All Things Russia & Ukraine

[Typical Lax Dad]

I don't understand why you watch these channels you hate so much.
Perhaps so you can complain here.

Both networks have correspondents & experts whose reporting & analysis I seek & trust.
Clapper's not one of them. I expect the hosts to at least know the names of the subjects they're discussing.

Perhaps you'd prefer looney tune Maria Bartiromo on Faux News laughably accusing Biden of orchestrating events in Russia to distract from Hunter Biden situation.

somehow we never hear that kind of criticism from you

That’s only on when he’s not watching.

If it were not for you, I would not even know about it.

I don’t watch any of that programming Old Man.

[old salt]

That's one of the more ridiculous things you've written.
Is Stalin "expunged from history", Hitler?

Putin's speech (and other speeches) pervert history, just as Hitler's speeches perverted German history.

That you don't recognize that there's a very real difference between truth and falsehood tells us a lot.

The guise of mere 'perspective' of 'history' as equally valid to truth is simply wrong. It's propaganda, not history.

...I said THE MOST dangerous. I dIdn't list a Top 10 or make an all inclusive list.
There's been a bunch of dangerous leaders, but Hitler"s still the worst, imho.

The most effective propaganda, like the most convincing lies, are based on an element of truth.
You are naive if you expect propaganda to be truth.

The borders of Russia, throughout history, are facts -- not lies or propaganda.
Russia (under Stalin) was our ally in the most destructive war in history.
Without Russian sacrifices, our victory & post war ascendancy was not assured.

By editing out what I was responding to, you can pretend I was responding to the "most dangerous human since Hitler", but that was a different set of comments with others. I was responding to your direct comment to me, "you can't expunge him from history". and "He's Russian. You're not".

That was a ridiculous statement directed to me.
On its face.

And WT heck do you mean by "you are naive if you expect propaganda to be the truth"...where did I give you that dumb idea? It's the opposite, it's a perversion of the truth. Which is why I commented at all: "Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

The propagandist, Hitler, Putin, etc, takes a kernel of truth and twists it into something that is a perversion of it. It ain't remotely 'truthful'. And the fascist propagandist designs to inflame, anger, enrage against the Other, based on underlying bigotries, resentments, falsehoods.

So, when Hitler by example blamed the Jews for the loss of WWI, and all manner of other pervertd falsehoods, it was gross perversion of history, just as when he claimed that Germany had a destiny based on racial superiority...there have been all sorts of propagandists throughout history, including quite a few of our own in American history.

And if Putin (or you) want to focus on Russia under Stalin, certainly the alliance to defeat Nazi Germany is important to recall, but to forget Stalin's genocide against the Jews, his starvation of millions of Ukrainians (Holomodor), or his multiple purges, totaling more than 20 million killed through his orders, is to pervert history.

So, like Hitler, like Stalin, Putin may well go down in history as one of the worst war criminals and genocidal dictators...hopefully he won't be responsible for the scale of death as those two authoritarian predecessors, but I agree with you that he poses that sort of danger.

As to the "borders" of "Russia", they've changed numerous times. To claim otherwise, so as to justify the ignoring the sovereign aspirations of others throughout history, well that's just another perversion to serve the propagandist.

You 'were off on a tangent.
1. I was referring to how Putin's speech would be received by the Russian people, not by you. You were not his target audience.

2. I was referring to Putin being the most dangerous in terms of causing the loss of human life, since Hitler.
Sure -- Stalin is a contender for all-time honors, although he was Hitler's contemporary, so "since" rules him out of contention.
He deserves some credit for eliminating Hitler.

I excised & did not respond to the portion of your rant which I could not follow which did not address the point I was making.

IMHO -- Putin's speech will be regarded as historic because (even in translation) it eloquently presents his case (to the Russian people) for Russia's place in history & his rationale for launching this war to return Ukraine as an integral part of Russia. It's turning out to be a tragic mistake & a lost cause, but that does not make the speech any less historic or eloquent. Maybe it will be lost in a dramatic cascade of future catastrophic or beneficial events. Who knows ? I hope things don't get worse in terms of total loss of lives. Devastating weapons & erratic personalities are at play. We'll see.

