Tewaaraton Finalist

[HockeyLaxGolf42]

1. O’Neill
2. Kirst
3. Shelley
4. Adler
5. Kav
6. Dickson

[10stone5]

I don’t know about any order right now,
depends on the tournament or tournaments,

but yeah, that looks like the finalists, one of which will get dropped.

[CU88a]

Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.

Two reasons. First, personal bias. Second, I do not expect Notre Dame to win the tournament and therefore do not think Kavanaugh will win.

Interesting point, makes me wonder are those posting here suggesting who they think "will" win or who they think "should" win the Award?

[Finster]

1. O’Neill
2. Kirst
3. Shelley
4. Adler
5. Kav
6. Dickson

I realize Will Mark of Syracuse won’t win, and that both Entenmann and Ierlan have higher save percentages, but I’m also not sure any other D1 player impacted their team as much as this kid.

I think Mark led to at least three more wins Syracuse likely would not have gotten without him. Every game I saw of Cuse, this kid stood tall.

[blue angels]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.

Strength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.

As for excluding the Kavanaughs....., this is a message Board and these are anonymous opinions so there's just that........ Both Kavanaugh's got handcuffed against Virginia's close D twice. Their pedestrian performance in that game last weekend didn't help them at all in the Teewarton race. They also have gotten a rep for a lack of sportsmanship and dirty play. None of it helps their case, but we will see what happens in the tournament. No one has won this award yet. Nor is it down to just 2 or 3 players.

Aware that it's a message board. I was just surprised at the emerging consensus [here, on this thread] that left him out of the conversation. I certainly think he's up there, even with Dickson as my vote [so far, pre-tourney].

I appreciate that you responded with an actual explanation. I disagree that 2/2 and 1/2 stat lines (+ 7 GBs) are handcuffing, but agree that it was below average for him in 2 of ND's biggest games.

Let's see what happens in the tournament.

Did you see the games? Sure, they got a few points but they were largely taken out of the game. The offense goes through the Kavanaughs and Notre Dame had their lowest point total of the season at 8. The announcers sure thought they were handcuffed and completely out played. Don't know how anyone who watched wouldnt have thought both of them had poor games, especially the 2nd time.

[Bystanders]

1. O’Neill
2. Kirst
3. Shelley
4. Adler
5. Kav
6. Dickson

Inexplicably Dickson didn’t make the final 25 list. I thought that list was final, but if he ends up with 70 goals on 57% shooting and leading the UVA attack in GBs, CTOs, and they win, can he be added back?

[BetweenTheLines]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.

Strength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.

As for excluding the Kavanaughs....., this is a message Board and these are anonymous opinions so there's just that........ Both Kavanaugh's got handcuffed against Virginia's close D twice. Their pedestrian performance in that game last weekend didn't help them at all in the Teewarton race. They also have gotten a rep for a lack of sportsmanship and dirty play. None of it helps their case, but we will see what happens in the tournament. No one has won this award yet. Nor is it down to just 2 or 3 players.

Aware that it's a message board. I was just surprised at the emerging consensus [here, on this thread] that left him out of the conversation. I certainly think he's up there, even with Dickson as my vote [so far, pre-tourney].

I appreciate that you responded with an actual explanation. I disagree that 2/2 and 1/2 stat lines (+ 7 GBs) are handcuffing, but agree that it was below average for him in 2 of ND's biggest games.

Let's see what happens in the tournament.

Did you see the games? Sure, they got a few points but they were largely taken out of the game. The offense goes through the Kavanaughs and Notre Dame had their lowest point total of the season at 8. The announcers sure thought they were handcuffed and completely out played. Don't know how anyone who watched wouldnt have thought both of them had poor games, especially the 2nd time.

Yes. Bad games for ND and subpar for him. But also not so different to Shellenberger vs. Maryland or vs. Duke. Or O'Neill vs. ND.

[ny10458]

I think Tucker Dordevic should be in this conversation, especially if he continues his current level of play into the tournament. 70 points on the season while shooting 35%. Draws the #1 pole every game. If this award is on isolated individual performance, he should be in the conversation.

[Farfromgeneva]

Another name that isn’t recognized but should be on the short list next year IMO is Chris Lyons. Tearing it up again as a soph at 56,10 going into today.

[UVAlaxfan]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.

Strength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.

