Tewaaraton Finalist

[MDlaxfan76]

Fair re 2023, however I was responding to this statement:
Until he faces some top-5 teams, however, he's not deserving. That's like being POY in basketball without facing a top-25 team. If you prefer another metric, we can use the top 10%. Adler hasn't played against a team in the top 10% of D1 programs.

First, I think the metric you're setting is pretty silly on its face, but accepting it, it's clear that this time last year he did play against several such qualifying teams, against their best players, and was very, very good against those caliber of players. And has played the very best players on multiple top 20 teams this year and dominated them.

But I agree that the award is for performance this year, yes...including how everyone does in the tournament. Cornell is in the tournament. Adler may or may not have the opportunity to face multiple such teams and players this year, but if he does and dominates, he won't be eligible.

But multiple attack men will be eligible, who are not close to being the best players at their position...in 2023...who remain eligible, but the best defender is not...

Again, if the description of the award is changed to best offensive player, no argument at all.

My cutoff is arbitrary. Lacrosse has about 70 D1 teams. A top-20 team in lacrosse is not the same as other sports, and I used the basketball comparison to make that point. I respect your use of a different cutoff.

I think defenders should get more consideration for these awards. O'Neill's metrics are great, but I have him up top due to the eye test. That same test could be used to justify including defenders.

Without the number, you can spot him from a distance. He looks every bit the part of an NFL player.

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised at all if O'Neill finishes strong and wins it.
If I had to make the call right now, he or Kirst would be my choice. Close, IMO.
But what happens in the tourney will probably be determinative and if I had to bet on it, Duke gets further this year.
I'll be rooting for Cornell if they earn a chance to match up with Duke but my bet now would be Duke wins.

On top 20 or top 10, it's pretty clear that there are guys on many of the top 20 teams who, if they were at one of the top 5 schools might well be a starter. You'd have to find them a role to play, and it wouldn't surprise me if they crushed it ala McConvey at UVA this year.

So, when a defender shuts down each such guy he faces, it says a lot. But I'm 100% in agreement that it needs to also include one or more shutdowns of the indisputably top attackmen on the best teams....which may only have a chance to happen in the tournament.

The example of the Hopkins defender shutting down Lyle Thompson was a good example of a player who should at least be in that final 5 consideration...IMO.

But hey I'm a defensively minded guy, so am probably biased!

[admin]

Not a surprising comment. MDLax despises DeLuca... beyond belief.

Henpecked, this is a very personal attack. Take it down 4-5 notches...

[Antonio114]

Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

Dordevic wasn't even the best player on his own attack line for the first half of the season. Even now I would put a lot of money on Adler to completely erase Dordevic if they were matched up on each other.

Fortunately we have some tape on that and...well...check out 8:09 in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDA4zkEjnU8

[laxfan1313]

Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

B.S. The Ivy League has 4 teams in the top 20 RPI and 3 out of 17 teams in the tourney. With 9 leagues receiving an AQ plus 5 ACC teams competing for 8 at-large bids, the Ivy league received 25% of the at-large bids and more than 1/6 of all bids. Adler shut down the top scorer in each game. Adler (and Kirst), both legit 1st Team AAs, likely unanimously, and candidates for the Schmeisser, Turnbull & Ennis awards are legit. Enough said.

ACC was far and away the best conference. Big 10 was the second best. Ivy was clear #3 based on the season. ACC had 60% of their conference receive at-large bids and those 3 received a top 3 seeding. Big 10 had 66.7% of the league make the tournament and 50% of the conference receive at-large bids, Ivy had 43% of their conference make the tournament and 28.7% receive at-large bids. Ivy's highest seed was an 8 seed, both the ACC and Big 10 had 3 teams seeded inside of 8

ACC isn't a "conference" in lacrosse. Cornell played Yale twice and Marquette which beat Penn State. Cornell was in the top 5 on Massey for most of the season and is #6 on Massey today. Cornell is sufficiently well-ranked for its players to command respect here & by the Tewaaraton Foundation.

