All Things Russia & Ukraine

[DocBarrister]

Good thread to follow on the current goings on: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/ ... 81473?s=20

I dunno, the other people's comments are off the wall.

But the moving news comments from the primary are interesting.

Just focus on the primary....I know it can be hard, but you can do it. It beats sitting in front of the boob tube listening to drivel and commercials.

Putin's speech is eloquent...& frightening. It might be one for the archives. This is a dangerous situation.

You do understand that Putin is a corrupt, fascist dictator and war criminal who intentionally attacks Ukrainian civilians and throws his enemies out of tall buildings (when he isn’t poisoning them)?

I might suggest it is time to stop worshipping the guy.

DocBarrister

Worship. ...the bad guys make history too. It was an eloquent summation of why he went to war in Ukraine, delivered to the Russian people at a crucial point in time. You don't have to agree or like it for it to be historic. You're perverting history in real time.

Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

He's Russian. You're not. Enough Russians agree with his version of history to keep him in power for decades now & to take his nation into a catastrophic war which they still support. You can't expunge him from history.

Your continued worship of Putin is shameful and repugnant.

Putin will ultimately wind up in the dustbin of history.

DocBarrister

He likes his policies

I like stability & a balance of power which does not drag us into "foreign entaglements" that are not in our national interest & wars which are not an existential threat to our security. .

“Stability” and “Putin” are two incongruent terms.

It’s bizarre you would think otherwise.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

“Stability” and “Putin” are two incongruent terms.

It’s bizarre you would think otherwise.

DocBarrister

Let's foment the next color revolution & push NATO & the EU further into Mother Russia in our pursuit of stability.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Good thread to follow on the current goings on: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/ ... 81473?s=20

I dunno, the other people's comments are off the wall.

But the moving news comments from the primary are interesting.

Just focus on the primary....I know it can be hard, but you can do it. It beats sitting in front of the boob tube listening to drivel and commercials.

Putin's speech is eloquent...& frightening. It might be one for the archives. This is a dangerous situation.

You do understand that Putin is a corrupt, fascist dictator and war criminal who intentionally attacks Ukrainian civilians and throws his enemies out of tall buildings (when he isn’t poisoning them)?

I might suggest it is time to stop worshipping the guy.

DocBarrister

Worship. ...the bad guys make history too. It was an eloquent summation of why he went to war in Ukraine, delivered to the Russian people at a crucial point in time. You don't have to agree or like it for it to be historic. You're perverting history in real time.

Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

He's Russian. You're not. Enough Russians agree with his version of history to keep him in power for decades now & to take his nation into a catastrophic war which they still support. You can't expunge him from history.

Your continued worship of Putin is shameful and repugnant.

Putin will ultimately wind up in the dustbin of history.

DocBarrister

He likes his policies

I like stability & a balance of power which does not drag us into "foreign entaglements" that are not in our national interest & wars which are not an existential threat to our security. .

Un huh. None of that matters anymore.

You don't that yet. You don't know how this latest neocon adventure will play out & what the long term & unintended consequences will be.

[old salt]

Will Putin be able to declare the Wagner troops to be heroes of Mother Russia, hold them together as a coherent fighting force & get them back into the fight under a unified Russian military command ? Otherwise, as long as they remain together in Russia, they are the shock troops for a coup in waiting.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Will Putin be able to declare the Wagner troops to be heroes of Mother Russia, hold them together as a coherent fighting force & get them back into the fight under a unified Russian military command ? Otherwise, as long as they remain together in Russia, they are the shock troops for a coup in waiting.

You let us know.

[DocBarrister]

Will Putin be able to declare the Wagner troops to be heroes of Mother Russia, hold them together as a coherent fighting force & get them back into the fight under a unified Russian military command ? Otherwise, as long as they remain together in Russia, they are the shock troops for a coup in waiting.

“Mother Russia” under Putin is little more than a fascist criminal organization run by a murderous war criminal.

A news commentator earlier today was correct in stating that this violent confrontation between Putin and Prigozhin more closely resembled a mob war than a coup d’etat.

Your continued support of a violent and volatile criminal organization and your barely hidden idolatry of a war criminal are truly offensive.

DocBarrister

[old salt]

Will Putin be able to declare the Wagner troops to be heroes of Mother Russia, hold them together as a coherent fighting force & get them back into the fight under a unified Russian military command ? Otherwise, as long as they remain together in Russia, they are the shock troops for a coup in waiting.

“Mother Russia” under Putin is little more than a fascist criminal organization run by a murderous war criminal.

A news commentator earlier today was correct in stating that this violent confrontation between Putin and Prigozhin more closely resembled a mob war than a coup d’etat.

