All Things Russia & Ukraine

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a fan
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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cradleandshoot wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 1:18 pm
a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:31 pm
cradleandshoot wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:15 pm

I think you have to rewind back to the Reagan era. Ronnie cut the amnesty deal with the condition the folks in Washington would secure the border. Why was that not done? Everybody forgets about that. I guess it wasn't a priority in DC in the mid 80s? :roll: To be fair it's not like it is any politicians priority today either.
Oh, I agree. But Trump is the only POTUS to RUN on the border issues, and immigration as a whole.

He didn't fix it. He didn't even try.....didn't put up his own bill. Didn't use the power of his office to go after businesses, which would end the problems immediately.
I know that trump talked about the border. Talk is cheap when you don't back it up. At this point in time playing the blame game is futile.
I'm not blaming Trump-----I'm blaming Republicans who SWEAR this is a crisis...yet when their guy was in power, they didn't hold him accountable for fixing the problem. And NEVER complained that he didn't fix the problem at any time in his four years.

Now Republican voters are telling us that Biden is doing it wrong.

Our politicians are doing what we tell them to do. Trump did NOTHING to fix the problem----and not only did the R voters not complain, they CHEERED and told us how awesome Trump was.

The ONLY way to fix this problem that REPUBLICAN VOTERS have identified, is to hold THEIR TEAM accountable for fixing the issue that THEY believe is important.

Been telling folks this for going on 20 years. They don't want to hear it, so nothing gets done.

Which tells me that Republican voters don't ACTUALLY care all that much about immigration reform.

And if it's not obvious----I'm saying this not to blame R voters retroactively . I'm telling them, as I did in real time when Trump was in office: YOU are the reason this ain't done.

And when DeSantis wins? If they don't hold DeSantis' you know what to the fire? He'll get away with doing nothing about immigration, too.

It's up to them. "Biden is bad" doesn't do diddly.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:10 pm My blame falls squarely on Trump. This is THE issue he ran on. And then did nothing about it.
Trump did everything the law allowed & a lot that the law did not allow.
He forced Congress to put a reform bill on the table, but the Dems refused to deal, citing his sh!thole country remark.
Trump ended catch & release, forced Mexico to accept stay in Mexico, enforce their southern border, & offer migrants asylum, separated families, rebuilt & extended the Wall, envoked Title 42 -- all served as deterrents, even when later overturned by the courts.

Biden ended all of them, signalling a green light to the cartels & turned DHS into a concierge service.
...while defaming CBP for whipping migrants.

https://nypost.com/2021/02/05/biden-rei ... rn-border/
The Biden administration has revived the so-called “catch and release” system when it comes to dealing with illegal immigrants at the southern border.

President Biden on Tuesday signed an executive order revoking former President Donald Trump’s ending of the controversial practice — which allows undocumented migrants to remain in the US while awaiting immigration proceedings.
The executive order only permits Border Patrol to hold an undocumented immigrant crossing the border up to 72 hours.

The policy allowed the Border Patrol to expel thousands of adults arrested in the US for trespassing.


https://nypost.com/2021/02/05/biden-rei ... rn-border/
Biden said earlier this month that it would take time to undo Trump’s immigration policies, including the requirement that asylum-seekers, mostly from Central America, wait in Mexico for their appearances in US courts on their claims.

Title 42 allowed the Border Patrol to expel thousands of adults arrested in the US for trespassing.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:02 pm
a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:10 pm My blame falls squarely on Trump. This is THE issue he ran on. And then did nothing about it.
Trump did everything the law allowed & a lot that the law did not allow.
Annnnnd, right on cue, out comes the defense of the magic R.

He didn't come anywhere close to doing "everything the law allowed", and you know it. I have no clue how many more
times you plan to lie about this.

But sure. Whatever. Biden Bad, Trumpy good.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:43 pm
old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 6:02 pm
a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 12:10 pm My blame falls squarely on Trump. This is THE issue he ran on. And then did nothing about it.
Trump did everything the law allowed & a lot that the law did not allow.
Annnnnd, right on cue, out comes the defense of the magic R.

He didn't come anywhere close to doing "everything the law allowed", and you know it. I have no clue how many more
times you plan to lie about this.

But sure. Whatever. Biden Bad, Trumpy good.
Specifically -- what more could Trump have done which the law allowed ?
Like other Presidents before & since, he couldn't get (R) & (D) members in both houses of Congress to agree on reforms,
even partial reforms, like the asylum law, rather than insisting on comprehensive reform which addresses all immigration laws.

https://fclawlib.libguides.com/immigrat ... irdcountry
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN2A702Q
Biden administration suspends Trump asylum deals with El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras
By Reuters Staff

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Biden administration said on Saturday it was immediately suspending Trump-era asylum agreements with El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras, part of a bid to undo his Republican predecessor’s hardline immigration policies.

