As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark
You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.
Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.
I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.
Tewaaraton Finalist
-
- Posts: 23828
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:53 am
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Best everrolldodge wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 11:44 pmIf Brodie Merrill didn't win the Tewaaraton, no defenseman will.jrn19 wrote: ↑Wed May 03, 2023 8:56 pm Dickson and Cormier deserve consideration, but if Mac O'Keefe is our example or reference... O'Keefe wasn't the finalist. Ament was. Just in terms of what's probably going to happen, I doubt Dickson's going to be the finalist. Shellenberger will be. And frankly I don't think two guys from one attack unit should be finalists in a 5 person group, aside from the Lyle/Myles year where both won it which was cool IMO.
When Ament left that offense...we saw what happened to O'Keefe's numbers. Twice in fact. He was a great, great player. But he depended a lot more on Ament in terms of his production than Ament did on O'Keefe; even if their relationship in particular was remarkably symbiotic, maybe the most symbiotic of any dynamic duo type attackmen.
I think the discussion of whether offenses put their 6 best dodgers or construction of offenses vs who should win awards are two different things. The Tewaaraton and these awards are about picking the best player. And the best player, in terms of how the game is played right now - doesn't mean forever - is usually the one who commands the attention from the defense in terms of his dodging to open up the rest of the offense for others. They are who the offense is built around and from.
But also, there are differences in this. CJ Kirst doesn't pass like Shellenberger or even O'Neill. He's much more comparable to when Bernhardt won it by just being purely the most dominant dodger and getting a ton of goals off of winning his matchup repeatedly. So there's still variation in picking your choice.
However none of these guys should win it, it should be Gavin Adler.
Now I love those cowboys, I love their gold
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Love my uncle, God rest his soul
Taught me good, Lord, taught me all I know
Taught me so well, that I grabbed that gold
I left his dead ass there by the side of the road, yeah
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Right now the two lefties are neck and neck, but the Charlottesville native could take it with a big tournament performance.
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 9:35 am As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark
You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.
Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.
I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.
^^your post is a bullseye.
Excellent write up. I could not agree more.
- youthathletics
- Posts: 15927
- Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:36 pm
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Dickson not being there is a bad look, he beats CS in every stat but assists and penalties...and is a senior: https://static.virginiasports.com/custo ... m#TEAM.IND
A fraudulent intent, however carefully concealed at the outset, will generally, in the end, betray itself.
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
~Livy
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” -Soren Kierkegaard
- BetweenTheLines
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:13 am
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
It's not a career or potential award. As a result, I agree with most that Dickson deserves this over Shellenberger.Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 9:35 am As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark
You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.
Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.
I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.
Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.
☘ 2023 2024
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.
- BetweenTheLines
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:13 am
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.
☘ 2023 2024
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Strength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:56 amOk, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.
-
- Posts: 824
- Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:37 pm
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
As for excluding the Kavanaughs....., this is a message Board and these are anonymous opinions so there's just that........ Both Kavanaugh's got handcuffed against Virginia's close D twice. Their pedestrian performance in that game last weekend didn't help them at all in the Teewarton race. They also have gotten a rep for a lack of sportsmanship and dirty play. None of it helps their case, but we will see what happens in the tournament. No one has won this award yet. Nor is it down to just 2 or 3 players.10stone5 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 4:41 amStrength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:56 amOk, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.
- BetweenTheLines
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:13 am
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Aware that it's a message board. I was just surprised at the emerging consensus [here, on this thread] that left him out of the conversation. I certainly think he's up there, even with Dickson as my vote [so far, pre-tourney].blue angels wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 8:48 amAs for excluding the Kavanaughs....., this is a message Board and these are anonymous opinions so there's just that........ Both Kavanaugh's got handcuffed against Virginia's close D twice. Their pedestrian performance in that game last weekend didn't help them at all in the Teewarton race. They also have gotten a rep for a lack of sportsmanship and dirty play. None of it helps their case, but we will see what happens in the tournament. No one has won this award yet. Nor is it down to just 2 or 3 players.10stone5 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 4:41 amStrength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:56 amOk, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.
I appreciate that you responded with an actual explanation. I disagree that 2/2 and 1/2 stat lines (+ 7 GBs) are handcuffing, but agree that it was below average for him in 2 of ND's biggest games.
Let's see what happens in the tournament.
☘ 2023 2024
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Since when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.
There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Be interesting to see the stats for players ONLY vs to 20 teams. Not saying i agree with the SOS criteria per se but it would give clarity on how the best players fared vs a more uniform set of competition.
- BetweenTheLines
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:13 am
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Completely agree. Arguments about (i) showing up in big games or (ii) padding stats in less competitive games only arise when we all care (at least a little bit) about how good someone's opponent is.HopFan16 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:54 amSince when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.
There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.
☘ 2023 2024
-
- Posts: 824
- Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:37 pm
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
This is true to a point, but if Robert Morris, Lehigh, etc, etc ride their star player to the Memorial Day weekend Title game and the other candidates don't really distinguish themselves nearly as much in the tournament, that could supersede the regular season SOS argument. There is no Lyle Thompson or Pat Spencer playing this year. Anyone ready to hand the award to O' Neill, Kavanaugh, Makar, Shellenberger, etc, etc, now may be in for a rude awakening.HopFan16 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:54 amSince when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.
There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Two reasons. First, personal bias. Second, I do not expect Notre Dame to win the tournament and therefore do not think Kavanaugh will win.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 2:37 pm Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Honest like that.Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 12:39 pmTwo reasons. First, personal bias. Second, I do not expect Notre Dame to win the tournament and therefore do not think Kavanaugh will win.BetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 2:37 pm Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
Yes Cuse at the bottom of ACC D is great, FYI, ACC D is not superior to top Patriot teams.HopFan16 wrote: ↑Fri May 05, 2023 10:54 amSince when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.
There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.
-
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2023 3:02 pm
Re: Tewaaraton Finalist
No way you can put Dickson over Shelley. Shelley is what makes that offense tick. Dickson not a creator. He’s a finisher. Incredibly good at it with that being said but he fills a role on that offense. Similar to when Laviano was thereBetweenTheLines wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 2:37 pmIt's not a career or potential award. As a result, I agree with most that Dickson deserves this over Shellenberger.Hoxwurth wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 9:35 am As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark
You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.
Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.
I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.
Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.