North Carolina 2023

[10stone5]

This may have been answered before, some pages back, but what coach was available who projects to be significantly superior to Breschi?

We were not surprised by Tillman, it was pretty darn clear that he was going to take Harvard to the top of the Ivies had he stayed, and the jump to UMD was a coup for them and him. Likewise, when Shea turned UVA down, Tiffany was clearly ascendant in the Ivies and nationally and brought his whole staff with him, an obvious fit for the situation.

Who really projects the way either of those guys did?

From a practical perspective, who is perhaps available in 3 years?

I'm not sure what his level of comfortability is at Delaware, but Ben DeLuca has been to the tournament 4 times in 8 years as a coach and has 1 Final Four, 2 Quarterfinals (one as a 2 seed, one upsetting a 2 seed), and nearly beat the #1 seed in the other. He took Delaware from being the cellar dweller of the CAA to dominating the conference and competing for 60 mins with the best teams in the tournament in the span of 3 years and he has successful experience at a big program from his time at Cornell.

DeLuca has it made in the shade with the Hens.

Less than zero reason to leave Newark in the near future.
Lots of tremendous recruits coming in.
Well paid I’m sure.

Eventually, the honeymoon ends,
but until then …

[Farfromgeneva]

This may have been answered before, some pages back, but what coach was available who projects to be significantly superior to Breschi?

We were not surprised by Tillman, it was pretty darn clear that he was going to take Harvard to the top of the Ivies had he stayed, and the jump to UMD was a coup for them and him. Likewise, when Shea turned UVA down, Tiffany was clearly ascendant in the Ivies and nationally and brought his whole staff with him, an obvious fit for the situation.

Who really projects the way either of those guys did?

From a practical perspective, who is perhaps available in 3 years?

I'm not sure what his level of comfortability is at Delaware, but Ben DeLuca has been to the tournament 4 times in 8 years as a coach and has 1 Final Four, 2 Quarterfinals (one as a 2 seed, one upsetting a 2 seed), and nearly beat the #1 seed in the other. He took Delaware from being the cellar dweller of the CAA to dominating the conference and competing for 60 mins with the best teams in the tournament in the span of 3 years and he has successful experience at a big program from his time at Cornell.

DeLuca has it made in the shade with the Hens.

Less than zero reason to leave Newark in the near future.
Lots of tremendous recruits coming in.
Well paid I’m sure.

Eventually, the honeymoon ends,
but until then …

Like Marr at Albany, get far enough along and the accrued bennies become handcuffs.

[jrn19]

It's near impossible to sustain a long run of success at a mid-major job.

Cannella had an amazing run from 02-12 at UMass with a Runner-Up, 3 Quarterfinals, undefeated regular season, and 6 tournaments in 11 years. They've been to the tournament once in 10 years since.

Nadelen had maybe the best run of success in the history of Towson from 2013-19. 1 Final Four, one Quarterfinal, got to #1 and hosted in 2019, 5 tournaments in 7 years. They're 19-29 since 2020

As mentioned above, Marr at Albany. Final Four in 2018, 3 Quarterfinals, 6 straight tournaments from 2013-18. Got to #1. 27-37 since 2019.

Zim had one incredible senior class and got to 4 straight tournaments from 06-09. Then 1 winning season in his final 7.

At DeLuca's same job...Delaware went to 4 NCAAT's from 2005-11, including the F4 in 07. In his final 6 years they were last in the CAA four times.

Right now he has things going incredibly well. They are bringing in a monster class relative to mid-major status in 2024. They're set up incredibly well in their conference and he's a great coach. But if you do want to try your hand at a big job again, you leave when your value is at its highest. His is pretty close to its peak right now. Eventually when the honeymoon does end...you're not gonna get hired anywhere. Just like no one is hiring Marr anymore and Nadelen is no longer top of the list for open jobs (which he did turn down a lot of.) Now if he wants to be a Cannella or Zim and stay there for the long haul, bless him. It's a good job and he'll last there. But he's a Top 5-10 coach in the country you could argue and has the resume and credentials to say he'd do great at a big time job. If he wants it, he needs to make his move in the next couple of years. The coaching cycle doesn't wait around for folks.

[Farfromgeneva]

It's near impossible to sustain a long run of success at a mid-major job.

Cannella had an amazing run from 02-12 at UMass with a Runner-Up, 3 Quarterfinals, undefeated regular season, and 6 tournaments in 11 years. They've been to the tournament once in 10 years since.