In a statement, State Department Secretary Antony Blinken said the United States had “suspended and initiated the process to terminate the Asylum Cooperative Agreements with the Governments of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras as the first concrete steps on the path to greater partnership and collaboration in the region laid out by President Biden.”

The so-called “safe third country” agreements, inked in 2019 by the Trump administration and the Central American nations, force asylum seekers from the region to first seek refuge in those countries before applying in the United States.

Part of a controversial bid by Trump to crack down on illegal immigrants from Central America who make up a large part of migrants apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border, the policies were never implemented with El Salvador and Honduras, the State Department said on Saturday.

Transfers under the U.S.-Guatemala agreement have been paused since mid-March 2020 due to the coronavirus pandemic, the statement added.

The moves announced Saturday came after Biden unveiled a host of measures last week aimed at revamping the U.S. immigration system, including a task force to reunite families separated at the United States-Mexico border and another to increase an annual cap on refugees.

One of the orders called for Blinken to “promptly consider” whether to notify the governments of the three countries that the United States intended to suspend and terminate the safe third country deals. It also called on the Secretary of Homeland Security and the Attorney General to determine whether to rescind a rule implementing the agreements.

Last edited by old salt on Sun May 14, 2023 7:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Meanwhile, Ukraine...
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:31 pm Like other Presidents before & since, he couldn't get (R) & (D) members in both houses of Congress to agree on reforms,
even partial reforms, like the asylum law, rather than insisting on comprehensive reform which addresses all immigration laws.
We've had this discussion SEVERAL times.

Enforce existing laws. Go after businesses that break the law ZEALOUSLY. Trump TOLD YOU he'd do this, remember?

Do that....go after businesses? There's no incentive to come here.

No one is doing that. All the reforms in the world are pointless if you don't do this one, simple, easy thing.

Throw managers in jail. Throw HR reps in jail. Throw business owners in jail. Start pulling licenses that EVERY business needs to operate.

Then it's THEIR problem.


Trump didn't do this. And you're not so blind that you don't get why: because he's made BILLIONS using illegal workers at his own properties. You think he's gonna shut down that gravy train?

And R States could do this on their own, btw....they don't. Gee, I wonder why?
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:41 pm
old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:31 pm Like other Presidents before & since, he couldn't get (R) & (D) members in both houses of Congress to agree on reforms,
even partial reforms, like the asylum law, rather than insisting on comprehensive reform which addresses all immigration laws.
We've had this discussion SEVERAL times.

Enforce existing laws. Go after businesses that break the law ZEALOUSLY. Trump TOLD YOU he'd do this, remember?

Do that....go after businesses? There's no incentive to come here.

No one is doing that. All the reforms in the world are pointless if you don't do this one, simple, easy thing.

Throw managers in jail. Throw HR reps in jail. Throw business owners in jail. Start pulling licenses that EVERY business needs to operate.

Then it's THEIR problem.


Trump didn't do this. And you're not so blind that you don't get why: because he's made BILLIONS using illegal workers at his own properties. You think he's gonna shut down that gravy train?

And R States could do this on their own, btw....they don't. Gee, I wonder why?
That doesn't mean you don't do anything else -- like changing the asylum law, which is the single largest factor in enabling economic migrant flow. If you limit supply of illegal labor, businesses will be forced to hire legal residents & THAT will force Congress to enact reforms that legitimize the presence of illegal workers already here & formalIze the legal inflow of necessary workers.

Can states enforce Federal immigration laws ?
https://www.lawfirm1.com/faqs/state-vs- ... 0situation.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:48 pm That doesn't mean you don't do anything else
? It's the one thing every State....heck, every City....can do. Right now. Today.

Every business has licenses. Suspend them for illegal labor practices. Enforce existing laws.

That takes care of the MILLIONS that are already here.

Your ENTIRE attention is, and has been, focused on fears of the 1,000,001......that one extra person showing up. How's that working out for you?

20 years, big fat nothing, right?


So why not work on where the big numbers are? And where there are no BS excuses?

Enforce State and Local laws. Simple.

The fact that you and your fellow concerned citizens don't even want to do this...the bare minimum. Tells me (and your leaders): it ain't that big of a deal.

old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:48 pm If you limit supply of illegal labor, businesses will be forced to hire legal residents & THAT will force Congress to enact reforms that legitimize the presence of illegal workers already here & formalIze the legal inflow of necessary workers.
That's right? So tell me----how does what I suggest above not do that, and do that instantly?