As for excluding the Kavanaughs....., this is a message Board and these are anonymous opinions so there's just that........ Both Kavanaugh's got handcuffed against Virginia's close D twice. Their pedestrian performance in that game last weekend didn't help them at all in the Teewarton race. They also have gotten a rep for a lack of sportsmanship and dirty play. None of it helps their case, but we will see what happens in the tournament. No one has won this award yet. Nor is it down to just 2 or 3 players.

Aware that it's a message board. I was just surprised at the emerging consensus [here, on this thread] that left him out of the conversation. I certainly think he's up there, even with Dickson as my vote [so far, pre-tourney].

I appreciate that you responded with an actual explanation. I disagree that 2/2 and 1/2 stat lines (+ 7 GBs) are handcuffing, but agree that it was below average for him in 2 of ND's biggest games.

Let's see what happens in the tournament.

Did you see the games? Sure, they got a few points but they were largely taken out of the game. The offense goes through the Kavanaughs and Notre Dame had their lowest point total of the season at 8. The announcers sure thought they were handcuffed and completely out played. Don't know how anyone who watched wouldnt have thought both of them had poor games, especially the 2nd time.

Kid with 3 points got one of them in very late in the game with 2:22 left and down 5. 1-1 and before that is pretty low on production front. Chris also assisted pat's goal which takes nothing away from either but does reduce their total contribution. So they played a part in 3 goals in that game and then added the garbage time assist.

[MoralTerpitude]

I'm surprised with the consensus excluding Kavanagh as well. I'm not a fan of him, but he aside from his brother and Dobson, there isn't a lot of support on offense. Taylor seems to have regressed a bit this year (not sure if it's injuries again or what). He, like Kirst, also contributes in other ways, especially ground balls.

IMO the top three are Kavanagh, Kirst, and O'Neill. Can't put any of the UVa guys in there because they have too much talent on offense, which inflates all of their numbers. Adler and Mackesy would round out my top 5.

[random observer]

Plenty of time for someone to take charge of the race in the tournament, but as it stands, I think Kirst has separated himself just a little bit from O'Neill. Slightly more points in fewer games, with a slightly higher shooting percentage. Caveat that Duke has had a tougher schedule, but where Kirst really separates himself is the second layer statistics. He has a significant lead in GBs (35 to 23), CTs (13 to 3), and has fewer TOs (19 vs. 24).

I have Kav a shade below O'Neill for number 3 primarily because he's been held in check several times in some of NDs bigger games, and his shooting efficiency is lower (almost 10% lower shooting percentage, despite a better SOG %, so not only is he not scoring as efficiently, but goalies are making more saves on him which ends possessions).

I think it would be useful for shooting percentage on SOG to become a more prevalent stat. Not all missed shots are created equal; a shot that misses the cage isn't usually harmful, whereas a saved shot is essentially a TO.

[BetweenTheLines]

IMO the top three are Kavanagh, Kirst, and O'Neill. Can't put any of the UVa guys in there because they have too much talent on offense, which inflates all of their numbers. Adler and Mackesy would round out my top 5.

US Lacrosse seems to agree with you. Mackesy probably out of the running, so could be down to the other 4?

[Gatsby]

I'm surprised with the consensus excluding Kavanagh as well. I'm not a fan of him, but he aside from his brother and Dobson, there isn't a lot of support on offense. Taylor seems to have regressed a bit this year (not sure if it's injuries again or what). He, like Kirst, also contributes in other ways, especially ground balls.

I'd say Kavanagh is still squarely in the running.

IMO the top three are Kavanagh, Kirst, and O'Neill. Can't put any of the UVa guys in there because they have too much talent on offense, which inflates all of their numbers.

Wasn't that the case with Wisnauskas last year?

[MoralTerpitude]

IMO the top three are Kavanagh, Kirst, and O'Neill. Can't put any of the UVa guys in there because they have too much talent on offense, which inflates all of their numbers.

Wasn't that the case with Wisnauskas last year?

No. The Terps were just as deep, but Wisnauskas was head and shoulders above the rest of the team. Most goals by far, most assists by far. Clearly the offensive MVP on the Terps.

2022 Terps Top 3:
Wisnauskas 61G 42A 103P
Khan 35G 28A 63P
Demaio 33G 21A 54P

2023 Cavs Top 3:
Dickson 56G 18A 74P
Shellenberger 19G 43A 62P
Cormier 43G 11A 54P

[Finster]

IMO the top three are Kavanagh, Kirst, and O'Neill. Can't put any of the UVa guys in there because they have too much talent on offense, which inflates all of their numbers.