Nadelen had maybe the best run of success in the history of Towson from 2013-19. 1 Final Four, one Quarterfinal, got to #1 and hosted in 2019, 5 tournaments in 7 years. They're 19-29 since 2020

As mentioned above, Marr at Albany. Final Four in 2018, 3 Quarterfinals, 6 straight tournaments from 2013-18. Got to #1. 27-37 since 2019.

Zim had one incredible senior class and got to 4 straight tournaments from 06-09. Then 1 winning season in his final 7.

At DeLuca's same job...Delaware went to 4 NCAAT's from 2005-11, including the F4 in 07. In his final 6 years they were last in the CAA four times.

Right now he has things going incredibly well. They are bringing in a monster class relative to mid-major status in 2024. They're set up incredibly well in their conference and he's a great coach. But if you do want to try your hand at a big job again, you leave when your value is at its highest. His is pretty close to its peak right now. Eventually when the honeymoon does end...you're not gonna get hired anywhere. Just like no one is hiring Marr anymore and Nadelen is no longer top of the list for open jobs (which he did turn down a lot of.) Now if he wants to be a Cannella or Zim and stay there for the long haul, bless him. It's a good job and he'll last there. But he's a Top 5-10 coach in the country you could argue and has the resume and credentials to say he'd do great at a big time job. If he wants it, he needs to make his move in the next couple of years. The coaching cycle doesn't wait around for folks.

I’ve been thinking this about Cassesse prior to this season but looking back to 2020 the record isn’t that bad again after some flat years following his initial success. Seth Tierney as well.

But again state job bennies really ramp in years 6-10

[jrn19]

Cassesse has gotten it going pretty well again but a lot of that may be due to Sisselberger in what normally was a poor FOGO league. Nonetheless you get the player you reap the benefits. I also view PL jobs as a little different to the mid-majors though Lehigh is closer to that end than a Loyola or Army or Navy is (or at least “should be”)

Tierney dropped off and I think the thing that makes them worse or has gotten him criticism in a way those others haven’t is how often they haven’t even been consistent in their league; even when Cannella and Nadelen and Marr saw the drop off they remained competitive within the league and had chances to get to tournament. Hofstra has had 1 or 2 good years but largely been 4th or worse in a conference where they expend more far into lacrosse than the rest.

That ultimately is the key. Dominating a mid major league where most teams have similar resources put in and talent pools takes perfect mix of right class of players and coaching. Not like it is in bigger leagues. But if you can hang around as competitive in your league and give yourself chances, eventually the wheel should come back around. Cannella got back in 2018 with a really good team and had some good teams last few years. I think Nadelen will get it going, bringing the recruits back in. And if DeLuca chooses to stay as long as those guys have, even when this run peters out I’m sure he’ll have another.

But I would be intrigued to see him at a big job. Historically it’s been hard for UVA and UNC to both be good at the same time; ones peak is usually coinciding with another’s trough but he’s a guy who I could see really competing with Tiffany.

[Lewisfrederick]

UNC is an elite program that has won 5 National Championships with 3 different head coaches and been to 14 Final Fours in 4 different decades. UNC has been one of the most elite programs in the country every year since 1976, with the exception of a 10 year stretch from 1997-2006 and the last 7 years since 2017.
I hate it when people act like these last 7 seasons is the historical norm at UNC. From 1976-1996, UNC was a top 3 program in the country. We struggled from 1997-2006, however lets not act like that decade should be viewed as the standard. From 2007-2016 UNC was a top 5-8 program in the country again. Since 2017 we have fallen drastically.

Here is UNC's NCAA tournament seed every year since 1976. I will be the first to admit tournament seeding is not perfect, but I hate it when people say UNC was only an elite program for a decade. Cause that simply isn't true.

1976 - 5 Seed
1977 - 7 Seed
1978 - N/A
1979 - N/A
1980 - 5 Seed
1981 - 2 Seed
1982 - 1 Seed
1983 - 5 Seed
1984 - 5 Seed
1985 - 3 Seed
1986 - 5 Seed
1987 - 5 Seed
1988 - 3 Seed
1989 - 6 Seed
1990 - 4 Seed
1991 - 1 Seed
1992 - 2 Seed
1993 - 1 Seed
1994 - 4 Seed
1995 - Unseeded
1996 - 4 Seed
1997 - N/A
1998 - Unseeded
1999 - N/A
2000 - N/A
2001 - N/A
2002 - N/A
2003 - N/A
2004 - 8 Seed
2005 - N/A
2006 - N/A
2007 - 8 Seed
2008 - 4 Seed
2009 - 6 Seed
2010 - 4 Seed
2011 - 8 Seed
2012 - 8 Seed
2013 - 5 Seed
2014 - Unseeded
2015 - 3 Seed
2016 - Unseeded
2017 - Unseeded
2018 - N/A
2019 - N/A
2021 - 1 Seed
2022 - N/A
2023 - N/A

Many UNC fans rightfully don't believe we should be settling for the standard set the last 7 years when we are clearly capable of being better then that.

