All Things Russia & Ukraine

[cradleandshoot]

Well, I disagree, at least in nuance, with a fan on what the 'right' policy should be regarding Ukraine and for that matter any other country that wants to get its act together, reduce corruption and turn toward a pluralistic, democratic West and away from quasi-religious nationalism/fascism kleptocracy.

Where we differ is arms. The NeoCon solution is: arm factions and countries and/or use US Troops to get what you think you want. I'm all for supporting democracy and chasing away Fascism. The correct way, imho, is trade and economic pressures.

Maybe someone with their head stuck somewhere, but the rest of us understand that not all of the Ukrainians share all of our pluralistic values, heck, a big chunk of Americans apparently don't as well!

Hard to throw stones at anyone when American Republicans in office right now are spouting "replacement theory".

IMO the 64 thousand dollar question is what is the end game in this war? It seems apparent that neither side can win outright. So do they roll with the status quo of bombing Ukraine into a pile of ruble? These 2 nations are trying to replay the futility of WW1 all over again.

[a fan]

Well, I disagree, at least in nuance, with a fan on what the 'right' policy should be regarding Ukraine and for that matter any other country that wants to get its act together, reduce corruption and turn toward a pluralistic, democratic West and away from quasi-religious nationalism/fascism kleptocracy.

Where we differ is arms. The NeoCon solution is: arm factions and countries and/or use US Troops to get what you think you want. I'm all for supporting democracy and chasing away Fascism. The correct way, imho, is trade and economic pressures.

Maybe someone with their head stuck somewhere, but the rest of us understand that not all of the Ukrainians share all of our pluralistic values, heck, a big chunk of Americans apparently don't as well!

Hard to throw stones at anyone when American Republicans in office right now are spouting "replacement theory".

IMO the 64 thousand dollar question is what is the end game in this war? It seems apparent that neither side can win outright. So do they roll with the status quo of bombing Ukraine into a pile of ruble? These 2 nations are trying to replay the futility of WW1 all over again.

There isn't an endgame. We haven't had one for Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan......and on and on. It's why I think the NeoCon path is stupid and fully insane. We never learn....doesn't matter how many times we keep making this mistake, we keep right on doing it.

It's like Trickle down. No matter how many times it does the opposite of what it claims? Millions of Americans who aren't rich support it.

We'll never catch on. You and I are on the same page: Putin won't give up until he's dead because he can't surrender or give back the land.

THIS is is why Obama didn't arm Ukraine---all the unforeseen consequences that no one is wise enough to see. And he was HAMMERED for it by Republicans. They had their chance to support Obama, and to keep us out of this....they didn't do that.

And don't get me wrong.....if Trump was in office right now? Many Dems would be complaining about our support. Folks have a habit of forgetting that if the Dems held the line on the Iraq War vote, it would have failed.

[cradleandshoot]

Well, I disagree, at least in nuance, with a fan on what the 'right' policy should be regarding Ukraine and for that matter any other country that wants to get its act together, reduce corruption and turn toward a pluralistic, democratic West and away from quasi-religious nationalism/fascism kleptocracy.

Where we differ is arms. The NeoCon solution is: arm factions and countries and/or use US Troops to get what you think you want. I'm all for supporting democracy and chasing away Fascism. The correct way, imho, is trade and economic pressures.

Maybe someone with their head stuck somewhere, but the rest of us understand that not all of the Ukrainians share all of our pluralistic values, heck, a big chunk of Americans apparently don't as well!

Hard to throw stones at anyone when American Republicans in office right now are spouting "replacement theory".

IMO the 64 thousand dollar question is what is the end game in this war? It seems apparent that neither side can win outright. So do they roll with the status quo of bombing Ukraine into a pile of ruble? These 2 nations are trying to replay the futility of WW1 all over again.

There isn't an endgame. We haven't had one for Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan......and on and on. It's why I think the NeoCon path is stupid and fully insane. We never learn....doesn't matter how many times we keep making this mistake, we keep right on doing it.

It's like Trickle down. No matter how many times it does the opposite of what it claims? Millions of Americans who aren't rich support it.

We'll never catch on. You and I are on the same page: Putin won't give up until he's dead because he can't surrender or give back the land.

THIS is is why Obama didn't arm Ukraine---all the unforeseen consequences that no one is wise enough to see. And he was HAMMERED for it by Republicans. They had their chance to support Obama, and to keep us out of this....they didn't do that.

