(Presumed) Impact of Grad Student/Senior Heavy Rosters

[PulpExposure]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

So tough to compete for them that they put 6 teams in the NCAA tournament last year and had 2 of the quarterfinalists (and the national runner up)? Sure....

The extra year other teams got didn't hurt them last year. I doubt it's somehow only manifested to hurt them this year or for whatever time frame you're thinking. And remember a lot of the Yale kids at least took off semesters so they could extend their stay at the university...in essence red shirting themselves.

[wgdsr]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

So tough to compete for them that they put 6 teams in the NCAA tournament last year and had 2 of the quarterfinalists (and the national runner up)? Sure....

The extra year didn't hurt them last year. I doubt it's somehow only manifested to hurt them this year.

water finds its level. in a non-ivy year, super team duke got blown out in the semis to a mostly home grown terp team. lost in memory somewhat is sowers and o'neill on the same att line et.al. putting up 4 or 5 goals.

there's something to be said for having your tribe all in. & it's probably not a coincidence the ivy has about ~50?% of the 5 stars/top 25 coming in. including some decommits to the ivy. have they ever done that before?

the p5s will try to stay ahead of that game with adds, of course. will be interesting to see how it goes.

[Farfromgeneva]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

So tough to compete for them that they put 6 teams in the NCAA tournament last year and had 2 of the quarterfinalists (and the national runner up)? Sure....

The extra year didn't hurt them last year. I doubt it's somehow only manifested to hurt them this year.

water finds its level. in a non-ivy year, super team duke got blown out in the semis to a mostly home grown terp team. lost in memory somewhat is sowers and o'neill on the same att line et.al. putting up 4 or 5 goals.

there's something to be said for having your tribe all in. & it's probably not a coincidence the ivy has about ~50?% of the 5 stars/top 25 coming in. including some decommits to the ivy. have they ever done that before?

the p5s will try to stay ahead of that game with adds, of course. will be interesting to see how it goes.

Up until Covid we don’t really have evidence that HCs can manage meaningful importation of talent. And one year or two doesn’t provide much evidence. It’s literally an undeveloped skill for all coaches. Declaring victory or failure over such small amount of evidence is dumb. When I hear every coach has to do it because it’s big business I see a person who was buying into SPACs and Crypto with their stimulus checks and paying min monthly amount on their CC balances…

[PulpExposure]

there's something to be said for having your tribe all in. & it's probably not a coincidence the ivy has about ~50?% of the 5 stars/top 25 coming in. including some decommits to the ivy. have they ever done that before?

Not to my knowledge - it's pretty notable. However, it also makes a ton of sense...there's no real career for lacrosse after college, so to me it would make a ton of sense for kids to leverage their elite lax skills and get into better colleges than you otherwise may be able to get into.

A few years ago there was a kid who decommitted from Princeton to go to Maryland, because he wanted to play for a "better lax program". Even as a proud Maryland alum, I'm like...why would you do that. Maryland is a good school, but it's no shame for me to say it's not Princeton.

He's now at Rollins for what it's worth...

[jersey shore lax]

there's something to be said for having your tribe all in. & it's probably not a coincidence the ivy has about ~50?% of the 5 stars/top 25 coming in. including some decommits to the ivy. have they ever done that before?

Not to my knowledge - it's pretty notable. However, it also makes a ton of sense...there's no real career for lacrosse after college, so to me it would make a ton of sense for kids to leverage their elite lax skills and get into better colleges than you otherwise may be able to get into.

A few years ago there was a kid who decommitted from Princeton to go to Maryland, because he wanted to play for a "better lax program". Even as a proud Maryland alum, I'm like...why would you do that. Maryland is a good school, but it's no shame for me to say it's not Princeton.

He's now at Rollins for what it's worth...

could also be money, while the Ivy's do not give out athletic scholarships' and they do have very generous grant and aid that is need based it might still cost a lot of money to go to an Ivy where as other schools that not only have athletic aid and in state tuition they also have a lower bar for academic aid.

Also a kid could be in over his head at some schools even though they have been admitted to the school they may feel that they can not keep up with school and be a D1 athlete at the same time. Also a kid might want to stay closer to home.

