Tewaaraton Finalist

[Hoxwurth]

As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark

You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.

Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.

I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.

[Farfromgeneva]

Dickson and Cormier deserve consideration, but if Mac O'Keefe is our example or reference... O'Keefe wasn't the finalist. Ament was. Just in terms of what's probably going to happen, I doubt Dickson's going to be the finalist. Shellenberger will be. And frankly I don't think two guys from one attack unit should be finalists in a 5 person group, aside from the Lyle/Myles year where both won it which was cool IMO.

When Ament left that offense...we saw what happened to O'Keefe's numbers. Twice in fact. He was a great, great player. But he depended a lot more on Ament in terms of his production than Ament did on O'Keefe; even if their relationship in particular was remarkably symbiotic, maybe the most symbiotic of any dynamic duo type attackmen.

I think the discussion of whether offenses put their 6 best dodgers or construction of offenses vs who should win awards are two different things. The Tewaaraton and these awards are about picking the best player. And the best player, in terms of how the game is played right now - doesn't mean forever - is usually the one who commands the attention from the defense in terms of his dodging to open up the rest of the offense for others. They are who the offense is built around and from.

But also, there are differences in this. CJ Kirst doesn't pass like Shellenberger or even O'Neill. He's much more comparable to when Bernhardt won it by just being purely the most dominant dodger and getting a ton of goals off of winning his matchup repeatedly. So there's still variation in picking your choice.

However none of these guys should win it, it should be Gavin Adler.

If Brodie Merrill didn't win the Tewaaraton, no defenseman will.

Best ever

[molo]

Right now the two lefties are neck and neck, but the Charlottesville native could take it with a big tournament performance.

[Finster]

As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark

You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.

Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.

I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.

^^your post is a bullseye.

Excellent write up. I could not agree more.

[10stone5]

As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark

Gavin Adler needs to be in any finalists list, final five.

[youthathletics]

As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark

Gavin Adler needs to be in any finalists list, final five.

Dickson not being there is a bad look, he beats CS in every stat but assists and penalties...and is a senior: https://static.virginiasports.com/custo ... m#TEAM.IND

[BetweenTheLines]

As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark

You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.

Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.

I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.

It's not a career or potential award. As a result, I agree with most that Dickson deserves this over Shellenberger.

Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.

[10stone5]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

[BetweenTheLines]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.

[10stone5]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.

Strength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.

[blue angels]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.

Strength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.

As for excluding the Kavanaughs....., this is a message Board and these are anonymous opinions so there's just that........ Both Kavanaugh's got handcuffed against Virginia's close D twice. Their pedestrian performance in that game last weekend didn't help them at all in the Teewarton race. They also have gotten a rep for a lack of sportsmanship and dirty play. None of it helps their case, but we will see what happens in the tournament. No one has won this award yet. Nor is it down to just 2 or 3 players.

[BetweenTheLines]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Ok, I'll bite. Forget I said SoS. What is the rationale for excluding Kavanagh from the top 5? The other points still stand.

Strength of Schedule has nothing at all to do with picking the players of the year - tournament play is a major key, as well as high level play throughout the year. The USILA awards come out before the Final Four, the Tewaaraton Award ceremony is right after the Finals.
Kavanaugh may be in the final five or he may not.
There is not a certain front runner this year.
So it may come down to Final Four weekend before the top player for this year is decided on.

As for excluding the Kavanaughs....., this is a message Board and these are anonymous opinions so there's just that........ Both Kavanaugh's got handcuffed against Virginia's close D twice. Their pedestrian performance in that game last weekend didn't help them at all in the Teewarton race. They also have gotten a rep for a lack of sportsmanship and dirty play. None of it helps their case, but we will see what happens in the tournament. No one has won this award yet. Nor is it down to just 2 or 3 players.

Aware that it's a message board. I was just surprised at the emerging consensus [here, on this thread] that left him out of the conversation. I certainly think he's up there, even with Dickson as my vote [so far, pre-tourney].