And don't get me wrong.....if Trump was in office right now? Many Dems would be complaining about our support. Folks have a habit of forgetting that if the Dems held the line on the Iraq War vote, it would have failed.

What is really sad is the innocent Ukrainian people are suffering through this war with no end in sight. My only solution is get rid of Putin via any means necessary. Then both sides can claim victory and maybe life in Ukraine can eventually get back to normal if that is possible.

[Typical Lax Dad]

Yay Ukraine!

Wait, Uhm, could you cover those Nazi symbols, please?

https://www.racket.news/p/cover-those-n ... ols-please

Nazis for Ukraine:

Where were your Nazis for Trump links?

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article ... eople.html

https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists ... mn-se-cupp

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/ ... o-call-out

Outraged!!

Odd you and the left's Nazi Lookout missed all these incidents before updating your "Pray for Ukraine" Facebook profiles.
Must be because it's just "a few fringe elements." And such a "complex" and "thorny" history."


Anti-Kremlin Group Involved in Border Raid Is Led by a Neo-Nazi:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/05/26 ... raine-news



Kyiv to name street for Ukrainian Nazi collaborator after public vote:
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemi ... cle-738940


Neo-Nazi terror threat grows as Ukraine fighters jailed in France:
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/05/09/neo- ... in-france/

Deh American?

[MDlaxfan76]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

[MDlaxfan76]

Well, I disagree, at least in nuance, with a fan on what the 'right' policy should be regarding Ukraine and for that matter any other country that wants to get its act together, reduce corruption and turn toward a pluralistic, democratic West and away from quasi-religious nationalism/fascism kleptocracy.

Where we differ is arms. The NeoCon solution is: arm factions and countries and/or use US Troops to get what you think you want. I'm all for supporting democracy and chasing away Fascism. The correct way, imho, is trade and economic pressures.

Maybe someone with their head stuck somewhere, but the rest of us understand that not all of the Ukrainians share all of our pluralistic values, heck, a big chunk of Americans apparently don't as well!

Hard to throw stones at anyone when American Republicans in office right now are spouting "replacement theory".

As I said, nuance.

[old salt]

------do you not remember all the criticism that your party (and posters at the Forum) heaved at Obama 24/7 for "not doing anything about Crimea or Ukraine"? Mocking his sanctions? Mocking Hillary for trying to pull Putin down a far wiser and more profitable path?

You guys were all over Obama. Putin was playing chess, Obama checkers----remember that? You wanted action-----to step in, and stand up to Putin. And Obama stuck to economic sanctions, making the correct move, and staying the F out of it. Did you cheer? Did Republicans Cheer? Hell no. You guys were all over him for "doing it wrong". I remember it well, and was the ONLY poster to stick up for him for doing it RIGHT, and staying the F out of it, not our problem.

Trump shows up? What does he do? He starts sending arms and training to Ukraine. Now if I go back and look, will I find your complaints? Discussions of supporting Nazis?

What ? I was complaining about all the US forces & heavy weapons we were shipping back to defend NATO's E flank after the 2014 annexation of Crimea & Donbas incursions, when our NATO partners were doing much less. I saw that as a way to reassure out nervous NATO allies & deter Putin from threatening them.

I stayed mum on the military support to Ukraine issue until after the RNC convention in 2016, when Trump was accused of watering down the platform by HRC's Russia hoax machine. I pointed out that they were accusing Trump of abandoning Ukraine, when the RNC platform still called for military support to Ukraine, in less specific terms, while the DNC did not even address the issue.

Then later, when Trump was accused of withholding (rather than delaying) the second tranche of Javelins, I pointed out that Trump had sent lethal defensive aid, when Obama had not & HRC's campaign platform did not even address it.

I still maintain that the limited defensive aid Trump sent was not sufficient to prompt Putin to invade.
I saw it as a way to stop the separatists progress in the Donbas.
It obviously failed to deter Putin after Zelensky was elected & vowed to seek EU & NATO membership.
Without it, the invasion would likely have succeeded, like all the experts were predicting it would.

I was against US involvement from the jump in 2014. I only addressed what Obama did (& HRC campaigned on) when Trump was being accused of witholding aid by the Russia hoaxers. You sometimes lose sense of time in your retrospectives.

[a fan]

What ? I was complaining about all the US forces & heavy weapons we were shipping back to defend NATO's E flank after the 2014 annexation of Crimea & Donbas incursions, when our NATO partners were doing much less.

Oh, that wasn't you. It was other posters who have since left.....no point in naming them.