Guess where the illegal workers will go? Think about it. Use your head: if the R States use everify, and the D States don't...where will the workers go?
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:58 pm
old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:48 pm That doesn't mean you don't do anything else
? It's the one thing every State....heck, every City....can do. Right now. Today.

Every business has licenses. Suspend them for illegal labor practices. Enforce existing laws.

That takes care of the MILLIONS that are already here.

Your ENTIRE attention is, and has been, focused on fears of the 1,000,001......that one extra person showing up. How's that working out for you?

20 years, big fat nothing, right?


So why not work on where the big numbers are? And where there are no BS excuses?

Enforce State and Local laws. Simple.

The fact that you and your fellow concerned citizens don't even want to do this...the bare minimum. Tells me (and your leaders): it ain't that big of a deal.

old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:48 pm If you limit supply of illegal labor, businesses will be forced to hire legal residents & THAT will force Congress to enact reforms that legitimize the presence of illegal workers already here & formalIze the legal inflow of necessary workers.
That's right? So tell me----how does what I suggest above not do that, and do that instantly?

Guess where the illegal workers will go? Think about it. Use your head: if the R States use everify, and the D States don't...where will the workers go?
E-verify can be evaded.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/st ... -around-it

State laws don't control illegal entry.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 8:00 pmE-verify can be evaded.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/st ... -around-it

State laws don't control illegal entry.
Moved the conversation to the right thread.......
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 8:00 pm
a fan wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:58 pm
old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:48 pm That doesn't mean you don't do anything else
? It's the one thing every State....heck, every City....can do. Right now. Today.

Every business has licenses. Suspend them for illegal labor practices. Enforce existing laws.

That takes care of the MILLIONS that are already here.

Your ENTIRE attention is, and has been, focused on fears of the 1,000,001......that one extra person showing up. How's that working out for you?

20 years, big fat nothing, right?


So why not work on where the big numbers are? And where there are no BS excuses?

Enforce State and Local laws. Simple.

The fact that you and your fellow concerned citizens don't even want to do this...the bare minimum. Tells me (and your leaders): it ain't that big of a deal.

old salt wrote: Sun May 14, 2023 7:48 pm If you limit supply of illegal labor, businesses will be forced to hire legal residents & THAT will force Congress to enact reforms that legitimize the presence of illegal workers already here & formalIze the legal inflow of necessary workers.
That's right? So tell me----how does what I suggest above not do that, and do that instantly?

Guess where the illegal workers will go? Think about it. Use your head: if the R States use everify, and the D States don't...where will the workers go?
E-verify can be evaded.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/st ... -around-it

Stare laws don't control illegal entry.
:lol: :lol: so can drug trafficking, prostitution and child molestation…
“I wish you would!”
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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“I wish you would!”
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Brits pledge jet training for Ukrainian pilots & help in getting F-16's from another nation.
I'm guessing -- just retired excess Dutch F-16's, configured by Norway.

https://www.politico.eu/article/volodym ... ussia-war/

Zelenskyy, Sunak push forward on ‘fighter jet coalition’

LONDON — Britain will be ready to train Ukrainian pilots to use Western fighter jets “relatively soon,” but supplying Ukraine with the warplanes it craves is “not a straightforward thing,” U.K. Prime Minister Rishi Sunak said Monday.

“We want to create this jet coalition,” Zelenskyy said, speaking in English. “I’m very positive with it, we spoke about it.”
“Some very important decisions” on jets will be heard “in the closest time,” he added.

Ahead of the talks, No. 10 Downing Street announced the U.K. would commence “an elementary flying phase for cohorts of Ukrainian pilots to learn basic training.”

The training would go “hand in hand with U.K. efforts to work with other countries on providing F16 jets,” which Ukraine has been pushing for since Western nations agreed to supply Kyiv with battle tanks earlier this year, Downing Street said.

The pledge to provide more aid follows U.K. Defense Secretary Ben Wallace’s announcement last week that Storm Shadow missiles, which will enable Kyiv to strike targets in Russian-occupied Crimea, are being delivered to Ukraine.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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An experienced infantry General predicts how the coming Ukrainian offensive will play out.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... g-success/

Why preparations for Ukraine’s counteroffensive have taken so long

By Mark Hertling
May 15, 2023

Retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling commanded the 1st Armored Division during the Iraq surge and later commanded U.S. Army Europe.