[Typical Lax Dad]

That's one of the more ridiculous things you've written.
Is Stalin "expunged from history", Hitler?

Putin's speech (and other speeches) pervert history, just as Hitler's speeches perverted German history.

That you don't recognize that there's a very real difference between truth and falsehood tells us a lot.

The guise of mere 'perspective' of 'history' as equally valid to truth is simply wrong. It's propaganda, not history.

...I said THE MOST dangerous. I dIdn't list a Top 10 or make an all inclusive list.
There's been a bunch of dangerous leaders, but Hitler"s still the worst, imho.

The most effective propaganda, like the most convincing lies, are based on an element of truth.
You are naive if you expect propaganda to be truth.

The borders of Russia, throughout history, are facts -- not lies or propaganda.
Russia (under Stalin) was our ally in the most destructive war in history.
Without Russian sacrifices, our victory & post war ascendancy was not assured.

By editing out what I was responding to, you can pretend I was responding to the "most dangerous human since Hitler", but that was a different set of comments with others. I was responding to your direct comment to me, "you can't expunge him from history". and "He's Russian. You're not".

That was a ridiculous statement directed to me.
On its face.

And WT heck do you mean by "you are naive if you expect propaganda to be the truth"...where did I give you that dumb idea? It's the opposite, it's a perversion of the truth. Which is why I commented at all: "Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

The propagandist, Hitler, Putin, etc, takes a kernel of truth and twists it into something that is a perversion of it. It ain't remotely 'truthful'. And the fascist propagandist designs to inflame, anger, enrage against the Other, based on underlying bigotries, resentments, falsehoods.

So, when Hitler by example blamed the Jews for the loss of WWI, and all manner of other pervertd falsehoods, it was gross perversion of history, just as when he claimed that Germany had a destiny based on racial superiority...there have been all sorts of propagandists throughout history, including quite a few of our own in American history.

And if Putin (or you) want to focus on Russia under Stalin, certainly the alliance to defeat Nazi Germany is important to recall, but to forget Stalin's genocide against the Jews, his starvation of millions of Ukrainians (Holomodor), or his multiple purges, totaling more than 20 million killed through his orders, is to pervert history.

So, like Hitler, like Stalin, Putin may well go down in history as one of the worst war criminals and genocidal dictators...hopefully he won't be responsible for the scale of death as those two authoritarian predecessors, but I agree with you that he poses that sort of danger.

As to the "borders" of "Russia", they've changed numerous times. To claim otherwise, so as to justify the ignoring the sovereign aspirations of others throughout history, well that's just another perversion to serve the propagandist.

You 'were off on a tangent.
1. I was referring to how Putin's speech would be received by the Russian people, not by you. You were not his target audience.

2. I was referring to Putin being the most dangerous in terms of causing the loss of human life, since Hitler.
Sure -- Stalin is a contender for all-time honors, although he was Hitler's contemporary, so "since" rules him out of contention.
He deserves some credit for eliminating Hitler.

I excised & did not respond to the portion of your rant which I could not follow which did not address the point I was making.

IMHO -- Putin's speech will be regarded as historic because (even in translation) it eloquently presents his case (to the Russian people) for Russia's place in history & his rationale for launching this war to return Ukraine as an integral part of Russia. It's turning out to be a tragic mistake & a lost cause, but that does not make the speech any less historic or eloquent. Maybe it will be lost in a dramatic cascade of future catastrophic or beneficial events. Who knows ? I hope things don't get worse in terms of total loss of lives. Devastating weapons & erratic personalities are at play. We'll see.

It will be remembered by you and a few other people that remember Robert Jones’ speech:

[Typical Lax Dad]

[old salt]

Putin's speech did not send protesters into the streets protesting him.

The demonstrations in Rostov-on-Don were in celebration of the Wagner fighters who Putin has hailed as heroes.

Even in his speech, Putin still praised the "heroic" Wagner fighters & separated their leaders as the traitors.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Putin's speech did not send protesters into the streets protesting him.

The demonstrations in Rostov-on-Don were in celebration of the Wagner fighters who Putin has hailed as heroes.