Wasn't that the case with Wisnauskas last year?

No. The Terps were just as deep, but Wisnauskas was head and shoulders above the rest of the team. Most goals by far, most assists by far. Clearly the offensive MVP on the Terps.

2022 Terps Top 3:
Wisnauskas 61G 42A 103P
Khan 35G 28A 63P
Demaio 33G 21A 54P

2023 Cavs Top 3:
Dickson 56G 18A 74P
Shellenberger 19G 43A 62P
Cormier 43G 11A 54P

Kavanaugh’s shooting % is 29%. That’s as bad as most first-year freshmen.

In no universe should he be in the final three.

[Finster]

Plenty of time for someone to take charge of the race in the tournament, but as it stands, I think Kirst has separated himself just a little bit from O'Neill. Slightly more points in fewer games, with a slightly higher shooting percentage. Caveat that Duke has had a tougher schedule, but where Kirst really separates himself is the second layer statistics. He has a significant lead in GBs (35 to 23), CTs (13 to 3), and has fewer TOs (19 vs. 24).

I have Kav a shade below O'Neill for number 3 primarily because he's been held in check several times in some of NDs bigger games, and his shooting efficiency is lower (almost 10% lower shooting percentage, despite a better SOG %, so not only is he not scoring as efficiently, but goalies are making more saves on him which ends possessions).

I think it would be useful for shooting percentage on SOG to become a more prevalent stat. Not all missed shots are created equal; a shot that misses the cage isn't usually harmful, whereas a saved shot is essentially a TO.

Kavanaugh’s shooting percentage is 29%. He wouldn’t register in the top 100 in D1.

In what universe do you reward that?!

I’m sincerely curious.

[MoralTerpitude]

Plenty of time for someone to take charge of the race in the tournament, but as it stands, I think Kirst has separated himself just a little bit from O'Neill. Slightly more points in fewer games, with a slightly higher shooting percentage. Caveat that Duke has had a tougher schedule, but where Kirst really separates himself is the second layer statistics. He has a significant lead in GBs (35 to 23), CTs (13 to 3), and has fewer TOs (19 vs. 24).

I have Kav a shade below O'Neill for number 3 primarily because he's been held in check several times in some of NDs bigger games, and his shooting efficiency is lower (almost 10% lower shooting percentage, despite a better SOG %, so not only is he not scoring as efficiently, but goalies are making more saves on him which ends possessions).

I think it would be useful for shooting percentage on SOG to become a more prevalent stat. Not all missed shots are created equal; a shot that misses the cage isn't usually harmful, whereas a saved shot is essentially a TO.

Kavanaugh’s shooting percentage is 29%. He wouldn’t register in the top 100 in D1.

In what universe do you reward that?!

I’m sincerely curious.

It’s funny you say that, because that’s what I’ve always mentioned too. But I’ve come to appreciate that he is driving a top-three team on offense and on the ride. Notre Dame doesn’t have alot of offensive options like the other top teams, so teams can key on him.

So I think he gets a pass on shooting efficiency. He’s also not a volume shooter like a Dordevic; he’s taking less than six shots a game.

[ny10458]

Why not Dordevic?

[blue angels]

Plenty of time for someone to take charge of the race in the tournament, but as it stands, I think Kirst has separated himself just a little bit from O'Neill. Slightly more points in fewer games, with a slightly higher shooting percentage. Caveat that Duke has had a tougher schedule, but where Kirst really separates himself is the second layer statistics. He has a significant lead in GBs (35 to 23), CTs (13 to 3), and has fewer TOs (19 vs. 24).

I have Kav a shade below O'Neill for number 3 primarily because he's been held in check several times in some of NDs bigger games, and his shooting efficiency is lower (almost 10% lower shooting percentage, despite a better SOG %, so not only is he not scoring as efficiently, but goalies are making more saves on him which ends possessions).

I think it would be useful for shooting percentage on SOG to become a more prevalent stat. Not all missed shots are created equal; a shot that misses the cage isn't usually harmful, whereas a saved shot is essentially a TO.

If Cornell loses either of their 1st 2 games, Kirst doesn't have a prayer. If he outplays O' Neill and they get by Duke, he becomes the favorite. Although good, I am not even convinced he is the best attack man but it won't matter.