After months of near-daily coverage on the World War I-style fighting between Ukraine’s army and various Russian units near Bakhmut, the anticipated Ukrainian spring offensive will likely occur soon. How soon? It’s impossible to tell. It could kick off within days or within weeks. Those speculating on exactly when such an attack might take place need to understand the complex challenge facing Ukrainian forces.

As a professional soldier, Ukrainian Gen. Valery Zaluzhny knows he holds only two major advantages when going on the offensive: picking the time and the place of the attack. He knows that after launching tens of thousands of soldiers against the Russian army — a force that has been preparing defensive positions for months — it’s impossible to call them back. Perhaps that’s one reason Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, after visiting his troops the night before the D-Day invasion, returned to his drafty cottage to write a note taking full responsibility for the failure of the Normandy landings, if that were to be the outcome. Luckily, that invasion was successful.

For the past several months — possibly ever since last summer after the successful Ukrainian offensive in Kharkiv Oblast — Zaluzhny and his commanders have been planning this offensive. He has been studying intelligence reports, probing Russian lines, getting his special operators in key positions, targeting enemy headquarters and supplies, and messaging resistance fighters behind enemy lines.

But the most difficult thing Zaluzhny needed to do during this long period was generate combat power needed for the attack. He needed to synchronize the ongoing mobilization with his allies, who were training and equipping his force in locations all around the world. He then needed to coordinate the movement of those forces back into Ukraine — and then on to staging grounds near where Ukraine’s army will try to make its breakthrough. Such a complex task would be daunting for even the very best commander.

Ukraine is a large country, and the front is very long. Getting all these units into position is in military jargon called RSOI: Reception, Staging, Onward movement and Integration. Even for the most elite U.S. forces, this is a challenge that is practiced repeatedly at all U.S. training centers. Individual Ukrainian soldiers have proved themselves very good at adapting to new Western kit and accomplishing impossible tasks on the battlefield. But getting RSOI right requires coordinated and synchronized team performance. As one of my mentors once described it to me: “It’s like converting piles of different puzzle pieces into combat ready units, then moving them all over the battlefield.”

Once Zaluzhny has integrated the freshly trained forces into his command and moved the units back to the front for the anticipated offensive, his task will be to execute. In the attack, he must get his troops across the Dnieper River, only to face a Russian enemy that — while still dysfunctional and poorly led — has had months to prepare. A complex set of obstacles and an intimidating series of defensive belts and potential “kill zones” await in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. The Russians may have an advantage in occupying these static defensive positions, but only if their soldiers decide to fight.

Offensive operations require more forces, greater maneuver dexterity, precision targeting and firing, and both longer and more secure supply lines. Ukraine’s army has not executed anything like this on this scale. In my experience in training and combat, it is extremely difficult for even a savvy and well-trained force to mass combat power at multiple decisive points of the attack. But that is what Ukraine’s army must do.

I predict Zaluzhny and his Army will eventually liberate most — if not all — of the land occupied by the Russians in this offensive. I know the Ukrainian army, and I also know the Russian army, and there is no doubt in my mind that will be the ultimate result of this offensive campaign. But it is impossible to say with any certainty how exactly it will play out. We can assume it will be a difficult fight. It will severely test the newly assembled Ukrainian force. It will result in many tragic casualties on both sides. And it will strain Russian President Vladimir Putin’s will.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky will also need to prepare for what happens after these initial battles. Ukrainian civilians in the occupied territory will need humanitarian assistance. Massive demining operations will be necessary, as the Russians have been scattering mines and cluster munitions across fields in anticipation of the counteroffensive. And criminally damaged infrastructure will need to be rebuilt. The World Bank has recently estimated the current cost of rebuilding at around $411 billion, and the final figure is sure to be much higher.

NATO and the United States must also prepare to continue supporting Ukraine’s military indefinitely. All wars end in some type of political agreement, but Russia is unlikely to be satiated. And if the past is any guide, its commitments cannot be trusted. Even with a decimated military, Russia will attempt to rebuild, and Ukraine will remain vulnerable.

Peace and victory will come to Ukraine. But it will likely not be an easy one, nor will it be lasting. For those reasons, the West must continue its support.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 4:51 am An experienced infantry General predicts how the coming Ukrainian offensive will play out.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... g-success/

Why preparations for Ukraine’s counteroffensive have taken so long

By Mark Hertling
May 15, 2023

Retired Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling commanded the 1st Armored Division during the Iraq surge and later commanded U.S. Army Europe.

After months of near-daily coverage on the World War I-style fighting between Ukraine’s army and various Russian units near Bakhmut, the anticipated Ukrainian spring offensive will likely occur soon. How soon? It’s impossible to tell. It could kick off within days or within weeks. Those speculating on exactly when such an attack might take place need to understand the complex challenge facing Ukrainian forces.