Even in his speech, Putin still praised the "heroic" Wagner fighters & separated their leaders as the traitors.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/17 ... pilots/amp

[old salt]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/17 ... pilots/amp

3 helos & 1 turboprop. That's 8 pilots not 39.

Russian SAM's are good. That's why we're dragging out feet on giving F-16's to Ukraine.
There will be losses. F-16 flares are no better than Mig-29 flares.
The Ukrainians don't know how to fly Wild Weasel missions in their Migs & SU's.
Steep learning curve to a demanding, dangerous mission in the F-16, especially without jammer aircraft involved.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/17 ... pilots/amp

3 helos & 1 turboprop. That's 8 pilots not 39.

Russian SAM's are good. That's why we're dragging out feet on giving F-16's to Ukraine.

“Putin humiliated”…. Was all I needed to read.

[old salt]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/17 ... pilots/amp

3 helos & 1 turboprop. That's 8 pilots not 39.

Russian SAM's are good. That's why we're dragging out feet on giving F-16's to Ukraine.

“Putin humiliated”…. Was all I needed to read.

In the eyes of a Brit tabloid.

[Typical Lax Dad]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/17 ... pilots/amp

3 helos & 1 turboprop. That's 8 pilots not 39.

Russian SAM's are good. That's why we're dragging out feet on giving F-16's to Ukraine.

“Putin humiliated”…. Was all I needed to read.

In the eyes of a Brit tabloid.

Your guy may still win this war and re-conquer Ukraine. There is still time.

[old salt]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/17 ... pilots/amp

3 helos & 1 turboprop. That's 8 pilots not 39.

Russian SAM's are good. That's why we're dragging our feet on giving F-16's to Ukraine.

“Putin humiliated”…. Was all I needed to read.

In the eyes of a Brit tabloid.

Your guy may still win this war and re-conquer Ukraine. There is still time.

Not my guy. Russian victory unlikely. Ukraine & The West will prevail, at huge costs, present & future.

[DocBarrister]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/17 ... pilots/amp

3 helos & 1 turboprop. That's 8 pilots not 39.

Russian SAM's are good. That's why we're dragging out feet on giving F-16's to Ukraine.
There will be losses. F-16 flares are no better than Mig-29 flares.
The Ukrainians don't know how to fly Wild Weasel missions in their Migs & SU's.
Steep learning curve to a demanding, dangerous mission in the F-16, especially without jammer aircraft involved.

No, it is 39 pilots and crew. Reports are that Wagner shot down 6 helicopters and an IL-22 command plane.

Russia is reportedly seeking to cover up the losses of 39 pilots and crew shot down by the Wagner Group in its aborted march to Moscow.

Putin is believed to have lost six helicopters and an Il-22 plane.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... ore-target

What kind of “leader” lets a traitor kill 39 airmen and then publicly offer the traitor exile? Sure, Prigozhin will be whacked in time, but why would Putin meekly make a deal like this? Putin looks weak.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

The destruction of the Kakhovka Dam is depriving much of Russian occupied southern Ukraine of fresh water, including the critical N Crimea Canal, one of the major pre-war aims of the invasion. Additionally, the flooding washed away many of the defensive positions made by the Russian defenders.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65963403

[old salt]

What kind of “leader” lets a traitor kill 39 airmen and then publicly offer the traitor exile? Sure, Prigozhin will be whacked in time, but why would Putin meekly make a deal like this? Putin looks weak.

DocBarrister

A massive bloodletting & the chaos of civil war would have been a much better outcome, especially with loose nucs.

We only lost 13 when we bailed out of Afghanistan.

[MDlaxfan76]

That's one of the more ridiculous things you've written.
Is Stalin "expunged from history", Hitler?

Putin's speech (and other speeches) pervert history, just as Hitler's speeches perverted German history.

That you don't recognize that there's a very real difference between truth and falsehood tells us a lot.

The guise of mere 'perspective' of 'history' as equally valid to truth is simply wrong. It's propaganda, not history.

...I said THE MOST dangerous. I dIdn't list a Top 10 or make an all inclusive list.
There's been a bunch of dangerous leaders, but Hitler"s still the worst, imho.

