The Biden - Harris Era.

[Seacoaster(1)]

At least Biden tries to govern, plan and execute policies, and old, out of date stuff like that. On the other side there is Comer, Andy Biggs, Boebert, Greene, Santos, and the invertebrate Speaker, doing literally nothing but perform and prop up the electoral prospects of a moron. Cheney says the root problem is that the country is electing idiots; she's not talking about Democrats.

After how the Dems, MSM, FBI/DOJ have comported themselves over the last few years, what would you expect?

The first part of your sentence is silly, of course, but I expect a political party to attempt to govern. Roll out proposed bills, negotiate in good faith aimed at consensus. The GOP appears to have stopped doing this.

Ha! I'm being silly... You cast blame in one direction only. That's beyond silly.

Tell me the things for which you blame Democrats. Maybe we’ll agree on some of them.

[a fan]

A lot of generalizations here a fan. Some progressives may not like some policies but deep in their souls, love him, for the very reasons above (their useful idiot)

You're doing that thing that partisans do, where you pretend there's no American center. Millions of us are in the center.....which is what makes it the center in the first place. Actual progressives? They know Biden is a Corporate Dem, and a Neo-Con, and can't stand that he's sold out the working class. Ask one. They'll be happy to tell you, as NattyBoh just did. Do you think it's a mistake that Biden left Trump's massive Corporate Tax giveaway in place? BTW.....remember mocking me for telling you that it's impossible for Trump's cut to "pay for itself", and that I needed to be patient?

"most Americans who aren't utter morons"? Maybe. Let's say Trump survives the primary and runs against Kamala... a lot of so-called "morons" will be born over night in that case.

There's a difference between holding your nose and voting Trump...and supporting Trump.

"Even Old Salt"? I said more than once years ago that Trump should not be allowed to run again. Going way back, I said if Trump breaks any laws and they can prove it, fine by me if he's in the slammer.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

I believe you. But I also remember you heckling posters and claiming they had TDS when we complained about Trump's behaviors.

Maybe.

Libertarians are now so far gone that they don't support an infrastructure bill? Okay. That means we're F'ed long term.

I agree on Ukraine and have said as much on here.

Do you think Biden Admin's zeal to destroy Putin has anything to do with the botched Afghan pullout? Great way to save face, look tough in eyes of world leaders after such a disaster?

I think that anyone rational thinks that Biden did just fine in the pullout.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Old Salt, a man with military experience, and he couldn't give me an answer:

Give me your plan for pulling out of Afghanistan quickly with fewer than 13 American deaths.

Now before you answer, remember the math: in the last five years previous to the 2021 withdrawal, we had 15, 16, 23, and 11 deaths. So that means that if you take your time, and stay for 12 months past Biden's 2021 withdrawal, you'll have 16.25 deaths.

Good luck beating Biden's 13 deaths. Want OS's response? His response was: don't leave. Which means he concedes the 16.25 deaths per year in perpetuity. Which also means that Biden's evac was better by a mile.

Let's hear your withdrawal plan. Did you notice how many KIA's we had in 2022, and 2023? Big fat, beautiful ZERO.

I'm OVERJOYED that Biden got us out of there, after Obama failed to pull us out the day after we popped Bin Laden----which was the ENTIRE REASON we went in in the first place. Mission accomplished, get the F out. Obama could have both gotten us out, AND given our troops closure and the feeling of a finished job.

Again, maybe.

This is in response to the Chip Act. So this means you prefer that we continue to be dependent on computer Chips from Taiwan and other places. Do I have that right?

[jhu72]

A lot of generalizations here a fan. Some progressives may not like some policies but deep in their souls, love him, for the very reasons above (their useful idiot)

You're doing that thing that partisans do, where you pretend there's no American center. Millions of us are in the center.....which is what makes it the center in the first place. Actual progressives? They know Biden is a Corporate Dem, and a Neo-Con, and can't stand that he's sold out the working class. Ask one. They'll be happy to tell you, as NattyBoh just did. Do you think it's a mistake that Biden left Trump's massive Corporate Tax giveaway in place? BTW.....remember mocking me for telling you that it's impossible for Trump's cut to "pay for itself", and that I needed to be patient?

"most Americans who aren't utter morons"? Maybe. Let's say Trump survives the primary and runs against Kamala... a lot of so-called "morons" will be born over night in that case.

There's a difference between holding your nose and voting Trump...and supporting Trump.