As a professional soldier, Ukrainian Gen. Valery Zaluzhny knows he holds only two major advantages when going on the offensive: picking the time and the place of the attack. He knows that after launching tens of thousands of soldiers against the Russian army — a force that has been preparing defensive positions for months — it’s impossible to call them back. Perhaps that’s one reason Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, after visiting his troops the night before the D-Day invasion, returned to his drafty cottage to write a note taking full responsibility for the failure of the Normandy landings, if that were to be the outcome. Luckily, that invasion was successful.

For the past several months — possibly ever since last summer after the successful Ukrainian offensive in Kharkiv Oblast — Zaluzhny and his commanders have been planning this offensive. He has been studying intelligence reports, probing Russian lines, getting his special operators in key positions, targeting enemy headquarters and supplies, and messaging resistance fighters behind enemy lines.

But the most difficult thing Zaluzhny needed to do during this long period was generate combat power needed for the attack. He needed to synchronize the ongoing mobilization with his allies, who were training and equipping his force in locations all around the world. He then needed to coordinate the movement of those forces back into Ukraine — and then on to staging grounds near where Ukraine’s army will try to make its breakthrough. Such a complex task would be daunting for even the very best commander.

Ukraine is a large country, and the front is very long. Getting all these units into position is in military jargon called RSOI: Reception, Staging, Onward movement and Integration. Even for the most elite U.S. forces, this is a challenge that is practiced repeatedly at all U.S. training centers. Individual Ukrainian soldiers have proved themselves very good at adapting to new Western kit and accomplishing impossible tasks on the battlefield. But getting RSOI right requires coordinated and synchronized team performance. As one of my mentors once described it to me: “It’s like converting piles of different puzzle pieces into combat ready units, then moving them all over the battlefield.”

Once Zaluzhny has integrated the freshly trained forces into his command and moved the units back to the front for the anticipated offensive, his task will be to execute. In the attack, he must get his troops across the Dnieper River, only to face a Russian enemy that — while still dysfunctional and poorly led — has had months to prepare. A complex set of obstacles and an intimidating series of defensive belts and potential “kill zones” await in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia oblasts. The Russians may have an advantage in occupying these static defensive positions, but only if their soldiers decide to fight.

Offensive operations require more forces, greater maneuver dexterity, precision targeting and firing, and both longer and more secure supply lines. Ukraine’s army has not executed anything like this on this scale. In my experience in training and combat, it is extremely difficult for even a savvy and well-trained force to mass combat power at multiple decisive points of the attack. But that is what Ukraine’s army must do.

I predict Zaluzhny and his Army will eventually liberate most — if not all — of the land occupied by the Russians in this offensive. I know the Ukrainian army, and I also know the Russian army, and there is no doubt in my mind that will be the ultimate result of this offensive campaign. But it is impossible to say with any certainty how exactly it will play out. We can assume it will be a difficult fight. It will severely test the newly assembled Ukrainian force. It will result in many tragic casualties on both sides. And it will strain Russian President Vladimir Putin’s will.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky will also need to prepare for what happens after these initial battles. Ukrainian civilians in the occupied territory will need humanitarian assistance. Massive demining operations will be necessary, as the Russians have been scattering mines and cluster munitions across fields in anticipation of the counteroffensive. And criminally damaged infrastructure will need to be rebuilt. The World Bank has recently estimated the current cost of rebuilding at around $411 billion, and the final figure is sure to be much higher.

NATO and the United States must also prepare to continue supporting Ukraine’s military indefinitely. All wars end in some type of political agreement, but Russia is unlikely to be satiated. And if the past is any guide, its commitments cannot be trusted. Even with a decimated military, Russia will attempt to rebuild, and Ukraine will remain vulnerable.

Peace and victory will come to Ukraine. But it will likely not be an easy one, nor will it be lasting. For those reasons, the West must continue its support.
Well reasoned summary of the challenge, and likely results.

Yes, the West will need to continue to support Ukraine's military, and very likely that will include Ukraine joining NATO. NATO head just predicted that NATO would bring Ukraine in at end of immediate hostilities recapturing its sovereign territory.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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...maybe Sweden will be in by then.
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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old salt wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 2:40 pm ...maybe Sweden will be in by then.
You doubting it?

Interesting times in Turkey right now...
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by DocBarrister »

Russians now deploying 80 year old T54 tanks and using them more like artillery pieces than tanks.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... artillery/

How long before Russia begins raiding military museums for their equipment?