I like how you mentioned Marquette beat PSU to prop up your argument, while omitting the part where PSU beat Cornell, Penn, and Yale. That made me laugh. I have not argued that Adler should not get respect. I have argued the exact opposite. I just commented on your post pumping up the Ivy as a conference. I think it is fair to say they were the 3rd best performing conference during the season

Keep ignoring that Cornell remains 6th ranked on Massey. That is a reflection of their excellence and the success of their opponents. If Cornell defeats Michigan and Kirst scores at least 6 points, in my opinion, he deserves at least the Turnbull and perhaps the Tewaaraton.

[DMac]

Light shooting day for Tucker in that one, only managed 11 shots (led the team), put 3 in....nary an assist.
Curry with 10 shots, put 4 in, one assist.
Whole rest of the team took 21 shots.
A 4-10 season...we don't share the rock.

[blue angels]

First guy drafted in the PLL.

No one is suggesting he isn’t an excellent player. McConvey at Virginia was 1st pick in the MLL draft and he might be the 4th best option on offense at Virginia. He has also often been shorted this season.

But you are. And it is pretty apparent that you haven't watched him play much this season. He shut down Lehigh's Scott Cole, Princeton's Coulter Mackesey (neither of whom registered a single point) and Matt Brandau, three of the top 20 scorers in lax this season. He handled other players as well, but you had to watch the games to see it. You are the lone voice with this opinion. Every single other person in the lax world - and on this board - is singing his praises. Adler has put together back to back seasons that are as good as any defenseman I have ever seen, and I am not alone with that view. He forces teams to scheme around him and teams are taking their best offensive player and taking him out of the offense to neutralize Adler - kind of a reverse intentional lock off.

You Cornell guys crack me up! Any questioning about whether Adler or Kirst is top 5 in line for the Teewarton and it’s a personal slight of the greatest magnitude. Wonder if there will be a bunch of slit wrists if Duke or Michigan beats them? IMO, No team is safe even in the 1st round and i mean none

[laxfan1313]

First guy drafted in the PLL.

No one is suggesting he isn’t an excellent player. McConvey at Virginia was 1st pick in the MLL draft and he might be the 4th best option on offense at Virginia. He has also often been shorted this season.

But you are. And it is pretty apparent that you haven't watched him play much this season. He shut down Lehigh's Scott Cole, Princeton's Coulter Mackesey (neither of whom registered a single point) and Matt Brandau, three of the top 20 scorers in lax this season. He handled other players as well, but you had to watch the games to see it. You are the lone voice with this opinion. Every single other person in the lax world - and on this board - is singing his praises. Adler has put together back to back seasons that are as good as any defenseman I have ever seen, and I am not alone with that view. He forces teams to scheme around him and teams are taking their best offensive player and taking him out of the offense to neutralize Adler - kind of a reverse intentional lock off.

You Cornell guys crack me up! Any questioning about whether Adler or Kirst is top 5 in line for the Teewarton and it’s a personal slight of the greatest magnitude. Wonder if there will be a bunch of slit wrists if Duke or Michigan beats them? IMO, No team is safe even in the 1st round and i mean none

You are too easily amused. I'm guessing you're about 8 years old. Duke shouldn't overlook Delaware and Cornell will show up on Sunday. Re the Tewaaraton trophy, it looks close between Kirst and O'Neill. The same re the Turnbull.

[ctbagataway]

Lacrosse should just come clean and call the award the best attackman award the same way that football should name fhe Hesiman the best QB. For lacrosse not even name any players from any other positions to their top five, especially this year with so many phenomenal defensive players, is an absolute disservice to the award.

All teams should evidently feature 10 attackmen and they would be national champs.

[ny10458]

Light shooting day for Tucker in that one, only managed 11 shots (led the team), put 3 in....nary an assist.
Curry with 10 shots, put 4 in, one assist.
Whole rest of the team took 21 shots.
A 4-10 season...we don't share the rock.

You sound like a jealous ex-girlfriend

[ny10458]

Bottom line is it's bullschidt that all five candidates are attackmen.
How many of those five candidates do more on the field than Adler
does? He affects games every bit as much as they do but he doesn't
have a bunch of goals, so no Tewey consideration for him. Both sides,
men's and women's, all attack. The committee needs to take a look
at that. Look up Tucker Dordevic's number of GBs, number of TOs,
shoots damn near every time he touches the ball, rarely throws an
assist but the committee sees him as a better player than Adler.
It's garbage.

