Tewaaraton Finalist

[lorin]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I am anything but a Duke or O’Neill fan, but recognize skill when I see it. That kid has it. I know Duke has played and beaten Virginia twice and also played Notre Dame, Cuse and UNC which are all top 10 type games. Cornell fans haven’t played anything close to the caliber of competition in 3 of those games that I can see. They get their insecure nose out of joint if anyone questions their team instead of responding how many top 5 or top 10 wins/losses they have and against whom.

Well now we are getting somewhere in this discussion... if I assume that UNC and Syracuse are 'top 10 type' games despite having RPIs of 14/21 and poll rankings of 17/18, then it is much easier to see your position on O'Neill being the clear frontrunner.

Scoring Defense, UNC rank 14th Cuse 42nd

Not sure what this has to do with the conversation...the RPI and rankings are the issue.

SU is not a fast break team but not due to lack of ability (which is where I assume lorin is coming from). Gait has them pulling up to set up the half-field offense. Not my idea of exciting lacrosse but when you're a team that needed to rely on every possession, due to low FO %s and/or average clearing #s, it makes sense.

We are talking about the Tewaarton and who goes against better defense O'Neil or Kirst.

[tech37]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I am anything but a Duke or O’Neill fan, but recognize skill when I see it. That kid has it. I know Duke has played and beaten Virginia twice and also played Notre Dame, Cuse and UNC which are all top 10 type games. Cornell fans haven’t played anything close to the caliber of competition in 3 of those games that I can see. They get their insecure nose out of joint if anyone questions their team instead of responding how many top 5 or top 10 wins/losses they have and against whom.

Well now we are getting somewhere in this discussion... if I assume that UNC and Syracuse are 'top 10 type' games despite having RPIs of 14/21 and poll rankings of 17/18, then it is much easier to see your position on O'Neill being the clear frontrunner.

Scoring Defense, UNC rank 14th Cuse 42nd

Not sure what this has to do with the conversation...the RPI and rankings are the issue.

SU is not a fast break team but not due to lack of ability (which is where I assume lorin is coming from). Gait has them pulling up to set up the half-field offense. Not my idea of exciting lacrosse but when you're a team that needed to rely on every possession, due to low FO %s and/or average clearing #s, it makes sense.

We are talking about the Tewaarton and who goes against better defense O'Neil or Kirst.

Yep, my bad, sorry about that.

It will be interesting to see how far these very different players take their teams in Tourney.

[blue angels]

They may be really good, but their players haven't gotten their points against the same caliber of defenses that O' Neill and several others have.

Like Bellarmine, High Point, Air Force and Merrimack?

I am anything but a Duke or O’Neill fan, but recognize skill when I see it. That kid has it. I know Duke has played and beaten Virginia twice and also played Notre Dame, Cuse and UNC which are all top 10 type games. Cornell fans haven’t played anything close to the caliber of competition in 3 of those games that I can see. They get their insecure nose out of joint if anyone questions their team instead of responding how many top 5 or top 10 wins/losses they have and against whom.

Well now we are getting somewhere in this discussion... if I assume that UNC and Syracuse are 'top 10 type' games despite having RPIs of 14/21 and poll rankings of 17/18, then it is much easier to see your position on O'Neill being the clear frontrunner.

Scoring Defense, UNC rank 14th Cuse 42nd

Not sure what this has to do with the conversation...the RPI and rankings are the issue.

SU is not a fast break team but not due to lack of ability (which is where I assume lorin is coming from). Gait has them pulling up to set up the half-field offense. Not my idea of exciting lacrosse but when you're a team that needed to rely on every possession, due to low FO %s and/or average clearing #s, it makes sense.

We are talking about the Tewaarton and who goes against better defense O'Neil or Kirst.

That’s an easy answer, O’Neill and that’s coming from rival fans. The only ones who would argue Kirst are Cornell homers. Nevertheless, in a few weeks we will find out who the better player is. That is a completely different question. My bet is O’Neill and I am no fan.

[joewillie78]

I'm a Cornell homer and I obviously realize that the defenses O'Neil has seen are superior to the ones Kirst has seen SO FAR. That being said, I watched Kirst in his FIRST YEAR last year, in the NCAA tournament put up great numbers against obviously the best teams in the country, helping Cornell get to the NC game.
I have no doubts that CJ15, can score on ANY team and can't wait to watch him do what he does best in a couple of weeks against the best teams in the country.
Gobigred
Joewillie78

[Antonio114]

Some offball man disrespect in this thread. Can Dickson dodge like Shellenberger? No. Could Shellenberger can 56 goals while shooting 57 percent on the season if placed into a more offball role? No! It is not something just anyone can do, especially when you recognize the level of consistency Dickson is at this season. Why did UVA roll with Laviano as a starter even though he was totally useless off the dodge? Because he could do things others on the team could not do. There is a reason teams don't just have there best 6 dodgers out there at the same time and just assume since they are D1 lax players they will be able to catch and finish everything inside with ease or can every open outside shot with ease when the time comes. That doesn't suddenly become the case in the PLL either. Predominantly offball guys find their way on to every roster (Eric Law, Jay Carlson, etc).

