2019 Bracketology Thread

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ICGrad
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by ICGrad »

Sllaxdad wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:21 am Qualifying for your own league tournament should be the first disqualifying factor . End of discussion.
I agree, though this adds an arbitrary variable into the equation. The Big 10 and Ivy League take 4 teams out of 6 and 7, respectively. The ACC takes 5 out of 5. Essentially, the bar to even be considered for a tourney bid is higher in the Ivies than it is in the Big 10, and the bar is nonexistent in the ACC.

If it started becoming an issue for those other conferences, where otherwise "worthy" teams were being denied consideration due to not making their conference tournaments, what would stop the conferences from increasing the number of participants? I mean, hell...they'd be foolish not to.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Hawkeye »

ICGrad wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:26 pm
Sllaxdad wrote: Sun Apr 28, 2019 7:21 am Qualifying for your own league tournament should be the first disqualifying factor . End of discussion.
If it started becoming an issue for those other conferences, where otherwise "worthy" teams were being denied consideration due to not making their conference tournaments, what would stop the conferences from increasing the number of participants? I mean, hell...they'd be foolish not to.
Yes yes yes. Artificial litmus tests are bad.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

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(Post updated. See below)
Last edited by Hawkeye on Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Sllaxdad »

That is the reason ACC now invites all 5 teams to their post season tournament. Now a team cannot be excluded simply by reason for not making their tourney. Have standards, in addition to an overall 500 record. Nothing to fear with published, objective the standards. Look at the improvement an objective shot v. The subjective “timer on” under the old rule. The sport suffers from an elite bias. Take as much control away from “club” that populates the selection committee In the next step,
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by calourie »

Laxbytes.com has an impressive "interactive futures probabiities" page with all the numbers changing permutations of the possible results of the opening games this coming week and weekend. The numbers Laxbytes uses which include RPI, Quality wiins and 1/2 of SOS (national positioning in each case) make it look like only Hopkins has the capability of altering Hawkeye's included teams with a first round conference tourney loss and that likely only happens if a number of other outcomes fall into place. The numbers make it look like Ohio State as well as UNC won't make it to the dance as at-larges no matter what. Everyone else (Denver, Villanova, UMass more specifically from a bubble standpoint) has to win their AQ to get to the dance. The teams with the greatest chance of improving their seeding are the Ivy triumverate of Penn, Yale, and Cornell, as well as Maryland. If Penn or Yale win the ILT they likely move into a 2 or 3 seed, the loser would drop a seed or two (unless Penn loses to Brown in round 1 of the ILT in which case they would likely lose their seed altogether). Cornell would become a 5-6 with the title, dropping the other two a bit as well perhaps even taking a seed away from Yale altogether. A loss to Yale by Cornell would leave them vulnerable to being dumped altogether there were unexpected winners in the BIG and PL tourneys. Maryland would likely end up at 2 or 3 with a BIG title, but on the other hand would likely lose their seeding with another loss to Hopkins The other meaningful change would be Loyola's seed, which is vulnerable if they don't win their league's title. Laxbytes's numbers don't include any winning conference finals permutations, so the conference title changes are a bit speculative on my part, but I think that is about how they will work out. The committee isn't totally numbers dependent so there is some hope for anyone who wants to do so. On the other hand Laxbytes has a 98.something accurate prediction percentage for tourney inclusion over the past six years so I would dismiss their projections with caution in order to avoid disappoinment.

This post has been amended given further monkeying around by myself on the above mentioned "interactive futures probabilities" page, which I'm leaving now to get on with my life.
Last edited by calourie on Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by ICGrad »

Laxbytes D3 probabilities are near-worthless, as they fail to take the AQ into consideration. As such, York/Salisbury, RIT, and Tufts/Williams/Weslyn all have 100% at-large probability [EDIT: At least 2 of those schools, and very likely 3 if RIT wins the LL, are AQs] , and 19 other schools share a small piece of the 200% remaining for the other 2 at-large bids.

Also, not sure what the NEWMAC is...
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by RedIvy »

Does the committee consider common opponents when trying to select one of two teams for final AL?