So the exception being 17 of the last 25yrs right? You’ve carved out 68% of the most current and contemporary quarter century from your analysis. I have to ask, do you work in commercial title or trade credit insurance?

17 of the last 45 years. And the last 7 seasons, we had just as much talent as any program in the country. I would say maybe you have a point regarding our inability to compete if we weren’t still consistently bringing in so many elite recruits. Heck, JB couldn’t bring us to the tournament when he had Chris Gray as a 5th year senior and the Number 1 recruiting class in the country!

Wearing Carolina Blue didn’t prevent UNC from going to the tournament, being out-coached and out worked did. There is nothing structural about Carolina that we should be this far behind UM/UVA/Duke. Heck look at the UNC women’s program and how much they’ve dominated the last decade. I know it isn’t apples to apples, but at UNC you have arguably the best women’s program in the country. Is there some massive advantage that the women have that the men don’t at UNC? And if so does it explain how one makes the final 4 almost every year (in a much larger field) while the other rolls over and plays dead the moment they step on the field against strong conference opponents?

No it’s 17/25 the way you presented it and reality. Ignoring the change from 12 member playoff and auto byes into quarters and calling it the same accomplishment and ignoring the rise of 3-4 comparable institutions over that period makes the case pointless. Army should be top 5 in football because they were good in the 1940s by your logic.

There are legitimate reasons as to why Army can’t compete at a high level in football. Army is at a disadvantage to other football schools nowadays that they were not back in the 40s.

A more appropriate comparison in football would be Tennessee, Miami, Texas or UGA a few years ago. Army has a legit reason why they can’t compete anymore, those 4 can but they have (had) made poor coaching hires. UNC falls under the later not the former.

UNC is at no disadvantage in lacrosse to anyone. In fact, we are continuing to recruit at the same level as schools who consistently compete and make final 4s. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more parity, but UNC’s ceiling is just as high as Maryland or UVA when they make the right hire.

[10 10 2]

which begs the question, why are you putting a coach "on the clock." Was he not on the clock already when he walked into a contract year without a new deal and then went 7-7? How do you reasonably expect him to recruit when all of his peers have long term deals and the next class he's recruiting (Class of 2025) will be incoming freshmen...the last year of his deal. "Come play to UNC where I may or may not even be the coach by that point. If they don't think he's a long term option, then just make the move.

I agree. Bubba Cunningham, the AD, had a tough decision to make and chose to kick the proverbial can down the road. I guess Breschi just had too many good things going for him. Now he must find his mojo and try to turn things around in a year or two or he loses his job. The next couple years could be a depressing spectacle for the UNC program and fans if he continues to lose.

Breschi's biggest problem, which is not easy to address in the short term, is that he has failed to recruit or develop enough ACC caliber midfielders. The rising junior class that got a lot of press coming in has not met many of the expectations people had for them. Demarco and Schwarz looked like they might have a strong year in February, and then their production fell off a cliff. Egan got hurt, and English was relegated to d-mid. Cole Herbert, a premier recruit in the class ahead of them, did not work out. Transfer impact was OK at best. Tyeryar (13 goals), the face-off guy, led all the UNC midfielders in goals for the whole second half of the season.

The most obvious thing Breschi can do is bolster the midfield with a high level player from the portal. It's also time to convert more attackmen to play midfield. A few among Pietremala, Tillman, Egan, Matan, McGovern, & Duffy will have to come in through the box as midfielders. Same goes for reserve attackmen like Levy and Deubner. Call up the offensive coordinator and tell him you want to run more position-less offensive sets that incorporate fewer traditional midfielders and more converted attackmen.

Other than that, Breschi has to try keeping the team focused as the season wears on and get them playing their best lacrosse in April and May. Not February. Discipline and fundamentals were two basic areas where Uva, Duke, Notre Dame, and Syracuse 1x all beat Carolina badly in this year. Soft and undisciplined has been a stereotypical criticism of UNC teams in the past but I think it applied in 2023.

[Farfromgeneva]

UNC is an elite program that has won 5 National Championships with 3 different head coaches and been to 14 Final Fours in 4 different decades. UNC has been one of the most elite programs in the country every year since 1976, with the exception of a 10 year stretch from 1997-2006 and the last 7 years since 2017.
I hate it when people act like these last 7 seasons is the historical norm at UNC. From 1976-1996, UNC was a top 3 program in the country. We struggled from 1997-2006, however lets not act like that decade should be viewed as the standard. From 2007-2016 UNC was a top 5-8 program in the country again. Since 2017 we have fallen drastically.