Many factors in a decision being made by a 17 year old.

I know stories over the past few years where kids made decisions to de-commit or transferred because of a girl friend, a sick parent and not wanting to be away from home. I am sure we all know a few of these stories.

[Farfromgeneva]

there's something to be said for having your tribe all in. & it's probably not a coincidence the ivy has about ~50?% of the 5 stars/top 25 coming in. including some decommits to the ivy. have they ever done that before?

Not to my knowledge - it's pretty notable. However, it also makes a ton of sense...there's no real career for lacrosse after college, so to me it would make a ton of sense for kids to leverage their elite lax skills and get into better colleges than you otherwise may be able to get into.

A few years ago there was a kid who decommitted from Princeton to go to Maryland, because he wanted to play for a "better lax program". Even as a proud Maryland alum, I'm like...why would you do that. Maryland is a good school, but it's no shame for me to say it's not Princeton.

He's now at Rollins for what it's worth...

Rollins! Everyone I knew who went there enjoyed it but spent a lot of time being “medicinal” and watching the weather channel. (Fine college but I visited twice and it was like Jerry and his frisbee crew in PCU except dressed like boarding school kids)

I’m same page with my younger kids. Son in 4th grade I had been indoctrinating him effectively since birth but he’s been exposed to Princeton through a gentleman who’s son played there a few years back and shared a kind fit with him. Fast profession too. Started out early this lacrosse season for him with “dad can I go to Hobart for grad school after Princeton or go to Princeton for grad school after I play football and lacrosse at Hobart?” By end of season (probably being exposed to the fine group in the fantasy league here) he’s going “daddy what if I just went to Princeton?” Obviously my answer is/was “sold, but you have to do the things you need to do in order to do the things you want to do but if you can earn those options such as Princeton then I’m all in”.

At least he still thinks Syracuse stole out colors and the Finger Lakes would be a lot more lame if it were just Cornell and Cuse there. He’s also dogmatically of the opinion that mid Atlantic’s kids are skilled but too soft compared w NY State kids so I haven’t totally lost him yet.

[Farfromgeneva]

there's something to be said for having your tribe all in. & it's probably not a coincidence the ivy has about ~50?% of the 5 stars/top 25 coming in. including some decommits to the ivy. have they ever done that before?

Not to my knowledge - it's pretty notable. However, it also makes a ton of sense...there's no real career for lacrosse after college, so to me it would make a ton of sense for kids to leverage their elite lax skills and get into better colleges than you otherwise may be able to get into.

A few years ago there was a kid who decommitted from Princeton to go to Maryland, because he wanted to play for a "better lax program". Even as a proud Maryland alum, I'm like...why would you do that. Maryland is a good school, but it's no shame for me to say it's not Princeton.

He's now at Rollins for what it's worth...

could also be money, while the Ivy's do not give out athletic scholarships' and they do have very generous grant and aid that is need based it might still cost a lot of money to go to an Ivy where as other schools that not only have athletic aid and in state tuition they also have a lower bar for academic aid.

Also a kid could be in over his head at some schools even though they have been admitted to the school they may feel that they can not keep up with school and be a D1 athlete at the same time. Also a kid might want to stay closer to home.

Many factors in a decision being made by a 17 year old.

I know stories over the past few years where kids made decisions to de-commit or transferred because of a girl friend, a sick parent and not wanting to be away from home. I am sure we all know a few of these stories.

Ultimately college is one of the last significant places where one can choose their environment in order to optimize their opportunity in life. After that control of ones environment declines rapidly in life as folks learn between 25-35 and plans change how little we can control.

That being said transferring for a girlfriend is not something I’d allow and I almost transferred (between Tufts and Wesleyan) due to not being allowed to pledge (officially, as far as the admin in Geneva is aware) and having a girlfriend who graduated in NYC. I can be crazy dumb but that would’ve been so stupid notwithstanding them fact that most people would agree it would’ve been a perception upgrade on the sheepskin.

[PulpExposure]

could also be money, while the Ivy's do not give out athletic scholarships' and they do have very generous grant and aid that is need based it might still cost a lot of money to go to an Ivy where as other schools that not only have athletic aid and in state tuition they also have a lower bar for academic aid.