I appreciate that you responded with an actual explanation. I disagree that 2/2 and 1/2 stat lines (+ 7 GBs) are handcuffing, but agree that it was below average for him in 2 of ND's biggest games.

Let's see what happens in the tournament.

[HopFan16]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Since when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.

There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.

[HGK]

Be interesting to see the stats for players ONLY vs to 20 teams. Not saying i agree with the SOS criteria per se but it would give clarity on how the best players fared vs a more uniform set of competition.

[BetweenTheLines]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Since when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.

There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.

Completely agree. Arguments about (i) showing up in big games or (ii) padding stats in less competitive games only arise when we all care (at least a little bit) about how good someone's opponent is.

[blue angels]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Since when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.

There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.

This is true to a point, but if Robert Morris, Lehigh, etc, etc ride their star player to the Memorial Day weekend Title game and the other candidates don't really distinguish themselves nearly as much in the tournament, that could supersede the regular season SOS argument. There is no Lyle Thompson or Pat Spencer playing this year. Anyone ready to hand the award to O' Neill, Kavanaugh, Makar, Shellenberger, etc, etc, now may be in for a rude awakening.

[Hoxwurth]

Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.

Two reasons. First, personal bias. Second, I do not expect Notre Dame to win the tournament and therefore do not think Kavanaugh will win.

[lorin]

Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.

Two reasons. First, personal bias. Second, I do not expect Notre Dame to win the tournament and therefore do not think Kavanaugh will win.

Honest like that.

[lorin]

Strength of schedule isn’t a measure in determining player of the year, that’s a made-up measure.

Since when is SOS not a factor? There's a reason Robert Morris' Ryan Smith and LIU's Richie LaCalandra were not Tewaaraton finalists in 2021 despite being #2 and #3 in the country in points per game behind Jared Bernhardt that year. Same reason why Lehigh's Scott Cole is not in the mix this year despite being fourth in the country in PPG and having more than twice as many goals as Pat Kavanagh. He's racked up a ton of points against mediocre Patriot League teams.

There are no official measures used as criteria for the award but the strength of the opponents a player faces is absolutely a consideration — and that is essentially the same thing. It always has been.

Yes Cuse at the bottom of ACC D is great, FYI, ACC D is not superior to top Patriot teams.

[HockeyLaxGolf42]

As of today, it should be:
1. O'Neil
2. Kirst
3. Dickson
4. Shellenberger
5. Will Mark

You could shift 3-5 around for me. O'Neil and Kirst should be considered in the lead subject to the tournament. The idea that O'Neil has it locked down is absurd. He's had the season, and he's had the big plays, but folks are underrating his supporting cast, which is quite good. Similarly, people are underrating Kirst. He has the second highest ceiling in this group--just watch the first quarter of the last Princeton game. As for Dickson, he's standing out in a supremely talented cast. If anything, he should get more credit for his play where guys like McConvey are taking a back seat to him. /smh Shellenberger has two knocks: he's been injured and his shooting has been poor relative to his lofty standards. He may be the best player in Virginia's history, and at his best has the potential to steal the Tewey.

Any of those four could "earn" the Tewey with a standout tournament performance.

I added Mark because he's faced a ton of quality shots due to the porous defense. Dude has absolutely made a difference and people are talking differently about 2024 if Mark doesn't provide 2023 stability. Shame he won't get a chance in the tournament to steal a game or two.

It's not a career or potential award. As a result, I agree with most that Dickson deserves this over Shellenberger.

Why the exclusion of Kavanagh? High PPG than O'Neill and Shellenberger. Highest GB/game among the top performing attackmen. His "down" games (~3 PPG) also seem to be better performances than Shellenberger's and O'Neill's "down" games. Stronger SoS than Kirst and Cornell too.

No way you can put Dickson over Shelley. Shelley is what makes that offense tick. Dickson not a creator. He’s a finisher. Incredibly good at it with that being said but he fills a role on that offense. Similar to when Laviano was there