Hopkins and Cornell have 4 common opponents. Each with a similar win over Princeton and each with similar losses to Syracuse and Penn State. Cornell has a solid win over Towson while Hopkins has a significant loss here.

I would think this type of comparison would be important when choosing between two teams for a final spot.

I also think head to head should play a big part if they played each other.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by calourie »

The committee takes into account whatever they choose to,so each year has a little bit of a”what the huh” feel to it sometimes, and why last year’s inclusion of Villanova was so controversial. This year’s situation looks like it should be considerably less so except for those tired of seeing so many of the usual suspects .
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Hawkeye »

How I currently see the NCAA tournament field heading into the conference tournaments... if the tournament started today:
https://imgur.com/a/cppwksM

Bids by conference in my current projection:
ACC: 4 (Virginia, Duke, Notre Dame, Syracuse)
Ivy League: 3 (Pennsylvania, Yale, Cornell)
Big Ten: 2 (Penn State, Maryland)
Colonial: 2 (Massachusetts, Towson)


I currently have 9 teams (6 in the at-large section plus PSU/Penn/Loyola) listed as "locks," even though there are only 8 at-large bids . This means that if all hell breaks loose in all three of the Big Ten (Rutgers/JHU), Ivy League (Brown/Cornell), Patriot League (anyone but Loyola), someone who looks safe right now is going to be staying home.

There are four leagues that are certainly one bid leagues: America East, MAAC, NEC, SoCon. There are four teams still playing for one spot in each of these leagues.

I would say the Big East is almost 99% surely going to be a one bid league as well. It's very difficult to see a path for Villanova after their loss to Providence last week. If Denver beats Villanova and then loses to Georgetown in the finals, maybe they have an outside shot at an at-large bid. This is the only reason that I didn't include the Big East in the above statement.

And now for bubble talk. The most number of teams that I can see getting at-large berths from this list is TWO. However, this number dwindles with any of the AQ upsets that I mentioned above. All rankings are RPI.

#12 Cornell (10-4)
Best 5 wins: #8 Notre Dame, #9 Towson, #23 Princeton, #26 Lehigh, #28 Hobart
Losses: #1 Penn State, #4 Yale, #5 Pennsylvania, #10 Syracuse
Next game: vs. #4 Yale
Outlook: I believe that this is clearly the strongest current resume of any team on the bubble. They hold the head-to-head victory over their current nearest competition (Towson) and have no even remotely bad losses. I see Cornell as a near-tournament lock with a win over Yale on Friday. With a loss, though, they will be sweating come selection Sunday, as their fate will hinge on what everyone else does this week.

#9 Towson (9-4)
Best 5 wins: #6 Loyola, #11 Johns Hopkins, #17 Georgetown, #27 Delaware, #31 Drexel
Losses: #3 Duke, #12 Cornell, #14 Denver, #18 Massachusetts
Next game: vs. #27 Delaware
Outlook: Towson is currently bubble in in my projection, but they have very little opportunity to improve this resume for an at-large bid, as Delaware does not move the needle very much. Against other bubble teams, Towson is a mixed bag with a dominant win over Johns Hopkins in the first game of the season, a lopsided loss to Cornell in a neutral site game, and a low-scoring sloppy home loss to Denver. If Towson loses to Delaware, I think their season is over. With a win over Delaware and then a loss in the CAA championship game to UMass, this team will likely be right on the cut line - either the last team in or the first team out.

#11 Johns Hopkins (7-6)
Best 5 wins: #7 Maryland, #16 North Carolina, #22 Rutgers, #23 Princeton, #27 Delaware
Losses: #1 Penn State, #2 Virginia, #6 Loyola, #9 Towson, #10 Syracuse, #13 Ohio State
Next game: vs. #7 Maryland
Outlook: This Johns Hopkins team was lacking a signature win until Saturday night, when they finally found one by beating Maryland. Seven losses would be by far the most of any team being considered for an at-large berth, but there are no bad losses on that list. Another win over Maryland in the Big Ten tournament will put this team solidly in the field, but it will be extremely dicey without it. In my eyes, this resume currently clearly lags behind those of Cornell and Towson. I don't see any way that Hopkins can leapfrog Cornell without another win over Maryland, so, if Hopkins loses round 2, the Blue Jays need Towson to win the CAA to open up another at-large spot or for Delaware to upset Towson to weaken Towson's resume... or the Jays' season will almost certainly end earlier than they are accustomed to.