The love affair with Adler is a bit much. Great player - but the award goes to men who scores goals. He doesn’t. Move on.

Men and women.

The Tewaaraton Award is an annual award for the most outstanding American college lacrosse men's and women's players,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewaaraton_Award
How 'bout we start recognizing the award as a goal scorer's award rather than the most outstanding player then?

I agree with this fundamental point. It's supposed to be "outstanding player"...that's nearly always an attacker, but it shouldn't be the automatic assumption that an attacker is the most impactful player for their team, best in the nation at their position as well.

And to think that there are 5 attack that qualify as such more than any defender, midfielder, goalie or FOGO seems wrong. The ultimate winner of the award may well be attack...

I think for the men's side, two from Cornell may have seemed a barrier, moreover other outstanding defenders may have muddied the waters...but I definitely had Adler ahead of Dordevic.

Dordevic is simply not the best player at his position.
He could even have the most outstanding tournament, but that wouldn't make him the best player at his position.

Adler ahead of Dordevic is ridiculous. No defenseman has the impact a pure scorer has on a team. Give Adler the Schmeisser. He deserves it.

Dordevic wasn't even the best player on his own attack line for the first half of the season. Even now I would put a lot of money on Adler to completely erase Dordevic if they were matched up on each other.

Fortunately we have some tape on that and...well...check out 8:09 in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDA4zkEjnU8

slip n slide

[NNELax]

First guy drafted in the PLL.

No one is suggesting he isn’t an excellent player. McConvey at Virginia was 1st pick in the MLL draft and he might be the 4th best option on offense at Virginia. He has also often been shorted this season.

But you are. And it is pretty apparent that you haven't watched him play much this season. He shut down Lehigh's Scott Cole, Princeton's Coulter Mackesey (neither of whom registered a single point) and Matt Brandau, three of the top 20 scorers in lax this season. He handled other players as well, but you had to watch the games to see it. You are the lone voice with this opinion. Every single other person in the lax world - and on this board - is singing his praises. Adler has put together back to back seasons that are as good as any defenseman I have ever seen, and I am not alone with that view. He forces teams to scheme around him and teams are taking their best offensive player and taking him out of the offense to neutralize Adler - kind of a reverse intentional lock off.

You Cornell guys crack me up! Any questioning about whether Adler or Kirst is top 5 in line for the Teewarton and it’s a personal slight of the greatest magnitude. Wonder if there will be a bunch of slit wrists if Duke or Michigan beats them? IMO, No team is safe even in the 1st round and i mean none

You are too easily amused. I'm guessing you're about 8 years old. Duke shouldn't overlook Delaware and Cornell will show up on Sunday. Re the Tewaaraton trophy, it looks close between Kirst and O'Neill. The same re the Turnbull.

These guys definitely make it easy to root against Cornell...

[Finster]

Light shooting day for Tucker in that one, only managed 11 shots (led the team), put 3 in....nary an assist.
Curry with 10 shots, put 4 in, one assist.
Whole rest of the team took 21 shots.
A 4-10 season...we don't share the rock.

You sound like a jealous ex-girlfriend

When a guy takes a record 163 shots and cans only 29%, leading to a 4-10 season, it’s more than fair to question the player.

It’s still stunning to see Dordevic in the final five this year over Dickson. What an amazing failure by the Tewaaraton committee. Dickson must be wondering this morning ‘hey committee, what else did you want me to do?’

[rolldodge]

Light shooting day for Tucker in that one, only managed 11 shots (led the team), put 3 in....nary an assist.
Curry with 10 shots, put 4 in, one assist.
Whole rest of the team took 21 shots.
A 4-10 season...we don't share the rock.

You sound like a jealous ex-girlfriend

When a guy takes a record 163 shots and cans only 29%, leading to a 4-10 season, it’s more than fair to question the player.

It’s still stunning to see Dordevic in the final five this year over Dickson. What an amazing failure by the Tewaaraton committee. Dickson must be wondering this morning ‘hey committee, what else did you want me to do?’