Here is UNC's NCAA tournament seed every year since 1976. I will be the first to admit tournament seeding is not perfect, but I hate it when people say UNC was only an elite program for a decade. Cause that simply isn't true.

1976 - 5 Seed
1977 - 7 Seed
1978 - N/A
1979 - N/A
1980 - 5 Seed
1981 - 2 Seed
1982 - 1 Seed
1983 - 5 Seed
1984 - 5 Seed
1985 - 3 Seed
1986 - 5 Seed
1987 - 5 Seed
1988 - 3 Seed
1989 - 6 Seed
1990 - 4 Seed
1991 - 1 Seed
1992 - 2 Seed
1993 - 1 Seed
1994 - 4 Seed
1995 - Unseeded
1996 - 4 Seed
1997 - N/A
1998 - Unseeded
1999 - N/A
2000 - N/A
2001 - N/A
2002 - N/A
2003 - N/A
2004 - 8 Seed
2005 - N/A
2006 - N/A
2007 - 8 Seed
2008 - 4 Seed
2009 - 6 Seed
2010 - 4 Seed
2011 - 8 Seed
2012 - 8 Seed
2013 - 5 Seed
2014 - Unseeded
2015 - 3 Seed
2016 - Unseeded
2017 - Unseeded
2018 - N/A
2019 - N/A
2021 - 1 Seed
2022 - N/A
2023 - N/A

Many UNC fans rightfully don't believe we should be settling for the standard set the last 7 years when we are clearly capable of being better then that.

So the exception being 17 of the last 25yrs right? You’ve carved out 68% of the most current and contemporary quarter century from your analysis. I have to ask, do you work in commercial title or trade credit insurance?

17 of the last 45 years. And the last 7 seasons, we had just as much talent as any program in the country. I would say maybe you have a point regarding our inability to compete if we weren’t still consistently bringing in so many elite recruits. Heck, JB couldn’t bring us to the tournament when he had Chris Gray as a 5th year senior and the Number 1 recruiting class in the country!

Wearing Carolina Blue didn’t prevent UNC from going to the tournament, being out-coached and out worked did. There is nothing structural about Carolina that we should be this far behind UM/UVA/Duke. Heck look at the UNC women’s program and how much they’ve dominated the last decade. I know it isn’t apples to apples, but at UNC you have arguably the best women’s program in the country. Is there some massive advantage that the women have that the men don’t at UNC? And if so does it explain how one makes the final 4 almost every year (in a much larger field) while the other rolls over and plays dead the moment they step on the field against strong conference opponents?

No it’s 17/25 the way you presented it and reality. Ignoring the change from 12 member playoff and auto byes into quarters and calling it the same accomplishment and ignoring the rise of 3-4 comparable institutions over that period makes the case pointless. Army should be top 5 in football because they were good in the 1940s by your logic.

There are legitimate reasons as to why Army can’t compete at a high level in football. Army is at a disadvantage to other football schools nowadays that they were not back in the 40s.

A more appropriate comparison in football would be Tennessee, Miami, Texas or UGA a few years ago. Army has a legit reason why they can’t compete anymore, those 4 can but they have (had) made poor coaching hires. UNC falls under the later not the former.

UNC is at no disadvantage in lacrosse to anyone. In fact, we are continuing to recruit at the same level as schools who consistently compete and make final 4s. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more parity, but UNC’s ceiling is just as high as Maryland or UVA when they make the right hire.

Comparing football at all, which you initiated, makes no sense. It’s throwing money at it. Really that simple. The investment made with and around Smart is unreal. Unethical and gross as well as a resident of the state and, again, familiar with the local school. This is different, even under names, image & likeness environment. The cross comparison is dumb and useless, sorry but every time it happens it’s stupid. Not just you but anyone around here. Totally irrelevant.

Doesn’t matter you continue to ignore anything anyone says including actual facts so nobody’s going to sway you regardless. That’s fine. It won’t make life any better to take that position but que sera sera.

[Farfromgeneva]

which begs the question, why are you putting a coach "on the clock." Was he not on the clock already when he walked into a contract year without a new deal and then went 7-7? How do you reasonably expect him to recruit when all of his peers have long term deals and the next class he's recruiting (Class of 2025) will be incoming freshmen...the last year of his deal. "Come play to UNC where I may or may not even be the coach by that point. If they don't think he's a long term option, then just make the move.