Then later, when Trump was accused of withholding (rather than delaying) the second tranche of Javelins, I pointed out that Trump had sent lethal defensive aid, when Obama had not & HRC's campaign platform did not even address it.

Yes. Remember all of this.

I still maintain that the limited defensive aid Trump sent was not sufficient to prompt Putin to invade.

And I agree.....my view is that he got the ball rolling, and Biden cinched by promising more aid. THAT is what triggered his decision. My opinion, you may disagree. It matches all the mile markers perfectly.....especially when you consider that other events folks are claimed trigger the invasion......didn't. Speculation, in the end.

I was against US involvement from the jump in 2014. I only addressed what Obama did (& HRC campaigned on) when Trump was being accused of witholding aid by the Russia hoaxers. You sometimes lose sense of time in your retrospectives.

I'm confident I misremember at times, as we all do. But I remember all of your views on this stuff......much of which was on this forum, and we can look up and check. We're good....my comment wasn't directed at you.

[old salt]

Roger that. Thanks.

[kramerica.inc]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

[Typical Lax Dad]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

How expensive would it be if we had to send in our guys? This is money well spent. Discovering that Russia is as toothless and beat down as the old man in the back room in Cambodia that is brought out to give a BJ to Americans getting a hot face towel and a shave….it’s a fraction of what we would be spending

[NattyBohChamps04]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

If we can spare billions in fraudulent PPP loans to businesses, billions in subsidies to the biggest companies in the world, we can spare a billions to testing out military hardware against one of our biggest adversaries without putting American lives in danger. All while debilitating them in every aspect.

Biggest win in recent history. But feel free to moan and groan. How much wastesful spending happened uder the previous R administration without your b!tching about it? Much more. LMAO, so pathetic.

[kramerica.inc]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

How expensive would it be IF we had to send in our guys? Thia is money well spent. Discovering that Russia is a toothless and beat down as the old man in the back room in Cambodia that is brought out to give a BJ to Americans getting a hot face towel and a shave….

Big “If.”

And great mention of the PPP.

Yes, all good whataboutism, boys- Keep going!

Here’s hoping we can let another UN ally take the financial lead this year.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr ... 20billion).

[Typical Lax Dad]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

How expensive would it be IF we had to send in our guys? Thia is money well spent. Discovering that Russia is a toothless and beat down as the old man in the back room in Cambodia that is brought out to give a BJ to Americans getting a hot face towel and a shave….

Big “If.”

And great mention of the PPP.

Yes, all good whataboutism, boys- Keep going!

Here’s hoping we can let another UN ally take the financial lead this year.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr ... 20billion).

You were a “take the fight to Iraq or Afghanistan and fight them over there instead of over here” kind of guy….what about Hunter and Hillary…..you sad.

PPP: https://smallbiztrends.com/2020/08/ppp-fraud.html

[kramerica.inc]

I wasn’t a big “take the fight to them. guy.” Actually, more of a “what are we doing there? guy.”

And I really prefer not putting our nose into shiite that will never change and doesn’t effect our daily life here in the US.

But I guess, perhaps Putin’s unchecked last-gasp aggression to the European equivalent of Rhode Island might lead to scary things somewhere else, or perhaps over here in the US one day. Maybe.

But probably not.

And any other secondary chem warfare, trade war, or economic issue with Russia can’t possibly be any worse than what China and our last 2 presidents have done to us.

But sure, let’s continue to send 10x more money to Ukraine than anyone else who supposedly has a vested interest in how this plays out.

Because… why? “What if?”

[Farfromgeneva]

What ? I was complaining about all the US forces & heavy weapons we were shipping back to defend NATO's E flank after the 2014 annexation of Crimea & Donbas incursions, when our NATO partners were doing much less.

Oh, that wasn't you. It was other posters who have since left.....no point in naming them.

Then later, when Trump was accused of withholding (rather than delaying) the second tranche of Javelins, I pointed out that Trump had sent lethal defensive aid, when Obama had not & HRC's campaign platform did not even address it.

Yes. Remember all of this.

I still maintain that the limited defensive aid Trump sent was not sufficient to prompt Putin to invade.

And I agree.....my view is that he got the ball rolling, and Biden cinched by promising more aid. THAT is what triggered his decision. My opinion, you may disagree. It matches all the mile markers perfectly.....especially when you consider that other events folks are claimed trigger the invasion......didn't. Speculation, in the end.

I was against US involvement from the jump in 2014. I only addressed what Obama did (& HRC campaigned on) when Trump was being accused of witholding aid by the Russia hoaxers. You sometimes lose sense of time in your retrospectives.