"Even Old Salt"? I said more than once years ago that Trump should not be allowed to run again. Going way back, I said if Trump breaks any laws and they can prove it, fine by me if he's in the slammer.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

I believe you. But I also remember you heckling posters and claiming they had TDS when we complained about Trump's behaviors.

Maybe.

Libertarians are now so far gone that they don't support an infrastructure bill? Okay. That means we're F'ed long term.

I agree on Ukraine and have said as much on here.

Do you think Biden Admin's zeal to destroy Putin has anything to do with the botched Afghan pullout? Great way to save face, look tough in eyes of world leaders after such a disaster?

I think that anyone rational thinks that Biden did just fine in the pullout.

I'll ask you the same question that I asked Old Salt, a man with military experience, and he couldn't give me an answer:

Give me your plan for pulling out of Afghanistan quickly with fewer than 13 American deaths.

Now before you answer, remember the math: in the last five years previous to the 2021 withdrawal, we had 15, 16, 23, and 11 deaths. So that means that if you take your time, and stay for 12 months past Biden's 2021 withdrawal, you'll have 16.25 deaths.

Good luck beating Biden's 13 deaths. Want OS's response? His response was: don't leave. Which means he concedes the 16.25 deaths per year in perpetuity. Which also means that Biden's evac was better by a mile.

Let's hear your withdrawal plan. Did you notice how many KIA's we had in 2022, and 2023? Big fat, beautiful ZERO.

I'm OVERJOYED that Biden got us out of there, after Obama failed to pull us out the day after we popped Bin Laden----which was the ENTIRE REASON we went in in the first place. Mission accomplished, get the F out. Obama could have both gotten us out, AND given our troops closure and the feeling of a finished job.

Again, maybe.

This is in response to the Chip Act. So this means you prefer that we continue to be dependent on computer Chips from Taiwan and other places. Do I have that right?

... 16.25 was only accomplished by Trump making an undeliverable promise to the Taliban. It would have been much higher going forward after reneging on that promise.

[youthathletics]

Now before you answer, remember the math: in the last five years previous to the 2021 withdrawal, we had 15, 16, 23, and 11 deaths. So that means that if you take your time, and stay for 12 months past Biden's 2021 withdrawal, you'll have 16.25 deaths.

Good luck beating Biden's 13 deaths. Want OS's response? His response was: don't leave. Which means he concedes the 16.25 deaths per year in perpetuity. Which also means that Biden's evac was better by a mile.

Let's hear your withdrawal plan. Did you notice how many KIA's we had in 2022, and 2023? Big fat, beautiful ZERO.

I'm OVERJOYED that Biden got us out of there, after Obama failed to pull us out the day after we popped Bin Laden----which was the ENTIRE REASON we went in in the first place. Mission accomplished, get the F out. Obama could have both gotten us out, AND given our troops closure and the feeling of a finished job.

The Biden exit plan effed up.....royally. Minimizing it to math and numbers does not make it any better for those familes. But yes, it is a good thing out troops are out of that place.....





BZ that he just retired yesterday and doing better.....notta on any news site Wonder why: https://www.dvidshub.net/video/888362/s ... t-ceremony

[jhu72]

... and sure, any of our Biden is always wrong warriors would have no problem drawing up a withdraw where the casualties would have been as few as 13.

[a fan]

The Biden exit plan effed up.....royally. Minimizing it to math and numbers does not make it any better for those familes.

I'm not minimizing doodly, you've got it backwards. You're minimizing the deaths that happened every year on Trump, Obama, and Bush's watch, my friend.

Where's the video complaining about the F ups that led to the 23 casualties in a single year under Trump?

You don't get to compare mistakes in the withdrawal to a vacuum. You have to compare it to the combat ops already in place. And those operations were far from perfect....hence the casualties and death.

The problem is that you all want to saddle Biden for the withdrawal mistakes.....but want to hold Trump, Obama, and Bush blameless for all the combat mistakes made over the preceding 20 years. It's ridiculous to do that.

This attitude, btw, is why we didn't leave----political reasons where Presidents didn't want to be on the hook for a headline grabbing withdrawal . So Trump did nothing about Afghanistan....and is on the hook for the 15, 16, 23, and 11 deaths that happened each year on his watch.

Where's the blame thread for that?

THIS is the ENTIRE why I wanted us out of there------every year we had Americans dying over there, and no one noticed, or cared.

Biden FINALLY has the stones to get them out of there...and folks decide to FINALLY pay attention to the soldiers getting blown up?

[youthathletics]

The Biden exit plan effed up.....royally. Minimizing it to math and numbers does not make it any better for those familes.