Your continued support of a violent and volatile criminal organization and your barely hidden idolatry of a war criminal are truly offensive.

DocBarrister

...your intolerance & accusations against anyone who does not share your biased opinion is offensive.
Too bad this latest event did not deliver what you hoped for. No need to lash out at others.

Wanting to end the carnage & killing over artificial boundaries of historically Russian territory does not equate to support for Putin.
FTR -- I long ago posted my opinion that Putin is the most dangerous human since Hitler. Millions of Russians don't share my opinion.
Prigozhin in power would be even worse.

It was amusing watching MSNBC host Alicia Menendez, & then CNN expert James Clapper, who both kept forgetting & couldn't pronounce Prigozhin's name.

[DocBarrister]

Will Putin be able to declare the Wagner troops to be heroes of Mother Russia, hold them together as a coherent fighting force & get them back into the fight under a unified Russian military command ? Otherwise, as long as they remain together in Russia, they are the shock troops for a coup in waiting.

“Mother Russia” under Putin is little more than a fascist criminal organization run by a murderous war criminal.

A news commentator earlier today was correct in stating that this violent confrontation between Putin and Prigozhin more closely resembled a mob war than a coup d’etat.

Your continued support of a violent and volatile criminal organization and your barely hidden idolatry of a war criminal are truly offensive.

DocBarrister

...your intolerance & accusations against anyone who does not share your biased opinion is offensive.
Too bad this latest event did not deliver what you hoped for. No need to lash out at others.

Wanting to end the carnage & killing over artificial boundaries of historically Russian territory does not equate to support for Putin.
FTR -- I long ago posted my opinion that Putin is the most dangerous human since Hitler. Millions of Russians don't share my opinion.
Prigozhin in power would be even worse.

It was amusing watching MSNBC host Alicia Menendez, & then CNN expert James Clapper, who both kept forgetting & couldn't pronounce Prigozhin's name.

Please … it is your years-long bias in favor of “Mother Russia” and Putin that has been an embarrassment to this forum.

Anyway, seems that the U.S. may have had better intelligence on Prigozhin than Putin did.

American intelligence officials briefed senior military and administration officials on Wednesday that Yevgeny Prigozhin, the leader of the mercenary Wagner Group, was preparing to take military action against senior Russian defense officials, according to officials familiar with the matter.

U.S. spy agencies had indications days earlier that Mr. Prigozhin was planning something and worked to refine that material into a finished assessment, officials said.

The information shows that the United States was aware of impending events in Russia, similar to how intelligence agencies had warned in late 2021 that Vladimir V. Putin was planning to invade Ukraine.

But unlike with the initial invasion, when U.S. officials declassified the intelligence and then released it to try to deter Mr. Putin from invading, intelligence agencies kept silent about Mr. Prigozhin’s plans. U.S. officials felt that if they said anything, Mr. Putin could accuse them of orchestrating a coup. And they clearly had little interest in helping Mr. Putin avoid a major, embarrassing fracturing of his support.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/24/worl ... rning.html

DocBarrister

[MDlaxfan76]

Good thread to follow on the current goings on: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/ ... 81473?s=20

I dunno, the other people's comments are off the wall.

But the moving news comments from the primary are interesting.

Just focus on the primary....I know it can be hard, but you can do it. It beats sitting in front of the boob tube listening to drivel and commercials.

Putin's speech is eloquent...& frightening. It might be one for the archives. This is a dangerous situation.

You do understand that Putin is a corrupt, fascist dictator and war criminal who intentionally attacks Ukrainian civilians and throws his enemies out of tall buildings (when he isn’t poisoning them)?

I might suggest it is time to stop worshipping the guy.

DocBarrister

Worship. ...the bad guys make history too. It was an eloquent summation of why he went to war in Ukraine, delivered to the Russian people at a crucial point in time. You don't have to agree or like it for it to be historic. You're perverting history in real time.

Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

He's Russian. You're not. Enough Russians agree with his version of history to keep him in power for decades now & to take his nation into a catastrophic war which they still support. He's led Russia since 1999 & revived Russian nationalism in the process. You can't expunge him from history.

That's one of the more ridiculous things you've written.
Is Stalin "expunged from history", Hitler?

Putin's speech (and other speeches) pervert history, just as Hitler's speeches perverted German history.

That you don't recognize that there's a very real difference between truth and falsehood tells us a lot.

The guise of mere 'perspective' of 'history' as equally valid to truth is simply wrong. It's propaganda, not history.

[MDlaxfan76]

Good thread to follow on the current goings on: https://twitter.com/MarioNawfal/status/ ... 81473?s=20

I dunno, the other people's comments are off the wall.