It takes a special talent to be a high level offball guy and it is not just about shooting. IQ and knowing when and how to get open are huge parts of it. Could do the same with OKeefe and Ament. OKeefe sure as hell can't dodge and feed like Ament. Would look foolish trying. Ament would look just as foolish trying to mimic everything Okeefe was capable of as an outside shooter/finsher. Long rang sidearm skip passes are not easy, catching those passes underhand and releasing the ball in .2 seconds to anywhere on the goal is not easy either. These are not easy tasks. Dickson deserves some acknowledgement in the Tewwy conversation, just like Okeefe did before him, who also had a shooting percentage in the 50s in that crazy 2019 season. Would rather have Dickson and Shellenberger on my team than two Shellenbergers.

[Finster]

Some offball man disrespect in this thread. Can Dickson dodge like Shellenberger? No. Could Shellenberger can 56 goals while shooting 57 percent on the season if placed into a more offball role? No! It is not something just anyone can do, especially when you recognize the level of consistency Dickson is at this season. Why did UVA roll with Laviano as a starter even though he was totally useless off the dodge? Because he could do things others on the team could not do. There is a reason teams don't just have there best 6 dodgers out there at the same time and just assume since they are D1 lax players they will be able to catch and finish everything inside with ease or can every open outside shot with ease when the time comes. That doesn't suddenly become the case in the PLL either. Predominantly offball guys find their way on to every roster (Eric Law, Jay Carlson, etc).

It takes a special talent to be a high level offball guy and it is not just about shooting. IQ and knowing when and how to get open are huge parts of it. Could do the same with OKeefe and Ament. OKeefe sure as hell can't dodge and feed like Ament. Would look foolish trying. Ament would look just as foolish trying to mimic everything Okeefe was capable of as an outside shooter/finsher. Long rang sidearm skip passes are not easy, catching those passes underhand and releasing the ball in .2 seconds to anywhere on the goal is not easy either. These are not easy tasks. Dickson deserves some acknowledgement in the Tewwy conversation, just like Okeefe did before him, who also had a shooting percentage in the 50s in that crazy 2019 season. Would rather have Dickson and Shellenberger on my team than two Shellenbergers.

^^^ good post

Dickson’s 57% shooting percentage is amazing tbh, given that he’s canned 56 goals. I’m looking at the stats.

One player is above him by .003 point, Ed Shean of Ohio State. Shean has 27 goals to Dickson’s 56. Dickson will overtake Shean is my guess in the next game Dickson plays. His shooting % last 4 games is as follows: 67%, 70%, 80%, 57%.

There are only 3 players above .500. Neither Kirst nor O’Neill are in the top 50, which drops off at .385.

I can’t find any historical record of shooting percentage. But I’d have to assume Dickson’s 57% at his output is one for the record books.

So, he’s deserving of the Tewaaraton imo. Unfortunately they don’t have him in the finalist’s. That’s criminal.

[Gobigred]

Worth checking Terry Foy's Top 20 article at IL: https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... tter/61296

Lot of good opinion mixed in with his discussion of each team. Noteworthy is his discussion on evaluating attackmen on more than goals and assists that's mixed in with #12 Michigan. Maybe blue angels will learn something from it.

[jrn19]

Dickson and Cormier deserve consideration, but if Mac O'Keefe is our example or reference... O'Keefe wasn't the finalist. Ament was. Just in terms of what's probably going to happen, I doubt Dickson's going to be the finalist. Shellenberger will be. And frankly I don't think two guys from one attack unit should be finalists in a 5 person group, aside from the Lyle/Myles year where both won it which was cool IMO.

When Ament left that offense...we saw what happened to O'Keefe's numbers. Twice in fact. He was a great, great player. But he depended a lot more on Ament in terms of his production than Ament did on O'Keefe; even if their relationship in particular was remarkably symbiotic, maybe the most symbiotic of any dynamic duo type attackmen.

I think the discussion of whether offenses put their 6 best dodgers or construction of offenses vs who should win awards are two different things. The Tewaaraton and these awards are about picking the best player. And the best player, in terms of how the game is played right now - doesn't mean forever - is usually the one who commands the attention from the defense in terms of his dodging to open up the rest of the offense for others. They are who the offense is built around and from.

But also, there are differences in this. CJ Kirst doesn't pass like Shellenberger or even O'Neill. He's much more comparable to when Bernhardt won it by just being purely the most dominant dodger and getting a ton of goals off of winning his matchup repeatedly. So there's still variation in picking your choice.

However none of these guys should win it, it should be Gavin Adler.