I agree. Bubba Cunningham, the AD, had a tough decision to make and chose to kick the proverbial can down the road. I guess Breschi just had too many good things going for him. Now he must find his mojo and try to turn things around in a year or two or he loses his job. The next couple years could be a depressing spectacle for the UNC program and fans if he continues to lose.

Breschi's biggest problem, which is not easy to address in the short term, is that he has failed to recruit or develop enough ACC caliber midfielders. The rising junior class that got a lot of press coming in has not met many of the expectations people had for them. Demarco and Schwarz looked like they might have a strong year in February, and then their production fell off a cliff. Egan got hurt, and English was relegated to d-mid. Cole Herbert, a premier recruit in the class ahead of them, did not work out. Transfer impact was OK at best. Tyeryar (13 goals), the face-off guy, led all the UNC midfielders in goals for the whole second half of the season.

The most obvious thing Breschi can do is bolster the midfield with a high level player from the portal. It's also time to convert more attackmen to play midfield. A few among Pietremala, Tillman, Egan, Matan, McGovern, & Duffy will have to come in through the box as midfielders. Same goes for reserve attackmen like Levy and Deubner. Call up the offensive coordinator and tell him you want to run more position-less offensive sets that incorporate fewer traditional midfielders and more converted attackmen.

Other than that, Breschi has to try keeping the team focused as the season wears on and get them playing their best lacrosse in April and May. Not February. Discipline and fundamentals were two basic areas where Uva, Duke, Notre Dame, and Syracuse 1x all beat Carolina badly in this year. Soft and undisciplined has been a stereotypical criticism of UNC teams in the past but I think it applied in 2023.

That’s just it the AD believes Breschi had too many good things going for him. Chat board or not there’s no way around the fact that people complaining are very much saying they know better than the AD and we all know the reality of that.

I recall UNC teams in the 2000s being soft and undisciplined. Early Breschi years too when they had all those great attack.

[Farfromgeneva]

UNC is an elite program that has won 5 National Championships with 3 different head coaches and been to 14 Final Fours in 4 different decades. UNC has been one of the most elite programs in the country every year since 1976, with the exception of a 10 year stretch from 1997-2006 and the last 7 years since 2017.
I hate it when people act like these last 7 seasons is the historical norm at UNC. From 1976-1996, UNC was a top 3 program in the country. We struggled from 1997-2006, however lets not act like that decade should be viewed as the standard. From 2007-2016 UNC was a top 5-8 program in the country again. Since 2017 we have fallen drastically.

Here is UNC's NCAA tournament seed every year since 1976. I will be the first to admit tournament seeding is not perfect, but I hate it when people say UNC was only an elite program for a decade. Cause that simply isn't true.

1976 - 5 Seed
1977 - 7 Seed
1978 - N/A
1979 - N/A
1980 - 5 Seed
1981 - 2 Seed
1982 - 1 Seed
1983 - 5 Seed
1984 - 5 Seed
1985 - 3 Seed
1986 - 5 Seed
1987 - 5 Seed
1988 - 3 Seed
1989 - 6 Seed
1990 - 4 Seed
1991 - 1 Seed
1992 - 2 Seed
1993 - 1 Seed
1994 - 4 Seed
1995 - Unseeded
1996 - 4 Seed
1997 - N/A
1998 - Unseeded
1999 - N/A
2000 - N/A
2001 - N/A
2002 - N/A
2003 - N/A
2004 - 8 Seed
2005 - N/A
2006 - N/A
2007 - 8 Seed
2008 - 4 Seed
2009 - 6 Seed
2010 - 4 Seed
2011 - 8 Seed
2012 - 8 Seed
2013 - 5 Seed
2014 - Unseeded
2015 - 3 Seed
2016 - Unseeded
2017 - Unseeded
2018 - N/A
2019 - N/A
2021 - 1 Seed
2022 - N/A
2023 - N/A

Many UNC fans rightfully don't believe we should be settling for the standard set the last 7 years when we are clearly capable of being better then that.

So the exception being 17 of the last 25yrs right? You’ve carved out 68% of the most current and contemporary quarter century from your analysis. I have to ask, do you work in commercial title or trade credit insurance?

17 of the last 45 years. And the last 7 seasons, we had just as much talent as any program in the country. I would say maybe you have a point regarding our inability to compete if we weren’t still consistently bringing in so many elite recruits. Heck, JB couldn’t bring us to the tournament when he had Chris Gray as a 5th year senior and the Number 1 recruiting class in the country!

Wearing Carolina Blue didn’t prevent UNC from going to the tournament, being out-coached and out worked did. There is nothing structural about Carolina that we should be this far behind UM/UVA/Duke. Heck look at the UNC women’s program and how much they’ve dominated the last decade. I know it isn’t apples to apples, but at UNC you have arguably the best women’s program in the country. Is there some massive advantage that the women have that the men don’t at UNC? And if so does it explain how one makes the final 4 almost every year (in a much larger field) while the other rolls over and plays dead the moment they step on the field against strong conference opponents?