#13 Ohio State (8-4)
Best 5 wins: #8 Notre Dame, #11 Johns Hopkins, #18 Massachusetts, #24 Boston University, #35 Bucknell
Losses: #1 Penn State, #7 Maryland, #22 Rutgers, #34 Michigan
Next game: (none)
Outlook: The loss to Michigan was a double whammy. It was clearly the worst loss that any bubble team has suffered, and it also keeps Ohio State on the sideline this week, while all other bubble teams will have a chance to further improve their resume. This Ohio State team needs a lot of help to get into the NCAA tournament: 1) PSU/UMCP win the Big Ten, 2) Loyola wins PL, 3) Towson AQ or loss to Delaware, 4) Hopkins loss to UMCP. If all of that happens, this team may have a chance of being the last team in the tournament, and that's still not a sure thing.

#14 Denver (9-4)
Best 5 wins: #9 Towson, #16 North Carolina, #17 Georgetown, #21 Air Force, #38 Marquette
Losses: #3 Duke, #8 Notre Dame, #15 Villanova, #23 Princeton
Next game: #15 Villanova
Outlook: This is the most longshot at-large bid of any that I'm willing to even discuss, and Denver probably should approach the Big East tournament thinking that they are AQ or bust. For this team to even have a backdoor chance at an at-large bid, a win over Villanova on Thursday is a must. The biggest thing that this Denver team has going for it is that Denver has the head-to-head over Towson if it somehow comes down to those two teams for the last spot. See all that Ohio State needs to happen for it, and that's also the gist of what Denver needs, but I would say additionally needs Georgetown to beat Providence.
Last edited by Hawkeye on Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:32 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by calourie »

Agree with all you have written, Hawkeye. Nice fleshing out of the possibilities.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

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Hawkeye wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:49 pm Colonial: 2 (Massachusetts, Towson)
Assuming Towson were to win the CAA, you would put Hopkins in over UMass, right?
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

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D1 MEN: Numerous teams need to win their Conference Tournament to qualify. For the rest, either your season is done or you're in. Except Hopkins who needs to either win the B1G or not have Rutgers or Brown win their tourneys (which they won't). In other words, the teams are set.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

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laxreference wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:04 pm Assuming Towson were to win the CAA, you would put Hopkins in over UMass, right?
Yes, I would say that Hopkins is currently the last team in if you hold everything constant except the CAA AQ. Do you agree?
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

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Towson-UMass winner is in. Loser is out. Towson and JHU are the two cusp teams thus, losing to either, precludes you from being in the tourney. So, UMass needs to win. And, if UMass does win, Towson just lost to UMass so... they'd be out.

Hawkeye, we think this thing is set.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Hawkeye »

admin wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:08 pm Towson-UMass winner is in. Loser is out. Towson and JHU are the two cusp teams thus, losing to either, precludes you from being in the tourney. So, UMass needs to win. And, if UMass does win, Towson just lost to UMass so... they'd be out.

Hawkeye, we think this thing is set.
Loyola potentially not winning the Patriot League is the biggest monkey wrench out there that I could see upsetting the scenario in your article.

And I'm not completely sold that in this scenario:
UMCP>JHU
Towson>UD
UMass>Drexel
UMass>Towson

That Towson doesn't get the last at-large spot over Hopkins.

-

Ohio State and Denver need so much to happen to even be in the discussion for an at-large that I don't think it's really worth thinking too much about right now, but I still see those as slim possibilities that are out there for the committee if things fall just right.
Last edited by Hawkeye on Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by HopFan16 »

Hawkeye wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:49 pm Another win over Maryland in the Big Ten tournament will put this team solidly in the field, but I do not see them making the cut without it.
What if Towson wins the CAA?

FYI: Towson plays Delaware. UMass plays Drexel.