I'm not minimizing doodly, you've got it backwards. You're minimizing the deaths that happened every year on Trump, Obama, and Bush's watch, my friend.

Where's the video complaining about the F ups that led to the 23 casualties in a single year under Trump?

You don't get to compare mistakes in the withdrawal to a vacuum. You have to compare it to the combat ops already in place. And those operations were far from perfect....hence the casualties and death.

The problem is that you all want to saddle Biden for the withdrawal mistakes.....but want to hold Trump, Obama, and Bush blameless for all the combat mistakes made over the preceding 20 years. It's ridiculous to do that.

This attitude, btw, is why we didn't leave----political reasons that . So Trump did nothing about Afghanistan....and is on the hook for the 15, 16, 23, and 11 deaths that happened each year on his watch.

Where's the blame thread for that?

THIS is the ENTIRE why I wanted us out of there------every year we had Americans dying over there, and no one noticed, or cared.

Biden FINALLY has the stones to get them out of there...and folks decide to FINALLY pay attention to the soldiers getting blown up?

logic fail.You can’t compare apples and oranges. If you want to use your logic, you’d have to compare it to other evacuations that took place. But you know that. To your point, Biden had the amount killed in a typical year to roughly the same amount in mere days……

…..and yea, most everyone wanted us the hell out of there, I am also thrilled and said as much at the time. Just sad it was an effed up plan.

[jhu72]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

[MDlaxfan76]

The Biden exit plan effed up.....royally. Minimizing it to math and numbers does not make it any better for those familes.

I'm not minimizing doodly, you've got it backwards. You're minimizing the deaths that happened every year on Trump, Obama, and Bush's watch, my friend.

Where's the video complaining about the F ups that led to the 23 casualties in a single year under Trump?

You don't get to compare mistakes in the withdrawal to a vacuum. You have to compare it to the combat ops already in place. And those operations were far from perfect....hence the casualties and death.

The problem is that you all want to saddle Biden for the withdrawal mistakes.....but want to hold Trump, Obama, and Bush blameless for all the combat mistakes made over the preceding 20 years. It's ridiculous to do that.

This attitude, btw, is why we didn't leave----political reasons that . So Trump did nothing about Afghanistan....and is on the hook for the 15, 16, 23, and 11 deaths that happened each year on his watch.

Where's the blame thread for that?

THIS is the ENTIRE why I wanted us out of there------every year we had Americans dying over there, and no one noticed, or cared.

Biden FINALLY has the stones to get them out of there...and folks decide to FINALLY pay attention to the soldiers getting blown up?

logic fail.You can’t compare apples and oranges. If you want to use your logic, you’d have to compare it to other evacuations that took place. But you know that. To your point, Biden had the amount killed in a typical year to roughly the same amount in mere days……

…..and yea, most everyone wanted us the hell out of there, I am also thrilled and said as much at the time. Just sad it was an effed up plan.

Do you mean it was an effed up plan (and execution) by the military?

If I recollect correctly, they didn't want to plan to leave as ordered.

As to the apples and oranges, that's correct, it's important to compare like fruits as much as possible.

So, what other evacuations in hot combat zones went 'better', which went 'worse'...?

Was it the plan, or the reality that situations can change rapidly, the best laid plans...etc.?

Is there any relationship in those that went poorly a military that was resistant to actually leaving? Or was it that promising to leave, the enemy took advantage?

[youthathletics]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

[old salt]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.

[a fan]

logic fail.You can’t compare apples and oranges. If you want to use your logic, you’d have to compare it to other evacuations that took place. But you know that.

No, that's not it at all.

What you have to look at is: what happens if you take your sweet-*ss time getting them out? Careful. Slow. Considered.

The Afghanistan math shows that you'll have 16.25 deaths if you have US Troops there every 12 months.

In addition, as you're winding down, troops are increasingly exposed.....more so if you take your time.

My point is simple: a perfect evacuation doesn't exist, and folks are complaining just to complain.

Either yell and scream at Trump for sitting back and doing nothing at all about our troops stationed there, while they die for no reason.....or take it easy on Biden for having 3 fewer deaths than average in 2021....and then a perfect zero for the next 1,000 years.

Pick one.

[Typical Lax Dad]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

You didn’t care until Bided withdrew. All the parents that I know with kids that got out are happy they did….was playing in a tournament in a foursome with a guy whose son showed up at the tournament straight from Afghanistan….his dad was happy he was home.

[a fan]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.

We tried that. We elected Trump. 16.25 soldiers died every year over there under his rule.