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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

Post by old salt »

RFK Jr speaks for me on this war, on FoxNews Special Report, 5/16/23 :

I think we're in the Ukraine war for the right reasons. Americans supported it, because of our humanity, because we're a good nation, we're a compassionate nation. My son went to the Ukraine, joined the special forces, fought in the Kharkiv offensive as a machine gunner and risked his life for the Ukrainian people, out of compassion & admiration for their valor.

But the objectives of the war have changed. They've changed from Washington DC, driven by the Neo-Cons in the White House. President Biden himself has said that one of our objectives is to depose Vladimir Putin. His Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin has said the objective of America in the Ukraine is to exhaust the Russian Army, to degrade its capacity to fight elsewhere in the world. That is the opposite of a humanitarian mission. That is a mission that is going to use hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian young kids as cannon fodder to achieve a geo-political objective, the aspirations of the Neo-Cons. We've made Ukraine now a pawn in a proxy war between two great powers, to achieve our objective, the vanity objectives...

{so you think a peace deal could be reached ?}

Well, the Russians offered a peace deal in the beginning, in the Minsk Accords. In fact, when Zelensky campaigned in 2019, he was a comedian and actor, he had no political experience. But he won with 70% of the vote because he ran on a peace platform, which was signing the Minsk Accords. The United States went in there and we undermined that Agreement. We then encouraged and provoked them to have a full scale war with Russia. which is something we wanted, but the Ukrainian people clearly did not want.


Regarding the Minsk Protocols, this was published just before the invasion.
https://www.salon.com/2022/02/09/hey-am ... -protocol/
Hey, America: There's already a diplomatic solution in Ukraine — the 2015 Minsk Protocol
Joe Biden and Tony Blinken claim they want a diplomatic solution in Ukraine. A path to reach one already exists
PUBLISHED FEBRUARY 9, 2022

While the Biden administration is sending more troops and weapons to inflame the Ukraine conflict and Congress is pouring more fuel on the fire, the American people are on a totally different track.

A December 2021 poll found that a plurality of Americans in both political parties prefer to resolve differences over Ukraine through diplomacy. Another December poll found that a plurality of Americans (48 percent) would oppose going to war with Russia should it invade Ukraine, with only 27 percent favoring U.S. military involvement.

The conservative Koch Institute, which commissioned that poll, concluded that "the United States has no vital interests at stake in Ukraine and continuing to take actions that increase the risk of a confrontation with nuclear-armed Russia is therefore not necessary for our security. After more than two decades of endless war abroad, it is not surprising there is wariness among the American people for yet another war that wouldn't make us safer or more prosperous."

Most Republicans in Congress are criticizing President Biden for not being tough enough (or for focusing on Russia instead of China) and most Democrats are afraid to oppose a Democratic president or be smeared as Putin apologists (remember, Democrats spent four years under Trump demonizing Russia).

Both parties have bills calling for draconian sanctions on Russia and expedited "lethal aid" to Ukraine. The Republicans are advocating for $450 million in new military shipments; the Democrats are one-upping them with a price tag of $500 million.

But sending more weapons and imposing heavy-handed sanctions can only ratchet up the resurgent U.S. cold war on Russia, with all its attendant costs to American society: lavish military spending displacing desperately needed social spending; geopolitical divisions undermining international cooperation for a better future; and, not least, increased risks of a nuclear war that could end life on Earth as we know it.

Negotiations regarding Ukraine are not limited to Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken's failed efforts to browbeat the Russians. There is another already existing diplomatic track for peace in Ukraine, a well-established process called the Minsk Protocol, led by France and Germany and supervised by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

The Normandy Contact Group (France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine) for the Minsk Protocol has met periodically since 2014, and is meeting regularly throughout the current crisis, with its next meeting scheduled for this week in Berlin. The OSCE's 680 unarmed civilian monitors and 621 support staff in Ukraine have also continued their work throughout this crisis. Their latest report, issued Feb. 1, documented a 65% decrease in ceasefire violations compared to two months ago.

But increased U.S. military and diplomatic support since 2019 has encouraged President Volodymyr Zelensky to pull back from Ukraine's commitments under the Minsk Protocol, and to reassert unconditional Ukrainian sovereignty over Crimea and Donbas. This has raised credible fears of a new escalation of the civil war, and U.S. support for Zelensky's more aggressive posture has undermined the existing Minsk-Normandy diplomatic process.

Zelensky's recent statement that "panic" in Western capitals is economically destabilizing Ukraine suggests that he may now be more aware of the pitfalls in the more confrontational path his government adopted, with U.S. encouragement.