The most effective propaganda, like the most convincing lies, are based on an element of truth.
You are naive if you expect propaganda to be truth.

The borders of Russia, throughout history, are facts -- not lies or propaganda.
Russia (under Stalin) was our ally in the most destructive war in history.
Without Russian sacrifices, our victory & post war ascendancy was not assured.

By editing out what I was responding to, you can pretend I was responding to the "most dangerous human since Hitler", but that was a different set of comments with others. I was responding to your direct comment to me, "you can't expunge him from history". and "He's Russian. You're not".

That was a ridiculous statement directed to me.
On its face.

And WT heck do you mean by "you are naive if you expect propaganda to be the truth"...where did I give you that dumb idea? It's the opposite, it's a perversion of the truth. Which is why I commented at all: "Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

The propagandist, Hitler, Putin, etc, takes a kernel of truth and twists it into something that is a perversion of it. It ain't remotely 'truthful'. And the fascist propagandist designs to inflame, anger, enrage against the Other, based on underlying bigotries, resentments, falsehoods.

So, when Hitler by example blamed the Jews for the loss of WWI, and all manner of other pervertd falsehoods, it was gross perversion of history, just as when he claimed that Germany had a destiny based on racial superiority...there have been all sorts of propagandists throughout history, including quite a few of our own in American history.

And if Putin (or you) want to focus on Russia under Stalin, certainly the alliance to defeat Nazi Germany is important to recall, but to forget Stalin's genocide against the Jews, his starvation of millions of Ukrainians (Holomodor), or his multiple purges, totaling more than 20 million killed through his orders, is to pervert history.

So, like Hitler, like Stalin, Putin may well go down in history as one of the worst war criminals and genocidal dictators...hopefully he won't be responsible for the scale of death as those two authoritarian predecessors, but I agree with you that he poses that sort of danger.

As to the "borders" of "Russia", they've changed numerous times. To claim otherwise, so as to justify the ignoring the sovereign aspirations of others throughout history, well that's just another perversion to serve the propagandist.

You 'were off on a tangent.
1. I was referring to how Putin's speech would be received by the Russian people, not by you. You were not his target audience.

2. I was referring to Putin being the most dangerous in terms of causing the loss of human life, since Hitler.
Sure -- Stalin is a contender for all-time honors, although he was Hitler's contemporary, so "since" rules him out of contention.
He deserves some credit for eliminating Hitler.

I excised & did not respond to the portion of your rant which I could not follow which did not address the point I was making.

IMHO -- Putin's speech will be regarded as historic because (even in translation) it eloquently presents his case (to the Russian people) for Russia's place in history & his rationale for launching this war to return Ukraine as an integral part of Russia. It's turning out to be a tragic mistake & a lost cause, but that does not make the speech any less historic or eloquent. Maybe it will be lost in a dramatic cascade of future catastrophic or beneficial events. Who knows ? I hope things don't get worse in terms of total loss of lives. Devastating weapons & erratic personalities are at play. We'll see.

No, I responded to a very specific set of statements, your praise of Putin's speech.

I simply responded that his speech perverted history; propaganda...you went off on this idea "you can't expunge him from history"...of course not, it's a dumb statement.

I wasn't responding at all to "the most dangerous" stuff, until you directed that at me.

[old salt]

I simply responded that his speech perverted history; propaganda...you went off on this idea "you can't expunge him from history"...of course not, it's a dumb statement.

I disagree. As far as Russian history goes, I think Putin's speech is accurate & resonates with the Russian people.

I don't agree with him that it justifies war with Ukraine to restore Russia's former borders.

I just did a google map sat look at Crimea. I counted over 50 fighter aircraft sitting in the open on ramps at 2 air fields with multiple aircraft alert bunkered shelters.

It will be tough to take Crimea.

[MDlaxfan76]

I simply responded that his speech perverted history; propaganda...you went off on this idea "you can't expunge him from history"...of course not, it's a dumb statement.

I disagree. As far as Russian history goes, I think Putin's speech is accurate & resonates with the Russian people.