How's Biden's average looking for his Presidency? Better. His numbers are better. Grateful for that.

[Typical Lax Dad]

logic fail.You can’t compare apples and oranges. If you want to use your logic, you’d have to compare it to other evacuations that took place. But you know that.

No, that's not it at all.

What you have to look at is: what happens if you take your sweet-*ss time getting them out? Careful. Slow. Considered.

The Afghanistan math shows that you'll have 16.25 deaths if you have US Troops there every 12 months.

In addition, as you're winding down, troops are increasingly exposed.....more so if you take your time.

My point is simple: a perfect evacuation doesn't exist, and folks are complaining just to complain.

Either yell and scream at Trump for sitting back and doing nothing at all about our troops stationed there, while they die for no reason.....or take it easy on Biden for having 3 fewer deaths than average in 2021....and then a perfect zero for the next 1,000 years.

Pick one.

What’s the average number of deaths to usa servicemen in Afghanistan since “Brandon” took control?

EDIT: Posts crossed

[old salt]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.

We tried that. We elected Trump. 16.25 soldiers died every year over there under his rule.

How's Biden's average looking for his Presidency? Better. His numbers are better. Grateful for that.

Combat losses are not linear. It's not that simple. We don't have any losses if we are not there.
It depends on the mission, force protections in place & the threat.
Who knows what losses we would have taken had we hunkered down with our small residual force in Bagram, & our NATO allies done so at their western base, while we continued intel & air support for the ASF. Our troops were not outside the wire.
Would the ASF have folded if we maintained the small residual force the military recommended to Biden ?
You don't know. I don't know. The ASF, even their air force, were gradually improving & becoming more self-reliant.

[a fan]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.

We tried that. We elected Trump. 16.25 soldiers died every year over there under his rule.

How's Biden's average looking for his Presidency? Better. His numbers are better. Grateful for that.

Combat losses are not linear. It's not that simple.

That's right.

Which is why the complaining about Biden doing it wrong are hollow complaints.

[Typical Lax Dad]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.

We tried that. We elected Trump. 16.25 soldiers died every year over there under his rule.

How's Biden's average looking for his Presidency? Better. His numbers are better. Grateful for that.

Combat losses are not linear. It's not that simple. We don't have any losses if we are not there.
It depends on the mission, force protections in place & the threat.
Who knows what losses we would have taken had we hunkered down with our small residual force in Bagram, & our NATO allies done so at their western base, while we continued intel & air support for the ASF. Our troops were not outside the wire.
Would the ASF have folded if we maintained the small residual force the military recommended to Biden ?
You don't know. I don't know. The ASF, even their air force, were gradually improving & becoming more self-reliant.

I know how to guarantee that we have less casualties than we would with a hunkered down residual force!!!

[old salt]

... I love all the pretending that anyone cares now, other than as a reason to beat up a politician they don't like. Obama had his chance. Trump had his chance. Biden is the only one with a set of balls to stand up to the we can't ever leave military industrial complex.

There are dozens of pages of discussion while it was in process, this is not a new argument. I chimed in b/c the marine that was blown up and lost an arm and leg just retired.......but you guys have it pretty much right.....no one cares.

Some of us still care, but there's nothing we can do about it, ...except elect a different CinC in 16 mos.

We tried that. We elected Trump. 16.25 soldiers died every year over there under his rule.

How's Biden's average looking for his Presidency? Better. His numbers are better. Grateful for that.

Combat losses are not linear. It's not that simple.

That's right.

Which is why the complaining about Biden doing it wrong are hollow complaints.

Had he not ordered the withdrawal, pulled all our forces back to the airport in Kabul, then expected them to control the gates...

Biden ignored the advice of the military & gave them a mission impossible. The buck stops where ?

[a fan]

Had he not ordered the withdrawal, pulled all our forces back to the airport in Kabul, then expected them to control the gates...

Biden ignored the advice of the military & gave them a mission impossible. The buck stops where ?

And had he stayed, as you asked, we'd likely have 16 more dead Americans in 2022 and 2023, with the meter still running. It's possible it would be less, sure. But it was also possible that it would have been more than 16.

There wasn't a winning move. Didn't exist.

Trump followed the advice of the military, right? How'd that work out? Worse than for Biden, correct?

This is in keeping and agreeing 100% with your statement that combat losses are not linear.




It's the theme of the movie War Games: "the only winning move is: not to play". You want to take this path in Ukraine, yeah?

Well, I wanted to take this path for Afghanistan. Obama and Trump failed on this count. Biden succeeded.