do you still think Trump & Biden should not have provided the military aid which enabled the Ukrainians to thwart the initial invasion.