Also a kid could be in over his head at some schools even though they have been admitted to the school they may feel that they can not keep up with school and be a D1 athlete at the same time. Also a kid might want to stay closer to home.

Many factors in a decision being made by a 17 year old.

I know stories over the past few years where kids made decisions to de-commit or transferred because of a girl friend, a sick parent and not wanting to be away from home. I am sure we all know a few of these stories.

Yeah I mean there are a lot of potential confounding factors when a high school kid decommits, but he was a NewJersey kid (who boarded at Hun, of course), so he was out of state for Maryland...and if you pay full freight at either school, the difference is like 20k a year (53k a year for Maryland, 76k for Princeton). He came from money (see Hun school...which as a NJ guy you know how stupid expensive that is). He wasn't good enough to get money at Maryland, or it turns out, even see the field at all. No shame in that of course. He played in the same club program as my kid so the inside story on him was well known - it literally was "I want to play at a better lax school."

Ultimately college is one of the last significant places where one can shoo se their environment in order to optimize their opportunity in life.

So my oldest and middle kids are a junior/sophomore in high school and we're in the college visit phase now. And that's exactly what I keep telling them. All the schools they're looking at and visiting are good schools, and I tell them you will get out of it what you put in. What they need to look at is...is this the place I want to be? I mean yes you can transfer (I did!), so it's not a permanent decision, but you really do get to choose what works for you.

Interestingly where I live in NJ, our town has two high schools. And kids can pick which high school they want to go to, so they got to make that choice (a microcosm version, sure), already.

[Farfromgeneva]

could also be money, while the Ivy's do not give out athletic scholarships' and they do have very generous grant and aid that is need based it might still cost a lot of money to go to an Ivy where as other schools that not only have athletic aid and in state tuition they also have a lower bar for academic aid.

Also a kid could be in over his head at some schools even though they have been admitted to the school they may feel that they can not keep up with school and be a D1 athlete at the same time. Also a kid might want to stay closer to home.

Many factors in a decision being made by a 17 year old.

I know stories over the past few years where kids made decisions to de-commit or transferred because of a girl friend, a sick parent and not wanting to be away from home. I am sure we all know a few of these stories.

Yeah I mean there are a lot of potential confounding factors when a high school kid decommits, but he was a NewJersey kid (who boarded at Hun, of course), so he was out of state for Maryland...and if you pay full freight at either school, the difference is like 20k a year (53k a year for Maryland, 76k for Princeton). He came from money (see Hun school...which as a NJ guy you know how stupid expensive that is). He wasn't good enough to get money at Maryland, or it turns out, even see the field at all. No shame in that of course. He played in the same club program as my kid so the inside story on him was well known - it literally was "I want to play at a better lax school."

Ultimately college is one of the last significant places where one can shoo se their environment in order to optimize their opportunity in life.

So my oldest and middle kids are a junior/sophomore in high school and we're in the college visit phase now. And that's exactly what I keep telling them. All the schools they're looking at and visiting are good schools, and I tell them you will get out of it what you put in. What they need to look at is...is this the place I want to be? I mean yes you can transfer (I did!), so it's not a permanent decision, but you really do get to choose what works for you.

Interestingly where I live in NJ, our town has two high schools. And kids can pick which high school they want to go to, so they got to make that choice (a microcosm version, sure), already.

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

[PulpExposure]

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

It's Cherry Hill (down south, outside of Philly). And as far as I can tell, complete anomaly.

[pcowlax]

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

It's Cherry Hill (down south, outside of Philly). And as far as I can tell, complete anomaly.

That is fascinating! I have never heard anything like that. 2 public high schools in town and kids are not divided geographically but can choose which one they want to go to??? Do they end up recruiting within their own town for public middle school kids? Do the drama teachers for both high schools show up at middle school plays and try to slide some NIL money to the lead's parents? That is such a wild and bizarre set up. My mother's family is from Burlington so I am very familiar with the Cherry Hill area but did not know that.

[wgdsr]

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

It's Cherry Hill (down south, outside of Philly). And as far as I can tell, complete anomaly.

they have it in my county in va. and an adjacent one. 17 or 18 high schools at least. all you have to do is provide the transportation and they have to have the capacity.