All three of Cornell, Towson, and Hopkins can make it if Loyola and Towson win their respective conference tournaments. I think Ohio State is out after losing to Michigan and failing to even make their conference tournament. A 7-7 Hopkins team certainly does not inspire awe but who could jump them? Even with a win over Nova, Denver's resume isn't any better.

You mentioned Hopkins has to root for Towson to lose to Delaware to weaken their resume—I'm not sure that's the case. If Hopkins beats Maryland again then I agree it doesn't really matter what Towson does as Hopkins should be solidly in the field and possibly even hosting. But if Hopkins loses, they've got to root for Towson to win the CAA so that there's another at-large slot available, don't they? If Hopkins and Towson both lose then to me it looks more like keeping current status quo, and Towson would get in ahead of Hopkins based on the head-to-head victory. I don't think Towson would fall enough in the RPI even with a loss. According to LaxBytes interactive thing, Towson only drops to 10, Hop would stay at 11 if both teams lose.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Homer »

Towson plays Delaware next, not Drexel.

Great analysis overall. I think I'd be a little less bearish than you seem to be on Denver... I gather you see them as clearly behind Hopkins right now for an AL, which is certainly a possible way of looking at it but I wouldn't bet the farm on the committee not seeing it the other way around. "Best 5 wins" is a very reasonable way of looking at things, but doesn't correspond to how things are actually set up for the committee -- to them Denver's a team with 3 QWs to Hopkins' 2, and depending on results this week AFA could become a 4th.

When you get to the bitter end, it often comes down to the classic high-SOS team with a mediocre record, some decent wins, no bad losses vs. the lower-SOS team that mixes in super-high-end wins with an RPI-ugly loss or two. Which you prefer isn't so much a principled decision as an aesthetic preference, a taste, a sensibility. Can't always guarantee which way the committee's going to go.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Hawkeye »

HopFan16 wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:17 pm What if Towson wins the CAA?

FYI: Towson plays Delaware. UMass plays Drexel.
You're right that I messed up on the CAA stuff/scenarios relating to it. I updated a little bit to better reflect that. Thanks!
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by HopFan16 »

Homer wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:18 pm Towson plays Delaware next, not Drexel.

Great analysis overall. I think I'd be a little less bearish than you seem to be on Denver... I gather you see them as clearly behind Hopkins right now for an AL, which is certainly a possible way of looking at it but I wouldn't bet the farm on the committee not seeing it the other way around. "Best 5 wins" is a very reasonable way of looking at things, but doesn't correspond to how things are actually set up for the committee -- to them Denver's a team with 3 QWs to Hopkins' 2, and depending on results this week AFA could become a 4th.

When you get to the bitter end, it often comes down to the classic high-SOS team with a mediocre record, some decent wins, no bad losses vs. the lower-SOS team that mixes in super-high-end wins with an RPI-ugly loss or two. Which you prefer isn't so much a principled decision as an aesthetic preference, a taste, a sensibility. Can't always guarantee which way the committee's going to go.
Historically the committee does not give at-large selections to teams with RPIs below #12 or so. Hopkins is #11 currently and unlikely to fall below #12 even with a loss to Maryland. Based on LaxBytes I don't see how Denver can finish better than #14 if they don't win the Big East. Hop's average RPI win, average RPI loss, and SOS are all much better. Hop plays a vasty harder schedule, which would account for the worse record, and would have the best win of the bunch over Maryland. Obviously I'm advocating for my guys here but as best I can tell objectively, the committee will favor a resume like Hop's over Denver's if it comes down to that.
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Re: 2019 Bracketology Thread

Post by Homer »

Hawkeye wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:13 pm

And I'm not completely sold that in this scenario:
UMCP>JHU
Towson>Drexel
UMass>UD
UMass>Towson

That Towson doesn't get the last at-large spot over Hopkins.
I have no idea why Towson wouldn't be ahead of Hopkins in that scenario. Won head-to-head; beat Loyola who beat Hopkins; no losses to common opponents; more QWs (3 to 2); better record vs. similar SOS. Tigers are better on like almost literally every metric.
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