No it’s 17/25 the way you presented it and reality. Ignoring the change from 12 member playoff and auto byes into quarters and calling it the same accomplishment and ignoring the rise of 3-4 comparable institutions over that period makes the case pointless. Army should be top 5 in football because they were good in the 1940s by your logic.

There are legitimate reasons as to why Army can’t compete at a high level in football. Army is at a disadvantage to other football schools nowadays that they were not back in the 40s.

A more appropriate comparison in football would be Tennessee, Miami, Texas or UGA a few years ago. Army has a legit reason why they can’t compete anymore, those 4 can but they have (had) made poor coaching hires. UNC falls under the later not the former.

UNC is at no disadvantage in lacrosse to anyone. In fact, we are continuing to recruit at the same level as schools who consistently compete and make final 4s. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more parity, but UNC’s ceiling is just as high as Maryland or UVA when they make the right hire.

Georgia Tech-couple of Orange Bowls since but a title in 1990 and completely irrelevant know despite Bobby Dodd, existing in downtown Atlanta the capital of the south, former SEC now ACC program. Academics hurt Tech compared to their (former) peers but it’s been about money and that’s it. That’s all CFB is about these days nothing more. Paul Johnson was hired because he was cheap as were the last three BB coaches. Lacrosse is NOT a money sport.

[10stone5]

From 1976-1996, UNC was a top 3 program in the country.

Nah.

More like, 1981 to 1993, where UNC was on par or better than Hopkins and Syracuse — the early 80s UNC teams were among the best and most innovative I’ve ever seen,

Mid 90s through mid-2000s it was Tierney’s Princetons, UVA and Syracuse, they were the top three, Terps maybe.

Those were though real good late 70s UNC teams - Rip Davy was the 1st UNC All American and they made their 1st NCAAs.

[rolldodge]

Mid 90s through mid-2000s it was Tierney’s Princetons, UVA and Hopkins, they were the top three,

Syracuse?

[10stone5]

Mid 90s through mid-2000s it was Tierney’s Princetons, UVA and Hopkins, they were the top three,

Syracuse?

That’s what I meant

[Farfromgeneva]

Mid 90s through mid-2000s it was Tierney’s Princetons, UVA and Hopkins, they were the top three,

Syracuse?

Who?

[BryanLax]

UNC is an elite program that has won 5 National Championships with 3 different head coaches and been to 14 Final Fours in 4 different decades. UNC has been one of the most elite programs in the country every year since 1976, with the exception of a 10 year stretch from 1997-2006 and the last 7 years since 2017.
I hate it when people act like these last 7 seasons is the historical norm at UNC. From 1976-1996, UNC was a top 3 program in the country. We struggled from 1997-2006, however lets not act like that decade should be viewed as the standard. From 2007-2016 UNC was a top 5-8 program in the country again. Since 2017 we have fallen drastically.

Here is UNC's NCAA tournament seed every year since 1976. I will be the first to admit tournament seeding is not perfect, but I hate it when people say UNC was only an elite program for a decade. Cause that simply isn't true.

1976 - 5 Seed
1977 - 7 Seed
1978 - N/A
1979 - N/A
1980 - 5 Seed
1981 - 2 Seed
1982 - 1 Seed
1983 - 5 Seed
1984 - 5 Seed
1985 - 3 Seed
1986 - 5 Seed
1987 - 5 Seed
1988 - 3 Seed
1989 - 6 Seed
1990 - 4 Seed
1991 - 1 Seed
1992 - 2 Seed
1993 - 1 Seed
1994 - 4 Seed
1995 - Unseeded
1996 - 4 Seed
1997 - N/A
1998 - Unseeded
1999 - N/A
2000 - N/A
2001 - N/A
2002 - N/A
2003 - N/A
2004 - 8 Seed
2005 - N/A
2006 - N/A
2007 - 8 Seed
2008 - 4 Seed
2009 - 6 Seed
2010 - 4 Seed
2011 - 8 Seed
2012 - 8 Seed
2013 - 5 Seed
2014 - Unseeded
2015 - 3 Seed
2016 - Unseeded
2017 - Unseeded
2018 - N/A
2019 - N/A
2021 - 1 Seed
2022 - N/A
2023 - N/A

Many UNC fans rightfully don't believe we should be settling for the standard set the last 7 years when we are clearly capable of being better then that.