[GaitsRightHand]

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

It's Cherry Hill (down south, outside of Philly). And as far as I can tell, complete anomaly.

they have it in my county in va. and an adjacent one. 17 or 18 high schools at least. all you have to do is provide the transportation and they have to have the capacity.

This is widely known as "school of choice." Popular in the midwest. If you're in an area that has a few different high schools in a close vicinity- you can choose whichever school you'd like to attend. As you can imagine, school of choice HS's typically have better sports because they have a wider pool to choose from.

Had a kid commute 25 mins (3 towns away) just to go to the high school I previously coached at.

States with school of choice public high schools:
Arizona, Florida, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Louisiana, Colorado, Nevada and North Carolina.

[Farfromgeneva]

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

It's Cherry Hill (down south, outside of Philly). And as far as I can tell, complete anomaly.

Thanks and somewhat familiar w Cherry Hill (underwrote the mall debt once ages ago-best Asset owned by a weak B mall operator)-nice area congrats! Do you like that structure for the overall community - setting aside self interest for your kids? Or does it create meaningful imbalance(s) in your view?

[Farfromgeneva]

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

It's Cherry Hill (down south, outside of Philly). And as far as I can tell, complete anomaly.

That is fascinating! I have never heard anything like that. 2 public high schools in town and kids are not divided geographically but can choose which one they want to go to??? Do they end up recruiting within their own town for public middle school kids? Do the drama teachers for both high schools show up at middle school plays and try to slide some NIL money to the lead's parents? That is such a wild and bizarre set up. My mother's family is from Burlington so I am very familiar with the Cherry Hill area but did not know that.

My first hire would be the ballet teacher in grown ups too. Boom now you’ve got lockdown on the straight male dancer community and it’s supporters.

[Farfromgeneva]

Is that S/W Jersey or Bergen Co/Montclair or similar in the greater NYC area? Interesting that you can choose.

It's Cherry Hill (down south, outside of Philly). And as far as I can tell, complete anomaly.

they have it in my county in va. and an adjacent one. 17 or 18 high schools at least. all you have to do is provide the transportation and they have to have the capacity.

This is widely known as "school of choice." Popular in the midwest. If you're in an area that has a few different high schools in a close vicinity- you can choose whichever school you'd like to attend. As you can imagine, school of choice HS's typically have better sports because they have a wider pool to choose from.

Had a kid commute 25 mins (3 towns away) just to go to the high school I previously coached at.

States with school of choice public high schools:
Arizona, Florida, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Louisiana, Colorado, Nevada and North Carolina.

Learn something new everyday. Thanks!

[PulpExposure]

That is fascinating! I have never heard anything like that. 2 public high schools in town and kids are not divided geographically but can choose which one they want to go to??? Do they end up recruiting within their own town for public middle school kids? Do the drama teachers for both high schools show up at middle school plays and try to slide some NIL money to the lead's parents? That is such a wild and bizarre set up. My mother's family is from Burlington so I am very familiar with the Cherry Hill area but did not know that.

That's exactly what happens, and the youth programs feed into it. If you want theater, you go to West because they really focus on it. East is stronger academically. It's easiest to see in sports - East is better at swimming; in fact it's one of the best swimming programs in the NJ. Not counting the COVID year where they didn't have a tournament, the girls program has been in the state finals every year since 2016, and won multiple state championships during that time (including this year). Boys is not quite at that level, but also multiple championships. So if you swim in the Cherry Hill area and are serious about it, you go to East. Likewise with West and football.

My oldest picked East for the lacrosse program as it's stronger...not great, but stronger, and definitely building. And the kids coming through the program largely will pick East if lacrosse is important to them. But not always (part of my answer below to FFG). But the girls lacrosse program at West is outstanding, and it stinks at East. It's kind of funny.

This is widely known as "school of choice." Popular in the midwest. If you're in an area that has a few different high schools in a close vicinity- you can choose whichever school you'd like to attend. As you can imagine, school of choice HS's typically have better sports because they have a wider pool to choose from.

Had a kid commute 25 mins (3 towns away) just to go to the high school I previously coached at.