But the moving news comments from the primary are interesting.

Just focus on the primary....I know it can be hard, but you can do it. It beats sitting in front of the boob tube listening to drivel and commercials.

Putin's speech is eloquent...& frightening. It might be one for the archives. This is a dangerous situation.

You do understand that Putin is a corrupt, fascist dictator and war criminal who intentionally attacks Ukrainian civilians and throws his enemies out of tall buildings (when he isn’t poisoning them)?

I might suggest it is time to stop worshipping the guy.

DocBarrister

Worship. ...the bad guys make history too. It was an eloquent summation of why he went to war in Ukraine, delivered to the Russian people at a crucial point in time. You don't have to agree or like it for it to be historic. You're perverting history in real time.

Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

He's Russian. You're not. Enough Russians agree with his version of history to keep him in power for decades now & to take his nation into a catastrophic war which they still support. You can't expunge him from history.

Your continued worship of Putin is shameful and repugnant.

Putin will ultimately wind up in the dustbin of history.

DocBarrister

But not expunged. He'll go down as a massive war criminal...there have been worse, but he'll go down as a failed leader as well.

[Kismet]

Will Putin be able to declare the Wagner troops to be heroes of Mother Russia, hold them together as a coherent fighting force & get them back into the fight under a unified Russian military command ? Otherwise, as long as they remain together in Russia, they are the shock troops for a coup in waiting.

“Mother Russia” under Putin is little more than a fascist criminal organization run by a murderous war criminal.

A news commentator earlier today was correct in stating that this violent confrontation between Putin and Prigozhin more closely resembled a mob war than a coup d’etat.

Your continued support of a violent and volatile criminal organization and your barely hidden idolatry of a war criminal are truly offensive.

DocBarrister

...your intolerance & accusations against anyone who does not share your biased opinion is offensive.
Too bad this latest event did not deliver what you hoped for. No need to lash out at others.

Wanting to end the carnage & killing over artificial boundaries of historically Russian territory does not equate to support for Putin.
FTR -- I long ago posted my opinion that Putin is the most dangerous human since Hitler. Millions of Russians don't share my opinion.
Prigozhin in power would be even worse.

It was amusing watching MSNBC host Alicia Menendez, & then CNN expert James Clapper, who both kept forgetting & couldn't pronounce Prigozhin's name.

I don't understand why you watch these channels you hate so much.
Perhaps so you can complain here.

[Kismet]

Will Putin be able to declare the Wagner troops to be heroes of Mother Russia, hold them together as a coherent fighting force & get them back into the fight under a unified Russian military command ? Otherwise, as long as they remain together in Russia, they are the shock troops for a coup in waiting.

I'm thinking your latter premise is the likely outcome.

What really amazes me is that Prigozhin took an "exile" in Belarus which is a vassal state to Russia where he could easily be reached and eliminated. Unless Putin, is keeping him on ice pending what happens now with the defense ministry and Wagner.

[old salt]

That's one of the more ridiculous things you've written.
Is Stalin "expunged from history", Hitler?

Putin's speech (and other speeches) pervert history, just as Hitler's speeches perverted German history.

That you don't recognize that there's a very real difference between truth and falsehood tells us a lot.

The guise of mere 'perspective' of 'history' as equally valid to truth is simply wrong. It's propaganda, not history.

...I said THE MOST dangerous. I dIdn't list a Top 10 or make an all inclusive list.
There's been a bunch of dangerous leaders, but Hitler"s still the worst, imho.

The most effective propaganda, like the most convincing lies, are based on an element of truth.
You are naive if you expect propaganda to be truth.

The borders of Russia, throughout history, are facts -- not lies or propaganda.
Russia (under Stalin) was our ally in the most destructive war in history.
Without Russian sacrifices, our victory & post war ascendancy was not assured.

[old salt]

I don't understand why you watch these channels you hate so much.
Perhaps so you can complain here.

Both networks have correspondents & experts whose reporting & analysis I seek & trust.
Clapper's not one of them. I expect the hosts to at least know the names of the subjects they're discussing.

[Typical Lax Dad]

That's one of the more ridiculous things you've written.
Is Stalin "expunged from history", Hitler?

Putin's speech (and other speeches) pervert history, just as Hitler's speeches perverted German history.

That you don't recognize that there's a very real difference between truth and falsehood tells us a lot.

The guise of mere 'perspective' of 'history' as equally valid to truth is simply wrong. It's propaganda, not history.

...I said THE MOST dangerous. I dIdn't list a Top 10 or make an all inclusive list.
There's been a bunch of dangerous leaders, but Hitler"s still the worst, imho.