Sounds more like a coaching issue to me. I think this year bears that out. Hilarious that you think your team went 4-10 because of one player.

[Atticus]

This vitriol on TD is clearly a personal obsession for one or two of you out there. Get over it. Life is short.

[tech37]

Light shooting day for Tucker in that one, only managed 11 shots (led the team), put 3 in....nary an assist.
Curry with 10 shots, put 4 in, one assist.
Whole rest of the team took 21 shots.
A 4-10 season...we don't share the rock.

You sound like a jealous ex-girlfriend

When a guy takes a record 163 shots and cans only 29%, leading to a 4-10 season, it’s more than fair to question the player.

It’s still stunning to see Dordevic in the final five this year over Dickson. What an amazing failure by the Tewaaraton committee. Dickson must be wondering this morning ‘hey committee, what else did you want me to do?’

Sounds more like a coaching issue to me. I think this year bears that our. Hilarious that you think your team went 4-10 because of one player.

IMO, rolldodge has this right.

And if SU had had TD this year, they may have won a couple of those tight games...Duke for instance.

[laxfan1313]

Adler's a great player, but the Ivy League was weak this year. He may be the best player as evidenced by the PLL draft. However, shutting down the best players on middle of the road teams from a weak conference will not and should not get a defender into the Tewey finals.

Dordevic has no business being on the list. 46 of his points have come in the last month against weak competition. The kid can play, but his play has not warranted consideration for the Tewey. Dickson would have been a far more deserving choice given he racked up points against a far harder schedule.

The Committee must have felt like they had to put someone from Virginia so they picked the best player by reputation and potential. I strongly disagree with the Shellenberger nomination. The guy has all the potential in the world, but production matters and he hasn't produced. He should be commended for playing through injuries, but those injuries should not be used to prop up what has been lackluster performance. Feels like the Committee has him on the list in case Virginia goes on a run to the championship as a hedge.

O'Neill plays lacrosse like Shaq played basketball, except O'Neill doesn't foul every play. Hard to see how he doesn't win it.

B.S. The Ivy League has 4 teams in the top 20 RPI and 3 out of 17 teams in the tourney. With 9 leagues receiving an AQ plus 5 ACC teams competing for 8 at-large bids, the Ivy league received 25% of the at-large bids and more than 1/6 of all bids. Adler shut down the top scorer in each game. Adler (and Kirst), both legit 1st Team AAs, likely unanimously, and candidates for the Schmeisser, Turnbull & Ennis awards are legit. Enough said.

ACC was far and away the best conference. Big 10 was the second best. Ivy was clear #3 based on the season. ACC had 60% of their conference receive at-large bids and those 3 received a top 3 seeding. Big 10 had 66.7% of the league make the tournament and 50% of the conference receive at-large bids, Ivy had 43% of their conference make the tournament and 28.7% receive at-large bids. Ivy's highest seed was an 8 seed, both the ACC and Big 10 had 3 teams seeded inside of 8

ACC isn't a "conference" in lacrosse. Cornell played Yale twice and Marquette which beat Penn State. Cornell was in the top 5 on Massey for most of the season and is #6 on Massey today. Cornell is sufficiently well-ranked for its players to command respect here & by the Tewaaraton Foundation.

the acc is absolutely a conference in lacrosse.

i agree it's weird for anyone to believe cornell or ivies don't carry sufficient competition. plus this topic is about an individual award, and i'm pretty sure who players play already factors in to selection. not to mention all the stats cited (and a basis for those tapped) are piled up vs all sorts of competition.

If the ACC were a "conference" it would have an AQ. According to the NCAA, to be a conference, 6 teams are required. They only have 5.

[laxfan1313]

First guy drafted in the PLL.

No one is suggesting he isn’t an excellent player. McConvey at Virginia was 1st pick in the MLL draft and he might be the 4th best option on offense at Virginia. He has also often been shorted this season.