So the exception being 17 of the last 25yrs right? You’ve carved out 68% of the most current and contemporary quarter century from your analysis. I have to ask, do you work in commercial title or trade credit insurance?

17 of the last 45 years. And the last 7 seasons, we had just as much talent as any program in the country. I would say maybe you have a point regarding our inability to compete if we weren’t still consistently bringing in so many elite recruits. Heck, JB couldn’t bring us to the tournament when he had Chris Gray as a 5th year senior and the Number 1 recruiting class in the country!

Wearing Carolina Blue didn’t prevent UNC from going to the tournament, being out-coached and out worked did. There is nothing structural about Carolina that we should be this far behind UM/UVA/Duke. Heck look at the UNC women’s program and how much they’ve dominated the last decade. I know it isn’t apples to apples, but at UNC you have arguably the best women’s program in the country. Is there some massive advantage that the women have that the men don’t at UNC? And if so does it explain how one makes the final 4 almost every year (in a much larger field) while the other rolls over and plays dead the moment they step on the field against strong conference opponents?

No it’s 17/25 the way you presented it and reality. Ignoring the change from 12 member playoff and auto byes into quarters and calling it the same accomplishment and ignoring the rise of 3-4 comparable institutions over that period makes the case pointless. Army should be top 5 in football because they were good in the 1940s by your logic.

There are legitimate reasons as to why Army can’t compete at a high level in football. Army is at a disadvantage to other football schools nowadays that they were not back in the 40s.

A more appropriate comparison in football would be Tennessee, Miami, Texas or UGA a few years ago. Army has a legit reason why they can’t compete anymore, those 4 can but they have (had) made poor coaching hires. UNC falls under the later not the former.

UNC is at no disadvantage in lacrosse to anyone. In fact, we are continuing to recruit at the same level as schools who consistently compete and make final 4s. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more parity, but UNC’s ceiling is just as high as Maryland or UVA when they make the right hire.

Comparing football at all, which you initiated, makes no sense. It’s throwing money at it. Really that simple. The investment made with and around Smart is unreal. Unethical and gross as well as a resident of the state and, again, familiar with the local school. This is different, even under names, image & likeness environment. The cross comparison is dumb and useless, sorry but every time it happens it’s stupid. Not just you but anyone around here. Totally irrelevant.

Doesn’t matter you continue to ignore anything anyone says including actual facts so nobody’s going to sway you regardless. That’s fine. It won’t make life any better to take that position but que sera sera.

ummmm... you are the one who compared UNC lacrosse to Army football....
And what facts are you talking about? UNC has invested greatly into lacrosse. Compare UNC's facilities to other top schools.

[BryanLax]

UNC is an elite program that has won 5 National Championships with 3 different head coaches and been to 14 Final Fours in 4 different decades. UNC has been one of the most elite programs in the country every year since 1976, with the exception of a 10 year stretch from 1997-2006 and the last 7 years since 2017.
I hate it when people act like these last 7 seasons is the historical norm at UNC. From 1976-1996, UNC was a top 3 program in the country. We struggled from 1997-2006, however lets not act like that decade should be viewed as the standard. From 2007-2016 UNC was a top 5-8 program in the country again. Since 2017 we have fallen drastically.

Here is UNC's NCAA tournament seed every year since 1976. I will be the first to admit tournament seeding is not perfect, but I hate it when people say UNC was only an elite program for a decade. Cause that simply isn't true.

1976 - 5 Seed
1977 - 7 Seed
1978 - N/A
1979 - N/A
1980 - 5 Seed
1981 - 2 Seed
1982 - 1 Seed
1983 - 5 Seed
1984 - 5 Seed
1985 - 3 Seed
1986 - 5 Seed
1987 - 5 Seed
1988 - 3 Seed
1989 - 6 Seed
1990 - 4 Seed
1991 - 1 Seed
1992 - 2 Seed
1993 - 1 Seed
1994 - 4 Seed
1995 - Unseeded
1996 - 4 Seed
1997 - N/A
1998 - Unseeded
1999 - N/A
2000 - N/A
2001 - N/A
2002 - N/A
2003 - N/A
2004 - 8 Seed
2005 - N/A
2006 - N/A
2007 - 8 Seed
2008 - 4 Seed
2009 - 6 Seed
2010 - 4 Seed
2011 - 8 Seed
2012 - 8 Seed
2013 - 5 Seed
2014 - Unseeded
2015 - 3 Seed
2016 - Unseeded
2017 - Unseeded
2018 - N/A
2019 - N/A
2021 - 1 Seed
2022 - N/A
2023 - N/A

Many UNC fans rightfully don't believe we should be settling for the standard set the last 7 years when we are clearly capable of being better then that.