I don't agree with him that it justifies war with Ukraine to restore Russia's former borders.

I just did a google map sat look at Crimea. I counted over 50 fighter aircraft sitting in the open on ramps at 2 air fields with multiple aircraft alert bunkered shelters.

It will be tough to take Crimea.

Exactly; you've bought into his propaganda, his perversion of history.

As I wrote earlier, taking partial truth of history, ignoring the bulk of truth of history, in order to misinform for a desired effect, false conclusions, is propaganda.

That it "resonates" is only to say that the people have been mis-informed for even generations of propaganda. An authoritarian fascist like Putin knows what he is doing when he does so..truth doesn't matter, just the desired effect.

It does not make it "accurate".

And you've bought it. What I don't get is why.

And yes, it will be tough to take Crimea.
It's going to be tough to take back the rest of the territories annexed illegally by Russia as well.

[old salt]

I simply responded that his speech perverted history; propaganda...you went off on this idea "you can't expunge him from history"...of course not, it's a dumb statement.

I disagree. As far as Russian history goes, I think Putin's speech is accurate & resonates with the Russian people.

I don't agree with him that it justifies war with Ukraine to restore Russia's former borders.

I just did a google map sat look at Crimea. I counted over 50 fighter aircraft sitting in the open on ramps at 2 air fields with multiple aircraft alert bunkered shelters.

It will be tough to take Crimea.

Exactly; you've bought into his propaganda, his perversion of history.

As I wrote earlier, taking partial truth of history, ignoring the bulk of truth of history, in order to misinform for a desired effect, false conclusions, is propaganda.

That it "resonates" is only to say that the people have been mis-informed for even generations of propaganda. An authoritarian fascist like Putin knows what he is doing when he does so..truth doesn't matter, just the desired effect.

It does not make it "accurate".

And you've bought it. What I don't get is why.

And yes, it will be tough to take Crimea.
It's going to be tough to take back the rest of the territories annexed illegally by Russia as well.

My views on Russian history are not propaganda. I formed them before Putin came to power, when the USSR came apart after the Cold War & we (the West) exploited the situation to contain Russia & lop off parts of what had been historically Russian territory. Just look at a series of maps, ponder the advantages that accrued to us (the West) & the losses that Russia suffered. Now you're surprised that Putin is able to revive Russian nationalism & stoke their sense of grievance.

[MDlaxfan76]

I simply responded that his speech perverted history; propaganda...you went off on this idea "you can't expunge him from history"...of course not, it's a dumb statement.

I disagree. As far as Russian history goes, I think Putin's speech is accurate & resonates with the Russian people.

I don't agree with him that it justifies war with Ukraine to restore Russia's former borders.

I just did a google map sat look at Crimea. I counted over 50 fighter aircraft sitting in the open on ramps at 2 air fields with multiple aircraft alert bunkered shelters.

It will be tough to take Crimea.

Exactly; you've bought into his propaganda, his perversion of history.

As I wrote earlier, taking partial truth of history, ignoring the bulk of truth of history, in order to misinform for a desired effect, false conclusions, is propaganda.

That it "resonates" is only to say that the people have been mis-informed for even generations of propaganda. An authoritarian fascist like Putin knows what he is doing when he does so..truth doesn't matter, just the desired effect.

It does not make it "accurate".

And you've bought it. What I don't get is why.

And yes, it will be tough to take Crimea.
It's going to be tough to take back the rest of the territories annexed illegally by Russia as well.

My views on Russian history are not propaganda. I formed them before Putin came to power, when the USSR came apart after the Cold War & we (the West) exploited the situation to contain Russia & lop off parts of what had been historically Russian territory. Just look at a series of maps, ponder the advantages that accrued to us (the West) & the losses that Russia suffered. Now you're surprised that Putin is able to revive Russian nationalism & stoke their sense of grievance.

No, I am not surprised that many generations of rule of the Soviets involved massive propaganda and that there was a yearning to believe the lies they'd grown up with about Russian destiny. A yearning to be told these lies again, a yearning to blame the Other for the failures.

We have some of the same dynamics here in the US.

Again, propaganda. Not "truth".