The current crisis should be a wake-up call to all involved that the Minsk-Normandy process remains the only viable framework for a peaceful resolution in Ukraine. It deserves full international support, including from members of Congress, especially in light of broken promises on NATO expansion, the U.S. role in the 2014 coup, and now the panic over fears of a Russian invasion that Ukrainian officials say are overblown.

On a separate, albeit related, diplomatic track, the U.S. and Russia must urgently address the breakdown in their bilateral relations. Instead of bravado and oneupmanship, they must restore and build on previous disarmament agreements that they have cavalierly abandoned, placing the whole world in existential danger.

Restoring U.S. support for the Minsk Protocol and the Normandy Format would also help to decouple Ukraine's already thorny and complex internal problems from the larger geopolitical problem of NATO expansion, which must primarily be resolved by the U.S., Russia and NATO.

The U.S. and Russia must not use the people of Ukraine as pawns in a revived Cold War or as chips in their negotiations over NATO expansion. Ukrainians of all ethnicities deserve genuine support to resolve their differences and find a way to live together in one country — or to separate peacefully, as other people have been allowed to do in Ireland, Bangladesh, Slovakia and throughout the former Soviet Union and Yugoslavia.

In 2008, then-U.S. ambassador to Moscow William Burns, who is now CIA director, warned his government that dangling the prospect of NATO membership for Ukraine could lead to civil war and present Russia with a crisis on its border in which it could be forced to intervene.

In a cable published by WikiLeaks, Burns wrote, "Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face."

Since Burns' warning in 2008, successive U.S. administrations have plunged headlong into the crisis he predicted. Members of Congress, especially members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, can play a leading role in restoring sanity to U.S. policy on Ukraine by championing a moratorium on Ukraine's membership in NATO and a reinvigoration of the Minsk Protocol, which the Trump and Biden administrations have arrogantly tried to upstage and upend with weapons shipments, ultimatums and panic.

OSCE monitoring reports on Ukraine are all headed with the critical message: "Facts Matter." Members of Congress should embrace that simple principle and educate themselves about the Minsk-Normandy diplomacy. This process has maintained relative peace in Ukraine since 2015, and remains the UN-endorsed, internationally agreed-upon framework for a lasting resolution.

If the U.S. government wants to play a constructive role in Ukraine, it should genuinely support this already existing framework for a solution to the crisis, and end the heavy-handed U.S. intervention that has only undermined and delayed its implementation. And our elected officials should start listening to their own constituents, who have absolutely no interest in going to war with Russia.
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old salt
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Re: All Things Russia & Ukraine

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Fighting Falcon flap :
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/17/worl ... itain.html

The Latest Rift Among Ukraine’s Allies Is Whether to Send F-16s
The United States is resisting a European push for the powerful fighters. But will it relent, as it did before with tanks, rocket launchers and air defense missiles?
May 17, 2023
A fresh push by Britain and the Netherlands to provide Ukraine with F-16 fighter planes has exposed the latest fault line among Western allies who have wrangled repeatedly over sending powerful weapons of war, once again pitting a reluctant United States against some of its closest European partners.

Several European allies are prepared to give their F-16s to Ukraine. But the Biden administration, which must approve any transfers of the American-made planes, remains unconvinced that Ukraine needs the expensive jets, which are a staple of many modern military arsenals.

So deep is Washington’s skepticism that Kyiv’s pilots are currently not even allowed to train on the F-16s that are owned by European states, according to a senior Ukrainian official who spoke on condition of anonymity to frankly discuss the sensitive diplomatic issue.

American reluctance to allow training would severely limit a proposed new European coalition to help Ukraine obtain and fly F-16s — whether in the current conflict or to protect against any future aggressions by Moscow after the West turns its focus from the 15-month war.

“What’s really important here is to signal to Russia that we as nations have no philosophical or principled objection to supplying Ukraine capabilities that it needs, depending on what is going on in the battlefield,” the British defense minister, Ben Wallace, said on Wednesday in Berlin. He added: “This is up to the White House to decide whether it wants to release that technology.”

In Washington, a senior U.S. official said the Biden administration was still reluctant to send Ukraine its own F-16s, in part because the plane’s multimillion-dollar price tag would absorb too much of an already-dwindling pot of war funding. Instead, the U.S. official said, the administration is more concerned with speeding other American weapons to Ukraine in time for a counteroffensive against Russia, and that in any case the jets would not reach the battlefield for months at least — presumably, long after that battle had begun.

The U.S. official also spoke on condition of anonymity, as did four other senior Western officials in Washington and Europe who were interviewed for this story.