States with school of choice public high schools:
Arizona, Florida, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, Wisconsin, Louisiana, Colorado, Nevada and North Carolina.

I've really only been exposed to the education systems in Maryland (where I grew up) and NJ (where my kids are), so I had no idea this was broader than that! Thanks.

Thanks and somewhat familiar w Cherry Hill (underwrote the mall debt once ages ago-best Asset owned by a weak B mall operator)-nice area congrats! Do you like that structure for the overall community - setting aside self interest for your kids? Or does it create meaningful imbalance(s) in your view?

So it's a weird split. West has 1400 kids, East has 2100 kids. East is seen as much more academically rigorous, but honestly outside of South Jersey, people think they're both the same (my kids go to East fwiw). But it does create a lot of weird rivalries; kids you grow up with will go to the other school, and you all hang out together during the summer, so they want to beat the snot out of each other in sports so they can brag with each other.

It also bifurcates talent, so like the East lacrosse program has by and large a really good base with a strong FO kid and defense right now. Unfortunately the best attack talent went to West. So West can score but can't really stop anyone, and East has issues on offense. Kind of stinks.

If they all went to the same school it'd be a very very good SJ lacrosse program (it wouldn't be a NJ prep like Bosco or an MIAA team by any stretch but it'd be competitive with a lot of other teams from other public leagues).

It sort of splits the community, but in the end, it's not the biggest deal.

[pcowlax]

Fascinating, thanks for the elaboration. Here in CT, for any town with multiple high schools, they are split geographically. Now, you are actually allowed to pay to go a public outside of your town or, I presume, one inside your town but not your district. This is, as far as I know, tens of thousands of bucks however so it certainly is not commonly done.

[Farfromgeneva]

Really looking forward to 2025 when the extra COVID years are over and we are left with four year players. This whole transfer/fifth year has been very unfair to the Ivy’s and Patriot league teams since they don’t non-injury redshirt nor do they allow fifth year transfers.

Yes Army made a run but remember almost every one of their players plays a year at Army prep (PG) before starting at West Point. Same with Navy. As a result their players get that “red shirt” years that the other Patriot and Ivy’s don’t get the benefit of.

As a Hound fan it’s tough to compete with teams the past three years that are able to bring in studs from other programs for that extra year. Just look At Georgetown and Rutgers as examples. Same with Hopkins and MD and Duke. Will be nice to play those teams again on a fairly even playing field.

Army acceptance rate 10.7 %
Navy acceptance rate 8.4%
Loyola acceptance rate 84.2 %

You shouldn't even be in PL. And plus you had at least 5 grad students this year.

Don't be like that. It's so unbecoming. Loyola was accepted unanimously into the PL. And is following all the academic and admissions rules set forth by all the charter institutions, including Army.

Per those rules- Loyola does have graduate students. But cannot take in 5th year students from other schools. It can only extend Loyola undergrad students into their graduate program. Used for redshirt injuries only, before Covid.

You have complained for years Army is at a disadvantage because it didn't have older students. It appears people have finally noticed your favorite team has a way around it too.

Army had at least 10 players who are five years out of high school (two seniors who went to Army Prep and at least 6 juniors who, in effect, are "double redshirts" because they first went to Army Prep and started at Army in 2019 - 2020, making this their fourth season). Along the way it appears they've taken off one or more semesters to ensure that they'll get a 5th season next year at Army -- meaning next year Army will have a core of guys in 2024 who are 6 years out of high school.

He’s always like that you just have to accept and lean into it or use the block function

[Farfromgeneva]

I think it is as much if not more a factor of having 23/24 year old men, whether transfers or homegrown, dominating rosters. Look at MD last year (such a large % of scoring from extra year guys - struggled to replace when they left) and the final four teams this year. Just a huge advantage to have that extra year of experience. It will be tough for the Ivies to compete for at least another year.

But after all this extra year nonsense washes out, the Ivies (and Army, Navy, etc) may be at an advantage. They are developing their younger talent while grad/5th year heavy teams are parking their younger stars on the bench. NCAA created a real mess with this policy, and there will be imbalances created over the course of several years.

Iatrogenics - harm caused by the healer