I'm confident I misremember at times, as we all do. But I remember all of your views on this stuff......much of which was on this forum, and we can look up and check. We're good....my comment wasn't directed at you.

Wouldn’t be so defensive all the time if there wasn’t something being projected in essence of spirit and philosophy.

[Farfromgeneva]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

How expensive would it be if we had to send in our guys? This is money well spent. Discovering that Russia is as toothless and beat down as the old man in the back room in Cambodia that is brought out to give a BJ to Americans getting a hot face towel and a shave….it’s a fraction of what we would be spending

Now that paints a picture!

[Farfromgeneva]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

How expensive would it be IF we had to send in our guys? Thia is money well spent. Discovering that Russia is a toothless and beat down as the old man in the back room in Cambodia that is brought out to give a BJ to Americans getting a hot face towel and a shave….

Big “If.”

And great mention of the PPP.

Yes, all good whataboutism, boys- Keep going!

Here’s hoping we can let another UN ally take the financial lead this year.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr ... 20billion).

Not sure about this specific string but a default “wahtaboutism” when asking for consistency of position or some broader analysis of the differences and why one wouldn’t be inconsistent is not unreasonable in a multitouch community.

Not just you, I’m sick of seeing that term tossed around - just a conversation stopper because it’s not serious 99% of the time. And I know some of philosophical adversaries here use it too (Just landed on you here but it’s always been a stupid term to me and meant to dunk on another person). We know who’s often hypocritical and who isn’t by this point.

And…nonlinear does not equal inconsistent (in case anyone wants to go down that path)

[MDlaxfan76]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

Let me say it more bluntly: How about before we declare defeat, we support Ukraine winning?

I don't think there's any real mystery why this war isn't supported by MAGA sorts.
It would be wildly supported by them if it was their GOP President, and they'd be crowing about the success of the effort, the 'efficiency' of the effort.
But it's a Dem POTUS.

However, it goes a little deeper to understand why so many of these folks think it's actually ok if the fascist kleptocracy of Russia invades one of the most productive "bread basket" regions of the world, which had begun to embrace democracy and Western pluralist values (albeit jaggedly)...why they excuse it and say it's none of our business...IMO, they're secretly in most cases, openly in others, cheering on the white christian nationalism that Russia pretends to be all about. I say pretends because it's Russia's own version of populism, but it's really about the kleptocracy. The people are fed this propaganda.

I'd ask those who are rational enough to question and change their views on topics over time as they learn more (most of us)... to begin do so now. Is Putin really the "genius" you were told about? Who told you...? Maybe take a look at the reasons why you found that actually appealing...are those reasons you really agree with, or did it just tap into some feelings you'd like to reconsider? Was it the anti-islamic feelings that seemed quite reasonable in the wake of 9-11? Was it something else?

[Farfromgeneva]

How about we give the Ukrainians a chance to out perform these expectations of futility? After all, they have blown away all prior expectations of resistance and resilience.

Sounds good.

And we can definitely spare another $77 Billion now that the debt ceiling has been raised.

Let me say it more bluntly: How about before we declare defeat, we support Ukraine winning?

I don't think there's any real mystery why this war isn't supported by MAGA sorts.
It would be wildly supported by them if it was their GOP President, and they'd be crowing about the success of the effort, the 'efficiency' of the effort.
But it's a Dem POTUS.

However, it goes a little deeper to understand why so many of these folks think it's actually ok if the fascist kleptocracy of Russia invades one of the most productive "bread basket" regions of the world, which had begun to embrace democracy and Western pluralist values (albeit jaggedly)...why they excuse it and say it's none of our business...IMO, they're secretly in most cases, openly in others, cheering on the white christian nationalism that Russia pretends to be all about. I say pretends because it's Russia's own version of populism, but it's really about the kleptocracy. The people are fed this propaganda.

I'd ask those who are rational enough to question and change their views on topics over time as they learn more (most of us)... to begin do so now. Is Putin really the "genius" you were told about? Who told you...? Maybe take a look at the reasons why you found that actually appealing...are those reasons you really agree with, or did it just tap into some feelings you'd like to reconsider? Was it the anti-islamic feelings that seemed quite reasonable in the wake of 9-11? Was it something else?

Classic lyrics from the end of a song I will continue to drop:

You can be next in line, and signed, and still be writing rhymes and broke
You would rather have a Lexus, some justice, a dream or some substance?
A Beamer, a necklace or freedom?