This would not be the first time the Biden administration had resisted allied demands to send more powerful and sophisticated weaponry to Ukraine. In each case it eventually reversed itself, allowing the transfer of powerful HIMARS missile launchers, Abrams tanks and Patriot air defense missiles.

And the U.S. official did not rule out the possibility of the Biden administration issuing re-export licenses to European militaries, enabling them to transfer their F-16s to Ukraine. Later Tuesday, after Britain and the Netherlands announced their so-called “fighter coalition,” Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken and the Dutch foreign minister, Wopke Hoekstra, spoke by phone to discuss Ukraine and other issues.

Mr. Hoekstra said on Wednesday that “we haven’t reached a solution yet” in what another senior European diplomat described as a slow-moving and difficult discussion.
“When we are ready to cross that bridge and are ready to communicate this, we will,” Mr. Hoekstra said.

The Netherlands is one of four European countries that the senior Ukrainian official said have quietly signaled they are ready to send F-16s to Kyiv. Its fleet, along with those of Denmark and Belgium, could provide at least 125 combat-ready F-16s, according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a British think tank that assesses military stockpiles globally. Norway, which retired its unspecified number of F-16s last year in a switch to the more advanced F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, is also ready to contribute, the Ukrainian official said.

Kyiv is asking — for now, at least — for only between 24 and 36, the official said.

Earlier this week, the British prime minister, Rishi Sunak, said the United Kingdom would begin training Ukrainian pilots, starting this summer, as part of a plan “with other countries on providing F-16 jets.” His announcement, wrapped in a new package of military aid, came during a visit to London by President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine.

Without explicit American approvals, however, the training is likely to be limited to what the senior Ukrainian official described as merely technical language and tactical lessons that pilots would be taught, without ever touching an F-16.

With its powerful radar that can spot targets from hundreds of miles away and modern missiles, the F-16 contains classified and other highly restricted systems that the United States does not want duplicated or falling into hostile hands. It is among classes of weapons for which even allies must gain “releasability” permission from the Pentagon just to discuss the technology with outside partners, like Ukraine, a senior Defense Department official said.

Last month, Poland and Slovakia said they had sent Ukraine more than 20 Soviet-era MiG-29 fighter jets in advance of the counteroffensive. But Ukraine’s leaders have said the F-16 is better equipped to protect against airstrikes and to evade Russia’s own warplanes.

The Biden administration has frequently resisted sending more powerful weapons to Ukraine for fear of Moscow escalating its attacks. The concern has quieted of late because it is no longer clear, short of nuclear weapons, how Russia could escalate any more than it has.

“Giving Ukraine F-16s will deter Russia rather than ‘provoke’ it,” Ukraine’s foreign minister, Dmytro Kuleba, urged last month. “Time to take this step.”

Poland has sent MiG-29 fighter jets, like these seen during exercises last year, to Ukraine, but Ukraine also wants American-made F-16s.Credit...Radoslaw Jozwiak/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Douglas Barrie, an I.I.S.S. military expert, said it would be surprising if the Biden administration had not given “at least some kind of tacit nod and a wink” of approval for the European plan to help procure F-16s for Ukraine, and train its pilots, before moving ahead.

He said the fighter jets could play a key role in defending Ukraine, including “to continue to deny the Russians the kind of air superiority they have failed to establish.” Whether the F-16s might be used to attack Russian positions will depend on what kinds of specific weapons packages Western allies agree to equip them with.

Experienced Ukrainian fighter pilots who are already skilled on Soviet-era jets could be trained to fly F-16s in “months rather than weeks, but not that many months potentially,” Mr. Barrie said. But he cautioned that any intensive training in the near future could pull pilots away from the war at a time when Ukraine needs as much of its air force as possible ready to fly.
“You don’t want to kind of have a drop-off in capability, obviously, in the middle of a war,” Mr. Barrie said.

But Ukrainian officials say they are more worried about a different kind of diversion — that of Western support as war fatigue sets in and funding dries up. They are concerned particularly with the United States, where some Republicans, including candidates in next year’s presidential election, are already questioning how much more support the country should give.

That may also be on the minds of a group of 14 Democrats and Republicans in Congress who on Wednesday urged President Biden to unlock the F-16s without delay.
“As we saw with the initial hesitancy by our allies to provide tanks to Ukraine, U.S. leadership is crucial for providing Kyiv with additional resources and new capabilities,” the lawmakers wrote in a letter to the White House that was coordinated by Representative Jared Golden, a Maine Democrat.
“The provision of F-16 fighter aircraft to Ukraine is essential to effectively end this war on just terms,” they wrote.
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