The most effective propaganda, like the most convincing lies, are based on an element of truth.
You are naive if you expect propaganda to be truth.

The borders of Russia, throughout history, are facts -- not lies or propaganda.
Russia (under Stalin) was our ally in the most destructive war in history.
Without Russian sacrifices, our victory & post war ascendancy was not assured.

You hate America.

[MDlaxfan76]

That's one of the more ridiculous things you've written.
Is Stalin "expunged from history", Hitler?

Putin's speech (and other speeches) pervert history, just as Hitler's speeches perverted German history.

That you don't recognize that there's a very real difference between truth and falsehood tells us a lot.

The guise of mere 'perspective' of 'history' as equally valid to truth is simply wrong. It's propaganda, not history.

...I said THE MOST dangerous. I dIdn't list a Top 10 or make an all inclusive list.
There's been a bunch of dangerous leaders, but Hitler"s still the worst, imho.

The most effective propaganda, like the most convincing lies, are based on an element of truth.
You are naive if you expect propaganda to be truth.

The borders of Russia, throughout history, are facts -- not lies or propaganda.
Russia (under Stalin) was our ally in the most destructive war in history.
Without Russian sacrifices, our victory & post war ascendancy was not assured.

By editing out what I was responding to, you can pretend I was responding to the "most dangerous human since Hitler", but that was a different set of comments with others. I was responding to your direct comment to me, "you can't expunge him from history". and "He's Russian. You're not".

That was a ridiculous statement directed to me.
On its face.

And WT heck do you mean by "you are naive if you expect propaganda to be the truth"...where did I give you that dumb idea? It's the opposite, it's a perversion of the truth. Which is why I commented at all: "Actually, it was Putin "perverting history".

The propagandist, Hitler, Putin, etc, takes a kernel of truth and twists it into something that is a perversion of it. It ain't remotely 'truthful'. And the fascist propagandist designs to inflame, anger, enrage against the Other, based on underlying bigotries, resentments, falsehoods.

So, when Hitler by example blamed the Jews for the loss of WWI, and all manner of other pervertd falsehoods, it was gross perversion of history, just as when he claimed that Germany had a destiny based on racial superiority...there have been all sorts of propagandists throughout history, including quite a few of our own in American history.

And if Putin (or you) want to focus on Russia under Stalin, certainly the alliance to defeat Nazi Germany is important to recall, but to forget Stalin's genocide against the Jews, his starvation of millions of Ukrainians (Holomodor), or his multiple purges, totaling more than 20 million killed through his orders, is to pervert history.

So, like Hitler, like Stalin, Putin may well go down in history as one of the worst war criminals and genocidal dictators...hopefully he won't be responsible for the scale of death as those two authoritarian predecessors, but I agree with you that he poses that sort of danger.

As to the "borders" of "Russia", they've changed numerous times. To claim otherwise, so as to justify the ignoring the sovereign aspirations of others throughout history, well that's just another perversion to serve the propagandist.

[Kismet]

I don't understand why you watch these channels you hate so much.
Perhaps so you can complain here.

Both networks have correspondents & experts whose reporting & analysis I seek & trust.
Clapper's not one of them. I expect the hosts to at least know the names of the subjects they're discussing.

Perhaps you'd prefer looney tune Maria Bartiromo on Faux News laughably accusing Biden of orchestrating events in Russia to distract from Hunter Biden situation.

somehow we never hear that kind of criticism from you

[Typical Lax Dad]

I don't understand why you watch these channels you hate so much.
Perhaps so you can complain here.

Both networks have correspondents & experts whose reporting & analysis I seek & trust.
Clapper's not one of them. I expect the hosts to at least know the names of the subjects they're discussing.

Perhaps you'd prefer looney tune Maria Bartiromo on Faux News laughably accusing Biden of orchestrating events in Russia to distract from Hunter Biden situation.

somehow we never hear that kind of criticism from you

That’s only on when he’s not watching.

[youthathletics]

Seems there may have been slight of hand / deception this weekend. Attack from Belarus in play? https://apnews.com/article/prigozhin-be ... bfd0a2e18c

[old salt]

I don't understand why you watch these channels you hate so much.
Perhaps so you can complain here.

Both networks have correspondents & experts whose reporting & analysis I seek & trust.
Clapper's not one of them. I expect the hosts to at least know the names of the subjects they're discussing.

Perhaps you'd prefer looney tune Maria Bartiromo on Faux News laughably accusing Biden of orchestrating events in Russia to distract from Hunter Biden situation.

somehow we never hear that kind of criticism from you

That’s only on when he’s not watching.

If it were not for you, I would not even know about it.