But you are. And it is pretty apparent that you haven't watched him play much this season. He shut down Lehigh's Scott Cole, Princeton's Coulter Mackesey (neither of whom registered a single point) and Matt Brandau, three of the top 20 scorers in lax this season. He handled other players as well, but you had to watch the games to see it. You are the lone voice with this opinion. Every single other person in the lax world - and on this board - is singing his praises. Adler has put together back to back seasons that are as good as any defenseman I have ever seen, and I am not alone with that view. He forces teams to scheme around him and teams are taking their best offensive player and taking him out of the offense to neutralize Adler - kind of a reverse intentional lock off.

You Cornell guys crack me up! Any questioning about whether Adler or Kirst is top 5 in line for the Teewarton and it’s a personal slight of the greatest magnitude. Wonder if there will be a bunch of slit wrists if Duke or Michigan beats them? IMO, No team is safe even in the 1st round and i mean none

You are too easily amused. I'm guessing you're about 8 years old. Duke shouldn't overlook Delaware and Cornell will show up on Sunday. Re the Tewaaraton trophy, it looks close between Kirst and O'Neill. The same re the Turnbull.

These guys definitely make it easy to root against Cornell...

Your rooting against anyone won't impact any game.

[DMac]

Said long ago that coaching was a huge part of this and I don't put the blame on one player.
There was more than one player who played hog ball and was highly predictable.
Disagree that Cuse might have won more with TD, the ball moves with this O, that aint happenin'
when the ball goes in TD's stick....Hiltz aint throwin' no hockey assists (which are a thing of beauty)
and Spallina aint gettin' many opportunities either (not restricted to Spallina). Twelve assists for the
year from a guy who is doubled and tripled damn near every he touches the ball is a pretty good
indication of that. Enjoy fellas....not my kind of player (and I've seen him a lot). Oh, and GO BULLDOGS!!!!!

[joewillie78]

First guy drafted in the PLL.

No one is suggesting he isn’t an excellent player. McConvey at Virginia was 1st pick in the MLL draft and he might be the 4th best option on offense at Virginia. He has also often been shorted this season.

But you are. And it is pretty apparent that you haven't watched him play much this season. He shut down Lehigh's Scott Cole, Princeton's Coulter Mackesey (neither of whom registered a single point) and Matt Brandau, three of the top 20 scorers in lax this season. He handled other players as well, but you had to watch the games to see it. You are the lone voice with this opinion. Every single other person in the lax world - and on this board - is singing his praises. Adler has put together back to back seasons that are as good as any defenseman I have ever seen, and I am not alone with that view. He forces teams to scheme around him and teams are taking their best offensive player and taking him out of the offense to neutralize Adler - kind of a reverse intentional lock off.

You Cornell guys crack me up! Any questioning about whether Adler or Kirst is top 5 in line for the Teewarton and it’s a personal slight of the greatest magnitude. Wonder if there will be a bunch of slit wrists if Duke or Michigan beats them? IMO, No team is safe even in the 1st round and i mean none

You are too easily amused. I'm guessing you're about 8 years old. Duke shouldn't overlook Delaware and Cornell will show up on Sunday. Re the Tewaaraton trophy, it looks close between Kirst and O'Neill. The same re the Turnbull.

These guys definitely make it easy to root against Cornell...

Instead of rooting AGAINST Cornell, why not simply root FOR the team they are playing? I have always found it very difficult to root AGAINST a bunch of 18-23 old kids playing a game they love and sacrificing alot to do so.
Gobigred
Joewillie78

[rolldodge]

Said long ago that coaching was a huge part of this and I don't put the blame on one player.
There was more than one player who played hog ball and was highly predictable.
Disagree that Cuse might have won more with TD, the ball moves with this O, that aint happenin'
when the ball goes in TD's stick....Hiltz aint throwin' no hockey assists (which are a thing of beauty)
and Spallina aint gettin' many opportunities either (not restricted to Spallina). Twelve assists for the
year from a guy who is doubled and tripled damn near every he touches the ball is a pretty good
indication of that. Enjoy fellas....not my kind of player (and I've seen him a lot). Oh, and GO BULLDOGS!!!!!

LOL. I don't put the blame on one player, but here's a list of how one player would have ruined everything. Also, I'm going to strenuously root against him and for the opposing team which I have no other connection to.