So the exception being 17 of the last 25yrs right? You’ve carved out 68% of the most current and contemporary quarter century from your analysis. I have to ask, do you work in commercial title or trade credit insurance?

17 of the last 45 years. And the last 7 seasons, we had just as much talent as any program in the country. I would say maybe you have a point regarding our inability to compete if we weren’t still consistently bringing in so many elite recruits. Heck, JB couldn’t bring us to the tournament when he had Chris Gray as a 5th year senior and the Number 1 recruiting class in the country!

Wearing Carolina Blue didn’t prevent UNC from going to the tournament, being out-coached and out worked did. There is nothing structural about Carolina that we should be this far behind UM/UVA/Duke. Heck look at the UNC women’s program and how much they’ve dominated the last decade. I know it isn’t apples to apples, but at UNC you have arguably the best women’s program in the country. Is there some massive advantage that the women have that the men don’t at UNC? And if so does it explain how one makes the final 4 almost every year (in a much larger field) while the other rolls over and plays dead the moment they step on the field against strong conference opponents?

No it’s 17/25 the way you presented it and reality. Ignoring the change from 12 member playoff and auto byes into quarters and calling it the same accomplishment and ignoring the rise of 3-4 comparable institutions over that period makes the case pointless. Army should be top 5 in football because they were good in the 1940s by your logic.

There are legitimate reasons as to why Army can’t compete at a high level in football. Army is at a disadvantage to other football schools nowadays that they were not back in the 40s.

A more appropriate comparison in football would be Tennessee, Miami, Texas or UGA a few years ago. Army has a legit reason why they can’t compete anymore, those 4 can but they have (had) made poor coaching hires. UNC falls under the later not the former.

UNC is at no disadvantage in lacrosse to anyone. In fact, we are continuing to recruit at the same level as schools who consistently compete and make final 4s. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be more parity, but UNC’s ceiling is just as high as Maryland or UVA when they make the right hire.

Georgia Tech-couple of Orange Bowls since but a title in 1990 and completely irrelevant know despite Bobby Dodd, existing in downtown Atlanta the capital of the south, former SEC now ACC program. Academics hurt Tech compared to their (former) peers but it’s been about money and that’s it. That’s all CFB is about these days nothing more. Paul Johnson was hired because he was cheap as were the last three BB coaches. Lacrosse is NOT a money sport.

Like you said, Georgia Tech is at a disadvantage in Football compared to other schools because of academics (primarily the fact that they primarily offer majors/degrees in fields of study that few top recruits want to study.)

[coda]

just curious how did GT football got prepared to UNC lacrosse. That just doesnt make sense.

[Hoxwurth]

I agree. We need to keep upping our game. The issue is that we have been in all aspects, EXCEPT coaching. Look at our facilities! Easily the best in the ACC... maybe even the country. We are heavily invested into this program, except we are unwilling to up our game where it matters most... and that is coaching.

With the right coach (and without revenue sharing!), UNC should want and expect to be ahead of Syracuse in the ACC and competitive with Virginia for the best program. UNC rightfully recruits itself and I think any number of coaches could get great players to Chapel Hill. Lars isn't the recruiting mastermind at Virginia--Starsia restocked the cupboard before his dismissal because Virginia recruits itself.

(Duke's slightly different but should also expect to be at the top of the ACC.)

[Farfromgeneva]

just curious how did GT football got prepared to UNC lacrosse. That just doesnt make sense.

Many high dollar alums keep pointing to a title in 1990, their former SEC affiliation and the name Bobby Dodd as to why they should be on the same plane at UGA and Clemson. Every day of the week and twice in Sunday. The only pushback they ever hear is when my father in law takes me to the functions and I hit the open bar hard…

[coda]

just curious how did GT football got prepared to UNC lacrosse. That just doesnt make sense.

Many high dollar alums keep pointing to a title in 1990, their former SEC affiliation and the name Bobby Dodd as to why they should be on the same plane at UGA and Clemson. Every day of the week and twice in Sunday. The only pushback they ever hear is when my father in law takes me to the functions and I hit the open bar hard…

That is quite a leap. GT left the SEC in the early 60s. The SEC wasnt held in the same esteem then, as they are now. That is just an odd thing to bring up. Georgia Tech is small school (sub 20k). I dont think GT alums want to compare the infrastructure between GT and Georgia. Historically they are probably in the 25-30 area in college football. UNC is 5th in NCAA tournament appearances (33, situated between Cuse and Cornell). They have 5 NCs. If we are comparing UNC lax to football, I would say they are more like Texas or Tennessee. They are Blue Blood or at least right outside that line.