[MoralTerpitude]

I may have missed it, but has there been mention of Kirst’s groundball and caused turnover numbers? They have been unreal, even exceeding Kavanagh. He has also increased his numbers across the board in these last two crucial games: 9G 6A 8GB 5CT.

The tournament will ultimately decide it.

[blue angels]

Worth checking Terry Foy's Top 20 article at IL: https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... tter/61296

Lot of good opinion mixed in with his discussion of each team. Noteworthy is his discussion on evaluating attackmen on more than goals and assists that's mixed in with #12 Michigan. Maybe blue angels will learn something from it.

Thanks but I have learned to ignore myopic homer fans posts. You Cornell guys are worse than the Rutgers fans. As I have stated, I have no idea where Kirst stacks up against O’Neil, Shellenberger, etc, because he hasn’t played against the same defenses. We will find out soon enough. Maybe, he’s the best. Maybe he isn’t.

[PALax11]

O'Neil has been consistently the guy in big games, scoring in big moments, against top teams. He passes the eye test, plain and simple. I have watched him in key moments split right, roll left and sting corners like he's practicing on an open net... he just doesn't appear phased at all. His combination size and skill is just impressive. And I'm not sure there's a lot, defenders or goalies, can do about it.

[rolldodge]

Dickson and Cormier deserve consideration, but if Mac O'Keefe is our example or reference... O'Keefe wasn't the finalist. Ament was. Just in terms of what's probably going to happen, I doubt Dickson's going to be the finalist. Shellenberger will be. And frankly I don't think two guys from one attack unit should be finalists in a 5 person group, aside from the Lyle/Myles year where both won it which was cool IMO.

When Ament left that offense...we saw what happened to O'Keefe's numbers. Twice in fact. He was a great, great player. But he depended a lot more on Ament in terms of his production than Ament did on O'Keefe; even if their relationship in particular was remarkably symbiotic, maybe the most symbiotic of any dynamic duo type attackmen.

I think the discussion of whether offenses put their 6 best dodgers or construction of offenses vs who should win awards are two different things. The Tewaaraton and these awards are about picking the best player. And the best player, in terms of how the game is played right now - doesn't mean forever - is usually the one who commands the attention from the defense in terms of his dodging to open up the rest of the offense for others. They are who the offense is built around and from.

But also, there are differences in this. CJ Kirst doesn't pass like Shellenberger or even O'Neill. He's much more comparable to when Bernhardt won it by just being purely the most dominant dodger and getting a ton of goals off of winning his matchup repeatedly. So there's still variation in picking your choice.

However none of these guys should win it, it should be Gavin Adler.

If Brodie Merrill didn't win the Tewaaraton, no defenseman will.

[jrn19]

Nope probably not, but I’m gonna shout it until they announce someone else!

[Lager]

I don't know why it's simply assumed that O'neill has played much better defenses than kirst. Did Duke not squeak past
a fairly mediocre Penn team? Not really sure why it's assumed that the ACC is far and away the best conference this year.

[Lager]

Also, did uva not lose to a lackluster Maryland team? Or UNC lose to a poor Ohio state team? ACC may be the best conference but in my eyes it's not set in stone

[UVAlaxfan]

LOL you will find out when there are three acc teams in the final four.

[10stone5]

That may happen, those three ACCs are odds on favorites, then again it may not - there are three very good B1G teams, one very good Ivy team, and another Big East team who is playing very good right now — who the three ACCs will have to beat out.
None of the three ACCs are Maryland 2022.

[Gobigred]

LOL you will find out when there are three acc teams in the final four.

That would be three more than last year.

[CU88a]

Worth checking Terry Foy's Top 20 article at IL: https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/ ... tter/61296

Interesting:

Michael Boehm finished the 2022 season No. 28 in scoring at 4.2 points per game. He finished the 2022 season No. 8 in IL’s Fantasy points because in 15 games, he picked up 31 groundballs, caused 12 turnovers and only turned the ball over 19 times. Pat Kavanagh was far-and-away No. 1 by IL’s fantasy scoring system, and that matches everyone’s eye test — he was (and is) a terror on the ride.

For what it’s worth, here are the top five scorers right now:

Fantasy PPG Total Fantasy Points
1 CJ Kirst Cornell 27.69 360
2 Pat Kavanagh Notre Dame 24.64 271
3 Xander Dickson Virginia 22.07 309
4 Brayden Mayea High Point 21.27 319
5 Coulter Mackesy Princeton 20.92 251

[wgdsr]

I don't know why it's simply assumed that O'neill has played much better defenses than kirst. Did Duke not squeak past
a fairly mediocre Penn team? Not really sure why it's assumed that the ACC is far and away the best conference this year.

Also, did uva not lose to a lackluster Maryland team? Or UNC lose to a poor Ohio state team? ACC may be the best conference but in my eyes it's not set in stone

so you're saying the ivy maybe wasn't the best conference last year after all?